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DC Comics: Reviewing Exotic Haxes

IdiosyncraticLawyer

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Minor-major CRT, I thought I'd review all the high-end haxes DC characters have after seeing a lot of unjustified ones.
Acausality
  • Chrysalis (Eternity Girl) has Type 1 and Type 4 Acausality with the following justification: "Has seemingly broke free of the narrative itself, managing to exist upon the blank page in which the comic is drawn, and having been unaffected by the continuity being reseted after Retconn's attempts to erase it were thwarted." Though Type 1 Acausality is fine, saying she "broke free of the narrative itself" just seems like resistance to plot manipulation and seems too unspecific for Type 4 Acausality, so this should be changed to that.
  • Mister Mxyzptlk has the following Type 4 Acausality justification: "Doesn't operate under the natural laws of the universe.[91] Was stated to have transcended[77] the laws of physics and nature.[79]" Saying he doesn't operate under the universe's natural laws just means he operates under the Fifth Dimension's different physics, and physics ≠ causality without precise evidence, while saying he "transcends physics and nature" in those scans literally just means his powers violate known physics, which is a given for anything supernatural, ever, so this ability should be removed.
Causality Manipulation
Conceptual Manipulation
Dimensional Manipulation
Higher-Dimensional Existence
  • Zauriel (Post-Crisis) and The Spectre should have their HDE removed, as HDE only applies to characters that are geometrically higher-dimensional, which is not how these two characters qualify for qualitative superiority.
Invulnerability
Law Manipulation
Mathematics Manipulation
  • Superman (Pre-Crisis) has Super-Mathematics (The scan isn't on the profile, but I know it's this), but this just refers to how his math skills are far better than any human, not any kind of power over math; remove it.
Plot Manipulation
  • The Thought Robot should have PM by scaling to Mandrakk. (this is an addition, not a removal)
Probability Manipulation
Void Manipulation
 
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Mother Night is the nothingness that precedes Creation. Her realm is just darkness and emptiness even in dreams and her union with Time brought about everything from the Void. I think she should have a Void manipulation. Since all things will return to her eventually.
 
This is the only thing I disagree with. Mandrakk has limited plot manip because he can "eat stories." Thought Robot can't eat stories.

Other than it this all looks good. Thank you for doing a thorough audit, it was much needed.
Okay.
Mother Night is the nothingness that precedes Creation. Her realm is just darkness and emptiness even in dreams and her union with Time brought about everything from the Void. I think she should have a Void manipulation. Since all things will return to her eventually.
Thoughts, everyone?
 
I like to say Carey's version of the Void isn't the same as Gaiman's depiction. For, Father Time he created the Book of Destiny which he gave “everything he had” to Destiny. At the time, given the context was nothing but Void and the rules that only the Demiurgic Power can create from nothing seemed nonexistent to Gaiman. Even then the Void has “rules” which all things return to and the Void in Sandman is Night as opposed to Lucifer's Void being “void.”

Gabriel has no justification for Void manipulation that is for sure.
 
Acausality
  • Chrysalis (Eternity Girl) has Type 1 and Type 4 Acausality with the following justification: "Has seemingly broke free of the narrative itself, managing to exist upon the blank page in which the comic is drawn, and having been unaffected by the continuity being reseted after Retconn's attempts to erase it were thwarted." Though Type 1 Acausality is fine, saying she "broke free of the narrative itself" just seems like resistance to plot manipulation and seems too unspecific for Type 4 Acausality, so this should be changed to that.
I agree that it's too unspecific for type 4.
I agree, most of these scans being used to justify that "he operates under different laws" are editorialized versions of statements that actually just say that his powers defy known physics.
Agree.
Yeah, this is just history erasure.
Agree.
Conceptual Manipulation
Agreed.
Dimensional Manipulation
Agree.
Higher-Dimensional Existence
  • Zauriel (Post-Crisis) and The Spectre should have their HDE removed, as HDE only applies to characters that are geometrically higher-dimensional, which is not how these two characters qualify for qualitative superiority.
Agree.
Invulnerability
Agree.
Law Manipulation
Mathematics Manipulation
  • Superman (Pre-Crisis) has Super-Mathematics (The scan isn't on the profile, but I know it's this), but this just refers to how his math skills are far better than any human, not any kind of power over math; remove it.
Agree.
Plot Manipulation
  • The Thought Robot should have PM by scaling to Mandrakk. (this is an addition, not a removal)
I agree with this being crossed out for Deagon's reasons.
Probability Manipulation
Void Manipulation
Agreed.

No major qualms on my end.
Mother Night is the nothingness that precedes Creation. Her realm is just darkness and emptiness even in dreams and her union with Time brought about everything from the Void. I think she should have a Void manipulation. Since all things will return to her eventually.
Mother Night already has void manipulation, it's just indexed as "nothingness manipulation" on her profile for some reason. At any rate, I'm fine with void manipulation staying, but you definitely need to gather the statements/scans for it.
 
He created the Book of Destiny when all was still just empty. Not to mention, he is a sort of unity with Night and all possibility from nothingness was born of the two.

So he can use “nothingness” or “emptiness” to create things like the Book, Destiny, and indirectly the First Circle. Plus, he scales to his partner and his children.
Mother Night already has void manipulation, it's just indexed as "nothingness manipulation" on her profile for some reason. At any rate, I'm fine with void manipulation staying, but you definitely need to gather the statements/scans for it.
I assumed it was common knowledge.
 
Quantum fields are a real thing that make up the fabric of our reality at the deepest level, with all particles being excitations of energy in them where they don't perfectly cancel themselves, and they're not conceptual in the slightest, so this should be axed.
This is awful reasoning. You need to prove that DC's Quantum Field is exactly like its irl self, which very much isn't.
 
He created the Book of Destiny when all was still just empty. Not to mention, he is a sort of unity with Night and all possibility from nothingness was born of the two.

So he can use “nothingness” or “emptiness” to create things like the Book, Destiny, and indirectly the First Circle. Plus, he scales to his partner and his children.
Okay, done.
 
Can we just remove Mandrakk's “PM” as well? There's nothing he did that's remotely close to having that ability. Stories in the context of Final Crisis are used interchangeably with worlds, material, etc. It just sounds profound but that's it.

Eating stories would be the equivalent of eating worlds and heroes.
 
This is awful reasoning. You need to prove that DC's Quantum Field is exactly like its irl self, which very much isn't.
I wouldn't like to invoke other verses, but another verse recently lost conceptual manipulation because their justifications were "time governs reality and is independent from it," which is just how regular time works in real life. It needs evidence of existing as an abstraction for concept manipulation to be given. In a similar sense, the quantum field being a fundamental aspect of reality that governs it doesn't make it a concept inherently.
 
Elaine Belloc scales for the Presence of who made Creation and the Endless are by-products. Lucifer literally mentions they are just there because the Presence allows it and that cause-and-effect are not needed. Elaine when she reached Godhood said she became everyone and everything. The Presence determines everyone's fate and the plan contains everything including the personification of cause-and-effect: Destiny.

Michael is on the same level as Lucifer. Lucifer destroyed the garden which contains Tuski-Yomi who controlled the cause and effect of the Mansions. Michael also indirectly created everything since “Creation” power was embedded within him and Lucifer's laws affect everyone in his creation which energy to create all that was made by Michael. Lucifer destroyed them in the past so that there would never be an event in they become God, that's causality since he destroyed a cause and the effect was that the time paradox held that they never even ascended in the first place. It didn't affect the present because it never happened to begin with.

Basanos can literally manipulate, see, and make cause and effects hence why Elaine had to depower her.

The Endless should not have it except Destiny. The rest seem fine.

Conceptual Manipulation
This seems right except for Pralaya and Gabriel. Gabriel was one of three beings that formed all of Creation. Creation is a concept and he invokes “patterns” to things.

Pralaya is where Creation came from. Her mere presence destroys the conceptual plane of the Kingdom of Now as “Now” ends.
 
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This is awful reasoning. You need to prove that DC's Quantum Field is exactly like its irl self, which very much isn't.
I agree with Lawyer here. Perhaps DC's Quantum Field works differently, but there isn't much of a reason to assume that. The justification, as written, doesn't suggest Captain Atom can manipulate concepts in any way.
 
Quantum fields are not conceptual. Where's the evidence that DC's is?
The Quantum Field is heavily implied by Takion to be on a similar level to both the Speed Force and the Emotional Spectrum, as he states "The Quantum Field... Flash's speed field.... Lantern's power ring... all different... all the same... all aspects of the one power". The whole battle revolves around Takion trying to balance out and control all of these similar powers. Both of which are one of the main multiversal forces, and are also showcased to be fundamental parts of reality, similar to how the Quantum Field is shown to operate.

As for evidence of the Quantum Field not being similar to the irl version. Rasputin states that "I suspect the field doesn't really exist until you call upon it, up until that moment, it's only a theoretical possibility." There's also neverminding the fact that Captain Atom can still call upon it against Nekron in the world of the unliving, a spiritual realm.
 
The Quantum Field is heavily implied by Takion to be on a similar level to both the Speed Force and the Emotional Spectrum, as he states "The Quantum Field... Flash's speed field.... Lantern's power ring... all different... all the same... all aspects of the one power". The whole battle revolves around Takion trying to balance out and control all of these similar powers. Both of which are one of the main multiversal forces, and are also showcased to be fundamental parts of reality, similar to how the Quantum Field is shown to operate.

As for evidence of the Quantum Field not being similar to the irl version. Rasputin states that "I suspect the field doesn't really exist until you call upon it, up until that moment, it's only a theoretical possibility." There's also neverminding the fact that Captain Atom can still call upon it against Nekron in the world of the unliving, a spiritual realm.
^I second this.
 
This is awful reasoning. You need to prove that DC's Quantum Field is exactly like its irl self, which very much isn't.
No, it does not need to be exactly like its irl self to not be conceptual. OP is saying that making up reality at a fundamental level is something that can describe IRL quantum fields which are not conceptual
 
Also for the rest. Darkseid is fine ig. Tbh, I'm not too sure what does and doesn't qualify Causality.

I'm fine with everything in Invulnerability and Mathematics Manipulation.

Everyone else I can't say as I'm not too familiar with them.
 
The Quantum Field is heavily implied by Takion to be on a similar level to both the Speed Force and the Emotional Spectrum, as he states "The Quantum Field... Flash's speed field.... Lantern's power ring... all different... all the same... all aspects of the one power". The whole battle revolves around Takion trying to balance out and control all of these similar powers. Both of which are one of the main multiversal forces, and are also showcased to be fundamental parts of reality, similar to how the Quantum Field is shown to operate.
I am not sure where/how this results in concept manip. He's using the quantum field. Even if we consider it to be similar in nature to the emotional spectrum or speed force how does that help? We don't give all lanterns and speedsters concept manip for having access to those powers.

As for evidence of the Quantum Field not being similar to the irl version. Rasputin states that "I suspect the field doesn't really exist until you call upon it, up until that moment, it's only a theoretical possibility."
That's pretty much how its treated in real life, though. That entire sequence is pretty clearly the author's layman understanding of quantum physics. It isn't perfect (and certainly no one thinks this fictional superpower is 100% identical to a real world scientific theory) but yeah that's not really a big difference.

There's also neverminding the fact that Captain Atom can still call upon it against Nekron in the world of the unliving, a spiritual realm.
Most DC authors are either unaware of or deliberately ignore the notion that certain realms are supposed to be non-physical, so I would be wary of using this as an indication of pretty much anything. Speedsters can still move fast in spiritual realms, despite them supposedly lacking physics and a concept of spatial distance. People still go around punching each other, etc.
 
I am not sure where/how this results in concept manip. He's using the quantum field. Even if we consider it to be similar in nature to the emotional spectrum or speed force how does that help? We don't give all lanterns and speedsters concept manip for having access to those powers
I mean the thing is that they should, except for the fact no one has ever bothered to implement it.

Plus they'd only have limited CM like CA does. Not full on CM

Most DC authors are either unaware of or deliberately ignore the notion that certain realms are supposed to be non-physical, so I would be wary of using this as an indication of pretty much anything. Speedsters can still move fast in spiritual realms, despite them supposedly lacking physics and a concept of spatial distance. People still go around punching each other, etc.
I don't think this applies here, when Captain Atom was fighting against Nekron in his true form. And the whole arc revolved around Captain Atom interacting with the different deaths, it's pretty clear CA was supposed interacting with Nekron at his truest

Also to add on to my point, in Genesis #2, Highfather also repeats what Takion was saying, listing the Quantum Field as a fundamental force like the speed force and the emotional spectrum.
 
I mean the thing is that they should, except for the fact no one has ever bothered to implement it.
Why? They can't actually manipulate a concept.

Everything is a concept or has a concept of itself. Time and space are concepts, but space manip isn't concept manip unless you're explicitly manipulating the very concept of space itself.

I fail to see how having access to a power source which is purportedly conceptual (a point I am not completely convinced of) is concept manip in any capacity if the manifestation of this ability is pretty much purely physical. This seems like a fallacy of composition to me, that the overarching force has some conceptual nature therefore all instantiations of it or powers granted by it must therefore be a form of concept manip. That does not follow.

I don't think this applies here, when Captain Atom was fighting against Nekron in his true form. And the whole arc revolved around Captain Atom interacting with the different deaths, it's pretty clear CA was supposed interacting with Nekron at his truest
Of course, but this doesn't avoid the point I made prior, which is that authors just ignore or are not aware of the problem with a physical ability being used to fight a spiritual being. The vast majority of stories that take place in such realms treat physics as operating as expected. Like when Supergirl teleported to Apokolips without a boom tube and the result was she was physically smaller than other beings there. The very premise is pretty much nonsensical if you take Apokolips to be a non-physical realm.

Using such contradictions to reach conclusions like "well all of these characters must simply have conceptual abilities" I think is not the best way to go about this, personally.
 
For now I just agree with removing all the Acausality stuff mentioned in the OP and removing everything with no justification.

Edit: I also agree with removing all the causality stuff for the OP's reasons.
 
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destruction of the endless has no justification for
  • immortality 1, 3 and 4
  • reality warping
  • energy manip
  • time manip
  • matter manip
  • spatial manip
  • causality manip
  • flight
  • telepathy

there is more
these abilities should be removed too
I think this CRT was only meant for the higher end hax because if we removed all unjustified abilities, most of the god-tiers would flat out not have anything left in their P&A sections.
 
yeah? the abilities are unjustified so it should be removed
we cant just act like they have those abilities with 0 proof
there is nothing we can do but to remove it
My only concern is that such would lead to profile deletions, but by the end of the day, I guess you're right. It's likely just for the best.
 
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