DC Comics: Reviewing Exotic Haxes

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I've been convinced here. I kind of agree that CA just has conceptual manipulation because limited is unnecessary unless there are things that it doesn't affect when channeling the Field.

Edit: Deagon still proposes a strong point. I mean we can settle for limited CM.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Ditto.

What's your opinion on this topic?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I'll reply to both tomorrow

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

their probablity manipulation is also byproduct of causality manipulation. an imitation of destiny books.

Honestly has no idea why its exploded but the point stand, it mean to be poetic how in their quest to seek for destruction they got it, I also noticed that Destiny are there, i think its the most easily explained one because its a book that contain past present and future that can be rewitten, basically textbook Text Manipulation.

which is causality manipulation

None of this is a valid justification for causality manipulation, which is a very specific power that requires direct evidence, not inferences from "history" or "fate" hax.

Conceptual Manipulation

• Captain Atom (Post-Crisis) has this justification: "Nathaniel is the Avatar of the Quantum Field, which is one of the primal aspects of the cosmos.[7] He is connected to the field very deeply and can manipulate it in numerous ways, such as even creating his own universe in it.[21]" Quantum fields are a real thing that make up the fabric of our reality at the deepest level, with all particles being excitations of energy in them where they don't perfectly cancel themselves, and they're not conceptual in the slightest, so this should be axed.

This is the only thing still being debated, so I'll start applying everything else.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Elaine Belloc scales for the Presence of who made Creation and the Endless are by-products. Lucifer literally mentions they are just there because the Presence allows it and that cause-and-effect are not needed. Elaine when she reached Godhood said she became everyone and everything. The Presence determines everyone's fate and the plan contains everything including the personification of cause-and-effect: Destiny.

Michael is on the same level as Lucifer. Lucifer destroyed the garden which contains Tuski-Yomi who controlled the cause and effect of the Mansions. Michael also indirectly created everything since “Creation” power was embedded within him and Lucifer's laws affect everyone in his creation which energy to create all that was made by Michael. Lucifer destroyed them in the past so that there would never be an event in they become God, that's causality since he destroyed a cause and the effect was that the time paradox held that they never even ascended in the first place. It didn't affect the present because it never happened to begin with.

Basanos can literally manipulate, see, and make cause and effects hence why Elaine had to depower her.

The Endless should not have it except Destiny. The rest seem fine.


This seems right except for Pralaya and Gabriel. Gabriel was one of three beings that formed all of Creation. Creation is a concept and he invokes “patterns” to things.

Pralaya is where Creation came from. Her mere presence destroys the conceptual plane of the Kingdom of Now as “Now” ends.

Before you start please reference this.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

destruction of the endless has no justification for

• immortality 1, 3 and 4
• reality warping
• energy manip
• time manip
• matter manip
• spatial manip
• causality manip
• flight
• telepathy

there is more
these abilities should be removed too

Flight shouldn't be removed. I don't think every ability needs justification. Immortality type 1 shouldn't need justification for him as a member of the Endless.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Elaine Belloc scales for the Presence of who made Creation and the Endless are by-products. Lucifer literally mentions they are just there because the Presence allows it and that cause-and-effect are not needed. Elaine when she reached Godhood said she became everyone and everything. The Presence determines everyone's fate and the plan contains everything including the personification of cause-and-effect: Destiny.

Michael is on the same level as Lucifer. Lucifer destroyed the garden which contains Tuski-Yomi who controlled the cause and effect of the Mansions. Michael also indirectly created everything since “Creation” power was embedded within him and Lucifer's laws affect everyone in his creation which energy to create all that was made by Michael. Lucifer destroyed them in the past so that there would never be an event in they become God, that's causality since he destroyed a cause and the effect was that the time paradox held that they never even ascended in the first place. It didn't affect the present because it never happened to begin with.

Basanos can literally manipulate, see, and make cause and effects hence why Elaine had to depower her.

The Endless should not have it except Destiny. The rest seem fine.


This seems right except for Pralaya and Gabriel. Gabriel was one of three beings that formed all of Creation. Creation is a concept and he invokes “patterns” to things.

Pralaya is where Creation came from. Her mere presence destroys the conceptual plane of the Kingdom of Now as “Now” ends.

@Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity

 

[Samael_010]

None of this is a valid justification for causality manipulation, which is a very specific power that requires direct evidence, not inferences from "history" or "fate" hax.

Direct history manipulation is always has been causality manip tho, Causality is really not specifict, and tied to time Hence why we dont have a specific page for some ability like history manipulation.


Jill/Basanos:
To quote from causality manipulation page

"redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect."

I dont think i need to give scan, Basanos profile already explain their mechanism really well.

Destruction of the endless :

Ig its not causality but its deff probablity

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I dont think i need to give scan, Basanos page already explain their mechanism really well.

I mean the Basanos literally are a copy of cause and effect.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Direct history manipulation is always has been causality manip tho, Causality is really not specifict, and tied to time Hence why we dont have a specific page for some ability like history manipulation.


Jill/Basanos:
To quote from causality manipulation page

"redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect."

I dont think i need to give scan, Basanos page already explain their mechanism really well.

Destruction of the endless :

Ig its not causality but its deff probablity

I mean the Basanos literally are a copy of cause and effect.

No, it is not. None of this is a remotely valid justification.

 

[Samael_010]

No, it is not. None of this is a remotely valid justification.

Ur trollin

 

[Deagonx]

Ur trollin

I'm not following the point you're trying to make.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Ur trollin

Stop derailing.

 

[Samael_010]

I'm not following the point you're trying to make.

Direct feat/statement like erasing day, event, makin someone never were to exist is a legit causality manipulation as it something that acknowledge by the wiki.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Direct feat/statement like erasing day, event, makin someone never were to exist is a legit causality manipulation as it something that acknowledge by the wiki.

No, it is not. That is baseless.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Lucifer says to Destiny that cause and effect are useful tools but are not the foundation on which reality should be built. Expressing his view on Yahweh's approach at Creation making that caused “cause and effect:” Destiny, who came as a side effect and thus a prison is built when all things are predetermined. Hence why he burns the pages that contain all the history of Creation to show that cause and effect are negligible concepts in the grander scheme of things. That's literally a feat of causality manipulation.

 

[Deagonx]

Direct feat/statement like erasing day, event, makin someone never were to exist is a legit causality manipulation as it something that acknowledge by the wiki.

By "acknowledged by the wiki" do you mean its currently on a profile?

 

[Samael_010]

By "acknowledged by the wiki" do you mean its currently on a profile?

on many profile that i cant name, Diavolo?? tons of DC profile ofcourse, there also some Q&A regarding this that people widely accepted as Causality Manipulation. This DT thread also equalized History manipulation to causality, History Rewriting on Text manipulation page is directly linked to Causality Manipulation which is what i screenshoted above.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I'll give a better example. When Yahweh summons Elaine and Lilith to a pocket reality that can not exist. He showed that any decision he makes can affect everything since the beginning of time removing any/all possibilities that can be put.

That would sum up this part CM:

The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.

Yahweh received a threat from Elaine if he goes through with his plan. Daring him to destroy Creation and that she will fight him till she dies. Yahweh says that her “fight” would be useless because her cause would produce no effect because there wouldn’t be a cause due to his power affecting all things since the beginning of time.

This sums up this part of CM:

The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.

Elaine is mad at this notion because he would destroy all possibilities. So nothing would happen when there could be something. This means by effect Creation, removing the cause.

This sums up this part of CM:

The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.

Lucifer tells Destiny that cause and effect(Destiny) are just side effects of Yahweh's deterministic approach to Creation making. By destroying part of his books which contains all the possibilities, he removed countless amounts of possibilities given Destiny says any words, action, or thing can change the script.

The Basanos are mimics of Destiny, who records and chronicles all those destines and defines all those possibilities. Not to mention Noema using that same crossover power to manipulate events and things to lead them near dissolution.

Lucifer scales to Yahweh and can do anything he could in except willing Creation from absolute nothing. Michael holds the entirety of God’s power and as the Demiurge is second to Yahweh. Destiny and Basanos literally personify the ability itself. Destiny doesn't manipulate other fates by adding cause and effects but the Basanos did. Either way, both should have it. I was bewildered that this was even put up for.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I'll give a better example. When Yahweh summons Elaine and Lilith to a pocket reality that can not exist. He showed that any decision he makes can affect everything since the beginning of time removing any/all possibilities that can be put.

This just sounds like subjective reality. Causality manipulation isn't just making any event happen. "Doing one thing that leads to another" can describe every action that's ever been performed.

Yahweh received a threat from Elaine if he goes through with his plan. Daring him to destroy Creation and that she will fight him till she dies. Yahweh says that her “fight” would be useless because her cause would produce no effect because there wouldn’t be a cause due to his power affecting all things since the beginning of time.

You're editorializing the text, that's just fate manipulation/subjective reality.

Elaine is mad at this notion because he would destroy all possibilities. So nothing would happen when there could be something. This means by effect Creation, removing the cause.

That's a veeery highballed interpretation of the scan, to say the least. She's just saying that destroying reality would prevent new things from happening (which is a pretty standard byproduct of destroying everything). Turning off my laptop right now would end the possibilities of things I could have done, doesn't mean I'm manipulating causality. We even have a note on our tiering system pages addressing something vaguely similar to this:

Note that only direct destruction or creation qualifies. Just destroying the universe at the beginning of time and the rest vanishing due to the resulting causality paradox does not meet the requirements and would only be ranked as 3-A (Universe level).

Lucifer tells Destiny that cause and effect(Destiny) are just side effects of Yahweh's deterministic approach to Creation making. By destroying part of his books which contains all the possibilities, he removed countless amounts of possibilities given Destiny says any words, action, or thing can change the script.

These scans actually look promising. Lucifer discusses the Presence's deterministic approach to forging his creation and blatantly likens it to "using cause and effect as tools to create a prison." It's pretty explicit causality manipulation for the Presence and anyone who scales to his creation-forging powers. What I'm iffy on is scaling these hax to Destiny. If this were several weeks ago, I would've agreed with the "reality is confirmed to be a system of causality, so anyone with control over reality is controlling causality" line of reasoning, but I just saw a verse with similar justifications lose their causality manipulation, so I'm unsure. I'll leave it to Deagn/Lawyer to decide if Destiny's text manipulation encompassing the Presence's reality (a causal system) is grounds for causality manipulation, or chain reaction.

The Basanos are mimics of Destiny, who records and chronicles all those destines and defines all those possibilities. Not to mention Noema using that same crossover power to manipulate events and things to lead them near dissolution.

Lucifer scales to Yahweh and can do anything he could in except willing Creation from absolute nothing. Michale holds the entirety of God’s power and Demiurge is only second to Yahweh. Destiny and Basanos literally personify the ability itself. Destiny doesn't manipulate other fates by adding cause and effects but the Basanos did. Either way, both should have it.

If Lucifer, Michael, and Elaine scale to Yahweh's reality warping hax, I agree with causality manipulation for them. As for giving causality hax to those who scale to the Destiny's reality warping, I'm neutral for the reasons above.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This just sounds like subjective reality. Causality manipulation isn't just making any event happen. "Doing one thing that leads to another" can describe every action that's ever been performed.

You're editorializing the text, that's just fate manipulation/subjective reality.

That's a veeery highballed interpretation of the scan, to say the least. She's just saying that destroying reality would prevent new things from happening (which is a pretty standard byproduct of destroying everything). Turning off my laptop right now would end the possibilities of things I could have done, doesn't mean I'm manipulating causality. We even have a note on our tiering system pages addressing something vaguely similar to this:


These scans actually look promising. Lucifer discusses the Presence's deterministic approach to forging his creation and blatantly likens it to "using cause and effect as tools to create a prison." It's pretty explicit causality manipulation for the Presence and anyone who scales to his creation-forging powers. What I'm iffy on is scaling these hax to Destiny. If this were several weeks ago, I would've agreed with the "reality is confirmed to be a system of causality, so anyone with control over reality is controlling causality" line of reasoning, but I just saw a verse with similar justifications lose their causality manipulation, so I'm unsure. I'll leave it to Deagn/Lawyer to decide if Destiny's text manipulation encompassing the Presence's reality (a causal system) is grounds for causality manipulation, or chain reaction.

If Lucifer, Michael, and Elaine scale to Yahweh's reality warping hax, I agree with causality manipulation for them. As for giving causality hax to those who scale to the Destiny's reality warping, I'm neutral for the reasons above.

You're missing context and given your history of doing so, I’ll just leave this. Not trying to be rude but I rather not go into this.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

You're missing context and given your history of doing so, I’ll just leave this. Not trying to be rude but I rather not go into this.

ProfectusInfinity has consistently been one of the most helpful and thoughtful members I've interacted with, and I do not favor attempts to demean them by claiming they have a history of missing context.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

ProfectusInfinity has consistently been one of the most helpful and thoughtful members I've interacted with, and I do not favor attempts to demean them by claiming they have a history of missing context.

I don't need you to defend someone on the premise it suits your view more. I've never claimed that he/she hadn’t been useful or thoughtful. I can rightfully claim in the past, that he/she does miss context. If I did answer the points directly, you'll see why but I rather not derail. I wasn't being demoralizing so I don't get the need to mention this as this pertains to how I've seen Profectus view things in the past to not be in line with comics.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I don't need you to defend someone on the premise it suits your view more. I've never claimed that he/she hadn’t been useful or thoughtful. I can rightfully claim in the past, that he/she does miss context. If I did answer the points directly, you'll see why but I rather not derail. I wasn't being demoralizing so I don't get the need to mention this as this pertains to how I've seen Profectus view things in the past to not be in line with comics.

Now you're strawmanning me too. @Deagonx @Antvasima

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

That's literally calling an invalid fallacy upon just a disagreement. This is pernicious and pretentious because you would of committed a red herring, if you were addressing me just pointing out a person who doesn't need defending. He knew I was going to respond to defend and explain what I said, so he was baiting me with that notion which is childish and bewildering.

On topic, Tuski-Yomi in his garden in the Mansions controls the laws of causality. Lucifer scaled above this God and will alone shatter the entire mansions. Given each Endless embodies their domain save Death then they should have a sort of causality.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Also, I will stand heed to my own decision to not respond to the point as ProfectusInfinity. However, to add more context Lucifer literally created his own Creation with everything Yahweh had except for afterlives. This is why Susano left after Lucifer made the tarot cards kill themselves as his will expresses his Universe and the laws governing his Creation are expressed by him.

The entire arc of Lucifer centers around predestination and decision-making that produces outcomes albeit effects from causes. Destiny is literally the personification of cause and effect and the Basanos literally used the corrosive power of their nature to enact many causes and effects. So I don't get what's so hard about accepting causality manipulation to beings who embody said concept.

 

[Deagonx]

I feel that everything other than the concept manip has received enough agreement that we should not continue discussion about it here, so that we can sort out the final element.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I feel that everything other than the concept manip has received enough agreement that we should not continue discussion about it here, so that we can sort out the final element.

Lawyer asks your opinion on concept manipulation that I discussed for Gabriel and Pralaya whom I think should have concept manipulation.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

He knew I was going to respond to defend and explain what I said, so he was baiting me with that notion which is childish and bewildering.

Are you calling me, or Lawyer childish and bewildering?

Either way dude, get a hold of yourself. If you'd taken time to read my whole comment, you'd have known that among the people agreeing with the downgrade, I was the only one who actually went out of their way to argue in favor of causality manipulation staying in some form for certain characters. And on the parts where I was unsure, I did not choose to disagree for the sake of it (as I would if I were a "relentless DC hater"), I actually chose a neutral stance.

If we're really just expressing comments on past behavior and not attacking each other, then I'd like to tell you to knock it off with your entitled attitude. It's not anyone else's job to buy your claims at face value, it's your responsibility to provide information that would impact our evaluation. If we're missing context, it's on you to provide it. The fact that we missed out on the scans [which you only just provided] in analyzing causality manipulation justifications is no one's fault but your own. You did this last time when your cosmology CRT's were too confusing for Deagon and Ant to analyze, so you chose to covertly insult them for being too dense to re-read them (rather than doing your job and making it clear).

Anyway, this is completely outside the topic of this CRT, so this side discussion should end here.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Are you calling me, or Lawyer childish and bewildering?

Lawyer since he pinged the mods over such a small reason. Though I thought that was obvious. If I sound prudent when I say that then that was because it was unnecessary.

Either way dude, get a hold of yourself. If you'd taken time to read my whole comment, you'd have known that among the people agreeing with the downgrade, I was the only one who actually went out of their way to argue in favor of causality manipulation staying in some form for certain characters. And on the parts where I was unsure, I did not choose to disagree for the sake of it (as I would if I were a "relentless DC hater"), I actually chose a neutral stance.

I actually did read your argument. My point of contingency was addressing the Yahweh scan which is the bulk of the argument to scale Destiny and the Basanos.

If we're really just expressing comments on past behavior and not attacking each other, then I'd like to tell you to knock it off with your entitled attitude. It's not anyone else's job to buy your claims at face value, it's your responsibility to provide information that would impact our evaluation. If we're missing context, it's on you to provide it. The fact that we missed out on the scans [which you only just provided] in analyzing causality manipulation justifications is no one's fault but your own. You did this last time when your cosmology CRT's were too confusing for Deagon and Ant to analyze, so you chose to covertly insult them for being too dense to re-read them (rather than doing your job and making it clear).

You're pointing out the obvious things. I can express that I don't need to agree with your view. It just so happens that people take that wrong, as to say that I'm calling you wrong on your interpretation as supposed to be me not agreeing with your takes in the past as well as now. I feel you should take the time to understand that just because I don't disagree does not discredit whether you're right or wrong, which a certain person didn't seem to get. That's why I said you're missing the context behind those scans and I made it illicitly clear it was not meant to be rude and if it were then I'm sorry.

I do recommend you don't misjudge what I said and bring up that I'm trying to buy people to agree to what I said, which is not at all the point, and makes me look like a jerk at face value.

Anyway, this is completely outside the topic of this CRT, so this side discussion should end here.

Yeah, I'll have to address this due to misunderstanding for both parties.

 

[Antvasima]

What's your opinion on this topic?

Well, unless Captain Atom, the Flashes, Green Lanterns, etc. and the other characters have explicitly displayed conceptual manipulation, I do not think that they should receive it, as that has never been the focus of their abilities as far as I am aware.

I'm still in favor of removing it, and I am not in favor of giving all Lanterns and Speedsters a form of conceptual manipulation.

What is the reasoning for these being conceptual forces, by the way? I understand they are "main multiversal forces" but something being a powerful non-physical energy source does not make it a concept. Conceptual things are non-physical, but being non-physical does not automatically make something conceptual.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Well, unless Captain Atom, the Flashes, Green Lanterns, etc. and the other characters have explicitly displayed conceptual manipulation, I do not think that they should receive it, as that has never been the focus of their abilities as far as I am aware.

You sold me on that. However, do we just give CA, limited conceptual manipulation? If not then I guess I’m fine with that though Emp still has some stuff to say, that may sell it.

 

[Antvasima]

What is the evidence for his (supposed) limited conceptual manipulation?

 

[Robo432343]

What is the evidence for his (supposed) limited conceptual manipulation?

being an avatar of the quantum field and being able to manipulate it

 

[Antvasima]

But that doesn't seem equivalent to manipulating the concepts that govern reality themselves.

 

[Robo432343]

But that doesn't seem equivalent to manipulating the concepts that govern reality themselves.

yes that seems to be the issue

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

What is the evidence for his (supposed) limited conceptual manipulation?

I'm still writing

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

These two could work as I find the QF to be a sort of dependent concept and you're example could match these two options:

It definitely falls under the former in this scenario.

That would count as conceptual manipulation. However, is that consistent with CA, and is the Quantum Field always treated as that sort of conceptual idea? If so then that does look like CM.

There's nothing really contradicts the idea of it being conceptual.

What is the reasoning for these being conceptual forces, by the way? I understand they are "main multiversal forces" but something being a powerful non-physical energy source does not make it a concept. Conceptual things are non-physical, but being non-physical does not automatically make something conceptual.

In New Gods: Godhead Vol 1 1, The Emotional Spectrum has been stated by Highfather to be the Life Equation, which is consistent with Nekron being stated to be the Anti-Life Equation, from Tales From the Dark Multiverse: Blackest Night

In Blackest Night, it was repeatedly stated that if the emotional spectrum were to be destroyed, it would result in the universe falling back into a void. Relevant scans are:

• Blackest Night Vol 1 7
• Blackest Night Vol 1 8 first scan and Blackest Night Vol 1 8 second scan

In Superman Red and Blue Vol 1 1, the emotional spectrum is brought up here and tied to as colors. When a 5th dimensional Imp removed all color from the universe, it also removed emotions from the universe. Things such as anger and sadness were removed, and everyone became silent and calm, to the point they even forgot what color was, such as here and here, and the imp even said that color was now hard to imagine now that it was gone. And once Superman returned color to the world, emotion appeared once again and the world returned to normal. It's pretty clear that the emotional spectrum is a fundamental part of shaping reality here.

In Justice League Vol 4 22, Perpetua describes that the emotional spectrum can affect beings even within the sixth dimension. Beings in the sixth dimension already have Conceptual Manipulation.

In Justice League Vol 4 29, it's stated to be a governing force of the material universe. And in The Green Lantern: Season Two Vol 1 7, the Emotional Spectrum is one of the key forces in the universe that allows for life and universe to continue existing. Due to it's nature, the destruction of Emotional Spectrum would turn the universe into a mess that is unable to support life or it's structure, thus returning to its original form, which is pure darkness/Void/Nekron.

As for the Speed Force.

As stated by Thawne, the Speed Force is time itself throughout all of existence. As he states in The Flash (2010) #12: "The Speed Force is tied to so many things when you pull back the electrical curtain and see for what it is: Time. All of time. Existence moving through reality. Kinetic energy. Temporal energy. A storm of intelligence and experience that can connect me to everything and everyone."

In Final Crisis #6, Barry states that the Speed Force is pure information, which is consistent with Thawne's last sentence. As well as this, with the Speed Force stating to encompass everything, even death, in Convergence #1. It's brought up again in The Flash (2016) #780, where the Speed Force is connected to everything, to everytime. And in Justice League Vol 4 29, it's stated to be a governing force of the material universe.

There are multiple statements of the Speed Force being the very force that drives reality forward:

• It is also stated as the force that moves the world forward in The Flash (2011) #9
• Stated here in The Flash (2011) #8
• Stated again in The Flash (2011) #14
• As stated in The Flash (2016) #88, it is the force that keeps the multiverse going.
• As stated in the The Flash: The Official Visual Companion: The Scarlet Speedster, An extradimensional field that pushes both space and time forward. In essence, it's reality in motion. It's all-encompassing- an energy that exists in every dimension, universe, and era that touches every part of reality and contains the knowledge of every place and time.

There are even examples where it shows the Speed Force is essential to reality:

• Mister Terrific states that the destabilization of the Speed Force would lead to the destruction of the Omniverse in The Flash (2016) 2021 Annual
• Stated to be the life blood of time itself in The Flash (2011) Annual 3 and as stated in The Flash (2011) #32, is the stitching that hold space time together.
• The prior cans were important because during the New 52 Future Flash story arc, Future Flash's whole motivation for travelling back to the past was to repair the Speed Force, and save all of reality. Future Flash even states in The Flash (2011) #35 that the speed force tear was causing reality to bleed out, and even stating again that reality would shatter as a side-effect of the Speed Force having a wound.

In conclusion, both the Speed Force and the Emotional Spectrum are fundamental parts of reality. The destruction of the Emotional Spectrum would lead to the universe returning to a void, and the destruction/destabilization of the Speed Force, would lead to reality crumbling. Even affecting either of them is shown to have a significant impact on reality itself

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Though my points were answered. What specifically did Captain Atom do in correlation with the QF. Is each of his attack more conceptual base or when he does use his power does it come from the QF?

If it’s the former it does give him CM given that each of his attack aren’t physical in nature and could damage certain parts of reality due to channeling a power that ties with other fundamental forces of Reality.

If it’s the latter then proving that QF is conceptual would have to elude the power he uses specifically comes from and is directly tied with the QF.

I would be incline to agree, if you can provide those certain instances. Though, I want to see what Deagon has to say in this matter. Note, I’m not taking the idea he’s an avatar of the QF to be the main reason why he would have conceptual manipulation.

 

[Planck69]

Reading Emirp's post, The Emotional Spectrum and Speed Force seem to pretty clearly be conceptual forces that govern aspects of reality. Given the Quantum Field is put on a similar level of existence, I don't have much issue with manipulation of said field being Conceptual Manipulation.

Also, really, if the issue is that he may or may not be killing people on a conceptual level with each blast then just make that clear. People have this weird idea that because it's power it must be offensive else it isn't a power.