J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Revision

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Semantics are not really not needed. However, we have to remember as the person stated above the dreams is the hierarchy.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Preamble​

Oooh boy, how do I put this...

I know I was giving off the impression that I would change my mind after looking through everything, but after reading it all, I still found myself disagreeing with pretty much everything here.

Material Plane(Gross)​

Here there are parallel universes and infinite dimensions. (Larfleeze Vol.1 #5)
Dimensions are boundless in nature since everything is infinite in nature. (Larfleeze Vol.1 #3)
Through spaces and stars and across all of Creation are infinite dimensions. Different parallel realities. (Highlighting spatial dimensions given Corps takes place in space and the universes are infinite in size and one beings embodies space and time) (Larfleeze Vol.1 #4)

I am very confused about the inclusion of these Larfleeze storyline statements. The word "dimension" was explicitly used in reference to parallel universes in this storyline. This appears to be something acknowledged in the OP as well. Upon asking you however, you seem to have changed your interpretation into something more abstract ("it could mean plenty of things")? I don't understand... we already use these scans as part of our 2-A DeMatteis cosmology justifications. Was it intended to be supporting evidence for something? I don't know how to address this without a straight answer regarding their purpose. Regardless, I couldn't help but notice a couple problems.

Dimensions are boundless in nature since everything is infinite in nature. (Larfleeze Vol.1 #3)

The scan makes no mention of this, it just says there are boundless dimensions, in other words, 2-A cosmology. Nothing about universes being infinite in size (it even says the universe has corners), or infinite higher dimensional mass, or even "everything is infinite in nature" as you claim. What's the deal with the raw text varying so hard from the interpretations of them posted here? It's becoming a pattern...

Through spaces and stars and across all of Creation are infinite dimensions. Different parallel realities. (Highlighting spatial dimensions given Corps takes place in space and the universes are infinite in size and one beings embodies space and time) (Larfleeze Vol.1 #4)

I don't see where this "spatial dimension" stuff is coming from.

Through infinite doorways to worlds. Where theis places had dimensional skies that whirled down endlessly. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #33)

This scan is also used for the 2-A DeMatteis cosmology justifications, so I once again question the purpose of their inclusion. Is it supposed to be supporting evidence for something?

Some parts are dreams within the Dream of Creations and it’s mirrors illusions. (Adventures of Superman Vol.1 #586)

That scan doesn't seem to say what you think it does? "Dream within the dream of creation" has two parts to it.
1. "Dream of Creation" referring to creation being a dream, which is obvious, as DeMatteis portrays all of creation as a dream belonging to the Divine Presence.
2. "Dream within dream" in that very scan is literally just referring to how Superman is fighting an illusionary army, which are akin to living dreams within the greater dream of creation.

The universe is technically endless(used in conjunction to infinite) (Superman: Kanas Sighting Vol.1 #1)

This is contradicted by how it's stated to have an edge multiple times, as explained in the cosmology page:

Universes in DC are far larger than the observable universe of our real world. While some stories from the different continuities treat a universe as infinite, this is contradicted by multiple stories about entities and items traveling "from the edge of the universe" or "across the entire universe" or "from every corner of the universe" not to mention the Source Wall which is the limit of the universe and as such, a universe is finite in size.

It should be noted that the statements of an infinite-sized universe are, as quoted above, contradicted by the mere fact that it has an edge and probably mean a single universe in DC Comics is immeasurably large rather than being truly infinite as suggested in the three scans above.

Since there are a number of verses on this site with the same situation (multiple infinite size statements, contradicted by depictions of an edge), I posted a thread asking how we handle such cases with an admin weighing in too. The common consensus is that edge anti-feats can't be dismissed and would nullify any number of infinite size statements for a universe. In otherwords, this statement can't be used.

Through undreamed universes that even minds haven't imagined. (Green Lantern: Willworld Vol.1 #1)
With entire universes parallel to Hal Jordan being dreamed of in an ocean of dreams with a materialistic view as one of them (Green Lantern: Willworld Vol.1 #1)
Each mind can express and create entire universes neighboring each other in an ocean of dreams. Even with the dreaming sense of the universe, there are still more levels that dreams are within dreams. (Green Lantern: Willworlds Vol.1 #1)

The justifications don't seem to have changed here, so I'll just quote my last response:

Let me explain why I don't think the argument for the collective unconscious having a hierarchy holds up.

As we should all know, the word parallel entails something being coplanar, or existing on a single plane. That phrase is literally an antonym for and the greatest contradiction to higher dimensionality. It's no different from the text outright telling you "this isn't higher dimensional." I've seen 2 counter arguments, none of which I feel are genuine.

1. "It's obvious that the dreams which are depicted as parallel worlds belong to one layer."

This argument falls into headcanon territory. It's entirely based off how those parallel worlds in the image were called "willworlds," and assumes that these dreams are the exception and the other dreams are a legitimate hierarchy. This is honestly a special pleading argument. If we're already shown that dream worlds exist in parallel, how do you expect me to buy from that point forward that there is legitimate R>F? With such a precedent established, the presumption is now that all dream worlds exist in parallel until proven otherwise, and I haven't seen any actual scans or evidence to suggest that the non-willworld dreams have legitimate R>F or can be justified as an exception.

2. Let's just ignore the parallelism anti-feat, they're literally depicted as dreams! You're just being disingenuous by disregarding that!

The standards say that such anti-feats should not be ignored, and saying they should for no good reason is textbook special pleading fallacy.

Qualifiers​

In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

In edge cases, where it is unclear whether a depiction qualifies as truly viewing a world as fiction, the most important deciding factor is whether the depiction justifies an assumption of qualitative superiority for the same reasons as the above mentioned general cases. I.e. one should ask oneself: Is it by nature of the depiction likely that nothing that happens in the 'fictional world', no matter how powerful, could affect the 'real world' due to the fictional nature of the former?

However, there are also factors that can speak against Reality-Fiction Transcendence, even if all of the above is given. Those include:

• The realities are portrayed like parallel universes or otherwise as having just a finite difference in scale or having a similar nature.
• The characters from both realities are generally being portrayed as comparable in power
• The author character completely live in the fictional medium themselves. For example the author character might have a book that contains the world, but the author themselves are also a character in it and don't exist outside it any more than other characters of that world.
• The fictional characters being able to attack the real ones without being shown to somehow have transcended their fictional world or having special abilities that allow it. Such instances often have to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis to judge how they are best rated.

It says right there that even if something is successfully depicted as a medium for viewing another thing as fiction, a factor like the realities having a finite difference in scale or being parallel worlds would rule out R>F. It's even worse here, because it's not like the dreams are successfully depicted as existing in a hierarcy in the first place, and it's obvious that "dreaming something" is equivalent to creating a parallel world rather than an infinitesimal lower plane of existence. I also don't think anyone addressed my point about how the "dreaming each other" part makes no sense, because does reality-1 view reality-2 as fiction, or is it the other way around?

I haven't seen anything sufficiently addressing the anti-feat for the dreams being stated to exist in parallel. My first point already captures my problem with the whole "the parallel dreams are part of one level" rebunk. And for the third time, no one has addressed my last point in bolded text here.

Material Plane Conclusion​

Thus the Gross could reach up to twelve dimensions.

The "12 dimensions" statement was a gag, as I explained before in-depth. I'll just copy-paste:

Let's talk about that statement. After news of the alien abductions gains public traction, a crowd of nutjobs and conspiracy theorists gather around Herbert Moore's house awaiting alien arrivals. One lunatic in underpants and a red alien suit harasses Mr. Moore, and asks him to take them and the crowd to the 12th dimension in an entranced tone. You even have more reasonable people in the crowd being sarcastic about his antics. This interaction took place in the second issue of the storyline, on the page indexed in the scan.

To put it simply, this statement wasn't depicted as something meant to be taken seriously. You have to read the issue to understand it, otherwise I might come off as "oh, I'll just dismiss statements at random," but let me illustrate as best I can. As I said, the guy who made the statement was a lunatic, which is something onlookers acknowledge. It wasn't like knowledgeable characters were speculating higher dimensions, and it wasn't like 12 dimensions were confirmed to exist by godly or otherwise reliable sources. Hell, the interaction with the nutjob wasn't even portrayed as a cuckoolander was right sort of trope. In no manner whatsoever was the 12-D statement depicted by the author as something genuinely pertaining to cosmology. A better way to phrase it is that unless you're viewing this scan strictly through a power scaling lens and ignore all the context surrounding it, nothing would lead an average/critical reader to give it any weight. 12 dimensions were never genuinely introduced within the story, nor are there 12 speculative dimensions we can scale the aliens above.

Anway...

The Gross is infinite but limited in its sense, that one plane is simply a fiction to another,

1. Once again, not remotely what's said in the raw text.
2. Everything in that storyline about Reality-Fiction transcendence was about how the collective unconscious transcends the multiverse, nothing about a new hierarchy of planes and the gaps between them. The metaphysical planes are already accepted as Low 1-C, so knowing that the collective unconscious's baseline transcends creation adds nothing to the cosmology.

However, do note this was specifically within this story as the rest of the time, dimension is used interchangeably with higher reality, since the Universe is infinite and layered, each level has a specific dimensionality.

What the...? It just says that there are levels of dreams, and shifting through these levels is like "tumbling through dimensions." Dimension is blatantly being used as a synonym for realm/universe in this scan.

Prelude to Higher Planes(Mental and Beyond)​

A lot of people were confused as to why I've rejected R>F for the "layers of dreams," so I will explain why by quoting this excerpt from the FAQ:

Q: How do I determine if something is "transcendent"?​

A: "Transcendence" is a vague term which can be used in several contexts, many of which do not at all align with how it is normally used in our forums, as it simply means "to go beyond the ordinary", first and foremost. For example, statements of "transcending space and time" can refer to things like time travel, dimensional travel, or even agelessness in some cases. Hence, it is very preferable to ascertain the meaning of statements involving this term from background context (If there is any), being especially careful around flowery language or purple prose.

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.

They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.

You might think "but it says there that higher planes can hold qualitative superiority by being comparatively "more real," right?" My focus is on the "higher planes" part. For one thing, "higher plane" often doesn't indicate anything for a cosmology past a locational difference, such as how heaven is considered a higher plane relative to hell. Another pitfall the FAQ didn't take note of is instances where "transcendent" or "higher plane" refers to a spiritual transcendence rather than a dimensional transcendence.

The transcendence in this sense, is not about a physical or material superiority, but rather a spiritual or metaphysical one. Higher planes, in their transcendental nature, may be perceived as existing on a different plane of reality that is more attuned to spiritual or metaphysical principles. This can include aspects like a heightened state of being, a closer connection to fundamental truths or divine forces, or an existence in a realm beyond the constraints of the physical world. Hence, my mentality throughout this is that the statements pertaining to the planes in heaven seemed to denote a spiritual transcendence rather than a dimensional one.

Higher Planes(Mental and Beyond)​

There are planes above the world we live in physically. That when a Soul lives it’s next life, it transcends beyond just the material plane as such Heaven. Some beings through their psyche can descend upon levels into worlds, heavens, et cetera. Each form in each level will be transcended until all endless forms are transcended. (Supergirl: Wings Vol.1 #1). Angels are thoughts and forms of the God that could be perceived through the veils and all levels
of Creation. (Green Lantern: Willworlds Vol.1 #1)

Supporting evidence at best, all I see implied is a spiritual transcendence. The scans are clearly saying that each individual person's heaven is tailored to their belief system, and that heaven gives each soul a different realm. Basically, they only state that there are different heavens for souls with different learning needs before reincarnation. Also, one of the scans used for "levels of reality" seems to come from the Willworld storyline I mentioned earlier where these dreams were stated to exist in parallel?

Heaven: Some Souls venture even further from conventional Heaven when souls turn to pure energy. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #17) This is quite the deal because each Soul is a fragment of infinite consciousness like God working on levels. Thus like droplets to the Ocean without a shore, each consciousness is as infinite as the fragments of the infinite. (Adventures of Superman Vol.1 #584). Some planes are far above each other and in different incarnations of life on different planes remove one layer of the endless, limitless plane across all of Existence and our being to find the One True Creator. Perhaps that's the Golden Age we aspire to be in. (Spectre Vol.4 #3) This happens in the beginning and the endless end with the Soul venturing through countless lifetimes until they reach that ocean of love with him again connected by the Oversoul, by the Avatar, the magical last dance. Each soul is tailor-made to their faith thus each faith finds its version of Heaven and there are many Heavens for each Soul. While these Souls are in serenity and bliss, Heaven is a place that transcends the material world, thus the “days” within Heaven transcend those of the material plane with some places having non-time. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #8). Heaven and what levels there is to it is a level deeper than material, closer to God as we dwell deeper into the Mystery. (Spectre Vol.4 #20)

The supporting evidence is well and good, but once again, I see nothing but spiritual transcendence. There's the fact that Heaven's baseline transcends the material world with full R>F, but we already consider Heaven Low 1-C for that reason. What we're looking for is the relationship between individual planes within Heaven.

Hell: Some planes like Hell are not places but of consciousness since humans make their own Hell and not God. (Phamton Stranger Vol.4 #9) There are as many hells we make of our consciousness, humans and gods all collectively make any and all dreams with one beyond all of them. (Superman: Man of Tomorrow Vol.1 #15) Each thing is the shadow behind shadows, to the truer part and each layer is man taking away their limitation until they meet God.

Once again, all I see is spiritual transcendence.

Kingdom of Now: This place is the place beyond the infinite illusory of realities defined as mirrors. While those mirrors are of inverted time, this place is non-time and non-local to the below realities with past and future. A place of in-between beyond between where all moments are now, a twilight of the worlds/planes as they never end. A place of only one instance living beyond that of what infinity describes. Where every breath is infinite and each step finds and contains eternity, where you may see all the universes in the grains of sand or all the heavens in a fruit. A place of paradoxes because it's only “now.”(Justice League Dark Vol.1 #37)

So it's a void that encompasses the dream universes, just as bleedspace does for the multiverse?

Shattered Now/Mirrors of Illusions: This place is the place beyond the infinite illusory of realities defined as mirrors. Where every moment is defined simultaneously across all versions of Justice League Dark members as distorted memories and versions of them. Everything stays there as is as all things come together and everything only becomes undiluted, thus waves and waves of these illusions come at them. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #37)

Nice, there are infinite dreams. At least everyone can agree with that bit.

Collective Unconcious: This is not a conventional realm but a state of a place purely of the psyche. Where all imagination comes forth from this realm of consciousness and birth and creates monsters of every kind like Trans or Blight. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #24). A place of non-time with only what the mind can create making both time and distance as useless concepts unless you make it. This place is where things of the mind manifest and are considered metaphysical in nature. Everything has the same definition here like mind and matter so we can create our personal universes, entire realities that are beyond the ones we left. A sea of colorful texture manifesting archetypes and symbols from which the mind imagines. (JLA/Spectre: Souls War Vol.1 #2)

At best, I can see statements for the collective unconscious transcending the multiverse (which once again, we already accept since it's tiered at Low 1-C).

With each being in higher reality has a state of existence, of consciousness where even concepts like dimensions no longer apply, only levels of existence at that point. Remember the entire concept of dimension whether spatial or temporal or any levels of infinite limited to the aliens much less the Dreamer himself, who is us. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #24). All this is connected to the World Tree. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #38).

Transcending dimensions/beyond dimensional scale/beyond the concept of dimensions is outerverse level, huh (also, the word "concept" wasn't used in the scan)? Kid named tiering system faq:

Q: What tier is transcending dimensions?​

A: As specified above, a "dimension" is nothing more than a set of values representing a given direction within a system, and a multi-dimensional space can itself be thought of as a multiplication of several "copies" of these sets. For instance, the 3-dimensional space in which we live is often visualized as the set of all 3-tuples of real numbers (Thus, taking its values from the real number line, R), and is thus the result of the iterated multiplication: R x R x R = R³, likewise, 4-dimensional space is the set of all 4-tuples of real numbers, and is thus equal to R x R x R x R = R⁴, and so on and so forth.

Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, the class of all sets)

As a result, it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on No-Limits Fallacies. Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context.

Q: What tier does a character being beyond dimensions equate to?​

A: This would need to be evaluated similar to statements about transcending space and time. If the character is beyond dimensions in the sense of being qualitatively superior to them then they should be only one level of qualitative superiority above however many dimensions the verse is known to have. This is because such a statement would usually refer to the dimensions that the verse has, and not include theoretical dimensions.

It's only 1-A if you have an infinite hierarchy to begin with.

Other Qualitative Superiority Evidence​

Dreams aren't merely simple "dreams", higher dreams can replace what is reality and become more real to it, and there would be another higher dream above it, as shown here; Dreams was able to replace reality, when it was only being viewed as fiction, and afterwards another one can ascend to another higher dream if allowed by God.
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I don't see this interpretation expressed in the scans at all, just more spiritual transcendence. Where in the scans does it depict "higher dreams replacing reality and viewing former realities as fiction?" They're ascending into higher dreams and leaving former dreams behind, and that's about it. I don't see where it depicts "viewing lesser realities as fiction as you keep transcending."

Summary​

• The OP is very bloated at parts. Ignoring how half of it is exploring DeMatteis's inspirations to provide "context," many of the scans cited just explain things that are already accepted for the cosmology, some of which are on the cosmology page as we speak, so their inclusion served no effective purpose. It's not made clear what parts diverge from the current cosmology.
• The actual scans read different from the text in the OP. Several times, I've seen instances where the interpretation of the scans differed drastically from the actual raw text.
• Amid questioning from myself and Deagonx, I came to notice that the supporters often don't know what they're arguing for with certain scans. Every time you ask them what we're supposed to take from provided pages, either their answers vary every time, or they openly admit that "it could mean lots of things." I feel like it's a little disorganized to create a CRT loaded with scans, and not have a clear idea of what their premises even are. I can't even get a clear idea of the arguments being made at points.
• This post does not effectively address the issue of the dream worlds being consistently called universes and being outright stated to exist in parallel. The general argument is that they're also called layers and higher planes, but realistically speaking, none of that serves to rebunk the parallelism anti-feat. It's not exactly uncommon for us to see cosmologies which are "layered" or have "higher planes of existence," but those different planes don't have enough evidence of physical superiority and are therefore relegated to being Low 2-C sized constructs.
• Words like "beyond" and "transcend" are too vague to gleam qualitative superiority from, and indicate nothing more than a spiritual transcendence.
• When it comes down to it, the only supporting evidence is how higher dreams were stated to be "deeper" or "truer," but not only is that not clear enough to derive qualitative superiority from as it is, such is contradicted by the noticably finite gaps between layers.

Conclusion​

I've cited the R>F standards a number of times, but for now, I want to focus on this excerpt only.

However, there are also factors that can speak against Reality-Fiction Transcendence, even if all of the above is given. Those include:

• The realities are portrayed like parallel universes or otherwise as having just a finite difference in scale or having a similar nature.
• The characters from both realities are generally being portrayed as comparable in power
• The author character completely live in the fictional medium themselves. For example the author character might have a book that contains the world, but the author themselves are also a character in it and don't exist outside it any more than other characters of that world.
• The fictional characters being able to attack the real ones without being shown to somehow have transcended their fictional world or having special abilities that allow it. Such instances often have to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis to judge how they are best rated.

This OP is pretty long, but to summarize it for the evaluating staff members, it was made with one intent only: to disregard the parallelism anti-feats by providing as much evidence as possible for the dreams also being higher planes. Let me oversimplfy the main arguments made and respond to them.

• Sure the dreams were stated to exist in parallel, but they're also called higher planes and higher levels of reality.

My greatest problem with the OP is that it massively downplays how much impact the word "parallel" holds against their argument. The word parallel isn't just a vague synonym for "neighboring," is means two things exist on the same geometric space, hold the same slope, and share a single axis. The word parallel is no different from a verbatim statement that something isn't a qualitatively higher dimension. The parallel dreams being called higher levels or planes doesn't mean change anything. It's possible to have multiple universes, where one universe is portrayed as higher or more divine than the other, but there's not enough superiority regarding size, mass, or other physical properties for the higher universes to be scaled anywhere other than Low 2-C.

• The dreams were stated to be higher layers that transcend one another, where you become closer and closer to enlightenment as you ascend.

All this denotes is spiritual superiority (as I explained in-depth above regarding the rules for higher planes of existence), definitely not the kind of physical superiority we're looking for. I don't even thinks that counts for so much as supporting evidence.

• But higher dreams were stated to be more real, which means R>F difference.

The problem is, after discarding the other supporting evidence, this is the only one that works in favor of proving R>F, and it's not enough. For one thing, you'd usually at least need evidence of a medium through which a cosmology can be viewed as fiction (such as being "contained" in a dream or storybook), and there seems to be no evidence of dreams physically being within dreams as they're consistently depicted as parallel worlds. So this on its own, is insufficient. All this "higher, truer" dream stuff just pertains to achieving enlightenment in higher planes of existence.

For another thing, after going through these scans, the characters from lower and higher dreams seem to be generally portrayed as comparable in power and existence, unlike with something akin to the Unwritten, where beings of higher narrative layers can freely manipulate lower layers (which are stated to be physically contained as worlds within worlds, mind you) to the point of adding higher dimensional spaces to lower narratives.

And lastly, this hierarchy of dreams violates another major anti-feat to R>F transcendence where fictional characters can attack real ones without having transcended their worlds or holding special abilities. This one is mostly case-by-case, but the metaphysical planes seem to violate this. There is the Kingdom of Now mentioned in the OP, and it's portrayed as a space encompassing all the dreams. By the looks of it, jumping from dream world to dream world requires simple dimensional travel. Even in the Dr. Fate scans, hopping between dreams also seems to require simple flight and dimensional travel. Same with scans like this, where at best, attaining spiritual enlightenment would allow regular people to ascend to higher planes. Definitely not the kind of reality-breaking, "they broke into the real world" kind of special abilities.

All in all, I believe that the gap between dreams serves as insufficient evidence for qualitative superiority. Not only is there minimal evidence that can be used genuinely, but the little proof we have is contradicted by a swath of anti-feats like the dreams existing in parallel and explicitly finite gaps between layers that require simple dimensional travel to cross. I've used this term "special pleading" a few times the last weeks. To elaborate, it's a fallacy which generally holds two characteristics: dismissing evidence that works against your favor, and demanding that evidence working against you be dismissed without a valid reason. We've had hundreds of threads evaluating R>F layers for different verses, and I see nothing that sets DC apart from verses which have been rejected for following the anti-feats. Regardless, a number of people think anti-feats such as dreams being parallel worlds or having finite gaps should be up and dismissed for no good reason. Anyway, everything I've said has fallen on deaf ears by this point, so I'll refrain from participating or replying further unless the situation demands it (for instance, a staff member asking for clarification).

@ProfectusInfinity Care to comment?

Hey Lawyer, could you do me a favor and tag more people? It can't just be my opinion over and over, so I need people listed as knowledgeable members on tier 1 to provide input as to whether or not this meets/violates the standards for R>F based on me and the OP's arguments.

• Rakih Elyan
• PrinceofPein
• Qawsedf234
• You're a knowledgeable member too, so I'd like to hear your perspective.

Besides that, if you're also willing, I need help tagging more evaluating staff to this CRT.

• Deagonx
• Eficiente
• DarkDragonMedeus
• Firestorm808
• Armorchompy

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Hey Lawyer, could you do me a favor and tag more people? It can't just be my opinion over and over, so I need people listed as knowledgeable members on tier 1 to provide input as to whether or not this meets/violates the standards for R>F based on me and the OP's arguments.

• Rakih Elyan
• PrinceofPein
• Qawsedf234
• You're a knowledgeable member too, so I'd like to hear your perspective.

Besides that, if you're also willing, I need help tagging more evaluating staff to this CRT.

• @Deagonx
• @Eficiente
• @DarkDragonMedeus
• @Firestorm808
• @Armorchompy

@Rakih_Elyan @PrinceofPein @Qawsedf234 @Deagonx @Eficiente @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 @Armorchompy
I'm busy with exams, so I can't comment.

 

[Brahmatman]

That’s not the point. Yes, he writes within the DC Universe but how he structures his Cosmology and writes is different from mainline DC.

If some things were not shown, this does not mean that they do not exist. New gods have always been canonically abstract beings, although this was introduced later, and this contradicts past comics, but we cannot deny these statements. Doomsday has also always been an abstract entity, although in past appearances he was simply a mindless animal. What I mean is that the mere fact of the absence of something does not exclude the presence

We don’t see beings like Pralaya

Lucifer v3. Even though she didn't appear in person

or God

He can be made equivalent to Yahweh, although shown differently. Even stranger, Yahweh has always been shown and iterated in different ways, so it doesn't really prevent different interpretations from existing together

Dream Theory

Morpheus and Bleed

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Material Plane(Gross)​

I am very confused about the inclusion of these Larfleeze storyline statements. The word "dimension" was explicitly used in reference to parallel universes in this storyline. This appears to be something acknowledged in the OP as well. Upon asking you however, you seem to have changed your interpretation into something more abstract ("it could mean plenty of things")? I don't understand... we already use these scans as part of our 2-A DeMatteis cosmology justifications. Was it intended to be supporting evidence for something? I don't know how to address this without a straight answer regarding their purpose. Regardless, I couldn't help but notice a couple problems.

The scan makes no mention of this, it just says there are boundless dimensions, in other words, 2-A cosmology. Nothing about universes being infinite in size (it even says the universe has corners), or infinite higher dimensional mass, or even "everything is infinite in nature" as you claim. What's the deal with the raw text varying so hard from the interpretations of them posted here? It's becoming a pattern...

It clearly states that dimensions are boundless as their size are unquantifiable with how Matteis treats wording would most likely be an equivalence of infinite. This is pretty common to see as dimensions is used in conjunction to the quantity of worlds when we use dimensions interchangeably with parallel reality. This means a Universe is infinite and because dimensions there is used interchangeable with parallel reality there are infinite parallel realities. Which again as we all recognize as 2-A.

The infinite in nature is because the Material is technically infinite in space that occupy these parallel worlds and dimensions as stated by Sena. The Material like any other realms are also divided and most being occupied by those realms and dimensions while being the lowest part of the Dream of hierarchies.

I don't see where this "spatial dimension" stuff is coming from.

Spatial dimension is any vector points occupying space moving in directions. Sena was going through Creation point for all space since her consciousness literally embodies time and space. Her nature is spatial just with a form of her choosing and her dimesnion had many worlds as oppose to just one world per dimesnion.

This scan is also used for the 2-A DeMatteis cosmology justifications, so I once again question the purpose of their inclusion. Is it supposed to be supporting evidence for something?

This blog is highlighting each level and to compliment the higher ones. The bigger reason for the change comes later which should be the obvious contention. Also, the blog did not use this scan nor did it do anything to justify the spiral of dimensions through that energy doorway where each part leads to each worlds.

That scan doesn't seem to say what you think it does? "Dream within the dream of creation" has two parts to it.
1. "Dream of Creation" referring to creation being a dream, which is obvious, as DeMatteis portrays all of creation as a dream belonging to the Divine Presence.

That’s not what’s it’s at all implying. It was saying Superman is facing things in the dream of the Dream of Creation. These beings like him are in the dream within a bigger dream that is Creation.

2. "Dream within dream" in that very scan is literally just referring to how Superman is fighting an illusionary army, which are akin to living dreams within the greater dream of creation.

They are not akin to the dreams hierarchy. They come from a certain part as the scan reference them as dreams which is also part of where ever that dream is. Still notioning the layers and deepness of dreams within Creation. Superman, by virtue, is a dream within a dream of the Dream.

This is contradicted by how it's stated to have an edge multiple times, as explained in the cosmology page:


Since there are a number of verses on this site with the same situation (multiple infinite size statements, contradicted by depictions of an edge), I posted a thread asking how we handle such cases with an admin weighing in too. The common consensus is that edge anti-feats can't be dismissed and would nullify any number of infinite size statements for a universe. In otherwords, this statement can't be used.

Except it goes with Matteis stories since he does mention that Universes are infinite, this one example of him saying and the other plethora of examples he has with other stories.

The justifications don't seem to have changed here, so I'll just quote my last response:

I haven't seen anything sufficiently addressing the anti-feat for the dreams being stated to exist in parallel. My first point already captures my problem with the whole "the parallel dreams are part of one level" rebunk. And for the third time, no one has addressed my last point in bolded text here.

Material Plane Conclusion​

The "12 dimensions" statement was a gag, as I explained before in-depth. I'll just copy-paste:

Anway...

1. Once again, not remotely what's said in the raw text.

I am well aware not to do that but you don’t seem to know why it was mentioned. You’re free to believe this weird notion of anything the crowd would say is the 12th Dimesnion when the Universe is endless thus with all the other statements, you find that unbelievable. Your notion is almost just purely subjective and just ignorant to context and setting.

2. Everything in that storyline about Reality-Fiction transcendence was about how the collective unconscious transcends the multiverse, nothing about a new hierarchy of planes and the gaps between them. The metaphysical planes are already accepted as Low 1-C, so knowing that the collective unconscious's baseline transcends creation adds nothing to the cosmology.

The Collective Unconscious exist within anyone’s mind, it’s not just a singular place, it’s just the collective parts when you enter the entire realm. What they mention is of higher beings from higher reality, we don’t know where they came from but how we see them is just us believing they are “aliens.”

What the...? It just says that there are levels of dreams, and shifting through these levels is like "tumbling through dimensions." Dimension is blatantly being used as a synonym for realm/universe in this scan.

The scans is meant to decpuct that realms have dimensions. Each one has its own, I never specify the quantity for each one.

Prelude to Higher Planes(Mental and Beyond)​

A lot of people were confused as to why I've rejected R>F for the "layers of dreams," so I will explain why by quoting this excerpt from the FAQ:

You might think "but it says there that higher planes can hold qualitative superiority by being comparatively "more real," right?" My focus is on the "higher planes" part. For one thing, "higher plane" often doesn't indicate anything for a cosmology past a locational difference, such as how heaven is considered a higher plane relative to hell. Another pitfall the FAQ didn't take note of is instances where "transcendent" or "higher plane" refers to a spiritual transcendence rather than a dimensional transcendence.

It’s not, we’ve literally see the planes of Mental are much beyond that of the physical. What they were illuding to is that afterlives do exist, Doctor Fate(female) was just comprehending what she saw. The spiritual journey is of one’s own soul, not the afterlife. They grow and they go through planes much higher than that of any Gross Planes.

The transcendence in this sense, is not about a physical or material superiority, but rather a spiritual or metaphysical one. Higher planes, in their transcendental nature, may be perceived as existing on a different plane of reality that is more attuned to spiritual or metaphysical principles. This can include aspects like a heightened state of being, a closer connection to fundamental truths or divine forces, or an existence in a realm beyond the constraints of the physical world. Hence, my mentality throughout this is that the statements pertaining to the planes in heaven seemed to denote a spiritual transcendence rather than a dimensional one.

Level of transcendence is equated by level of dimensions not that they are dimensional in nature. This is why I suggest we fit his story to fit the tier, and not the opposite way around.

Also, the journey is meant to help the spirit realize how much more they have to go through to reach the Oversoul. So the fitting setting of higher planes which we can use Heaven for example would help a person because they make their heavens. Nevertheless, Heaven was there as a realm for their transition into a higher world, how they see it does not change that it a realm transcendent of the material.

Higher Planes(Mental and Beyond)​

Supporting evidence at best, all I see implied is a spiritual transcendence. The scans are clearly saying that each individual person's heaven is tailored to their belief system, and that heaven gives each soul a different realm. Basically, they only state that there are different heavens for souls with different learning needs before reincarnation. Also, one of the scans used for "levels of reality" seems to come from the Willworld storyline I mentioned earlier where these dreams were stated to exist in parallel?

You’re equating all illusions in the dream only to be spiritual? Heaven is spiritual but a realm beyond the material, they journey there within how long it takes them to move on. Heaven changes to the will of how people see afterlives but it also exist as an entire plane above the material. So the journey refers to the Soul finding more truth, Heaven is the next place to do it because it’s much closer to God as in a deeper/higher level than material.

In willworld, he was going to higher realities and in one of them, he found the Ocean of Dreams where one makes an entire Universe. The story later notions even that is being dreamed by someone and it’s keep going without an end. That’s not hard to see as the story mentions of levels and the parallel realities are a part of one level.

The supporting evidence is well and good, but once again, I see nothing but spiritual transcendence. There's the fact that Heaven's baseline transcends the material world with full R>F, but we already consider Heaven Low 1-C for that reason. What we're looking for is the relationship between individual planes within Heaven.

Soul are already spirit needing to break from their physical form. The transcendence of realms is between realms not the Soul.

Once again, all I see is spiritual transcendence.

Planes =/= Journey of Souls. The journey a souls takes has no correlation to Metaphysical realms being much beyond Spirituality since the planes are within a hierarchy and the Souls goes to each one level until they come back to the Love Sea.

So it's a void that encompasses the dream universes, just as bleedspace does for the multiverse?

Is still within the Dream. The Void is Pralaya, this location has no technical time because only time is Now. It’s in the name.

Nice, there are infinite dreams. At least everyone can agree with that bit.

Infinite dreams with each one dreaming a universe that makes up part of the endless dream hierarchy. Dream of individual of the Material does not conicide with levels of reality we call Dream.

At best, I can see statements for the collective unconscious transcending the multiverse (which once again, we already accept since it's tiered at Low 1-C).

It’s still part of the hierarchy, I was not eluding to anything else.

Transcending dimensions/beyond dimensional scale/beyond the concept of dimensions is outerverse level, huh (also, the word "concept" wasn't used in the scan)? Kid named tiering system faq:

It's only 1-A if you have an infinite hierarchy to begin with.

Was this meant to point out Outerversal? Or perhaps that what I said is what the scans is saying?

Other Qualitative Superiority Evidence​

I don't see this interpretation expressed in the scans at all, just more spiritual transcendence. Where in the scans does it depict "higher dreams replacing reality and viewing former realities as fiction?" They're ascending into higher dreams and leaving former dreams behind, and that's about it. I don't see where it depicts "viewing lesser realities as fiction as you keep transcending."

I’ll say it again dreams of a Soul has no correlation of level of dreams which are planes.

Summary​

• The OP is very bloated at parts. Ignoring how half of it is exploring DeMatteis's inspirations to provide "context," many of the scans cited just explain things that are already accepted for the cosmology, some of which are on the cosmology page as we speak, so their inclusion served no effective purpose. It's not made clear what parts diverge from the current cosmology.

Sounds like nothing of what I did. You disagreeing does not make it evidently true since you didn’t seem to grasp half of it.

• The actual scans read different from the text in the OP. Several times, I've seen instances where the interpretation of the scans differed drastically from the actual raw text.

So your interpretation is apparently right? You can’t say someone’s view is wrong. If so you didn’t read the scans correctly as well and my point against you is supplementary to that.

• Amid questioning from myself and Deagonx, I came to notice that the supporters often don't know what they're arguing for with certain scans. Every time you ask them what we're supposed to take from provided pages, either their answers vary every time, or they openly admit that "it could mean lots of things." I feel like it's a little disorganized to create a CRT loaded with scans, and not have a clear idea of what their premises even are. I can't even get a clear idea of the arguments being made at points.

I wonder where this have any correlation to what the stories entail of a hierarchy. Not to be a snot, but I also wonder what your view would be like if Deagon agreed.

• This post does not effectively address the issue of the dream worlds being consistently called universes and being outright stated to exist in parallel. The general argument is that they're also called layers and higher planes, but realistically speaking, none of that serves to rebunk the parallelism anti-feat. It's not exactly uncommon for us to see cosmologies which are "layered" or have "higher planes of existence," but those different planes don't have enough evidence of physical superiority and are therefore relegated to being Low 2-C sized constructs.

It does, you’re simply saying because I disagree, it doesn’t!

• Words like "beyond" and "transcend" are too vague to gleam qualitative superiority from, and indicate nothing more than a spiritual transcendence.

That’s your premise? The entire thread shows why such words are viable within the context of the story because they’re most often use by Matteis.

• When it comes down to it, the only supporting evidence is how higher dreams were stated to be "deeper" or "truer," but not only is that not clear enough to derive qualitative superiority from as it is, such is contradicted by the noticably finite gaps between layers.

These “finite” gaps are what?

Conclusion​

I've cited the R>F standards a number of times, but for now, I want to focus on this excerpt only.

This OP is pretty long, but to summarize it for the evaluating staff members, it was made with one intent only: to disregard the parallelism anti-feats by providing as much evidence as possible for the dreams also being higher planes. Let me oversimplfy the main arguments made and respond to them.

• Sure the dreams were stated to exist in parallel, but they're also called higher planes and higher levels of reality.

My greatest problem with the OP is that it massively downplays how much impact the word "parallel" holds against their argument. The word parallel isn't just a vague synonym for "neighboring," is means two things exist on the same geometric space, hold the same slope, and share a single axis. The word parallel is no different from a verbatim statement that something isn't a qualitatively higher dimension. The parallel dreams being called higher levels or planes doesn't mean change anything. It's possible to have multiple universes, where one universe is portrayed as higher or more divine than the other, but there's not enough superiority regarding size, mass, or other physical properties for the higher universes to be scaled anywhere other than Low 2-C.

I mentioned when parallel comes into use. I don’t know why you don’t seem to understand parallel dreams of one planes does not mean it happens for every plane. This point was literally answer by someone’s debunking your notion in the other thread. How is that you believe the Ocean of Dreams saying one’s will creates a universe that’s parallel to others as “planes are parallel?”

• The dreams were stated to be higher layers that transcend one another, where you become closer and closer to enlightenment as you ascend.

All this denotes is spiritual superiority (as I explained in-depth above regarding the rules for higher planes of existence), definitely not the kind of physical superiority we're looking for. I don't even thinks that counts for so much as supporting evidence.

Of the Soul, not of the Planes. I literally describe journey as part of what is meant to become God. Passing through planes which is separate of the Soul is part of it, the Soul isn’t the planes.

• But higher dreams were stated to be more real, which means R>F difference.

The problem is, after discarding the other supporting evidence, this is the only one that works in favor of proving R>F, and it's not enough. For one thing, you'd usually at least need evidence of a medium through which a cosmology can be viewed as fiction (such as being "contained" in a dream or storybook), and there seems to be no evidence of dreams physically being within dreams as they're consistently depicted as parallel worlds. So this on its own, is insufficient. All this "higher, truer" dream stuff just pertains to achieving enlightenment in higher planes of existence.

Apparently the dream of Heavens is parallel to the Material and all the other planes that once transcends. What is this? Dreams are layered and level and each Soul in one corresponds with that specific planes not all the planes as the Soul doesn’t exist in every one at once.

For another thing, after going through these scans, the characters from lower and higher dreams seem to be generally portrayed as comparable in power and existence, unlike with something akin to the Unwritten, where beings of higher narrative layers can freely manipulate lower layers (which are stated to be physically contained as worlds within worlds, mind you) to the point of adding higher dimensional spaces to lower narratives.

Hal Jordan statements literally rebukes this. All that’s happening is being dreamed by him as someone else is to him. They all appear to be in a dream of a dream of a dream and so on…the levels of that never ends as each person in different layers dreams of something bigger until they realize they are God dreaming of all the levels/layers.

And lastly, this hierarchy of dreams violates another major anti-feat to R>F transcendence where fictional characters can attack real ones without having transcended their worlds or holding special abilities. This one is mostly case-by-case, but the metaphysical planes seem to violate this. There is the Kingdom of Now mentioned in the OP, and it's portrayed as a space encompassing all the dreams. By the looks of it, jumping from dream world to dream world requires simple dimensional travel. Even in the Dr. Fate scans, hopping between dreams also seems to require simple flight and dimensional travel. Same with scans like this, where at best, attaining spiritual enlightenment would allow regular people to ascend to higher planes. Definitely not the kind of reality-breaking, "they broke into the real world" kind of special abilities.

Kingdom of Now does not encompasses all dreams. As for your weird Doctor Fate example, they go there by some sort of process and they don’t simply fly to planes.

All in all, I believe that the gap between dreams serves as insufficient evidence for qualitative superiority. Not only is there minimal evidence that can be used genuinely, but the little proof we have is contradicted by a swath of anti-feats like the dreams existing in parallel and explicitly finite gaps between layers that require simple dimensional travel to cross. I've used this term "special pleading" a few times the last weeks. To elaborate, it's a fallacy which generally holds two characteristics: dismissing evidence that works against your favor, and demanding that evidence working against you be dismissed without a valid reason. We've had hundreds of threads evaluating R>F layers for different verses, and I see nothing that sets DC apart from verses which have been rejected for following the anti-feats. Regardless, a number of people think anti-feats such as dreams being parallel worlds or having finite gaps should be up and dismissed for no good reason. Anyway, everything I've said has fallen on deaf ears by this point, so I'll refrain from participating or replying further unless the situation demands it (for instance, a staff member asking for clarification).

Please, you’ll only get rubuked if you did. I’ll keep answering your apparent lack of understanding with some scans. The only thing I will say is that I worded some things weird which may seems to not indicate what’s in the scan.

Hey Lawyer, could you do me a favor and tag more people? It can't just be my opinion over and over, so I need people listed as knowledgeable members on tier 1 to provide input as to whether or not this meets/violates the standards for R>F based on me and the OP's arguments.

• Rakih Elyan
• PrinceofPein
• Qawsedf234
• You're a knowledgeable member too, so I'd like to hear your perspective.

Besides that, if you're also willing, I need help tagging more evaluating staff to this CRT.

• Deagonx
• Eficiente
• DarkDragonMedeus
• Firestorm808
• Armorchompy

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

If some things were not shown, this does not mean that they do not exist. New gods have always been canonically abstract beings, although this was introduced later, and this contradicts past comics, but we cannot deny these statements. Doomsday has also always been an abstract entity, although in past appearances he was simply a mindless animal. What I mean is that the mere fact of the absence of something does not exclude the presence

This was not at all what I was eluding to. In Vertigo, he made the main Creation which apparently is made by Perpetua, the headcanon would lie in implying what are the gaps that the story does not foretell.

Lucifer v3. Even though she didn't appear in person

Lucifer Vol.3 does not mention of any events from the final issues of JLD nor make a point in showing anything Matteis related. It only fitting since he was visiting the Hindu deities.

He can be made equivalent to Yahweh, although shown differently. Even stranger, Yahweh has always been shown and iterated in different ways, so it doesn't really prevent different interpretations from existing together

How they explain it is different. God comes as humans to assume form. Yahweh is shaped by belief in some sort of religious system.

Morpheus and Bleed

Morpheus is Dream defined in one Creation alongside many others. The Dream is Creation being dreamt by one single entity and we know it’s all just an illusion. I even asked if Matteis ever used Lucifer or Michael and he said he never has but he makes characters on such levels because usually the certain characters that appear in his story usually only appear there.

Bleed is all Creation dreamed by God?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

This was not at all what I was eluding to. In Vertigo, he made the main Creation which apparently is made by Perpetua, the headcanon would lie in implying what are the gaps that the story does not foretell.

Lucifer Vol.3 does not mention of any events from the final issues of JLD nor make a point in showing anything Matteis related. It only fitting since he was visiting the Hindu deities.

How they explain it is different. God comes as humans to assume form. Yahweh is shaped by belief in some sort of religious system.

Morpheus is Dream defined in one Creation alongside many others. The Dream is Creation being dreamt by one single entity and we know it’s all just an illusion. I even asked if Matteis ever used Lucifer or Michael and he said he never has but he makes characters on such levels because usually the certain characters that appear in his story usually only appear there.

Bleed is all Creation dreamed by God?

Lucifer v3 does mention prayalya. When lucifer visits indian afterlife and ventures into the void which is mentioned the same way as pralaya is

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Lucifer v3 does mention prayalya. When lucifer visits indian afterlife and ventures into the void which is mentioned the same way as pralaya is

Pralaya as a character is made by Matteis, Pralaya as a part of a religious view has been here for thousands of years. That’s not what makes them the same especially within the setting of comics.

 

[Brahmatman]

This was not at all what I was eluding to. In Vertigo, he made the main Creation which apparently is made by Perpetua, the headcanon would lie in implying what are the gaps that the story does not foretell.

Each pantheon has its own interpretation of the creation of the multiverse. Even among the Greeks, Chaos gave birth to the multiverse. The comic Planetary stated that the universe can exist simultaneously in all probabilities and possibilities.

Lucifer Vol.3 does not mention of any events from the final issues of JLD nor make a point in showing anything Matteis related. It only fitting since he was visiting the Hindu deities.

Different interpretations of characters by different authors do not make them separate from each other

How they explain it is different. God comes as humans to assume form. Yahweh is shaped by belief in some sort of religious system.

This is the mortal understanding of Yahweh as God. In one comic there was an indication that magical worlds give mortals a reason to exist

Morpheus is Dream defined in one Creation alongside many others. The Dream is Creation being dreamt by one single entity and we know it’s all just an illusion. I even asked if Matteis ever used Lucifer or Michael and he said he never has but he makes characters on such levels because usually the certain characters that appear in his story usually only appear there.

Actually, God was declared to be stronger than Morpheus, so this is not a strong contradiction.

Bleed is all Creation dreamed by God?

Bleed contains all dreams

 

[Brahmatman]

I don't mean that we should superimpose any evidence on top of each other. It is necessary to use only the general concepts of the authors. How the fact that imagination in DeMatteis's comics allows for the creation of universes fits perfectly with Bleed

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Each pantheon has its own interpretation of the creation of the multiverse. Even among the Greeks, Chaos gave birth to the multiverse. The comic Planetary stated that the universe can exist simultaneously in all probabilities and possibilities.

This doesn’t have to do with the points for connecting canons. Snyder has accredited the Hands as the arbitrators of the Multiverses. Origin stories can vary, yes, but she is the being that was accredited to making it thus making all other accounts pretty invalid.

Different interpretations of characters by different authors do not make them separate from each other

It doesn’t but they can not scale the same way because each view is separate which was the point of the revision as well as this thread.

This is the mortal understanding of Yahweh as God. In one comic there was an indication that magical worlds give mortals a reason to exist

They’re not exactly the same behind their creation story and are not intertwined other than being referred to as “The Presence.”

Actually, God was declared to be stronger than Morpheus, so this is not a strong contradiction.

What? The point was he used similar characters on levels of Vertigo characters. I was not making the point Morpheus was stronger but he never intended to use any of those or acknowledge them as part of his stories.

Bleed contains all dreams

The Dream is the Creation. Not level, not hierarchies, not planes but the entirety of Existence which the Bleed doesn’t define.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don't mean that we should superimpose any evidence on top of each other. It is necessary to use only the general concepts of the authors. How the fact that imagination in DeMatteis's comics allows for the creation of universes fits perfectly with Bleed

It was mentioned:

The following sections will define the main cosmologies of DC Comics, characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authorship. It is primarily intended to cover the most important realms and should not be taken as a completely exhaustive list of every minor realm that has ever appeared.

If you wish to then you can:

The division of DC's cosmology into these four categories is not exhaustive nor unbending, they are representative of "lines in the sand" based on approximations of the most prominent characterizations of the cosmology. For the purposes of tiering, these categories are the "rule of thumb," but cross-scaling into other material can occur when there is a clear evidentiary basis or narrative relevance.

 

[Brahmatman]

This doesn’t have to do with the points for connecting canons. Snyder has accredited the Hands as the arbitrators of the Multiverses. Origin stories can vary, yes, but she is the being that was accredited to making it thus making all other accounts pretty invalid.

This places them only level above everything else in the expansion sequence of cosmology. The creation of material multiverses by other pantheons does not cancel this

It doesn’t but they can not scale the same way because each view is separate which was the point of the revision as well as this thread.

Unless proven that these are separate characters with a different history and set of powers. One author can make Superman throw suns, while for another he won’t even destroy a building, but that doesn’t make them different characters?

They’re not exactly the same behind their creation story and are not intertwined other than being referred to as “The Presence.”

While the characters are released in the same universe, they are still on the same plane

The Dream is the Creation. Not level, not hierarchies, not planes but the entirety of Existence which the Bleed doesn’t define.

I wrote only about the dreams of mortal beings

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This topic can be discussed elsewhere.

 

[Brahmatman]

It was mentioned:

If you wish to then you can:

Somehow I haven’t seen Scp or Marvel divided this way. Yes, even in Dragon Ball there were cosmological failures and changes, and this is literally one author

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Somehow I haven’t seen Scp or Marvel divided this way. Yes, even in Dragon Ball there were cosmological failures and changes, and this is literally one author

SCP is divided by proposals with different takes. It’s a fan site with different canons, so Comp is weird. As for Marvel, I don’t know why.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Somehow I haven’t seen Scp or Marvel divided this way. Yes, even in Dragon Ball there were cosmological failures and changes, and this is literally one author

SCP and Marvel both have canonical explanations for their contradictions.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What is the TLDR summary?

 

[Westcoast5005]

SCP and Marvel both have canonical explanations for their contradictions.

Doesn’t dc have too

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

What is the TLDR summary?

This is the OP’s summary:

Creation: High 1-B
There are infinite universes to which each reality is divided into levels and exists across a sort of Nexus called the Consciousness of God. The Dream contains sequences of dreams that become more real and transcend the previous to invoke a hierarchy of infinite between each plane/world in the Dream.

Which fits this standard:

Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures whose size is equivalent to a countably infinite number of qualitative sizes above a universal model, usually represented in fiction by endless hierarchies of layers of existence, each succeeding one completely trivializing the previous into insignificance, or more generally a space with countably infinite dimensions.

The whole idea fits it perfectly. There are infinite dimensions, there is an endless hierarchy with each one level surpassing the previous one into insignificance.

Pralaya: Low 1-A
An aspect of God and the entire ocean of nothing. Completely transcends and is separated from Creation and it's an endless hierarchy. Transcends Maya(Creation), Creator(Aspect of God), and beyond all hierarchies of dreams(Limitless Planes).

This is the initial tier for characters who functionally transcend the rest of the Tiering System, and stand outside of any extensions of infinite hierarchies and sizes, to varying degrees and magnitudes. In more straightforward terms, this category could be said to be occupied by characters whose size and/or level of power cannot be reached by merely stacking bigger infinities on top of each other.

Outside any extension of an infinite hierarchy and its varying degrees. No amount of Creation can fill the infinite unmanifest Void.

God: 1-A
God surpasses and transcends everything even Pralaya who is no more an illusion as is an atom. All of them combined together in any degree are fictitious and exist in his mind. His original state is the perfection of power, knowledge, and bliss and the one true soul reality.

Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters who stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potencysection (Outerverse level+).

To how Pralaya transcends Creation so does God to both her and Creation.

This is my response to his arguments (my response has a summary), and his response to my response.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Doesn’t dc have too

I pretty sure they explained it using hyper time and the great darkness

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Doesn’t dc have too

Not as far as I know.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is the OP’s summary:

This is my response to his arguments (my response has a summary), and his response to my response.

I'm remaining neutral for now but leaning towards your points I suppose but think input from other staff would be better.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I pretty sure they explained it using hyper time and the great darkness

@Deagonx @Elizio33

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I'm remaining neutral for now but leaning towards your points I suppose but think input from other staff would be better.

If it does help you can read the thread or perhaps my other responses on the claim made by Profectus. I don’t think he understood much of what I propose because some of what he said has no correlation to why and how things are being tiered. Especially when he uses the idea planes are interchangeable with parallel realities.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I am not in agreement with high 1-B. I think the evidence for infinite QS layers is not well substantiated by evidence I've seen, and would prefer the argument for it be provided more specifically (as in, not a needle in a haystack of a massive revision) with more staff input before we upgrade the cosmology by infinite infinities.

Would you be willing to give your rough thoughts now that there’s been a back and forth?

 

[Deagonx]

Would you be willing to give your rough thoughts now that there’s been a back and forth?

I am more inclined to your points. I really think the approach taken here is far too bulky to make serious progress, though. Trying to tackle a million things at once isn't practical.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don’t understand asking Deagon, he was already very adamant on his position about the rework. What I would more so suggest people who actually want to participate is and are actually reading it then question each part because there were very weird point Profectus made when everyone else kept having to clarify it for you.

The major reason I seem to see of this quick opinion change is how unmoved Deagon was from his original proposition for Profectus to change his mind back. If it requires back and forth to get the point then it’ll be done that way. Having no interest in that does not mean we just ignore what has been said.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The biggest problem I have with most reasoning including Deagonx original intent on the issue regarding the levels is that the story never depicts it like that.

Equating spiritual journey to metaphysical realms is utter nonsense. Implying that one must transcend spiritually refers only to the person, not the metaphysical realm which is awaiting them as they take that journey. Doesn’t disprove the level of transcendence between each planes and the Spectre scans never disprove of the notion. All explained perfectly in the OP.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I do still agree with High 1-B Heaven. Some of Profectus' points are questions of my own too though.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I do still agree with High 1-B Heaven. Some of Profectus' points are questions of my own too though.

If you have question then feel free to ask. Though I intended all of Creation to be High 1-B not just Heaven. If it were High 1-B then Creation would be Low 1-A, Pralaya 1-A, and Divine Presence 1-A+.

 

[Elizio33]

I pretty sure they explained it using hyper time and the great darkness

Yes DC has means to explain its different changes, notably with Hypertime and more recently with the Metaverse but these means do not work as well as we thought because even they are subject to changes and inconsistencies. Scott Snyder tried to reconcile the constant changes in the DCU with the end of Death Metal, when the multiverse was brought back and unraveled in time, which not only gave importance to every DC story, but the multiverse also became its own sort of Omniverse, but that was changed literally a year later with Dark Crisis which falsified all of that.

 

[PrinceofPein]

VeryGoofyToddler please take a break from making threads, you keep making long threads back to back and I am tired of looking at them

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

VeryGoofyToddler please take a break from making threads, you keep making long threads back to back and I am tired of looking at them

I made two after a long break since my previous ones which I asked the mods to close. Also, I don’t plan to make any others in the near future and this is just the two that needs to be talked about.

So you saying this is just random and no one asked you to look at them. If you’re not going to participate then don’t. It’s as simple as that.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I made two after a long break since my previous ones which I asked the mods to close. Also, I don’t plan to make any others in the near future and this is just the two that needs to be talked about.

So you saying this is just random and no one asked you to look at them. If you’re not going to participate then don’t. It’s as simple as that.

I was tagged to look at them, and all was within this week.
It is tiring.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I was tagged to look at them, and all was within this week.
It is tiring.

This is derailing but just ask Ant to not tag you.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm with Pein here. Your CRTs are often ridiculously long and make it very hard to tell what changes you are arguing for, and this is a criticism I have provided multiple times in different CRTs. It has become very tiresome.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Reading it tells you what changes is needed. The way it’s structured is just implemented some tiering change with the information given by the thread. In some aspect it’s the same so feel free to skim through the parts but the whole thread needs to be read.

Not wanting to as I stated is a matter of preference. If you don’t want to then don’t. It’s almost like you guys are trying to say you’re forced into this thread. Simply ignore if you don’t have anything to say about the actual thread which I believe you haven’t fully read.

 

[Deagonx]

Reading it tells you what changes is needed.

Only if we compare and contrast against the existing blog, which is not an appropriate manner to "hide the ball" in terms of what is actually being proposed for changes. The segments that represent actual changes should be presented in isolation, not hidden amongst an entire cosmology blog which -- by your admission -- keeps most things the same relative to the existing blog.

 

[Elizio33]

Guys. Let's focus on the revision proposed in this thread.