The Presence quick additions

[ABoogieYesSir]

The Presence is also call "God"

 

[Hykuu]

exactly, with a capital G, thats like entire point of the presence, hes the one true god above all the others "gods" in creation like the new gods, skyfathers etc.

 

[TheGuest7]

Mike Carey's The Presence has no beginning as the latter is "infinite and eternel". So, it could not be created by mankind´s beliefs.

True, I´m infinite and eternal. But even I was shaped by forces external to me. You know what they are.
From Lucifer (2000) #75

But like any DC´s entities , Mike Carey's The Presence bounds himself to mankind's idea/concept on "God", "Creator", "Maker", giving it a shape. That's what he explained to Elaine Belloc during their meeting :

I have to look like something that you know. To attach myself to a concept your mind can grasp.
From Lucifer (2000) #68

The case of The Presence is different from the other gods, since the latter have a beginning, in the realm of Dream.

All gods begin in my realm, Caius Octavius. They walk your world for a span, and when they are old the return to my world, to die.
From The Sandman (1989) #30

 

[Hykuu]

^^^^^

you are way better at wording those points than me lol

 

[Sandman31]

>Mike Carey's The Presence has no beginning as the latter is "infinite and eternel". So, it could not be created by mankind´s beliefs.

Doesnt really prove anything when dreams retroactively rewrite creation, which means it doesnt really matter. Him being infinite and eternal doesnt really mean he wasnt created by dreams especially when the next line he stated that he was shaped by dreams which Mike Carey then proceeded to clarify on twitter that hes referring to the power of dreams

>But like any DC´s entities , Mike Carey's The Presence bounds himself to mankind's idea/concept on "God", "Creator", "Maker", giving it a shape. That's what he explained to Elaine Belloc during their meeting

Dont know why youre using scans from the Sandman Universe storyline when they completely ignore the Lucifer run by Mike Carey

>I have to look like something that you know. To attach myself to a concept your mind can grasp.

Lol thats not what he explained to Elaine during their meeting. Are you saying that Elaines mom is God because he also change to that as well. Its simply the Presence, who is a really formless entity, tries to find a shape which Elaine is ccomfortable with, thats it. Nothing to do with what youre saying

>The case of The Presence is different from the other gods, since the latter have a beginning, in the realm of Dream.

All gods begin in my realm, Caius Octavius. They walk your world for a span, and when they are old the return to my world, to die.

You have yet to give evidence why theyre not when there are tons of evidence points otherwise. The titan brothers even went to the Dreaming first when they were trying to replace Yahweh but got booted out so they did it the hard way via time travel and reenacting the miracles in bible

 

[TheGuest7]

Doesnt really prove anything when dreams retroactively rewrite creation, which means it doesnt really matter. Him being infinite and eternal doesnt really mean he wasnt created by dreams especially when the next line he stated that he was shaped by dreams which Mike Carey then proceeded to clarify on twitter that hes referring to the power of dreams

I don't know which of the two Neil Gaieman stories you're referring to, but the dreams did not create the Creation. And it is your point that humanity created The Presence, while in the Neil Gaieman stories you refer to , humanity has only changed Creation since the beginning of time. Irrevelant point.

The fact that The Presence is "infinite and eternal", and would be created by humanity is a contradiction: The Presence has always existed and was created? Lol. Mike Carey only said that we create our own gods. In DC, each belief has in its own god who is, in reality, the same god. As previously mentioned, we only create the form, rather, what they would look like according to our belief system.

Dont know why youre using scans from the Sandman Universe storyline when they completely ignore the Lucifer run by Mike Carey
Perhaps because it is a recent element, I could have very well used the scan in which The Endless are "represented" in Greek greek belief system since the point is that it is the same entity in substance, but different in form according to the belief system. What you haven't understood so far.

Lol thats not what he explained to Elaine during their meeting. Are you saying that Elaines mom is God because he also change to that as well. Its simply the Presence, who is a really formless entity, tries to find a shape which Elaine is ccomfortable with, thats it. Nothing to do with what youre saying
The scan serves as an example, and as The Presence says, the fact that it takes on the appearance of Ellaine Belloc's mother is on a metaphorical level since:

your blood is my blood.
I don't understand how you literally took it in this scan, when The Presence says it's metaphorical.

That being said, the point is that, as you say: The Presence, who is a really formless entity, tries to find a shape which Elaine is ccomfortable with. The Presence, like any other in DC, bound themselves to a concept in the mind, and takes a form within the reach of the person's comprehension.

 

[TheGuest7]

> You have yet to give evidence why theyre not when there are tons of evidence points otherwise. The titan brothers even went to the Dreaming first when they were trying to replace Yahweh but got booted out so they did it the hard way via time travel and reenacting the miracles in bible

The point? Lol. I'm sorry, but this point doesn't even assert that The Presence was created by humanity or x. Only that they tried to become God of creation. In DC, "God" is only a function. So I don't see the correlation with that "The Presence was created".

 

[Sandman31]

>I don't know which of the two Neil Gaieman stories you're referring to, but the dreams did not create the Creation. And it is your point that humanity created The Presence, while in the Neil Gaieman stories you refer to , humanity has only changed Creation since the beginning of time. Irrevelant point.

The fact that The Presence is infinite and eternal is a contradiction: The Presence has always existed and was created? Lol. Mike Carey only said that we create our own gods. In DC, each belief has in its own god who is, in reality, the same god. As previously mentioned, we only create the form, rather, what they would look like according to our belief system.'

Dont know where in my comment where I said that dreams created Creation. I said it recreates it. The first Creation (Which was explicitly said to have existed before the Presence) came from the union of Time and Night. In the Dreaming and Lucifer, youll find out that dreams recreate creation beyond time itself. It rewrite the origin of creation itself

>The point? Lol. I'm sorry, but this point doesn't even assert that The Presence was created by humanity or x. Only that they tried to become God of creation. In DC, "God" is only a function. So I don't see the correlation with that "The Presence was created".

Whats the point? The point is that someone could literally become the Presence by using the Dreaming. You can become the Presence by manipulating beliefs and dreams. Thats the point.

 

[TheGuest7]

> Dont know where in my comment where I said that dreams created Creation. I said it recreates it. The first Creation (Which was explicitly said to have existed before the Presence) came from the union of Time and Night. In the Dreaming and Lucifer, youll find out that dreams recreate creation beyond time itself. It rewrite the origin of creation itself

What you're saying is contradictory since Time marks the birth of the universe . As a result, dreams could only have change Creation since the beginning of time. This would be, in the idea, the continuity of A Dream of a Thousand Cats cats in which humanity has changed the creation since the beginning of time through dreams.

But show me a scan in which it is explicitly written that dreams have changed creation beyond time.

Concerning The Presence in this story, it would seem that he would be the Void, since, like Grant Morrison's Void , the universe exists in his mind .

Whats the point? The point is that someone could literally become the Presence by using the Dreaming. You can become the Presence by manipulating beliefs and dreams. Thats the point.
It is one of the ways to become the God of creation. As said before, in DC, "God" is a function. This position was held by The Presence, then by Ellaine Belloc. I repeat myself, but it's just a function : Wotan tried also to became 'God', but he became blinded . EDIT: and taking into account the context for The Presence, it was following his departure. So creation was missing a "God".

 

[Sandman31]

Anyway, I'm unfollowing this thread since this is becoming too long. I believe that the Presence is the top god. Hes above the Endless and everyone in Creation but as youve said the role of top god is merely a role. Theres tons of evidences that the Presence wasnt always and was not the only God (beings created by other god, creations that predates Presence himself etc). Thats just for the Sandman storyline Presence though, I think outside of that he's much more powerful than is stated on the profile

Apologies if I misinterpreted what some of you guys said or if I appear more hostile than what I intended. English is my 3rd language so I still dont have full mastery of it.

 

[Sandman31]

Theres going to be a DC revision concerning this so you can argue there

Also, I got ninja'd

 

[Antvasima]

So is there anything left to do here? Or can I close this thread?

 

[Sandman31]

Close it. This thread got derailed enough.

 

[Hykuu]

apply the changes and close it Ig, maybe not the endless stuff if sandman still disagrees

 

[Sandman31]

And this is going to come up in a revison thread later anyway

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this then.