The Dovahkiin vs Morgoth

[Waria_Kambang]

Have the Staff of Magnus 1-B range? We ended up talking about the Staff of Magnus because we couldn't reach agreement on something else being able to kill Morgoth once and for all.

the Staff of Magnus was still able to drain enough power from the Eye of Magnus to the point where Ancano's power was completely cut off. This is the same Ancano who with that limited power stated that he has the power to destroy the world.

"You've come for me, have you? You think i don't know what you're up to? You think i can't destroy you? The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anything about it?" - Ancano

Not to mention that the Staff of Magnus have been stated as being a metaphysical battery. And the Psijic acknowledge the Staff enough to the point they sent you on a quest to find it knowing full well that the fate of Mundus is in balance and has been stated as the only staff that can contain the Eye of Magnus power by Mirabelle Ervin.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Have the Staff of Magnus 1-B range?

I check the page:

Up to High Hyperversal with Non-Combative Thu'um

This implies that his range is High Hyperversal only with "Non-Combative Thu'um." Is the Staff of Magnus "Non-Combative Thu'um"?

About everything else, the Dovahkiin's range is one of the following:

• Extended Melee Range

• Hundreds of Meters

• Kilometers

Which means (Unless the Staff of Magnus is "Non-Combative Thu'um") that Morgoth should be able to escape. As for Time Slow, not a chance. Time comes from Vairë, who Morgoth is far above (Even in his third key, much less second or first).

 

[Zhepar]

No, this is a staff that was from Magnus(aedra of magic) and dont have a profile yet, as a aedric artifact it should be compared to auriel bow that can affect aetherius(as show in dawnguard) a infinite dimensional plane, so it has a High 1-B range

 

[Waria_Kambang]

I check the page:

Up to High Hyperversal with Non-Combative Thu'um

This implies that his range is High Hyperversal only with "Non-Combative Thu'um." Is the Staff of Magnus "Non-Combative Thu'um"?

About everything else, the Dovahkiin's range is one of the following:

• Extended Melee Range

• Hundreds of Meters

• Kilometers

Which means (Unless the Staff of Magnus is "Non-Combative Thu'um") that Morgoth should be able to escape. As for Time Slow, not a chance. Time comes from Vairë, who Morgoth is far above (Even in his third key, much less second or first).


Unless Morgoth somehow have prior knowledge about the staff and somehow have enough time to run away from getting his power and his health (Staff of Magnus also absorb health) immediately drained, then he is not going to get away from the the Dovahkiin.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Morgoth has recovered from having his power being drained, and Melkor is much stronger than Morgoth.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Morgoth has recovered from having his power being drained, and Melkor is much stronger than Morgoth.

How long does it take?

Saga89 said that Morgoth was able to restore his power thanks to temporary residence in the void outside of space and time, so can he also recover his power if he is not in there?

How much power did he lost last time? Because the Staff of Magnus would not only literally drain all of his power the moment it touches him, but it will also completely drain his health too.

 

[SinsofMan]

You know what, I praise that regular members have turned this into a legitimate debate with little to no logical fallacies and I love it. I salute you all Ill vote soon, but I honestly think just his Thuum will be enough to win assuming they are not above what you might expect Melkor's can handle. Or even dish out to kill The Dragonborn.

 

[MasterOfArda]

How long does it take?

Morgoth (Who is infinitly below Melkor) was able to heal in indeterminate timespan but at least several thousand years. However, Morgoth is infinitly below Melkor.

Saga89 said that Morgoth was able to restore his power thanks to temporary residence in the void outside of space and time, so can he also recover his power if he is not in there?

Saga89 is incorrect. He simply recovered to to his nature.

How much power did he lost last time? Because the Staff of Magnus would not only literally drain all of his power the moment it touches him, but it will also completely drain his health too.

He was killed and had his power drained.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

"Morgoth is infinitly below Melkor."

I would like to see proof for that.

And Saga89 also said that it's in Morgoth's character to surrender if his power is threatened, so that's still a possibility.

 

[MasterOfArda]

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Yeah, just realise that recently, sorry. But i'm pretty sure being infinitely above someone in AP doesn't mean you will be able to regenerate your power faster.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Not, but Melkor also exists beyond Time, so the Time it takes to regenerate wouldn't be relevant, right?

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Not, but Melkor also exists beyond Time, so the Time it takes to regenerate wouldn't be relevant, right?

Of course it would be relevant. If it took him too long (pretty sure it's one day in this Wiki) to regenerate, then it will be an automatic win for the Dovahkiin. Yes he is beyond time, but if it still took him thousand of years to regenerate, then under the wiki rule, it will still be a lost. And according to Melkor's profile, if a Valar gets killed, then they will turn in to spirit, which Dovahkiin can damage and soul trap with his Soul Tear shout.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Well the idea of a thousand years doesn't really exist.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Bend Will is a thing. And its non-combative so...

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Well the idea of a thousand years doesn't really exist.

Unless you can prove that Melkor doesn't need thousands of years to regenerate, then he still lost according to this wiki rule. And again, he still get soul trapped by Soul Tear shout.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

snips

Bottom line is that, Morgoth is beyond time, but his Regenerationn is not since Regenerationn doesn't scale with.AP. It will still take him thousands of years to regenerate and to obtain his power back, which according to this Wiki rule is an automatic loss.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Alright, but Morgoth also has power absorption.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Alright, but Morgoth also has power absorption.

Dovahkiin resist power nullification.

 

[MasterOfArda]

But if Melkor absorbs the Staff of Magnus, he could repilcate its attacks.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Guys, don't forget the Prisoner Metaphysics.

 

[SinsofMan]

Alright, but Morgoth also has power absorption.

Dovahkiin resist power nullification.

Power Nullification =/= Power Absorption.

We treat both seperately iirc.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

But if Melkor absorbs the Staff of Magnus, he could repilcate its attacks.

And how will he absorb it? Just take it off from Dovahkiin's hand? Or by tanking the staff absorbtion affect?

If it's the letter, then he will probably die trying. The Staff of Magnus absorbtion power is way, way, way above what Melkor can absorb or do. It was able to drain the Eye of Magnus enough that it close itself back and thus cut off Ancano's power who with same exact power would have destroy Mundus. Any attempt at trying to absorb the staff attack would instead result in Melkor's power being absorbed.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Snips

Figure. But ability such as the Thu'um comes from your understanding and knowledge about words of power. So unless Melkor can straight up steal knowledge, then i don't think it will work.

 

[Saga89]

Scaling from the deeds of Gandalf against the Bane of Durin and the Witch King at the gates of Minas Tirith, Morgoth already has prior knowledge about things like words of power.

Going back to the staff, Ancano is clearly in some kind of delusional state when speaking that so I would take his world on the matter with a grain of salt. Even if he sparks the truth, I found debatable that having some way to interact with a greater power source automatically grants a 1-B range. To my knowledge even Auriel's Bow wouldn't be able to interact with Aetherius if not for a pre-existing portal (which is what the sun is), so I'd like some explanation on the subject.

Please elaborate.


We already have discussed Bend Will. Prisoner metaphisic is a trap: if every choice made by any player is correct, that would made Miraak simultaneously both weaker and stronger than Alduin, making impossible to evaluating their relative power and so the Dovahkiin's.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Miraak is stronger than Alduin and Prisoner Metaphysics has nothing to do with it. In this battle, it ensures that the Dovahkiin uses the right hax for the right occasion, counters Morgoth's attempts at every step, and because Dovahkiin can theoretically win, he does.

 

[Saga89]

You can go straight to face Miraak as a 8-C or 6-A. Prisoner metaphisic makes this as correct as facing him post-Alduin. Also, if every player choice is always correct, than if anyone ever died and loaded a save that death also would be as "canon" as everything else. So in the grand scheme of things the Dovahkiin died more often than he succeeded.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Snips

The Eye having power to destroy Mundus is clearly supported by the Psijic since they literally stated after that battle that the Eye of Magnus (which is Ancano's power source) have the power to destroy the world. So Ancano was not lying. And again, Melkor really have no idea what the staff is capable off. So him immediately run away without any prior knowledge is not exactly possible. The moment the staff power touch Melkor, the moment he die.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

You can go straight to face Miraak as a 8-C or 6-A. Prisoner metaphisic makes this as correct as facing him post-Alduin. Also, if every player choice is always correct, than if anyone ever died and loaded a save that death also would be as "canon" as everything else. So in the grand scheme of things the Dovahkiin died more often than he succeeded.

The Prisoner metaphysics is quite controversial, this is what Matt got to say about it:

"Everyone here talking about first moves are blissfully unaware of how TES Metaphysics work

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...hy#The_Prisoner:_The_Hero_Who_Frees_The_World

The Prisoner is free from the chains of causality and determinism that bind the Dream of the Godhead, and thus have true free will to be as they are, walk any path they choose and do as they will.

They can be of any race, any gender, and do anything, and it will be all simultaneously and equally true regardless of contradictions, as the Prisoner is an entity that exists outside all possibility-points (Possible future branching paths).

So the Dovahkiin will have every item they can use, every spell they can use, and will be able to act with maximum efficiency and use the best spells, shouts, techniques and attacks for the situation at hand." -Matthew Schroeder

Again, you might have to ask Matthew about these things. But most of us treat it as him being able to do things the most efficient way, since he does everything all at once. I'm afraid debating it here will turn this debate into a trainwreck.

 

[Saga89]

That's exactly what we are discussing: if the dovahkiin have a winning strategy. Hence came the whole Staff of Magnus thing.


The Eye having power to destroy Mundus is clearly supported by the Psijic since they literally stated after that battle that the Eye of Magnus (which is Ancano's power source) have the power to destroy the world. So his words is not a lie. And again, Melkor really have no idea what the staff is capable off. So him immediately run away without any prior knowledge is not exactly really possible. The moment the staff power touch Melkor, the moment he died.

That statement is unclear: it could be referred to Nirn and the power required to destroy Nirn is not anywhere near to the power required to destroy Morgoth.


Also, Morgoth near-omniscence (as shown with the whole "sons of Hurin" affair) would make the staff and its powers known the instant they are within the same reality. If they both stick to their respective best option, they may both die. I still vote inconclusive

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Snips

Psijic Order stated that the world is not ready for the eye and that it cannot remain in this world and then proceed to teleport said eye into Arteum, which exist outside of Mundus. If they are talking about Nirn, then they will only teleport it outside of Nirn. Not to mention that Ancano was motivated by Thalmor's ultimate plan, specifically the part where their plan is to destroy Mundus. All of these makes it clear that the Psijic was talking about Mundus.

No, he will not immediately know it's power. When it said nigh-omniscient in Melkor's profile, it means he is nigh-omniscient about things in his universe. Doesn't mean he will start knowing things outside of his universe. Read the intelligence page, specifically the omniscient part. It clearly mentioned that just because a character is omniscient in their respective universe, it doesn't grant them knowledge about other character from different universe. No reason for nigh-omniscient to be any different, especially since it's an inferior version of omniscient.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Please elaborate.

Morgoth recovered simply because he is a primordial entity, tied to the universe. So long as the universe exists, he will always return.

 

[Saga89]

The Sons of Hurin affair shows Melkor's near-omniscence extends way further than the Ainulindale: Men, Elves and their fate are both outside of it being part of Iluvatar's third movement but Morgoth was still able to sense the forging of Anglachel and the malice whithin the blade and follow every act of the children of Hurin. Among the other Valar, only Ulmo has shown a somewhat similar ability to scry over the children of Iluvatar, but only were there was a considerable amount of pure water. Given how this seems to be more akin to Clairvoyance than Nigh-Omniscience, I'd argue Morgoth would have this ability outside of Arda.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

The Sons of Hurin affair shows Melkor's near-omniscence extends way further than the Ainulindale: Men, Elves and their fate are both outside of it being part of Iluvatar's third movement but Morgoth was still able to sense the forging of Anglachel and the malice whithin the blade and follow every act of the children of Hurin. Among the other Valar, only Ulmo has shown a somewhat similar ability to scry over the children of Iluvatar, but only were there was a considerable amount of pure water. Given how this seems to be more akin to Clairvoyance than Nigh-Omniscience, I'd argue Morgoth would have this ability outside of Arda.

Melkor's clairvoyance sounds like Enhanced Sight, which won't allow him to know the staff capability. And the Staff of Magnus do not give off any sort of magical energy to sense since Tolfdir when he sees the staff was not even sure about it's capabiliity.

 

[Saga89]

Then I'd say it is still inconclusive. Morgoth may:

A) get cocky and attack with something that may or may not work

B) get angry and wank the universe hard enough to destroy it (again) just because he can

C) his cowardly nature surfaces and surrender before the staff completely drain him.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Then I'd say it is still inconclusive. Morgoth may:

A) get cocky and attack with something that may or may not work

B) get angry and wank the universe hard enough to destroy it (again) just because he can

C) his cowardly nature surfaces and surrender before the staff completely drain him.

A. What is Melkor's first attack in character? Do he immediately use his magma manipulation, or his curse manipulation, or his ice manipulation, or what?

B. Why would he get angry for no reason when he fight the Dovahkiin?

C. Which would count as a win for the Dovahkiin.

From what i've read about Melkor, scenario one is the most likely to happen, which is why i ask you what Melkor start with in character.

 

[Saga89]

He's shown fighting at his full 2-C power only twice, at the beginning of time and again at the Dagor Dagorath, but both times he went straight for B.

The notion alone of someone opposing him while at his peak it is usually enough to enrage him. Furthermore destroying everything is his goal, so he should do it if he can (and while at his full power he sure can). Then again, if the fight doesn't take place on Arda/Ea he may not care for total annihilation, idk.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

He's shown fighting at his full 2-C power only twice, at the beginning of time and again at the Dagor Dagorath, but both times he went straight for B.

The notion alone of someone opposing him while at his peak it is usually enough to enrage him. Furthermore destroying everything is his goal, so he should do it if he can (and while at his full power he sure can). Then again, if the fight doesn't take place on Arda/Ea he may not care for total annihilation, idk.

Maybe some other LotR supporter can help us determine what Melkor's starting move is and the context behind said two fights?

Edit: Also, how did he destroy the universe last time? Did he speak, or snap his finger, or do some kind of ritual?

 

[MasterOfArda]

Maybe some other LotR supporter can help us determine what Melkor's starting move is and the context behind said two fights?

Edit: Also, how did he destroy the universe last time? Did he speak, or snap his finger, or do some kind of ritual?

a) In the Ainulindalë he opened with Conceptual Manipulation to destroy the universe. I think he was still 3-A in Dagor Dagoroth.

b) He spoke.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Dagor Dagorath says he's gonna retrieve his full power again.