Superman (Pre-Crisis) thread

[Elizio33]

Alright, following the Anti-Monitor thread, I noticed that most of the reasoning behind Pre-Crisis Superman's level was a little weird and should be revised and cleaned up a bit with his more consistent feats. But first, I want to address some fears that I found confusing.

This is taken directly from the Superman (Pre-Crisis) profile:

• "Comparable to Harbinger's clone who merged Earth-X, Earth-4 and Earth-S into the Netherverse to save them from the Anti-Matter Wave and mortally wounded an extremely weakened Monitor."

Where it was said that Superman (Pre-Crisis) is comparable to Harbinger's clone? It was never really stated anywhere and should probably be removed unless proven otherwise.

• "Comparable to other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians such as Supergirl and Superboy-Prime."

Fair enough, so nothing to say about that, although the Retcon Punch is a Superboy-Prime exclusive ability that shouldn't necessarily be used to scale characters. The Retcon Punch appears in Superboy-Prime's Attack Potency.

• "Repeatedly manage to harm Maaldor the Darklord, who turned himself into an entire universe upon becoming mad and in a later story he defeat him in his abstract form."

Although Pre-Crisis Superman battled Maaldor, this Maaldor is not the same one that threatened to destroy the many surrounding realities, and it has in fact been stated that Maaldor's power and madness have increased since he turned into a living universe. Personally, I see this as a Low 2-C or 2-C feat, 2-A seems a bit iffy and could be an outlier or just inconsistent.

• "Pushed himself toward the center of the big bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it."

This feat seems fine to me at least.

• "Comparable to the original Captain Marvel, who defeated the Invincible Man."

This seems fine to me.

Now, regarding the 2-A feats he has:

• "Generated enough power to restore all future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper in his clash with Jaxon."

Superman didn't generate power to restore future timelines alone, it was Superman and Jaxon who both generated power to restore them in their fight.

• "Manage to lobotomize Maaldor with great effort, who at that point had grown so large that he was threatening all existence."

This feat seems uncertain as I said above.

Based on what I see in the Superman (Pre-Crisis) profile, I suggest the following Attack Potency:

Low Multiverse level (Comparable to Supergirl and Superboy-Prime. Pushed himself toward the center of the big bang and destroyed a structure that was withstanding it. Comparable to the original Captain Marvel, who defeated the Invincible Man)

Or

We downgrade Pre-Crisis Superman to Universe level+ based on the big bang feat and being comparable to Supergirl and Superboy-Prime.

P.S. Sorry for the poor quality of this thread, I was lazy and a little tired when I made this thread. :/

 

[ByAsura]

Superman didn't generate power to restore future timelines alone, it was Superman and Jaxon who both generated power to restore them in their fight.

This wouldn't matter at all.

2-A / 2 is still 2-A.

 

[Elizio33]

This wouldn't matter at all.

2-A / 2 is still 2-A.

Can we consider this as a qualifying feat for attack potency (combat applicable), as the result of their fight was restoring the destroyed timelines?

 

[ByAsura]

I'm pretty sure it would. The power generated by the fight countered it.

 

[Thelastmlg]

As he said, the energy of their clash countered the same energy used to destroy the timelines, so this is probably one of the best examples of AP =/= DC and yet 2-A

 

[Stefano4444]

Where it was said that Superman (Pre-Crisis) is comparable to Harbinger's clone? It was never really stated anywhere and should probably be removed unless proven otherwise.

While neither characters where directly stated/show to be comparable, Superman should still logically scale to her.

As Superman scale to Supergirl, who fought and nearly defeated Base Anti-Monitor, who scale to a Full Power Monitor, the same Monitor (who was stated to have been weakened by the destruction of the positive matter universes) who grant the same power boost to the Harbinger's clone which allow her to perform her 2-C feat as well as killing him (who also performed another 2-C feat while he was dying).

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

Isn’t the Superman and Jaxxon fight actually Low 2-C, they restored Earth Ones future timlines, I think Post Flashpoint Brianiac has a similar statement where he threatened to destroy Prime Earths potential futures.

 

[ByAsura]

He bottled timelines individually.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Where it was said that Superman (Pre-Crisis) is comparable to Harbinger's clone? It was never really stated anywhere and should probably be removed unless proven otherwise.

I reread through COIE and couldn't a statement for this, so fair enough.

Although Pre-Crisis Superman battled Maaldor, this Maaldor is not the same one that threatened to destroy the many surrounding realities, and it has in fact been stated that Maaldor's power and madness have increased since he turned into a living universe. Personally, I see this as a Low 2-C or 2-C feat, 2-A seems a bit iffy and could be an outlier or just inconsistent.

Do you have scans and references for this?

Superman didn't generate power to restore future timelines alone, it was Superman and Jaxon who both generated power to restore them in their fight.

Infinity divide by 2 is still Infinity.

I still agree with removing possibly 2-A considering it's the only 2-A feat we have barring the the Anti-Monitor's 2-A stuff, which likely makes it an outlier, and what supports it more is that the events of COIE kinda show that the scale of destruction seen in COIE pretty much show that no being prior has showed this level of power.

I disagree with the Low 2-C downgrade though, we still have the Monitor's 2-C feat to use, as he did this upon his death. And considering that the Monitor granted Harbinger her powers, I think he should scale to her. A Monitor in his prime was able to stalemate Anti-Monitor, who characters like Supergirl already scale to.

In conclusion, they should stay at 2-C, but the justification for it should be altered, and I agree with the removal of possibly 2-A.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This wouldn't matter at all.

2-A / 2 is still 2-A.

Lmao Boomstick said it himself.

 

[Deagonx]

did we implement the Anti-Monitor changes yet?

 

[Elizio33]

While neither characters where directly stated/show to be comparable, Superman should still logically scale to her.

As Superman scale to Supergirl, who fought and nearly defeated Base Anti-Monitor, who scale to a Full Power Monitor, the same Monitor (who was stated to have been weakened by the destruction of the positive matter universes) who grant the same power boost to the Harbinger's clone which allow her to perform her 2-C feat as well as killing him (who also performed another 2-C feat while he was dying).

Thing is, Supergirl didn't fought the Anti-Monitor directly. She caught him off guard as he was about to kill Superman and the Anti-Monitor blasted her to death right after she assaulted him, then had to retreat.

 

[Stefano4444]

Thing is, Supergirl didn't fought the Anti-Monitor directly. She caught him off guard as he was about to kill Superman and the Anti-Monitor blasted her to death right after she assaulted him, then had to retreat.

Are you sure it was Supergirl who caught off guard AM? It was AM who caughted Superman off guard and he was about to finish him when Supergirl intervened.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

did we implement the Anti-Monitor changes yet?

Nope.

 

[Deagonx]

Nope.

We should probably take care of that first

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

We should probably take care of that first

Agreed

Thing is, Supergirl didn't fought the Anti-Monitor directly. She caught him off guard as he was about to kill Superman and the Anti-Monitor blasted her to death right after she assaulted him, then had to retreat.

Catching someone offguard doesn't make their durability drop insanely low. Plus even after Supergirl jumped him and the Anti-Moonitor regained composure, her and the Anti-Monitor were still fighting.

He only killed her when in his unarmored state, which has been shown repeatedly to be stronger than his regular armored self.

 

[Stefano4444]

I taken a quick look at the issue where Supergirl fought AM.

The fight start with AM attacking Superman from the shadow, going on the offensive as Superman is not capable to defend himself while Doctor Light unsuccessfully try to stop him, before he can kill him Supergirl come and attack him, AM its able to hit her back and he tried to finish off Superman only for be stopped by Supergirl one again, where she its able to shatter a good chuck of his armor.

Then he get mad and unleash his full strength and Supergirl flying to him and make him crash to his machine, both are lock in battle and the way the comic potray it seen like it can go either way (as AM's body get fully destroyed while Supergirl its dying due of the antimatter), only to be distracted by Doctor Light, where AM take advantage and use it to quickly kill her, then he escape as it was too danger to keep fighting in his conditions.

 

[Deagonx]

Catching someone offguard doesn't make their durability drop insanely low.

I mean, it certainly can. Isn't that the going explanation for Goku getting hit by a laser from one of Frieza's generic henchmen?

He only killed her when in his unarmored state, which has been shown repeatedly to be stronger than his regular armored self.

Is that true? When his armor gets damaged he says he can feel his energies waning. I haven't seen any indication that the armor limits his power.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I mean, it certainly can. Isn't that the going explanation for Goku getting hit by a laser from one of Frieza's generic henchmen?

It varies, in the case of Goku, they're durability can explicitly go down if they are off guard. It's an inverse mechanic. You need proof if the Anti-Monitor has a similar thing going on.

Is that true? When his armor gets damaged he says he can feel his energies waning. I haven't seen any indication that the armor limits his power.

In an alt history, Anti-Monitor instantly one shots multiple heroes when his armor is broken, mind you, these heroes were damaging him just fine prior. The Flash (1987) #150.

Context is here is that due to Barry dying before COIE, it creates an alternate history where Anti-Monitor won due to Flash being unable to intervene and destroy the cannon. Here Wally gives his energy to the heroes to help them get stronger and take down the Anti-Monitor, after the his armor his shattered by Wally, he instantly kills all of the heroes with one blast.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm wondering how much of that is just due to urgency? When he has his armor broken by Supergirl he says:

"I feel my energies waning! Thus I can wait no longer. You are dead!"

So it seems as though he goes all out once his armor is broken because he can't afford to fight slowly or hold back.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I'm wondering how much of that is just due to urgency? When he has his armor broken by Supergirl he says:

"I feel my energies waning! Thus I can wait no longer. You are dead!"

So it seems as though he goes all out once his armor is broken because he can't afford to fight slowly or hold back.

I suppose that's fair?

He is still capable of stalemating the Monitor in his armored state however. And the Monitor granted Harbinger her powers while weak and performed his merging of Earth 1 and 2 while he was dying.

 

[Deagonx]

He is still capable of stalemating the Monitor in his armored state however. And the Monitor granted Harbinger her powers while weak and performed his merging of Earth 1 and 2 while he was dying.

Yeah, perhaps I am confused on what the point of contention is.

 

[Elizio33]

Bump.

 

[Elizio33]

I know this comes out of nowhere, but can I offer any suggestions to fix this? These are only suggestions and do not hesitate to share your impressions.

Option 1: We give Pre-Crisis Superman a variable tier based on the fact that many of his feats caps at tier 4 to 2. "Varies from 4-B to 2-C to possibly 2-A"

Option 2: We consider Superman restoring infinite future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper during his confrontation with Jaxon as inconsistent with the other feats he has which caps at tier 4-B to 2-C, therefore we remove the "possibly 2-A" tier and leave Pre-Crisis Superman and those who scale to him to tier 2-C.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Option 1: We give Pre-Crisis Superman a variable tier based on the fact that many of his feats caps at tier 4 to 2. "Varies from 4-B to 2-C to possibly 2-A"

I mean you need proof he actually Varies like his PC counterpart, and we'd also have to take into account how this affect the rest of the verse.

I say we go with Option 2.

 

[Elizio33]

I mean you need proof he actually Varies like his PC counterpart, and we'd also have to take into account how this affect the rest of the verse.

I was more talking about PC Superman and the option 1 is mostly based on the feats he possesses. Here are some notable feats taken from his profile.

Tier 3 Feats:

• He was hit with the power of 100 Galaxies and was only slightly surprised.
  
• He has endured the gravity and weight of heavy-mass galaxies.

Tier 4 Feats:

• He has picked up and thrown neutron stars.
• A sneeze from PC Superman destroyed an entire solar system.
• PC Superman was so powerful that he could easily move a star with just his breath.
• He easily threw a neutron star several light years away. He claimed that the star weighed Trillions of tons and that it exerted a magnetic pull greater then dozens of Supernovas, but this didn’t affect him in the slightest.
• A Supernova only dazed Superman for a microsecond. He then found himself in an unknown solar system and proceeded to drill his way to the center of a planet.

The tier 2 feats are already on his Attack Potency and considering that the combined strength of PC Superman and fifty other heroes was just strong enough to decimate a solar system during COIE, that's why I was proposing a variable tier for PC Superman, he has a lot of tier 4 feats and solid tier 2 feats as well. But I think option 2 might be better as you said.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Tier 3 Feats:

• He was hit with the power of 100 Galaxies and was only slightly surprised.
• He has endured the gravity and weight of heavy-mass galaxies.

Tier 4 Feats:

• He has picked up and thrown neutron stars.
• A sneeze from PC Superman destroyed an entire solar system.
• PC Superman was so powerful that he could easily move a star with just his breath.
• He easily threw a neutron star several light years away. He claimed that the star weighed Trillions of tons and that it exerted a magnetic pull greater then dozens of Supernovas, but this didn’t affect him in the slightest.
• A Supernova only dazed Superman for a microsecond. He then found himself in an unknown solar system and proceeded to drill his way to the center of a planet.

I don't think of those are Anti-feats tbh.

the combined strength of PC Superman and fifty other heroes was just strong enough to decimate a solar system during COIE

I think this is more just a inconsistency within COIE when other characters other than Superman possess feats in Tier 3 to 2.

A solid rating is fine.

 

[Deagonx]

Option 2 seems fine

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I have another proposal, and it's that 2-A should only scale to Superman.

Jaxon is implied to be Superman's strongest opponent at the time, and in Superman: The Ultimate Guide, it apparently states that which says his whole career, his powers have fluctuated and mentions psychological distress as an image. The book mentions his Pre-Crisis stuff so it would likely apply to Pre-Crisis Supes as well. Considering this is Superman's strongest battle yet, it would mean that he would likely be much more stressed under this scenario.

A similar example of Superman being able to shatter the bond of space, time and Infinity, Spectre mentions that Superman was moving faster than he had ever had before because he was chasing after Kara. He was also going to destroy heaven but idk how quantifiable this is, since idk where Heaven sits in Pre-Crisis cosmology.

In conclusion, possibly 2-A is removed from everyone and only Superman would get "2-C, 2-A at his peak". That's an alternative I suppose.

 

[LuciferX]

Superman shouldn't given 2-A at his peak imo or even 2-C.

For Time Trapper thing, gl power rings didn't wipe all timelines through it's own power, it was because trapper setted up things which caused rings to enter time dimension thus happened it. you might say it's because of rings' power but it seems very unlikely to happen through by them directly, what's been implied that it was happened due to some plot devices, it lacks context on how it wiped out timelines, and the reason why all of them restored afterwards. Also Jaxon and Superman's fight was around city level. I'm aware DC=/=AP but it seems highly unlikely them to be in Tier 2, specially superman, if we exclude time trapper.

My point is we don't know about the things which trapper arranged before and how it affects that feat. Superman once admitted he can't change history or rewrite timelines. This is the best superman can do I can do is give it my best...

I think it's very inconsistent give Tier 2-A for superman, we can't take a statement at face value ignoring the context. I could interprete it another way as I explained above though you can simply ignore this calling it as a headcanon. 2-A is too much.

 

[Deagonx]

Option 2: We consider Superman restoring infinite future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper during his confrontation with Jaxon as inconsistent with the other feats he has which caps at tier 4-B to 2-C, therefore we remove the "possibly 2-A" tier and leave Pre-Crisis Superman and those who scale to him to tier 2-C.

I am still inclined towards this solution.

 

[ByAsura]

Does 'arranged things' mean manipulating the timelines so that the event would occur in the first place, or that he weakened the timelines' fabric somehow?

The rest of that is just totally irrelevant. And I'm pretty sure Superman was in a period where he began to weaken heavily (Sand Superman, being past his prime, etc) during that Earth feat.

 

[ByAsura]

Yeah, it was.

From what I can find, Superman was heavily weakened between 1971 and 1984 due to Bronze Age buffoonery. The scan you have is from a 1978 comic.

Edit: He was also blasted by red solar energy prior to this.

 

[LuciferX]

Does 'arranged things' mean manipulating the timelines so that the event would occur in the first place, or that he weakened the timelines' fabric somehow?

Pretty much. It lacks context on how it happened. I'm sure there's some unexplained context behind it on how it caused for the erasure of timelines.

 

[ByAsura]

Now that I'm looking, the Jaxon stuff is also from 1978.

So, I don't think it makes sense for that era.

But, inconsistency is still a thing, I guess. So maybe someone can argue that.

 

[Deagonx]

I tend to also regard that feat as not being indicative of power in that sense, as timelines can be weird that way. I do not get the impression from reading the comic that the best way to interpret the feat is the raw destruction of universes, but a collapsing of variations in time, which can be achieved through non-AP related means.

 

[ByAsura]

The Big Bang stuff is from earlier in 1984. So I don't know how the **** to treat this.

 

[Deagonx]

The Big Bang stuff is from earlier in 1984. So I don't know how the **** to treat this.

What do you think of this:

Option 2: We consider Superman restoring infinite future timelines wiped out by the Time Trapper during his confrontation with Jaxon as inconsistent with the other feats he has which caps at tier 4-B to 2-C, therefore we remove the "possibly 2-A" tier and leave Pre-Crisis Superman and those who scale to him to tier 2-C.

 

[LuciferX]

I tend to also regard that feat as not being indicative of power in that sense, as timelines can be weird that way. I do not get the impression from reading the comic that the best way to interpret the feat is the raw destruction of universes, but a collapsing of variations in time, which can be achieved through non-AP related means.

Exactly.

 

[ByAsura]

Maybe.

I need to look into some stuff.