DC Comics: Reviewing Exotic Haxes

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Also, really, if the issue is that he may or may not be killing people on a conceptual level with each blast then just make that clear. People have this weird idea that because it's power it must be offensive else it isn't a power.

If you’re addressing me then I’m basing Captain Atom getting conceptual manipulation due to various reason and offensive power makes it easier to make the case. The major premise of this argument would stem down to if we can accept those things including the Quantum Field could be accepted as conceptual. If so, then the argument makes it so much easier and I would agree to that notion.

I do believe we don’t need to make the case that all his powers are meant to be conceptual base. However, we do need some ground basis that his powers do at least correlate with the field so when he create, shapes, alter that then can we validate that it’s conceptual based.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I'll respond later

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah if the speed force and Quantum Field are treated as similar in terms of how they function and the speed force is literally the governing force of motion itself, I don’t really see why this isn’t concept hax, this looks pretty clear cut to me.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

What are the votes for conceptual manipulation? Deagon and Ant are aganist it but Emp, Planck, and Glass voted for it. So doesn’t that mean majority rules?

 

[Theglassman12]

So far it’s in favor but we need some more staff input.

@Maverick_Zero_X @Dereck03 @Elizhaa any input on conceptual hax for quantum field would be appreciated

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity

 

[Deagonx]

In New Gods: Godhead Vol 1 1, The Emotional Spectrum has been stated by Highfather to be the Life Equation, which is consistent with Nekron being stated to be the Anti-Life Equation, from Tales From the Dark Multiverse: Blackest Night

This is incorrect, and they realize it later in the comic.

'Beyond the source wall is the reservoir of emotional energy, filled by the living beings of this universe. This is the power that keeps our universe running. But it is not the Source. Also contained on the other side of the source wall were the instructions for how our universe was constructed. The life equation. If you change the equation, you change reality.'

The White Lantern is the only one that can use the Life Equation, and he should have reality manip for it, but the actual individual lanterns themselves are just drawing from a reservoir of emotional energy. They gathered the rings thinking it was the Life Equation but they failed. Later, the two are explicitly distinguished by Highfather.

'You nearly drove this universe to extinction with your use of the emotional spectrum. And now you would try to control the Life Equation?'

which is consistent with Nekron being stated to be the Anti-Life Equation, from Tales From the Dark Multiverse: Blackest Night

Darkseid is just saying Nekron successfully eliminated free will.

As stated by Thawne, the Speed Force is time itself throughout all of existence. As he states in The Flash (2010) #12: "The Speed Force is tied to so many things when you pull back the electrical curtain and see for what it is: Time. All of time. Existence moving through reality. Kinetic energy. Temporal energy. A storm of intelligence and experience that can connect me to everything and everyone."

Wouldn't that just be time manip? I'm not sure why that'd be concept manip. Though I also thing giving all Speedsters time manipulation would be a stretch.

In conclusion, both the Speed Force and the Emotional Spectrum are fundamental parts of reality. The destruction of the Emotional Spectrum would lead to the universe returning to a void, and the destruction/destabilization of the Speed Force, would lead to reality crumbling. Even affecting either of them is shown to have a significant impact on reality itself

Sure I can agree to that, I am just not persuaded of these things being concepts. Especially since the emotional spectrum is literally just emotional energy in a reservoir outside the source wall. The Lanterns aren't channeling the concept of the emotion they are correlated with, they are using emotional energy.

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of you think about Deagonx's arguments above?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I haven't had time to reply yet, I got busy.

 

[Robo432343]

Could someone ping Confluctor? I'm pretty sure he was the one who got limited Concept manip accepted on Captain Atoms profile

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Confluctor isn't an active wiki member anymore

 

[Antvasima]

Could someone ping Confluctor? I'm pretty sure he was the one who got limited Concept manip accepted on Captain Atoms profile

@Confluctor

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

What do the rest of you think about Deagonx's arguments above?

I support the Quantum Field being conceptual, and Captain Atom gaining full on conceptual manipulation since he can manipulate the field in its entirety, but I'm strongly against limited conceptual manipulation for Speedsters and Lanterns.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I support the Quantum Field being conceptual, and Captain Atom gaining full on conceptual manipulation since he can manipulate the field in its entirety, but I'm strongly against limited conceptual manipulation for Speedsters and Lanterns.

I second this. Though I would argue we need a good supplementary reason for CA receiving it and the consistency of QF being treated as conceptual. If all those are meet then I strongly support Emp.

 

[Antvasima]

I support the Quantum Field being conceptual, and Captain Atom gaining full on conceptual manipulation since he can manipulate the field in its entirety

Maybe. Let's see what @Deagonx and @Elizio33 think.

but I'm strongly against limited conceptual manipulation for Speedsters and Lanterns.

Strongly agreed.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

but I'm strongly against limited conceptual manipulation for Speedsters and Lanterns.

I didn't really elaborate upon this. But only certain speedster and Lanterns get CM, not all of them. But I'll discuss that in another CRT as that's another can of worms.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with Deagons assessment on the lanterns and speedsters, however am neutral on the captain atom stuff as the quantum field evidence is far more compelling IMO.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The problem I have with Deagon’s argument despite having some good points is within this weird logic. We’re specifically trying to focus on Captain Atom, the thing is if we treat the Quantum Field and use older stories where’s it’s treated as some sort of force that’s a facet of reality alongside the Emotional Spectrum and Speed Force.

Then it’s quite obvious there’s a problem which Deagon present. However, it’s by common logic that not all speedsters or lantern would receive conceptual manipulation and we don’t need to say, “If Captain Atom receives conceptual manipulation then so would other beings that scale to that same energy that permeates Reality.”

Obviously, not all of them would receive it. I support Emirp point on knowing to which whom and what will receive the ability. We don’t need to dwell into the notion of this can’t work because that would boost others as oppose to say QF being treated as conceptual is important given the context of CA nature since not all speedster fully scale nor control the Speed Force or Lanterns fully getting the entire Emotional Spectrum. I think the argument for having it is sufficient.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I've applied everything except for the following parts:

• Brainiac (Post-Flashpoint), Death of the Endless, Delirium of the Endless, Desire of the Endless, Despair of the Endless, Destiny of the Endless, Destruction of the Endless, Dream of the Endless, Elaine Belloc, Glory of the First Circle, Jill Presto, Mazikeen, Michael Demiurgos, Swamp Thing (Classic), and The Great Darkness all have no justification for their Causality Manipulation at all, so all this should be axed.

• Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics) has (The titans ascended to godhood and became immune to all forms of power other than their own, to defeat them Lucifer killed the titans before they had ascended to godhood, thus destroying the event of them ever becoming God[14]), which is just him changing history by killing someone in the past to kill them in the present and isn't a hax.

• Captain Atom (Post-Crisis) has this justification: "Nathaniel is the Avatar of the Quantum Field, which is one of the primal aspects of the cosmos.[7] He is connected to the field very deeply and can manipulate it in numerous ways, such as even creating his own universe in it.[21]" Quantum fields are a real thing that make up the fabric of our reality at the deepest level, with all particles being excitations of energy in them where they don't perfectly cancel themselves, and they're not conceptual in the slightest, so this should be axed.
• Black Racer, Despair of the Endless, Destiny of the Endless, Gabriel Hornblower, Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Nix Uotan, Pralaya (DC Comics), Rox Ogama, The Monitors (DC Comics), The Thought Robot, and Yuga Khan all have no justification for their Conceptual Manipulation at all, so all this should be axed.

What's the current state of debate regarding these?

 

[Antvasima]

I hope that you did not apply conceptual manipulation for speedsters or lanterns.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Elaine Belloc scales for the Presence of who made Creation and the Endless are by-products. Lucifer literally mentions they are just there because the Presence allows it and that cause-and-effect are not needed. Elaine when she reached Godhood said she became everyone and everything. The Presence determines everyone's fate and the plan contains everything including the personification of cause-and-effect: Destiny.

Michael is on the same level as Lucifer. Lucifer destroyed the garden which contains Tuski-Yomi who controlled the cause and effect of the Mansions. Michael also indirectly created everything since “Creation” power was embedded within him and Lucifer's laws affect everyone in his creation which energy to create all that was made by Michael. Lucifer destroyed them in the past so that there would never be an event in they become God, that's causality since he destroyed a cause and the effect was that the time paradox held that they never even ascended in the first place. It didn't affect the present because it never happened to begin with.

Basanos can literally manipulate, see, and make cause and effects hence why Elaine had to depower her.

The Endless should not have it except Destiny. The rest seem fine.


This seems right except for Pralaya and Gabriel. Gabriel was one of three beings that formed all of Creation. Creation is a concept and he invokes “patterns” to things.

Pralaya is where Creation came from. Her mere presence destroys the conceptual plane of the Kingdom of Now as “Now” ends.

As I mentioned above.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I hope that you did not apply conceptual manipulation for speedsters or lanterns.

I didn't add anything, only applied the approved removals.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good then. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Deagonx]

For now I think it would be prudent to recognize that the removal of Captain Atom's CM is too contentious to apply, and at some point in the future we can have a more focused and precise discussion about the CM issue by itself.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

For now I think it would be prudent to recognize that the removal of Captain Atom's CM is too contentious to apply, and at some point in the future we can have a more focused and precise discussion about the CM issue by itself.

And the others?

 

[Deagonx]

And the others?

I thought the rest was applied? I have been preoccupied so I'm not aware of other points of contention.

 

[Confluctor]

I don't understand the contention to Quantum Realm and Captain Atom, who is not only an elemental and have used it in ways that absolutely falls under proper Conceptual Manipulation in every possible way. Maybe consider changing the standards in the future instead of ignoring evidence, which this fits perfectly for.

You might be wondering why I didn't give him CM 1 fully at the beginning, well it's for 2 reasons - 1: I lacked a scan or two, which was a bit hard to track down back then, and 2 whatever this shit show is happening right now, was going to happen then.

Not every attack of Captain Atom is conceptual by the way - expecting it to be is... well, just weird and illogical. His attacks are conceptual ONLY when it specifically revolves around Quantum Field or if he is using TOO MUCH energy (which relies on him absorbing more of the Field into himself), such as when fighting against Nekron, creating his own universe (Which he actually INSIDE the Field itself), or destroying a uni/reality, etc. That's the kind of attacks would be conceptual. His other attacks are usually just matter or energy, which aren't really conceptual in nature,

For those confused on which abilities of Cap are actually conceptual, here is a list:

1. Anti-Magic - Quantum power is essentially anti-magic. Verse rule.
2. Explosion Manipulation - not always, ONLY when he is destroying a reality, for example.
3. Statistics Reduction
4. Absorption
5. Law Manipulation
6. Regen and Immortality Negation - can affect CM people with it
7. Death and Soul Resistance
   1. Btw he should get concept resistance for this
8. Reality Warping/and resistance to it

I won't address the rest of the shit in OP tho, even the stuff around Mxy. I really can't be asked. Just read more comics people - hopefully for fun too.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don't understand the contention to Quantum Realm and Captain Atom, who is not only an elemental and have used it in ways that absolutely falls under proper Conceptual Manipulation in every possible way. Maybe consider changing the standards in the future instead of ignoring evidence, which this fits perfectly for.

You might be wondering why I didn't give him CM 1 fully at the beginning, well it's for 2 reasons - 1: I lacked a scan or two, which was a bit hard to track down back then, and 2 whatever this shit show is happening right now, was going to happen then.

Not every attack of Captain Atom is conceptual by the way - expecting it to be is... well, just weird and illogical. His attacks are conceptual ONLY when it specifically revolves around Quantum Field or if he is using TOO MUCH energy (which relies on him absorbing more of the Field into himself), such as when fighting against Nekron, creating his own universe (Which he actually INSIDE the Field itself), or destroying a uni/reality, etc. That's the kind of attacks would be conceptual. His other attacks are usually just matter or energy, which aren't really conceptual in nature,

For those confused on which abilities of Cap are actually conceptual, here is a list:

1. Anti-Magic - Quantum power is essentially anti-magic. Verse rule.
2. Explosion Manipulation - not always, ONLY when he is destroying a reality, for example.
3. Statistics Reduction
4. Absorption
5. Law Manipulation
6. Regen and Immortality Negation - can affect CM people with it
7. Death and Soul Resistance
   1. Btw he should get concept resistance for this
8. Reality Warping/and resistance to it

I won't address the rest of the shit in OP tho, even the stuff around Mxy. I really can't be asked. Just read more comics people - hopefully for fun too.

Quite aggressive but not without some valid points.

 

[Antvasima]

For now I think it would be prudent to recognize that the removal of Captain Atom's CM is too contentious to apply, and at some point in the future we can have a more focused and precise discussion about the CM issue by itself.

Okay. Have we reached a conclusion here then? And if so, what, if anything, is left to do here?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Okay. Have we reached a conclusion here then? And if so, what, if anything, is left to do here?

If that's so, I'll leave CA's CM alone for now. There are three other things I haven't applied:

• Brainiac (Post-Flashpoint), Death of the Endless, Delirium of the Endless, Desire of the Endless, Despair of the Endless, Destiny of the Endless, Destruction of the Endless, Dream of the Endless, Elaine Belloc, Glory of the First Circle, Jill Presto, Mazikeen, Michael Demiurgos, Swamp Thing (Classic), and The Great Darkness all have no justification for their Causality Manipulation at all, so all this should be axed.

• Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics) has (The titans ascended to godhood and became immune to all forms of power other than their own, to defeat them Lucifer killed the titans before they had ascended to godhood, thus destroying the event of them ever becoming God[14]), which is just him changing history by killing someone in the past to kill them in the present and isn't a hax.

• Black Racer, Despair of the Endless, Destiny of the Endless, Gabriel Hornblower, Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Nix Uotan, Pralaya (DC Comics), Rox Ogama, The Monitors (DC Comics), The Thought Robot, and Yuga Khan all have no justification for their Conceptual Manipulation at all, so all this should be axed.

There's still ongoing debate regarding these, so what should I do?

 

[Bastolan27]

There's still ongoing debate regarding these, so what should I do?

Black Racer: I guess his conceptual manipulation would stem from being an aspect of death, and his power seems to function similarly in a sense. I suppose what the page considers conceptual is his 'death manipulation'.

The Endless: I suppose they would have conceptual manipulation because they are the concepts themselves and can manipulate them as they wish (though I'm not entirely certain about this).

Gabriel: I have no idea why he has CM; his CM probably stems from his association as a demiurgic archangel. However, since he lacks feats for it and due to the fallacy of association, his should be removed (how I hate this character, omg, take his cm away please).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Black Racer: I guess his conceptual manipulation would stem from being an aspect of death, and his power seems to function similarly in a sense. I suppose what the page considers conceptual is his 'death manipulation'.

The Endless: I suppose they would have conceptual manipulation because they are the concepts themselves and can manipulate them as they wish (though I'm not entirely certain about this).

Gabriel: I have no idea why he has CM; his CM probably stems from his association as a demiurgic archangel. However, since he lacks feats for it and due to the fallacy of association, his should be removed (how I hate this character, omg, take his cm away please).

Putting patterns on making all of Existence should count as CM. He can scale to his brothers as there’s no reason to suggest he couldn’t. It’s causality that he shouldn’t get.

 

[Bastolan27]

Putting patterns on making all of Existence should count as CM. He can scale to his brothers as there’s no reason to suggest he couldn’t. It’s causality that he shouldn’t get.

can u send the scan?

 

[Antvasima]

If that's so, I'll leave CA's CM alone for now. There are three other things I haven't applied:



There's still ongoing debate regarding these, so what should I do?

@Deagonx @Emirp sumitpo @VeryGoofyToddler

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

This is incorrect, and they realize it later in the comic.

'Beyond the source wall is the reservoir of emotional energy, filled by the living beings of this universe. This is the power that keeps our universe running. But it is not the Source. Also contained on the other side of the source wall were the instructions for how our universe was constructed. The life equation. If you change the equation, you change reality.'

The only thing the guardians differentiate from the Emotional Spectrum is the Source, not the Life Equation. Not only that, it seems quite contradictory as Highfather, someone with more and superior knowledge of Cosmology and the Light, said it is. As such, this contradiction is ignored in favour of someone with better knowledge. It was also contradicted by another Guardian later on Green Lantern/Godhead #8

In addition, New Gods: Godhead #1, Highfather deliberately mentions how the mortals - the Guardians - tapped into the greatest power, and without knowing.

They gathered the rings thinking it was the Life Equation but they failed.

Highfather makes the same mistake that the lanterns did in blackest night. Simply put, using 7 rings doesn't allow you to access the white light. Blackest Night makes that very clear, and in issue of Green Lantern (2011) #35, Metron even points out the flaws in Highfather's thinking.

The only way you can actually gain the white light is via actually mastering all 7 emotions like Kyle, or use the power of the life entity itself. I'm saying this because Highfather would not know any of this as the story makes it very clear that he has no prior experience with the lantern rings or how they function.

Highfather isn't really wrong about the ES not being the LE, what he was wrong about was how to harness said power. That's what led him to think that the LE and ES weren't the same.

'You nearly drove this universe to extinction with your use of the emotional spectrum. And now you would try to control the Life Equation?'

That's not much a debunk honestly.

ES is a power whereas life equation is literally a formula. Kyle wouldn't know the formula so i don't see how this is against it. It just shows that with formula, things go from 10 to 100. And also, he says "control". Saying you need deeper control and better understanding to use the LE compared to ES. I don't think it's enough evidence to say LE can't scale to ES. Not only that, but the ALE also requires a lot more understanding and control to be used too. So I don't see why this is any different.

Darkseid is just saying Nekron successfully eliminated free will

That doesn't debunk my point. Nekron removed free will because he was the ALE. Darkseid even says that himself and is the reason why Darkseid chooses to merge with Nekron in that same scan.

"I have spent my entire life seeking to eliminate free will. Nekron found the solution. His word is the Anti-Life Equation."

Wouldn't that just be time manip? I'm not sure why that'd be concept manip

It's supporting evidence to showcase that the Speed Force is an important pillar of reality.

I am just not persuaded of these things being concepts. Especially since the emotional spectrum is literally just emotional energy in a reservoir outside the source wall. The Lanterns aren't channeling the concept of the emotion they are correlated with, they are using emotional energy.

None of this actually debunks any of my points. It being emotional energy also wouldn't really contradict the ES being conceptual in nature.

And as I clarified a little earlier, not all lanterns and Speedsters get CM, only a select few.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

can u send the scan?

It was #75 when God said Michael birth matter from his heart, Samael weaves it into suns, and Gabriel would impose patterns as the worlds cool down.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

@Deagonx @Emirp sumitpo @VeryGoofyToddler

I agree with Emp and I think my proposal are fine.

 

[Deagonx]

The only thing the guardians differentiate from the Emotional Spectrum is the Source, not the Life Equation.

The text as written makes this interpretation impossible. It says three things:

1. Beyond the source wall is the reservoir of emotional energy filled by living beings of the universe. It is the power that keeps the universe running.

2. This reservoir is not the Source.

3. Also* beyond the wall is instructions for how the universe was constructed. This is the life equation.

The reservoir can't be the life equation, they are given two completely descriptions and the word "also" would be illogical if they were the same.

That doesn't debunk my point. Nekron removed free will because he was the ALE. Darkseid even says that himself and is the reason why Darkseid chooses to merge with Nekron in that same scan.

"I have spent my entire life seeking to eliminate free will. Nekron found the solution. His word is the Anti-Life Equation."

I'm aware of what the scan said, I am disagreeing with your interpretation. Your interpretation is that what Darkseid meant was that Nekron is himself literally the Anti Life Equation. I am saying it's deeper than that. To Darkseid, the ALE represented the eradication of Free Will. Darkseid calls Nekron the ALE because he -- in his somewhat roundabout method -- effectively destroyed free will and acknowledges him as the ALE.

Alternatively maybe he's saying Nekron found it and is using it, but that seems unlikely. I imagine if that were really the case they'd say more about it than that. In any case Nekron himself can't literally be the Anti Life equation, as the equation is just an equation.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I agree with Emirp.

Also, I am not sure what the proposal for Mandrakk is at the current moment (if there are any), but if it's a removal for the hax then I disagree with it for the reasons outlined in the thread that gave him it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I agree with Emirp.

Also, I am not sure what the proposal for Mandrakk is at the current moment (if there are any), but if it's a removal for the hax then I disagree with it for the reasons outlined in the thread that gave him it.

The very vague description and not an actual showing of “plot manipulation.” It’s not a hax, it doesn’t actually affect anyone or anything being used as so far Mandrakk feats were physical and direct in nature.