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The Presence quick additions

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ABoogieYesSir

ABoogieYesSir

They/Them
6,164
239
Fate Manipulation: Decides what will happen: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111238764/4853985-lucifer_68_p14-1.jpg

Probability Manipulation: Decided every variable and every law, and everything that happens only happens because he so wishes: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111238764/4853991-lucifer_69_p06.jpg

Resistance to Death Manipulation, Madness Manipulation, Willpower Manipulation, Fear Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Destruction and Dream Manipulation: Transcends The Endless, who are the embodiments of the previously mentioned concepts.
 
No. Sorry. I do not have the time.
 
Are you willing to ask some other staff members to help out with this instead?
 
Boogie asked me to do the editing here, so whenever you can unlock the page I'll add them real quick.

Looks fine to me too btw
 
Okay. Thanks. I will close this thread then.
 
The Presence doesnt transcend the concepts that the Endless represents. The concepts that the Endless represent are much older than the Presence. The Presence admitted that he was shaped by dreams (Confirmed by Mike Carey) and Death has stated that she has she has claimed Creations and other Creators and creatures like the Silk Man who were not shaped by the Presence. Though the Endless are likely to be weaker than the Presence, the concept that they represent are much more primal than all gods which includes the Presence.

Also, we should remove the statement about being above Father Time and Night since thats pure headcanon. If anything, Mother Night and Father Time are likely above the Presence given that the Presence was created by dreams while Mother Night and Father Time are the ones who made possible for dreams to happen. This has been agreed to be case in the past, dont know why its still in the profile.
 
Since the Presence/Monitor-Mind/Source are going to be merged, isn't it logical to assume he does transcend them? I don't think any of the concepts are more primal than the blank page.

> that the Presence was created by dreams

I thought he was shaped by them? Or is this a different quote?
 
>Since the Presence/Monitor-Mind/Source are going to be merged, isn't it logical to assume he does transcend them? I don't think any of the concepts are more primal than the blank page.

The Vertigo/Lucifer Presence doesnt. This why I said that The Presence is profile should have multiple keys/ a note, different writers often have different interpretation of him. Writers who use the Presence often ignore previous portrayals like how the events of Lucifer seems to have no effect outside of that series and now it seems that the new Lucifer series completely ignores the Mike Carey Lucifer

>I thought he was shaped by them? Or is this a different quote?

Yes, It was said that he was shaped by Dreams. Someone asked Mike on twitter about that and Mike Carey said read the Dreams of a Thousand Cats, how humans/sentient creatures make their own gods. The Presence is also not the first God, The Jin En Moks (Gods from the Void who are older than the Presence but got stuck in Creation) said that after the Presence is gone there will be more Makers far more worthy. There are also different versions of Creation each with their own God/Maker.
 
Fair enough regarding the multiple keys. Should probably have a tabber in the Powers and Abilities section in that case.

Shaped by dreams, sure. I mean, he appears human, and performs human mannerisms and such. But the Presence existed before the mainline DC multiverse, so are you saying he was created by the dreams of other creations floating elsewhere in the Void?
 
Nope, dreams retroactively shape Creation. It was explained that dreams change even the origin of Creation itself. There's even a place in the Dreaming where all the origin stories of Creation are stored.
 
So why are the top three Endless even considered below the Presence then? This sounds like it should be a major revision topic, no?
 
I think Father Time and Mother Night should be above the Presence. I think Death should be above Destiny. As for why the Endless (or more specifically Dream) arent above The Presence.

"He is not a god; he is older than all the gods, and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories: an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters"

.- The Sandman: Book of Dreams

Dream basically shapes everything including himself and the other Endless.


I believe Dream should be 1-A though, Dream has shown that he can drag dreams into reality and overwrite creation. He still need hundreds of dreamers but he's still the one who drags out their dreams to overwrite reality (This seems to strain him heavily though and is not something he can usually do)
 
I can get behind those revisions. Are you planning a revision for the Endless in the future? I'm certain you're the most suited to handle it.
 
What about the comment from Dream that Lucifer is far more powerful than himself?
 
Antvasima said:
What about the comment from Dream that Lucifer is far more powerful than himself?
Click to expand...
He Dream doesnt have full control of the concept he represents but he does have a high degree of control over it. We saw him drag the dreams of hundreds of dreamers into reality and overwrite Creation. Its not something he can or would usually do.

Theres also this quote from the Sandman: Book of Dreams on why Dream seems to appear more powerful than all gods but is also weaker.

"He is not a god; he is older than all the gods, and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories: an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters"

.- The Sandman: Book of Dreams
 
Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense.
 
I've got a question related to the Jin En Mok.

Cestis' profile has a scan of one of the Moks, Berim, holding off the gates to The Void https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/567787356346777610/597818191695183872/RCO005_1469046165.jpg), what makes it interesting is that Lucifer early in the comic made it so that anyone who tried to close the gates yet Berim was able to hold them off from closing (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...6718379019/Screenshot_2019-07-08-11-57-33.png).

So my question is if the Jin En Mok are relative in power to Lucifer?
 
The Jin En Moks, while trapped inside Creation are not that powerful.

Also, I dont believe that spell is still in effect at that point . Lucifer tore the Letter of Passage creating an infinite amount of gates which that he can open anywhere.

Their true forms are another story though. I believe they could be higher than 1-B, maybe even 1-A. It was stated that Cestis regaining her true form would destroy Creation as a side effect, she also said that the Jin En Moks originally float in the Void, bigger than worlds and are unstuck by space, time and causality.

Well, lets get back to the topic. The resistances should be removed again, its possible that he does have them but not for the reason given here.
 
You know if it helps your argument of The Endless being older (especially Dream, Destiny and Death) then all gods, there's quite a few statements that say The Endless have no beginning or end, and where as gods will fade away and die The Endless will remain untill the death of time
 
Sandman31 said:
Well, lets get back to the topic. The resistances should be removed again, its possible that he does have them but not for the reason given here.
Click to expand...
Should I unlock the page for you to edit then?
 
The Problem with the Logic being used here is this:

Dreams shaping the Presence doesn't mean they created him at all, all it means is that they gave him form. This is solely referring to the fact that every race in creation views god as something different (ex. Monitors view the Monitor Mind as God, New Gods the Source, Angels The Presence).

Different origins on the history of creation means literally nothing, yes, dreams do apply to creation, but not every dream does, they either need to be channeled by dream for it to be a miniscule amount (like in overture) or it needs to be at the very least hundreds of thousands afaik. But one's perception of course changes.

Time itself was given form by The Presence, if there weren't any creations, of course time can't exist as it would be void only. there are creations which predate yahweh's but not ones which predate Yahweh himself. And considering that the presence we see is merely an aspect and that the presence is the void itself anyway I don't see any argument being made here.
 
Youre trying to mix different interpretation of the Presence. I was only referring to Vertigo/Sandman storyline Presence. Presence being part of the void is in DeMatteis/Morrison cosmology

1) no thats not the case. Thats not how dreams work. Mike Carey said to look at Dreams of a thousand cats. Dreams creates gods. We know this works because this was what the Titan brothers did to usurp yahwehs throne.

Time itself was given form by The Presence, if there weren't any creations, of course time can't exist as it would be void only. there are creations which predate yahweh's but not ones which predate Yahweh himself. And considering that the presence we see is merely an aspect and that the presence is the void itself anyway I don't see any argument being made here.

Cestis explicitly stated that she and the first cosmos she came from existed evem before Yahweh himself. So no to this as well. We also know that hes not the only god, that there other Creators before him. An example was Silk Man who is not made by the Presence
 
"1) no thats not the case. Thats not how dreams work. Mike Carey said to look at Dreams of a thousand cats. Dreams creates gods. We know this works because this was what the Titan brothers did to usurp yahwehs throne."

Presence literally uses the term shaped and Carey said they gave him form, that's literally because God was and still is completely a formless entity but its given form by the perceptions of beings. I don't really need to delve into this due to how obvious it is, this is literally why we see the presence called allah in sandman and was stated to give domain over all of creation.

He isn't the only god in the entire void if we look at carey's view only, but silkman's creation doesn't predate yahweh himself, just his creation. And doesn't carey believe that the presence was formed in the void? Because if thats the case then you can't even predate him to begin with.
 
Presence literally uses the term shaped and Carey said they gave him form, that's literally because God was and still is completely a formless entity but its given form by the perceptions of beings

No, Mike Carey pointed to the Dreams of a Thousand Cats, citing the power of dream as the one responsible. Carey said that we sentient creatures make gods in our own image. And this is what dreams do

"He is not a god; he is older than all the gods, and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories: an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters"

.- The Sandman: Book of Dreams

>I don't really need to delve into this due to how obvious it is, this is literally why we see the presence called allah in sandman and was stated to give domain over all of creation.

Uh, yeah, its obvious. The reason why hes allah is because the Presence is the God of the abrahamic religion. Allah is just what the muslims call god

>He isn't the only god in the entire void if we look at carey's view only, but silkman's creation doesn't predate yahweh himself, just his creation.

Silk Man reality doesnt say that it was older than yahwehs but it supports that there were other God than yahweh. Cestis explicitly said that the creation where she came from existed before God
 
" Carey said that we sentient creatures make gods in our own image. And this is what dreams do"

Exactly, we make aspects of God, not god himself. I can literally give you a dozen examples of this being the case in vertigo (MMH viewing God as H'ronmeer, the whole allah thing, etc.)

The problem with that quote is there is a clear difference between normal gods and God with a capital G.

Exactly, there are multiple different views of God within every religion and each are SHAPED by dreams. the idea of a single all powerful God doesn't change at all.

There are other creators yes, as I said, I was speaking in a general viewpoint beyond carey's, I want the scan for the cestis statement btw
 
>Exactly, we make aspects of God, not god himself. I can literally give you a dozen examples of this being the case in vertigo (MMH viewing God as H'ronmeer, the whole allah thing, etc.)

Mike Carey clearly said that we make gods not an aspect of it. Belief create deities. The presence is not an exception to this rule. The reason why the titan brothers were almost able to usurp the Presence place in the universe was because they traveled back in time and reenacted the miracles in the bible. Redirecting the belief of the current believers to themselves. Dreams and belief create gods, the presence is no exception. The titan brothers almost replaced the Presence but were stopped by Lucifer before its too late

>Exactly, we make aspects of God, not god himself. I can literally give you a dozen examples of this being the case in vertigo (MMH viewing God as H'ronmeer, the whole allah thing, etc.)

We only know that Morpheus is a member of the Martian pantheon, we have no solid evidence whether H'ronmeer is Death or God within the Sandman story lines. This doesnt really have anything to do with dreams. We know the relationship between dreams and gods, dreams create gods, recreate creation etc. What youre trying to say is that the Presence is an exception to this rule, or the rule somehow works differently on the Presence without offering evidences on why while there are many evidences against it. The Presence being known by other names doesnt disprove it.

Youre making things more complicated than they are.


>The problem with that quote is there is a clear difference between normal gods and God with a capital G.

The Presence is a god. I dont know what you mean by "normal gods", the only difference is that hes the dominant one. Mike Carey also said we make our "own gods" no capital G there but hes also referring to the Presence . What word do you want him to use? gods and God? gods is completely appropriate because it is the plural for deities/a god, the Presence is a god.
 
calm down you typed this shit in like 3 minutes lol

but yes you don't have to address anything other than the shaping part as I didn't realize it was just carey's view

He's the god of death, hes still a god but not dream himself regardless, As i explained, the moment you have different beliefs you shape a new aspect of God, I.e if god came down on the spectre it would be the presence, but if it came to some muslim it would be allah, each person's view on what god is creates a new aspect shaped by their own will, but the truth is God is God, its essentially just a mask he wears. Because we know literally nobody in vertigo actually percieved god's true form- as its shaped by their own perceptions.

Hes the God in the multiverse, theres a difference between him and darkseid when you use the term God, and yes, we make our own aspects of God, not entirely different Gods. and No, I don't want him to use it because he isn't referring to the presence in the first place. Its like a christian saying "the christian god is a god"
 
This whole argument seems like it stems from the inconsistency caused by applying Mike Carey's personal views on the Presence and Creation to all of DC as a whole. Why not just do what we were already planning on and make multiple keys for DC's God profile?

You can apply this to his bowler hat key. Upgrade Night and Time's profile justifications to make it clear they're above that key like you wanted above. And have another key(s) on the Presence's profile that are more powerful than Night and Time.
 
I am still in disagreements with time and night being above the presence regardless.

Monopoly Man Presence > All of the endless imo
 
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