The Presence(Yahweh) Ability Addition.

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

altho i don't see transduality type 3, i can see transduality type 2

The void is stated to be outside creation, including all of its laws, physical variables etc but at the same time its also connected to creation

Where does it state it's connected to Creation? To make a Creation you push he absence of space so that you have space to make a Creation. That's not being tired of it because all Creation can die and it wouldn't affect the Void.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yahweh is independent from all dualities because he existed before creation which contains all of Yahweh's plan, this plan contains things which contain duality such as death and life


this is pretty nlf where is yahweh creating all of that


The Endless are only concepts that govern reality, they are not dual concepts as you have explained


i don't know where you can think like that, all I need is proof that it can get transduality type 3

I'm not reexplaining as I mention. If you disagree as well as the majority then it will drop.

 

[Xearsay]

Lucifer did do something but it happens to not do anything because they were invulnerable to harm at that point when they became Yahweh.

Can I see the scan?

Yahweh's domain isn't just creation. It's everywhere because Lucifer is his “creation” he is still part of him. He still held all the cards and he cannot fix the logic he has a creator.

The evidence I posted says otherwise. Lucifer literally went into a realm(the Void) “outside of his own creators domain” when making his new creation. Meaning the Presences domain can’t include the Void.

It does as the whole idea of being infinite and eternal must be cemented in one being. If someone else is infinite and eternal that would be contradicted and the analogy of Buddha and the Monkey King explains it.

The problem is that the Presence is presented as contained in the Void. So the Void is a greater infinity.

He tells Lucifer he only acts through avatar.
Mike Carey states we shape our gods.
Lucifer tells him hiding in flesh is grotesque.

It's pretty obvious he doesn't have a form but takes one. Even to Elaine.

I asked for a scan. Saying “it’s pretty obvious” doesn’t prove anything.

You can see time yet it doesn't exist. You can feel the space yet it's not there. Every logic falls in meaning because anything you can grasp would take willpower beyond imagination. Liloth was erased from Existence but in the Void she can exist because there is no “time” where he died. All things are infinitely stacked on top of each other and no amount of logic can explain what is can be seen.

Once again, where are the scans? Where in the comics does it say “every logic falls” in the Void? Where does it say “no amount of logic can explain what can be seen” in the Void?

As for Yahweh, no one including Michael and Lucifer understand his nature. Elaine as the Demiurge would still go crazy if he doesn't use a form. His nature cannot be comprehended and can just make things impossible and possible.

I don’t think having an incomprehensible nature is enough for type 3 Transduality. Neither is making things possible and impossible. If that was the case there’d be a lot more type 3 Transdual characters running around.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Can I see the scan?

He states they are immune to every power except their own. That power they had is Yahweh bearing his might and will. They are invulnerable to everything at that point.

The evidence I posted says otherwise. Lucifer literally went into a realm(the Void) “outside of his own creators domain” when making his new creation. Meaning the Presences domain can’t include the Void.

Yet even then Yahweh is the one in control. Never mind the logic he allowed him to with the Letter of Passage. I never said the Void is his domain, I said he is the Void. He's not making himself his own territory.

The problem is that the Presence is presented as contained in the Void. So the Void is a greater infinity.

One infinity cannot be a greater infinity. One of them is lying either Lucifer is lying or Yahweh is. Yahweh literally states it in a factual manner all he is a form for a formless entity that is described as the Void. Gaiman also includes the entire Universe is in distracted in the mind of God where ideas float in the Void. Void is a part of God as it is himself.

Also, he says “It's true” that he is infinite and eternal when Lucifer was talking about him holding all the cards even to the Void. Which he describes as infinite and eternal same holding, same lettering, and same manner without the ironic story that explains it. I don't know how you don't see this but sure.

I asked for a scan. Saying “it’s pretty obvious” doesn’t prove anything.

#68: “I have to look like that you know. To attach myself to a concept your mind could grasp.
#75: “Or as it might be, the aspect of myself through which I act.”
#75: “A plea for understanding Father? That's grotesque. Like that body you've chosen to dress up in.”

He takes form to interact with his Creation summed up by “through which I act.” So go and find the scan which I listed you your reference. Also all that is in the thread as well.

Once again, where are the scans? Where in the comics does it say “every logic falls” in the Void? Where does it say “no amount of logic can explain what can be seen” in the Void?

“It's a matter of perception”
“To discipline your eyes and mind to a new perspective--to see time where no time is--”
“Takes an effort of Will almost beyond imagination.”

Here is the definition of logic:

Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principle of validity.

This is explaining what you view in the Void is what you can understand. The logic of there being no time yet to train a perspective to see time is a non-logic. Things that don't seem as such are viewed to be as such. The Void is beyond logic, so you have to make sense of your own perspective. Nothing is truly valid there because no one truly perceives the same way. Thus no logic to make.

I don’t think having an incomprehensible nature is enough for type 3 Transduality. Neither is making things possible and impossible. If that was the case there’d be a lot more type 3 Transdual characters running around.

As I said if everyone disagrees then we implement the changes we agree on and move from the ones we don't.

 

[Robo432343]

Where does it state it's connected to Creation? To make a Creation you push he absence of space so that you have space to make a Creation. That's not being tired of it because all Creation can die and it wouldn't affect the Void.

We know its connected to creation because all things are layered endlessly there, you need the demiurgic power to create new cosmos in the void etc

 

[Xearsay]

He states they are immune to every power except their own. That power they had is Yahweh bearing his might and will. They are invulnerable to everything at that point.

Well immunity on this site is treated as the highest degree of resistance. So the Presence should have immunity to Lucifer and Michaels power but not their hax as Lucifer killed the Titans with time shenanigans.

Yet even then Yahweh is the one in control. Never mind the logic he allowed him to with the Letter of Passage. I never said the Void is his domain, I said he is the Void. He's not making himself his own territory.

The Presence is literally shown to be contained inside of the Void. He isn’t the same as it.

One infinity cannot be a greater infinity. One of them is lying either Lucifer is lying or Yahweh is. Yahweh literally states it in a factual manner all he is a form for a formless entity that is described as the Void. Gaiman also includes the entire Universe is in distracted in the mind of God where ideas float in the Void. Void is a part of God as it is himself.

Also, he says “It's true” that he is infinite and eternal when Lucifer was talking about him holding all the cards even to the Void. Which he describes as infinite and eternal same holding, same lettering, and same manner without the ironic story that explains it. I don't know how you don't see this but sure.

Where are you getting “one infinity” from? The Void transcends the already 2-A creation. It’s not just a regular infinite realm. The Presence is infinite but is surpassed by a greater infinity that is the Void.

Second, where is Yahweh described as a form for the Void? This is like the third time I’ve asked you to provide evidence for what you’re talking about, to which you’ve replied without evidence.

#68: “I have to look like that you know. To attach myself to a concept your mind could grasp.
#75: “Or as it might be, the aspect of myself through which I act.”
#75: “A plea for understanding Father? That's grotesque. Like that body you've chosen to dress up in.”

He takes form to interact with his Creation summed up by “through which I act.” So go and find the scan which I listed you your reference. Also all that is in the thread as well.

All he’s saying in what you’ve quoted is that he he acts through aspects. And having an aspect doesn’t mean you’re formless.

This is explaining what you view in the Void is what you can understand. The logic of there being no time yet to train a perspective to see time is a non-logic. Things that don't seem as such are viewed to be as such. The Void is beyond logic, so you have to make sense of your own perspective. Nothing is truly valid there because no one truly perceives the same way. Thus no logic to make.

I think there’s a misconception here.

Transduality type 3 is a state of existence where one can’t be described as true, false, true and false, or neither true nor false. Meaning even if something can be described as being simultaneously existent and nonexistent, that wouldn’t be enough for Transduality type 3.

Furthermore, the scan you’re referencing mentions how things are a matter of perception because there is no time and space. We also know from other scans that everything amounts to 0 in the Void. So the Vertigo Void can be described as a state of false because nothing exist. Due to Lucifers will power, he can perceive time even in realms where it doesn’t actually exist. So it’s not that the Void exists outside of the 4 states described previously, it’s that Lucifers willpower allows him to perceive things that don’t actually exist. Which says nothing about the Void state of existence but rather Lucifer’s perception.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well immunity on this site is treated as the highest degree of resistance. So the Presence should have immunity to Lucifer and Michaels power but not their hax as Lucifer killed the Titans with time shenanigans.

Uh, that's not what happened what really happened was with Mazikeen and Beatrice.

Lucifer knows that the Titans used Beatrice a person who knew Lucifer. So when the Titans wanted to create Dunium they divided to use the memory of Beatrice but it wasn't the best copy. As regarded by Lucifer as a failed copy.

So Mazikeen decided to use Beatrice to undo the effect made by the Titans and the effect reached back in time and destroy the Titans.

Let me clarify for you since you seem to misunderstand everything. They usurp his power and position but they were never truly him. This is why the logic works because they weren't eternal so time still could work by reversing it to the time for them to be killed before they gain their power. Michael states his power didn't work as well as Lucifer's. It wasn't their power that killed them. So they were immune to every power except their own, more Yahweh’s power.

They tried to “become” Yahweh.
They became “Yahweh”
However, they were never truly him because becoming infinite is not a possbiktoy unless you were it.

The Presence is literally shown to be contained inside of the Void. He isn’t the same as it.

Never once depicted because he is taking a form. He can exist separately from the Void when taking flesh. How Jesus is God but he always addresses God separately while a mortal. You seem to take the obvious route of “His in the Void, so how is he it.” As to ignore subtle obviousness.

Where are you getting “one infinity” from? The Void transcends the already 2-A creation. It’s not just a regular infinite realm. The Presence is infinite but is surpassed by a greater infinity that is the Void.

2-A is referring to the time-space continuum, not of “infinite” status since it can still be destroyed. Infinity usage also compliments eternal as to say “all-powerful” and “no beginning no end.”

The Presence is infinite, hence why he tells Lucifer that Omnipotence was a burden. The Void is infinite in size yet it's still “infinity.” There is no such thing as a greater infinity.

If you're referring to Cardinals, Aleph, or Axiom just remember they are part of infinity, they just start a new numerical set in an ordinal order. Plus they only refer to mathematics.

The only infinite being is Yahweh. The only location that is infinite as well is the Void. Michael and Lucifer are not infinite or makeup fifty percent because you cannot get to be infinite if you weren't in the first place.

Second, where is Yahweh described as a form for the Void? This is like the third time I’ve asked you to provide evidence for what you’re talking about, to which you’ve replied without evidence.

Alright since you misinterpret everything let's go over what the comics said. For you to understand better since you seem to misinterpret everything.

Here are three scans in reference:

First, let's take this without context. The Monkey is talking to Buddha about his cunningness and his ability to perform large things. So he decided to show Buddha what he can do without his influence being there because at that point Buddha and Nirvana were one and the same where he is everything. So he leaps across all the worlds and went outside of it. Outside all the worlds is only one place: the Void.

Then he landed on the other side of Infinity(The Void) where he see the column that held the sky(Creation). Then he leaps back to go to Creation. Guess what happened?

Buddha knew the great lengths he had gone to prove a point just like someone we knew. He had gone to the Void and believed that his influence ends there. Just to show him the Void is every part of his body as is everything else.

Now we can take it into context to explain the relationship between Yahweh and Lucifer. Lucifer cannot be his own maker, traveling to the Void outside Creation to be free of the plan does not make him free of Yahweh. Nowhere in the Void can he go to escape because Yahweh infinity is one with the Void as well.

Then he tells him in the same structure that Lucifer said to describe the Void as “Infinite and Eternal.”

The exact description match in the same lettering:

But since the Void is infinite and eternal

True, I'm infinite and eternal.

The story already explains it and now he gets the notion that he was infinite like the Void. That is eternal like the Void.

You cannot be eternal if something predates you. You cannot be infinite if something is bigger or more powerful.

All he’s saying in what you’ve quoted is that he he acts through aspects. And having an aspect doesn’t mean you’re formless.

It does because the “through which he acts” requires something. An aspect is to help him take form because we only see two forms. The Light form and the Old Man formed which he created for Elaine so that her mind wouldn't go crazy due to seeing what he actually looks like.

I think there’s a misconception here.

Transduality type 3 is a state of existence where one can’t be described as true, false, true and false, or neither true nor false. Meaning even if something can be described as being simultaneously existent and nonexistent, that wouldn’t be enough for Transduality type 3.

Where the logic breaks. The understanding of the Void is non-existence but it's not the only trait to it. The Void perfectly fits that description and Yahweh or more so “God” without form is that same thing.

Furthermore, the scan you’re referencing mentions how things are a matter of perception because there is no time and space. We also know from other scans that everything amounts to 0 in the Void. So the Vertigo Void can be described as a state of false because nothing exist. Due to Lucifers will power, he can perceive time even in realms where it doesn’t actually exist. So it’s not that the Void exists outside of the 4 states described previously, it’s that Lucifers willpower allows him to perceive things that don’t actually exist. Which says nothing about the Void state of existence but rather Lucifer’s perception.

Yeah, that literally what I said........

 

[Deagonx]

Goofy, I would advise using hyperlinks in the future for scans, because the full-size scan in the middle of the post makes it quite hard to follow. I'm going to reduce their size in your comment.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Goofy, I would advise using hyperlinks in the future for scans, because the full-size scan in the middle of the post makes it quite hard to follow. I'm going to reduce their size in your comment.

Sorry I answered his question because he seems to not understand what it meant.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

We know its connected to creation because all things are layered endlessly there, you need the demiurgic power to create new cosmos in the void etc

The layering is not a reference to Creation.

The Demiurgic Power is to create from the Void/Nothingess. Where is the link because all Creation can die but not affect the Void.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Goofy, I would advise using hyperlinks in the future for scans, because the full-size scan in the middle of the post makes it quite hard to follow. I'm going to reduce their size in your comment.

By the way, from what I posted with the images do you believe that Yahweh when no taking form is the Void?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Alright so we can add the changes but for Transduality most of you agreed on Type 2 so we’ll agree on Type 2.

For Immortality, it seems either Type 1 and Type 8 seems to be favored here. The rest I think should be fine.

 

[Elizio33]

Looks alright

 

[Robo432343]

Alright so we can add the changes but for Transduality most of you agreed on Type 2 so we’ll agree on Type 2.

For Immortality, it seems either Type 1 and Type 8 seems to be favored here. The rest I think should be fine.

type 2 TD just got debunked by you sadly so we cant agree yet

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

type 2 TD just got debunked by you sadly so we cant agree yet

What exactly did I say that contradicts Type 2 here?

 

[Robo432343]

The layering is not a reference to Creation.

The Demiurgic Power is to create from the Void/Nothingess. Where is the link because all Creation can die but not affect the Void.

here

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

here

What there contradicts this:

Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of an entire level of reality and qualitatively superior or immune to the effects caused within it. Furthermore, characters with this type can be accurately described as being in either both or neither state of the dualities

Type 2:

Type 2 refers to characters whose existence is described as either being in both states of a duality at once or in neither state.

 

[Xearsay]

Let me clarify for you since you seem to misunderstand everything. They usurp his power and position but they were never truly him. This is why the logic works because they weren't eternal so time still could work by reversing it to the time for them to be killed before they gain their power. Michael states his power didn't work as well as Lucifer's. It wasn't their power that killed them. So they were immune to every power except their own, more Yahweh’s power.

First of all, I never said they were literally Yahweh, I said they had his power. Second, being eternal doesn’t mean you’re immune to time manipulation or that you have some type of acausality. The fact that the two Titans had the Presences power but time shenanigans could still work on them, proves the Presence’s power doesn’t grant immunity to every type of hax.

2-A is referring to the time-space continuum, not of “infinite” status since it can still be destroyed. Infinity usage also compliments eternal as to say “all-powerful” and “no beginning no end.”

The Presence is infinite, hence why he tells Lucifer that Omnipotence was a burden. The Void is infinite in size yet it's still “infinity.” There is no such thing as a greater infinity.

If you're referring to Cardinals, Aleph, or Axiom just remember they are part of infinity, they just start a new numerical set in an ordinal order. Plus they only refer to mathematics.

Well for starters, I never argued that 2-A was referring to the idea of being infinite in status or all powerful/omnipotent. I don’t really think this point even matters because VSBW doesn’t incorporate omnipotence into tiering.

Next thing. What do you mean by the Vertigo “Void is infinite in size but it’s still infinity” and “cardinals, aleph or axiom are part of infinity.” Are you trying to say the Vertigo Void is infinity in the manner of absolute infinity? Well literally nothing in the comics suggest such a thing for the Presence or the Vertigo Void, and once again I don’t think VSBW even incorporates the idea into tiering.

Alright since you misinterpret everything let's go over what the comics said. For you to understand better since you seem to misinterpret everything.

You cannot be eternal if something predates you. You cannot be infinite if something is bigger or more powerful.

I’m not misinterpreting anything. You’re just adding more what’s actually said.

1. The monkey leaped across all the words in creation and landed where the worlds end. It never said he went “outside of it” like you claimed. So comparing the Monkey leaping across creation to entering the Void, doesn’t make any sense.

2. As already posted, the Void is directly said to be outside of the Presences domain. If the Presence was the Void, this type of statement wouldn’t even be possible.

3. Once again, VSBW’s tiering system incorporates the idea of greater or bigger infinities. If you have a problem with it, you can make a control thread about it.

It does because the “through which he acts” requires something. An aspect is to help him take form because we only see two forms.

No it doesn’t. Having an aspect to carry out acts just means you have an aspect to carry out acts. That’s it. This tells us nothing about a beings true self, let alone the idea that a beings true self is formless. There are many characters on this site with aspects to carry out acts and don’t have true selves that are formless.

Where the logic breaks. The understanding of the Void is non-existence but it's not the only trait to it. The Void perfectly fits that description and Yahweh or more so “God” without form is that same thing.

None of the scans you posted say the Void is where “logic breaks” at even if you did have some reasoning, I don’t know how that would prove Transduality type 3.

You haven’t given evidence the Void is more than just non-existence, and you’d need to prove the Void can’t be described in the 4 states I listed before, being true, false, true and false, or neither true nor false.

Yeah, that literally what I said........

In your comment you tried to use Lucifer’s will power allowing him to perceive time in the Void when it doesn’t actually exist there, as proof that the Void has Transduality type 3.

In my comment I explained that the Void is a state of false, so it doesn’t meet the requirement for existing outside the 4 states that Transduality type 3 necessitates you can’t be described in. I also said that Lucifer’s will power allowing him to perceive time where there is no time, tells us about Lucifer’s perception and not the Voids state of existence.

So no you didn’t say the same thing. Also I’ve noticed in other comments you’ve been arguing for Trasnduality type 2 now. Does that mean you don’t want to argue for transduality type 3 anymore? If so we can drop this part of our discussion.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

First of all, I never said they were literally Yahweh, I said they had his power. Second, being eternal doesn’t mean you’re immune to time manipulation or that you have some type of acausality. The fact that the two Titans had the Presences power but time shenanigans could still work on them, proves the Presence’s power doesn’t grant immunity to every type of hax.

Again, misunderstanding what was said. I already explained that “became” Yahweh as they were immune to every power except their own which is Yahweh. The reason why time work is due to the fact they bear his might and nothing other than that. I never once said you mentioned that because you misunderstood the point of me saying they “became” him but were not fully him. That was me explaining why time manipulation work and it wouldn't if they finish the process.

Well for starters, I never argued that 2-A was referring to the idea of being infinite in status or all powerful/omnipotent. I don’t really think this point even matters because VSBW doesn’t incorporate omnipotence into tiering.

All-Powerful basis is the ability to do anything which Yahweh very well fits and that's to explain the “infinite” part that was mentioned. I mentioned Omnipotence to explain and highlight the infinite part and whether it had the intended usage. As Mike Carey explains Omnipotence means a lot but with context and when regarding Yahweh had only one meaning.

Next thing. What do you mean by the Vertigo “Void is infinite in size but it’s still infinity” and “cardinals, aleph or axiom are part of infinity.” Are you trying to say the Vertigo Void is infinity in the manner of absolute infinity? Well literally nothing in the comics suggest such a thing for the Presence or the Vertigo Void, and once again I don’t think VSBW even incorporates the idea into tiering.

The Void is “infinite” and Yahweh is “infinite” which literally means both are infinite. However, like Omnipotence that's only one description for a singular character. Either one of them isn't infinite or there both infinite because they are the same entity. The whole point you made was a “greater infinity” which doesn't exist.

I’m not misinterpreting anything. You’re just adding more what’s actually said.

1. The monkey leaped across all the words in creation and landed where the worlds end. It never said he went “outside of it” like you claimed. So comparing the Monkey leaping across creation to entering the Void, doesn’t make any sense.

It does because Lucifer went to the Void to prove something and it did nothing. The story is a metaphor to describe what the Monkey could do in order to prove to Buddha he doesn't have a control. Like what Lucifer tried with making a new Creation.

Not to mention it said later he went back into Creation. Also, the Void separates Creation by distance and not time, so when you leave Creation you would end up in the Void. The Void would be after these “worlds.”

2. As already posted, the Void is directly said to be outside of the Presences domain. If the Presence was the Void, this type of statement wouldn’t even be possible.

The Presence domain is his “territory and jurisdiction” It wouldn't make sense if he himself is his own territory. He doesn't need to own “himself” if he is it.

3. Once again, VSBW’s tiering system incorporates the idea of greater or bigger infinities. If you have a problem with it, you can make a control thread about it.

That's referring to mathematics and the scan isn't of mathematics it's to describe the entities. Bigger infinities are still infinity. Plus Yahweh said it later and it wasn't contradicted as Lucifer tells him that “he holds all the cards” and Yahweh responds” It's true, I'm infinite and eternal.” Lucifer and Yahweh both are knowing of this and isn't something to lie about, which was also the description of the Void.

No it doesn’t. Having an aspect to carry out acts just means you have an aspect to carry out acts. That’s it. This tells us nothing about a beings true self, let alone the idea that a beings true self is formless. There are many characters on this site with aspects to carry out acts and don’t have true selves that are formless.

Comparing characters without taking context and setting is just a fall of the shore. Yahweh takes form to interact with his Creation, he would need to take shape as he said “His form was shaped.” If it needed to form into shape then what he is would just be formless until given shape.

None of the scans you posted say the Void is where “logic breaks” at even if you did have some reasoning, I don’t know how that would prove Transduality type 3.

We already discuss this and it's for the majority to agree. I've been long past TD type 3. I was just explaining the nature of the Void because you asked “how logic fails in the Void.”

You haven’t given evidence the Void is more than just non-existence, and you’d need to prove the Void can’t be described in the 4 states I listed before, being true, false, true and false, or neither true nor false.

I'm not arguing for TD Type 3. It was a suggestion and I was asking if people wanted to implement these changes.

In your comment you tried to use Lucifer’s will power allowing him to perceive time in the Void when it doesn’t actually exist there, as proof that the Void has Transduality type 3.

No, it was explaining this:

Once again, where are the scans? Where in the comics does it say “every logic falls” in the Void? Where does it say “no amount of logic can explain what can be seen” in the Void?

In my comment I explained that the Void is a state of false, so it doesn’t meet the requirement for existing outside the 4 states that Transduality type 3 necessitates you can’t be described in. I also said that Lucifer’s will power allowing him to perceive time where there is no time, tells us about Lucifer’s perception and not the Voids state of existence.

I'll ignore these points since your not caught up.

So no you didn’t say the same thing. Also I’ve noticed in other comments you’ve been arguing for Trasnduality type 2 now. Does that mean you don’t want to argue for transduality type 3 anymore? If so we can drop this part of our discussion.

Yeah because they didn't agree. Unless I can just implement these changes, I need them to view it. Since they didn't obviously it had to be dropped. If they also disagree with Type 2 then we can move to Type 1.

 

[Xearsay]

Again, misunderstanding what was said. I already explained that “became” Yahweh as they were immune to every power except their own which is Yahweh. The reason why time work is due to the fact they bear his might and nothing other than that. I never once said you mentioned that because you misunderstood the point of me saying they “became” him but were not fully him. That was me explaining why time manipulation work and it wouldn't if they finish the process.

I don’t think I’m misunderstanding anything.

You’re trying to argue that Yahwehs power is immune to everything except itself, and that the reason the Titans were killed by time shenanigans was because they only had Yahwehs power and weren’t eternal like him.

I’m arguing that whether the Titans were or were not eternal like Yahweh doesn’t matter as being eternal doesn’t grant you immunity to time manipulation. And the fact that the Titans had Yahwehs power but were still vulnerable to being killed in the past, proves Yahwehs power isn’t literally immune to every other type of power.

Also the Titans were literally damaged by a sword from Lucifer after usurping Yahwehs power. Meaning they’re not actually invulnerable to attacks, they’re just immune to Lucifer flames and Michaels dunamis demiurgos power.

All-Powerful basis is the ability to do anything which Yahweh very well fits and that's to explain the “infinite” part that was mentioned. I mentioned Omnipotence to explain and highlight the infinite part and whether it had the intended usage. As Mike Carey explains Omnipotence means a lot but with context and when regarding Yahweh had only one meaning.

The Void is “infinite” and Yahweh is “infinite” which literally means both are infinite. However, like Omnipotence that's only one description for a singular character. Either one of them isn't infinite or there both infinite because they are the same entity. The whole point you made was a “greater infinity” which doesn't exist.

That's referring to mathematics and the scan isn't of mathematics it's to describe the entities. Bigger infinities are still infinity. Plus Yahweh said it later and it wasn't contradicted as Lucifer tells him that “he holds all the cards” and Yahweh responds” It's true, I'm infinite and eternal.” Lucifer and Yahweh both are knowing of this and isn't something to lie about, which was also the description of the Void.

You kind of refuted your own point here tbh. If the Presence called himself infinite as in “omnipotent” or “all powerful” while Lucifer called the Void infinite as in terms of its size, then the Presence isn’t really infinite like the Void, he’s just infinite in terms of what he can do. So this evidence you’re using to say they’re the same doesn’t support what you claim. Also, unfortunately for you, dumb shit like characters being called all powerful or omnipotent, are meaningless on VSBW.

And as I’ve mentioned multiple times, the Presence is shown to exist inside of the Void, so unless you have a scan that mentions the Presence we see in in the Void only being a form the Void is taking then my point about the Presence not being the Void still stands. If he was truly infinite like the Void, he wouldn’t be contained within it.

Lastly, Infinity is a mathematical concept, so you can’t separate infinity from math.

Comparing characters without taking context and setting is just a fall off the shore. Yahweh takes form to interact with his Creation, he would need to take shape as he said “His form was shaped.” If it needed to form into shape then what he is would just be formless until given shape.

Where’s the scan that supports this?

I'm not arguing for TD Type 3. It was a suggestion and I was asking if people wanted to implement these changes.

Ok so we can drop the type 3 discussion, however whats your evidence for type 2 transduality? As I don’t see that being evident either.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don’t think I’m misunderstanding anything.

You’re trying to argue that Yahwehs power is immune to everything except itself, and that the reason the Titans were killed by time shenanigans was because they only had Yahwehs power and weren’t eternal like him.

I’m arguing that whether the Titans were or were not eternal like Yahweh doesn’t matter as being eternal doesn’t grant you immunity to time manipulation. And the fact that the Titans had Yahwehs power but were still vulnerable to being killed in the past, proves Yahwehs power isn’t literally immune to every other type of power.

This is you literally saying the same thing over and over again. You clearly are misunderstanding my points because I clearly addressed these points.

So this will be the last time I respond to them. First off all I mentioned that the Titans becoming Yahweh help them gain immunity from all powers expect their own which was Yahweh’s. They were “becoming” Yahweh, they did not fully finish in their journey hence why time was against them.

They only gain his power and will. They didn't become eternal because they were never Yahweh, to begin with. They were using his space to reshape Creation with them being the Godhead and the Elohim but they clearly still lacked many points. Also, they needed Beatrice to activate the spell because they imprint their “will” on her to use her memory to create Dunium and without her, they couldn't do anything. Lucifer Will alone can do anything with time, you would expect him to do this in the first place if he could.

Also the Titans were literally damaged by a sword from Lucifer after usurping Yahwehs power. Meaning they’re not actually invulnerable to attacks, they’re just immune to Lucifer flames and Michaels dunamis demiurgic power.

They are immune to Lucifer and Michael's power as clearly explained. The sword is not part of Lucifer nor was it special other than being designed by Ibriel(Which damaged Lucifer who is suppose to be made of flame and will). Who died with a sword that was poisoned and crushed by a stone despite Angels being “eternal essence of flame without shape.” Even if the sword actually harmed them and did anything does not contradict they were immune to “powers.” How is a sword a “”power.?

You kind of refuted your own point here tbh. If the Presence called himself infinite as in “omnipotent” or “all powerful” while Lucifer called the Void infinite as in terms of its size, then the Presence isn’t really infinite like the Void, he’s just infinite in terms of what he can do. So this evidence you’re using to say they’re the same doesn’t support what you claim. Also, unfortunately for you, dumb shit like characters being called all powerful or omnipotent, are meaningless on VSBW.

I didn't say Omnipotence give a tier or has a usage here. I was explaining Infinite as described by Yahweh. The description of Infinite and Eternal were used in the same manner, plus looks past that then you cannot differentiate “Eternal.” The descriptions are complementing both Yahweh and the Void. The Buddha story already goes with it as I have explained, the Void is part of Yahweh as Yahweh is it. Infinite is to connect it, what we say in terms of usage of the term to describe “size” or “power” would be more logical had they explained a difference but the entire issue was revolving around them being the same.

And as I’ve mentioned multiple times, the Presence is shown to exist inside of the Void, so unless you have a scan that mentions the Presence we see in in the Void only being a form the Void is taking then my point about the Presence not being the Void still stands. If he was truly infinite like the Void, he wouldn’t be contained within it.

He exists in the Void as a fleshed shape being. It never directly stated that he needs to but he does to interact with his Creation. Niel Gaiman already stated the Void is of God’s mind and it never stated his contained within it. Hence why even if Lucifer travels to the Void or by metaphor jumps to the edge of Infinity(Void) all parts including the Void are part of it.

Lastly, Infinity is a mathematical concept, so you can’t separate infinity from math.

“Infinity” is a term used to describe a set of numbers without limit. “Infinite” is describing a noun.

You don't say “Oh, God is infinity, so his part of Math.”

Where’s the scan that supports this?

I have already shown you it by quoting what was said with the reference material. Not only that but I literally showed you what it meant by your interpretation of whether it had any importance. You're just repeating the same thing that was the answered to you then you ask me to explain it and I did and you asked again.

So I answer your point in which you asked a question specifically about “scans.” Then you were arguing that it wasn't that and I clarified it for you then you resolve it by asking the same question. What exactly are you trying to get here?

Ok so we can drop the type 3 discussion, however whats your evidence for type 2 transduality? As I don’t see that being evident either.

With TD, I will have to use popular opinion, so if you disagree then we can drop it. Type 3 was gone long ago and Type 2 is in question. If it doesn't work then we work to Type 1. How is this hard to understand? I'm trying to work with Robo who questions my sppraovmch for evise Type 3 > Type 2. If you want to respond to what I said to him then if they are an inconvenience then I can argue for Type 1.

 

[Robo432343]

What there contradicts this:

Type 2:

I never said it contradicts td type 2

i was saying the void is outside of creation but also connected to it at the same time. my reasoning for this was because all things are layered on themselves endlessly but that has nothing to do with being connected to creation apparently

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I never said it contradicts td type 2

i was saying the void is outside of creation but also connected to it at the same time. my reasoning for this was because all things are layered on themselves endlessly but that has nothing to do with being connected to creation apparently

It doesn't. It talks about the time paradox and how everything seems to happen at once all events in every Creation. Hence why you see the events before they happen because there is no time in the Void. There isn't a set point at which these events happen.

The Creation part at the Heart of Eternity is just Creation being created and destroyed filling a portion of the Void that cannot be filled.

 

[Robo432343]

It doesn't. It talks about the time paradox and how everything seems to happen at once all events in every Creation. Hence why you see the events before they happen because there is no time in the Void. There isn't a set point at which these events happen.

The Creation part at the Heart of Eternity is just Creation being created and destroyed filling a portion of the Void that cannot be filled.

yeah exactly

so if there's no proof of the void being connected to creation then it can't be type 2 TD

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

yeah exactly

so if there's no proof of the void being connected to creation then it can't be type 2 TD

Its scope is beyond all forms of duality in the reality. Creation is connected by the Void but the relationship is the Void is just not tied to any system of duality. There are sections of the Void used to make Creation by filling it with Demiurgic Material and those parts make the larger whole.

 

[Robo432343]

Its scope is beyond all forms of duality in the reality. Creation is connected by the Void but the relationship is the Void is just not toes to any system of duality. There are sections of the Void used to make Creation by filling it with Demiurgic Material.

ok i guess this is fine

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

ok i guess this is fine

Remember a part makes up a whole. Those sections do have duality, I was just confused by what you meant.

 

[Xearsay]

First off all I mentioned that the Titans becoming Yahweh help them gain immunity from all powers expect their own which was Yahweh’s. They were “becoming” Yahweh, they did not fully finish in their journey hence why time was against them.

I already said this has no bearing on my argument. You keep repeating it over again, but whether they were still in the process of becoming the new God of creation literally doesn’t matter.

They were still killed by time hax, meaning they aren’t immune to all power like Lucifer claimed they were.

They only gain his power and will. They didn't become eternal because they were never Yahweh, to begin with.

Once again, what you’re saying here doesn’t affect what I’m arguing. I don’t care about why they aren’t eternal or why they weren’t fully the new God of creation.

Even if the sword actually harmed them and did anything does not contradict they were immune to “powers.” How is a sword a “”power.?

You were initially arguing for invulnerability which on this site is treated as an immunity to conventional attacks. Something that can’t be possible since the Giants were hurt by a sword.

If you’re arguing for immunity, you’d need to specify to what type of abilities or hax the Presence is immune to. A simple statement like “I’m immune to all power” aren’t taken literally here as that could give you immunity to every ability on the wiki, which would need much more evidence than just an “immune to all power” statement.

I didn't say Omnipotence give a tier or has a usage here. I was explaining Infinite as described by Yahweh. The description of Infinite and Eternal were used in the same manner, plus looks past that then you cannot differentiate “Eternal.” The descriptions are complementing both Yahweh and the Void. The Buddha story already goes with it as I have explained, the Void is part of Yahweh as Yahweh is it.

I don’t think the description of infinite was being used in the same manner because if the Presence was infinite like the Void he wouldn’t be constantly depicted as a smaller thing contained inside of it. And as I said before, the comic describes the Void as outside of the Presences domain, and the Presence himself literally says that Lucifer escaped his function when Lucifer met him in the Void. That’s 3 pieces of evidence against what you’re claiming.

The only thing left is the Buddha analogy about the Presence being in control of everyone. However that doesn’t support your claim of Void = Presence either because in the analogy, the Presence who is supposed to be the Buddha, was only shown having influence across all the worlds of creation and the Void is beyond creation entirely. Which aligns with all the evidence I mentioned.

Niel Gaiman already stated the Void is of God’s mind and it never stated his contained within it.

That’s because he was repeating a random belief/myth held by the Monks of Klaa from Sandman Overture. However there’s no proof that usage of “void” and “God” is referring to the same things in Mike Carey’s 2000 Lucifer run. Which I don’t believe they are, as the word void in the comic is consistently equated with the empty space of the universe. There’s also no proof that this belief is even true.

Infinity” is a term used to describe a set of numbers without limit. “Infinite” is describing a noun.

You don't say “Oh, God is infinity, so his part of Math.”

That’s not the point. You’re literally arguing semantics. Infinite is just the noun or adjective form of infinity.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that you can have bigger infinites. The Presence was shown to be contained in the Void as a lesser thing. Sure they’re both infinite, but the Void is a larger infinite space than him.

I have already shown you it by quoting what was said with the reference material.

No, I want a link to the scan. Not you quoting some text. An actual link or image that supports what you’re saying.

With TD, I will have to use popular opinion, so if you disagree then we can drop it.

Well I don’t really agree or fully disagree yet for TD type 2, but I don’t know how I’m supposed to formulate an opinion if you’re not really providing a reason or evidence for TD type 2.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I already said this has no bearing on my argument. You keep repeating it over again, but whether they were still in the process of becoming the new God of creation literally doesn’t matter.

They were still killed by time hax, meaning they aren’t immune to all power like Lucifer claimed they were.

It wasn't time had that killed them if you understand what happened. It was the spell that did. Here is what happened:

When the Titans usurp Yahweh's space to fill and take his powers they needed the humans to believe they were “Yahweh.” When the Titans were tricked by Lucifer, they decided to use Beatrice because she has memories of Lucifer and they used their “power and will” to create Duinum.

This is why Mazikeen came up with a spell using her blood but cause it was her key ingredient to creating the failed copy. It undid what affected her and since they expressed their power it would undo them. The power they had killed them not whatever time had you thought it did.

Why? Remember Lucifer states their immune to everything but their power. By using Beatrice as a conduit, it was their own power that undid them which affect them since they gain power. Then Lucifer killed them at that time before they gain the power to transcend time. Lucifer killed the Titans before they had any power, so it doesn't contradict anything. Also, Lucifer's statement came after Michael questioned how they were immune to the Demiurgic Power.

I hope this explains what actually happens, Xearsey.

Once again, what you’re saying here doesn’t affect what I’m arguing. I don’t care about why they aren’t eternal or why they weren’t fully the new God of creation.

It does because you claim it was “time hax” which it wasn't.

You were initially arguing for invulnerability which on this site is treated as an immunity to conventional attacks. Something that can’t be possible since the Giants were hurt by a sword.

The sword did the damage, not Lucifer. Not to mention it's never been started they fully became Yahweh because they needed to learn tricks like Omnipresence and transcend time.

However, what's more, important is the Titans are physical being. Lucifer Will can't affect them but it can hurt their body which was physical.

Lucifer is made of Flame and Will. His essence is made of those to the point he bleeds willpower. So when his “physical body” was burned to ashes it had no intended effect on his being. The only thing that held him back is his own word/will which was the magic hidden in the feather holding him back.

Ibriel states angels are like flames, they kindle everlasting because they are the essence without shape. Ibriel physical body can be harmed but ultimately he might have only gone into the Mansions of Silence. Which isn't an afterlife per se, so he's not technically dead.

Also, note how Lilith managed to hit Yahweh, and she as well as Yahweh felt it. This is because that form is taking damage, not Yahweh. When physical flesh, they can only be harmed through the flesh. This also comes in with power and will. What Lilith did had nothing to do with power but will. She “will” herself to hit Yahweh and the will of her action affected Yahweh, however, that's not power and only hit his fleshed body. Like how a sword harmed Lucifer's physical body.

Like Lucifer said what is might without will expect the Titans had both and they “willed” him not to move.

If you’re arguing for immunity, you’d need to specify to what type of abilities or hax the Presence is immune to. A simple statement like “I’m immune to all power” aren’t taken literally here as that could give you immunity to every ability on the wiki, which would need much more evidence than just an “immune to all power” statement.

There's clear evidence with context and I mention above and you want “scans.” So please save the regressed idea that statement had meant nothing to you.

I don’t think the description of infinite was being used in the same manner because if the Presence was infinite like the Void he wouldn’t be constantly depicted as a smaller thing contained inside of it. And as I said before, the comic describes the Void as outside of the Presences domain, and the Presence himself literally says that Lucifer escaped his function when Lucifer met him in the Void. That’s 3 pieces of evidence against what you’re claiming

Except like you mentioned they were addressing they are the same. Yahweh is the form that was shaped, so when receiving infinite to his form would refer to power. That's why he says it after Lucifer told him the story meant he held all the keys.

The Void isn't physical, so the word is describing size hence why the next quotation is describing nothing that can fill it. The usage of the words would have less irony had the story not been told and if Yahweh decide not to dress up in that body. Jesus manifested as flesh and was around average size yet his “God.”

The only thing left is the Buddha analogy about the Presence being in control of everyone. However that doesn’t support your claim of Void = Presence either because in the analogy, the Presence who is supposed to be the Buddha, was only shown having influence across all the worlds of creation and the Void is beyond creation entirely. Which aligns with all the evidence I mentioned.

That wasn't being in control that was with context when Lucifer mentions it. It was talking about how nowhere could he go or do anything without God driving influence.

Flying across all the worlds to the edge of infinity. Look at the wording as well across all the worlds until he reached the other side of infinity which was said to be the Void. Replace the wording and look what you get:

“--Across all the worlds until he landed on the other side of Void.”

If you replace Infinity with the Void it makes the sentence the same. What's beyond the worlds? Obviously the Void

Where after he finishes his deed jumps back to Creation. He also tells Buddha, if he could leap as far as he did to a place where the worlds end. The Void is where the worlds end, ironic to Lucifer because he imprinted his Will in the Void to make his Creation yet it did nothing as for Monkey King to Buddha.

The Void separates Creation by distance, not time. So he leaped into the Void the structure where all Creation is held. This is a metaphor to Lucifer creating the Universe in the Void, to test if it were to free him of God’s influence. Which was the point of the Monkey King going to the other side of Infinity(Void).

That’s because he was repeating a random belief/myth held by the Monks of Klaa from Sandman Overture. However there’s no proof that usage of “void” and “God” is referring to the same things in Mike Carey’s 2000 Lucifer run. Which I don’t believe they are, as the word void in the comic is consistently equated with the empty space of the universe. There’s also no proof that this belief is even true.

Yahweh is God. Carey and Gaiman's works intertwined. This God that's not taking shape like Yahweh was. It's his work so unless it was changed then it applies to the San man Universe which Lucifer series is part of. The Void has always been empty well the whole thing, not a portion where the Heart of Eternity is.

It also mentioned how the Monks “know.”

The monks of Klaa knows that the Universe is a distraction in the mind of God: As God meditates, seeking to clear its mind and achieve perfect enlightenment, ideas drift across the Void.

Oh “perfect enlightenment” Isn't that something Buddha achieved? That's meant to symbolize Yahweh.

That’s not the point. You’re literally arguing semantics. Infinite is just the noun or adjective form of infinity.

Usage of words with context and setting matters. In what Universe did you believe that infinity was referring to mathematics?

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that you can have bigger infinites. The Presence was shown to be contained in the Void as a lesser thing. Sure they’re both infinite, but the Void is a larger infinite space than him.

That's because he using flesh. His not “space” if anything his the size of a regular human who would fit 0.0000001% of the Void.

No, I want a link to the scan. Not you quoting some text. An actual link or image that supports what you’re saying.

Alright, have it your way. All links are above.

Well I don’t really agree or fully disagree yet for TD type 2, but I don’t know how I’m supposed to formulate an opinion if you’re not really providing a reason or evidence for TD type 2.

Ok I already said it with Robo. So go there for your proof.

 

[Xearsay]

Why? Remember Lucifer states they’re immune to everything but their power. By using Beatrice as a conduit, it was their own power that undid them which affect them since they gain power. Then Lucifer killed them at that time before they gain the power to transcend time. Lucifer killed the Titans before they had any power, so it doesn't contradict anything.

You just contradicted yourself. First you said it was their own power that killed them, which isn’t stated in any of your scans. Then you said Lucifer killed the Titans at the time before they had any powers.

The sword did the damage, not Lucifer.

Yes and if you’re invulnerable a random sword shouldn’t be able to hurt you.

Also, note how Lilith managed to hit Yahweh, and she as well as Yahweh felt it. This is because that form is taking damage, not Yahweh.

Where’s the proof that the Presence we see there is a lesser form of a higher form that is infinite in comparison?

There's clear evidence with context and I mention above and you want “scans.” So please save the regressed idea that statement had meant nothing to you.

No there isn’t. All you’ve posted was an “immune to all powers” statement. Which is nowhere near enough to justify a character being immune to every ability on the wiki. To prove such a thing you’d need literally examples of the Titans resisting every ability on the wiki.

Except like you mentioned they were addressing they are the same.

I didn’t mention they were addressing the same thing. I specifically gave you three pieces of evidence that directly prove The Presence = Void isn’t the case, and you interacted with absolutely none of them. Instead you repeated that the Presence is just a form the Void is taking, despite not posting any evidence for such a thing.

Flying across all the worlds to the edge of infinity. Look at the wording as well across all the worlds until he reached the other side of infinity which was said to be the Void. Replace the wording and look what you get:

“--Across all the worlds until he landed on the other side of Void.”

If you replace Infinity with the Void it makes the sentence the same. What's beyond the worlds? Obviously the Void

The Void was never equated with infinity within the Buddha story and you haven’t given a single scan that proves such a thing. You can’t just editorialize what’s written in the text to try and prove your point.

Yahweh is God. Carey and Gaiman's works intertwined. This God that's not taking shape like Yahweh was. It's his work so unless it was changed then it applies to the San man Universe which Lucifer series is part of. The Void has always been empty well the whole thing, not a portion where the Heart of Eternity is.

It’s possible that the God the monks of Klaa believe in is the Presence, however nothing really suggest such a thing. Furthermore, as I already said, void in that context isn’t referring to a Void outside of creation and is instead referring to the empty space that separates stuff like galaxies within the universe.

Usage of words with context and setting matters. In what Universe did you believe that infinity was referring to mathematics?

Sometimes but you were stressing was literally irrelevant to my point. Also, I was expressing that infinity was related to math, not that it specifically refers to mathematics. However this doesn’t really matter.

That's because he using flesh. His not “space” if anything his the size of a regular human who would fit 0.0000001% of the Void.

Once again, where is the proof the Presence we see there is a lesser form of a higher form that is infinite in comparison?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You just contradicted yourself. First you said it was their own power that killed them, which isn’t stated in any of your scans. Then you said Lucifer killed the Titans at the time before they had any powers.

Or.....I was rewording and it doesn't change the fact he couldn't kill them with any of his power while they were assuming Godhood. “Undid them” does not mean they died just they lost their powers.

I showed the scan that mentions Lucifer himself they were immune to all powers except their own and this was after they were destroyed so unless something contradicts it then it remains true.

He didn't kill them while they had the power as that's literally what was protecting them. Without Beatrice, they would lose including the children of Yahweh.

Yes and if you’re invulnerable a random sword shouldn’t be able to hurt you.

It “physically” harmed them because the Titans are not conceptual. That's why they bleed when they were hit. The sword cut their skin, a sword isn't a power. You can hit Yahweh, Elaine, Lucifer, and the angels despite them technically being more conceptual than physical. Angels are formed from their essence, Ibirel looks like a human with wings because they form themselves. The Endless are anthropomorphic as ideas in flesh because why does “Dream” look human? It's a concept, not physical unless they take form and shape.

Where’s the proof that the Presence we see there is a lesser form of a higher form that is infinite in comparison?

Yahweh is the same as his true form. One is taken shape, the other is formless its not any lesser form. He still is infinite as Yahweh but more so with power. With his non-shaped form, it's more infinite as it is everything, and the Void is included as we learn from the story. Lucifer literally tells him that he fits his role and hiding under that flesh is a bit grotesque as he could never understand what it feels like to be controlled because he is always in control.

No there isn’t. All you’ve posted was an “immune to all powers” statement. Which is nowhere near enough to justify a character being immune to every ability on the wiki. To prove such a thing you’d need literally examples of the Titans resisting every ability on the wiki

They literally tried to harm the Titans. Michael stated they were immune to his power and Lucifer clarify all their powers. Power and Will define everything and these two didn't do much against the Titan. Lucifer's light can't affect the source of the Light and Michael cannot outpower the power of his power.

.


I didn’t mention they were addressing the same thing. I specifically gave you three pieces of evidence that directly prove The Presence = Void isn’t the case, and you interacted with absolutely none of them. Instead you repeated that the Presence is just a form the Void is taking, despite not posting any evidence for such a thing.

No, you didn't. You just said the Void isn't his domain which doesn't disapprove anything nor made sense as a point. He used the Void to make space then created Lucifer and Michael to enact Creation.

Then you said levels of infinity without taking into context that infinity is infinity. Plus a level of infinity is space shouldn't correlate to higher infinity than that of power. It makes no sense to day one is higher than another.

You said his in the Void but that doesn't disapprove anything because he took form to act with his Creation. Jesus took form on Earth, and “appeared human” in size yet God is bigger than the Universe and these two are the same. Yahweh is the form of God believed through the Jewish belief hence the Titans tried to target that part of the belief system.

The Void was never equated with infinity within the Buddha story and you haven’t given a single scan that proves such a thing. You can’t just editorialize what’s written in the text to try and prove your point.

Not really. Infinity has only been referenced with two beings the Void and Yahweh. The Monkey was going into a “location” on the other side of the infinity which us the Void.

When Lucifer asked for a letter of passage he did so to access the “other side of the sky.” Not to mention if the Monkey wanted to be out of Buddha's reach he would have to go outside of Creation, remember within the context it also refers to Lucifer and Yahweh.

Lucifer assumed creating a Universe of his own wasn't part of the Plan and would let him have free will. The Monkey King tried something that Buddha couldn't yet in both stories the prideful one lost even being in the place where “God” shouldn't have reached that place is the Void.

It couldn't be any more clear. I don't see where you misunderstand the story.

It’s possible that the God the monks of Klaa believe in is the Presence, however nothing really suggest such a thing. Furthermore, as I already said, void in that context isn’t referring to a Void outside of creation and is instead referring to the empty space that separates stuff like galaxies within the universe.

Yahweh is God. A Muslim follower tells us that “Allah” hands Dream dominion over everything not real. What God did you think it's referring to. Who's the God of Creation: Yahweh, the only being with the power and status to which the Monk can indirectly refer to. In the Sandman Universe, only Michael, Elaine, and Yahweh can affect the Void.

Wouldn't be a stretch to assume you think God means Zeus or something like that.

Sometimes but you were stressing was literally irrelevant to my point. Also, I was expressing that infinity was related to math, not that it specifically refers to mathematics. However this doesn’t really matter.

Then you made a baseless claim. I never defined infinity is of math you brought it out of the blue.

Once again, where is the proof the Presence we see there is a lesser form of a higher form that is infinite in comparison?

They take shape through belief. I've shown you but you simply don't seem to see the most obvious thing. So you're assuming the Old Man is what he looks like? He only took that shape while talking to Elaine and the Light form to Lucifer because he interacted with his creation through those.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that all of this seems uncontroversial to add. A small part of it, such as air manipulation, seems unnecessary though.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think that all of this seems uncontroversial to add. A small part of it, such as air manipulation, seems unnecessary though.

That's fine. I'm just a bit tired from arguing with Xearsey on the most obvious point. Also with the revision, he should be in the same tier as Void 1-C. As I have explained.

 

[Xearsay]

I think that all of this seems uncontroversial to add. A small part of it, such as air manipulation, seems unnecessary though.

Ant he’s literally trying to grant the Presence immunity to every ability on the wiki because he was called “immune to every power.” I think that’s very controversial.

 

[Deagonx]

Ant he’s literally trying to grant the Presence immunity to every ability on the wiki

Which part of the OP are you referring to?

 

[Xearsay]

Which part of the OP are you referring to?

It’s not in the OP but it’s something he argued later on.

Me - A simple statement like “I’m immune to all power” aren’t taken literally here as that could give you immunity to every ability on the wiki, which would need much more evidence than just an “immune to all power” statement.

Goofy - There's clear evidence with context and I mention above and you want “scans.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It’s not in the OP but it’s something he argued later on.

Me - A simple statement like “I’m immune to all power” aren’t taken literally here as that could give you immunity to every ability on the wiki, which would need much more evidence than just an “immune to all power” statement.

Goofy - There's clear evidence with context and I mention above and you want “scans.

I don't know where you assume this but immunity is referenced to lower beings and how Lucifer and Michael can't affect Yahweh. Very evidently clear they couldn't.

 

[Deagonx]

It’s not in the OP but it’s something he argued later on

If it's not in the OP it doesn't matter. The only things that will be applied are the abilities in the OP that have been agreed upon by staff. I doubt anyone read the long back and forth between you guys.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If it's not in the OP it doesn't matter. The only things that will be applied are the abilities in the OP that have been agreed upon by staff. I doubt anyone read the long back and forth between you guys.

We came to that random conclusion because Xearsey was against invulnerability.

Xearsey:

Not being able to do anything against someone =/= you’re invulnerable to them.

Which is very contradictory to what we know of Yahweh.

 

[Antvasima]

If it's not in the OP it doesn't matter. The only things that will be applied are the abilities in the OP that have been agreed upon by staff. I doubt anyone read the long back and forth between you guys.

Yes, agreed.