The Dovahkiin vs Morgoth

[Zhepar]

This does not matter, Dragonborn gain the power and knowledge of miraak when he killed him via soul absorption, so if there' s a trick he knows it now and still Daedric artifacts like Wabajjack and mehures razor could insta kill morgoth with prisoner methaphysics, auriel bow could kill from other planes that morgoth cant reach

 

[Saga89]

This does not matter, Dragonborn gain the power and knowledge of miraak when he killed him via soul absorption, so if there' s a trick he knows it now and still Daedric artifacts like Wabajjack and mehures razor could insta kill morgoth with prisoner methaphysics, auriel bow could kill from other planes that morgoth cant reach

It may or it may not gain it since Hermaeus Mora may be involved in the trick; Apocrypha is, after all, its (Hermaeus) own domain, and Daedric Lords are implied to be able to manipulate time within these confines. Regarding daedric artifacts, dragons automatically resist most of their effects, possibly because of their type 4 Acausality, in-lore this was confirmed by Molag Bal inability to alter, control or bribe the dragon Boziikkodstrun, not even mentioned to be particularly powerful among the dovah. The only power that the Daedra can excert upon the dovah is the destruction of their physical form, like the fire/cold/el├▓ettricity effects from Sheogorat's staff of Mehrunes killing edge. As I have already explained though, Morgoth is an ealar, a concept able to don a fana/physical body when this suits its whim, arguably making Morgoth a type 4 or 5 Acausality itself, and the destruction of its fana would be really nothing to him as he can create a new one with little effort.

As for the extraplanar targeting ability, Valar and Maiar are shown to be able to interact with Arda after Valinor was sundered and placed in a different plane of existence (mainly Tilion and Arien being able to go effortlessy from Valinor to Arda and viceversa), and Morgoth is said to be able to do everything its good counterparts are able to do. Even better, the concept embodied by Morgoth clearly continued to manipulate Arda even after Morgoth himself was shut out of the Door of Night.

 

[Zhepar]

1-No, Molag Bal was trying to convince Boziikkodstrun to reveal the secret behind the thu um, he later killed, altered and controled his body to create the daedric titans, because he could not discover it. So Daedric princes cant mind control dragons, so is not Hermaeus controling the dragons , is Miraak.

2-Spear of Bitter Mercy is said to be able to defeat Mehures dagon that have type 5 Acausality, so Acausality dont mean much to Daedric Artifacts.

3-And no, not even Eru Il├║vatar has the range of auriel bow, it has a High Hyperverse range, it affect the sun that is a portal to Aetherius and aetherius is external to oblivion a infinite dimensional plane

 

[Zhepar]

Sorry, is not thu um is the "secrets of his race's domination of mortals" the reason molag did this

 

[Saga89]

not even Eru Il├║vatar

Are you sure you want to enter this field? Arda is intended as a mythological past of the real world. That, means Eru Iluvatar would be a "real" god in nowday world were Auriel, Padomay, Anu, Sithis, Nir, Daedric Princes are merely fiction. Even without putting that into account, there is also to say that real world relativistic mechanics put to shame any concept of space-time as explained in TES as they are all based on the common notion of time (and so also space) as a scalar and fundamental quantity and the possible logical paradox of non-relativistic physics, all things that lose meaning in an universe where the laws of special relativity are valid. Eru Iluvutar would just not care about them because he is all and nothing at the same time: everything, everywhere, everywhen and the opposite of each. Eru Iluvatar created an infinite universe and an infinite void and exists simultaneously inside both of them and and outside them. Auri-El/Akatosh needs to be linear in order to be sane? Eru Iluvatar needs not, and cares not, he is the Secret Flame that can be found everywhere and nowhere at the same time, moved by nothing but its own will.

Back to the topic of Miraak, what I meant was that within the Apocrypha time-altering shenanigans may the the reason why Miraak's Bend Will may be of infinite duration. We need to rule out this eventuality before attributing that ability to the Dovakiin.

And again, the Spear of Bitter Mercy is "said" to be able to "defeat" a Daedric Prince. So, it's not an attested ability and again, we need to ascertain what "defeat" means: Martin Septim destroyed Dagon's physical body but that didn't put an end to the Daedric Prince's existence. We don't know if even "killing" a daedra within Aetherius would be enough to permanently destroy its vestige.

EDIT: btw I would be grateful if someone can direct me to where to read about the "prisoner methaphysics".

 

[Zhepar]

Chapter5

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...hy#The_Prisoner:_The_Hero_Who_Frees_The_World

 

[Paul_Frank]

Matt blog is the only place that talks about prisoner metaphysics at all

So the tldr is

Prisoner metaphysics was what Bethesda uses to explain character creation and choices

The prisoner is a constant that is an impossipoint and walks all paths at once

Meaning everything you can do in tes is equally valid

Running around with your first and punching alduin to death is as valid as fighting him with only shouts as both of those happen and the protagonist does them all

This grants them acausality of course as they are unbound by time and such

The problem comes in with the rest of what is pushed with it

They say that Nocturnal and her forces having a 99.99% chance to win and losing grants the Vestige and thus the prisoner resistance to probability manip which is not at all how it works

They also say that since all options are equally valid we instantly start out with the best case scenario for the character and Ontop of that if they have a .00000001% chance to win it becomes a 100% chance which as I said is completely incorrect and even if we accept it that means the elderscrolls protagonists can have no matches made that aren't stomps in either direction

 

[Zhepar]

Eru Il├║vatar range is Range: Low Multiversal or 2-C, below Auriel Bow and even if you could upgrade his range, morgoth would still be the same and below auriel and the battle is against morgoth.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Eru_Ilúvatar

And the spear can defeat a daedric prince "https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Spear_of_Bitter_Mercy" as stated by Yagrum, it was used by the hero of the aprentice to defeat mehures dagon.

For Apocrypha time manipulation i will see, but that make sense.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

As I mentioned undeads, remember Durnehviir was undead, so it was no overlook by the developers that turned him immune to Bend Will.

All other forms of undead (including powerful ones, like the other 9 Dragon Priests) are affected by Bend Will, even non-sentient automatons. Durnehviir doesn't even register Bend Will in-game--it doesn't count as a resist in the mechanics, it simply has no effect--and continues to act as if you never used the Shout on him in the first place. This was an oversight/bug, plain and simple, due in part to the mechanics of summoning Durnehviir (unlike Odahviing, who flies in from off-screen, Durnehviir is literally conjured from the Soul Cairn by Shouting his name, meaning he counts as a summoned pet in-game), and in part from the fact that Durnehviir was coded into the game before Bend Will.

 

[Saga89]

Ty you both for the link.

Iirc Durnehviir is staggered just as any regular undead, but I may be wrong.

Regarding the spear: we all know Dagon is still around, and so my point still stand: even if something is able to destroy a Daedric Prince physical manifestation, nothing still has benn proved able to really destroy it. The same can be said about Alduin as, after its defeat and the destruction of its physical body, time is still linear in TES world so it still has its "end" personified by Alduin itself. This is also proved by the fact that the Dovahkiin cannot absorb Alduin's soul. And if the Dovahkiin is not able to destroy Alduin completely, I need convincing he can definitely and completely destroy an ealar, which AFAIK is pretty much an equivalent to Alduin if not with a superior and wider range of powers.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Alduin dies permanently as it's the reason why c0da even happens.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

snips

The Tribunal are not some sort of amatures who failed horribly. They are a literal gods that can destroy a low 1-C across all points of time. They were able to keep up and defeat the true from of Mehrunes Dagon. And again, it's irrelevant. Azura's Star is a infinite in size and is an extension of a low 1-C being. No way Morgoth is getting out of that.

2. No, it's not an assumption. Dragonrend basically assert the concept of mortality on Alduin as true and then enforcing it on reality. This in turn also causes Alduin to be forced to understand what mortality means (which he can't understand). Nulling Alduin's immortality and at the same time forcing him to land because it break his concentration enough that he can't fly. Just because someone understand the meaning of mortality, doesn't mean they will resist the power nulling. They Will only resist the concentration part since Dragonrend immortality-nulling-mechanic doesn't require someone to not understand the concept of mortality

3. Alduin IS dead:

"So, it is done. Alduin dilon ( (Alduin's dead)). The Eldest is no more, he who came before all others, and has always been." - Paarthurnax

4. Igniting every star in the universe is not a 2-C or low 2-C feat. At all.

Regarding the Jills, them appearing in the game might have been scrapped, but the fact is that they are mentioned and was stated in MK's other lore. And the Jills are low 2-C. If you want to change it, make a CRT.

5. Again, it's a gameplay mechanic. It's a creative decision made by the developers to make the game more interesting. There is really nothing in the lore that indicate daedric artifacts can't have more than two enchantments.

6. Alduin is a literal End of Time and Dragonrend made him punchable and killable. And the Dovahkiin can't mantle anyone, why would you bring this up?

7. If your theory is true, then why didn't the dragons that Miraak control just snap out of Bend Will shout the moment they leave Apocrypha? Making assumptions like how Miraak find a knowledge to make Bend Will power unlimited is not an argument.

8. Daedric artifacts power are based on how much power a daedric prince can exert in said realm. In Nirn, since the Daedric Princes are limited by the seal of Dragonfire, they can't exert as much power there and thus, their daedric artifacts are also weakened.

9. This is just a complete leap in logic. So daedric artifacts become completely useless just because Molag Bal failed to gain control over a dragon in mind, body and soul, when he wasn't even trying to kill said dragon? We don't even know what weapon, power or method he uses. Saying that somehow daedric artifacts are now useless is quite a leap in logic


Again, Alduin is a literal End of Time and Dragonrend made him killable and punchable, breaking the Kalpic Cycle in the process, a cycle of the end time and it's rebirth. This is supported by Paarthunax's conversation above and is even stated in the Dovahkiin profile (read the summary)

Morgoth really have no way to kill the Dovahkiin and Dovahkiin can just soul trap him since Morgoth have no way to get past his conceptual manipulation resistance, while having zero resistance to soul manipulation.

 

[Saga89]

Alduin dies permanently as it's the reason why c0da even happens.

And is it to be considered canon? Also, as I understand the events of C0DA happens so far in the future we don't really know what else happened to determine that fate. Maybe a new shezarrine went mad like Pelinar Whitestrake and contributed to shatter time. But I really need to read C0DA before continuing this digression.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

C0DA is canon. It's literally referenced in Online.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

In C0DA. The Prisoner, Vivec and Lorkhan create a new Amanranth.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

1. Bend Will is a shout that is consisted of three words of power. It has shown an ability to bend dragons, when a Daedric Prince that specialise in mind manipulation can't even bend a dovah to his will.

2. Can you give me the link?

3. You seem to still under the impression that Thu'um is a form of information manipulation that manipulate things at conceptual level. I will repeat myself, it's a conceptual manipulation.

4. i'm asking how applicable is it in combat. His type 3 immortality can be bypassed by Soul Tear, and now i'm asking you how long does it take for Morgoth to reincarnate or resurrect himself. Also, give me the source for it.

5. Again, Thu'um is a conceptual manipulation. It manipulate the inner tones that shape all of reality. This include concepts.

6. See above.

7. And i'm not saying they are the same. The fact is that Ring of Namira and Spellbreaker have shown an ability to deflect and block conceptual attacks. They are NOT a Tonal Magic exclusive artifacts.

8. Actually, it can be a power. Mirio from BnH have intangibility, and it's an ability that he activate. I'm asking you whether he start in that state, is it a passive state of being, or can he deactivate and activate it and how likely will he use it in combat.

Also, Mehrunes' Razor have shown an ability to warp reality. So if we assume that the Dovahkiin can also warp reality like Mankar Camoran did, then this is completely irrelevant

9. Already answered this in my response to Saga.

Got to go.

 

[Saga89]

C0DA is canon. It's literally referenced in Online.

Gonna need sources for those statements, either footage from the game or written transcription of whatever is being "quoted". Release date too for both the novel and whatever game patch introduced said "quotes". Trying to maintain a semblance of scientific method for my reasoning. If someone who had actually read C0DA would enter the discussion I would gladly hear what he has to say about it (especially what would it change about my understanding about the nature of "personified concepts") because I don't know when I would be able to read it.

BTW it now occurs to me I've overlooked the most similar figure to Morgoth in TES cosmology, Lorkhan. He may have been killed, dismembered and cast out of reality (and even shot with the aforementioned Auri'El bow) but still continues to alter it when it should have no right to do so.

 

[Paul_Frank]

C0da is referenced

a note

In eso

And it's a slight reference it doesn't confirm that the whole thing with the numidium happens

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Snip

1) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Matthew_Schroeder/The_Elder_Scrolls:_Consistency_%26_Cano. I've read C0DA. If you want more knowledgable members get Matt or Ultima. In Lesson 37 of the 36 Lesson of Vivec. It's specifically Vivec's prespective of C0DA. CODA is also referenced. There are a bunch of references to CODA in the blog.

• "Go here: world without wheel, charting zero deaths, and echoes singing," Seht said, until all of it was done, and in the center was anything whatever.

The first letter of each word in the quote, along with the "zero", is www.c0da.es, the C0DA website.
2) Why does that mean anything?

 

[Saga89]

I have to finish my night shift and, hopefully, after that I'll go to sleep. Lets say I will answer again in 14 or 15 hours. Somehow I didn't see Waria posts while replying to the others, I will also take those into consideration and recap the situation as I understand it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

C0da is referenced
a note

In eso

And it's a slight reference it doesn't confirm that the whole thing with the numidium happens

You do realize that the Numidium destroying Time is also referenced in Sermon 37, and so is Landfall and him destroying Akatosh, right?

 

[Saga89]

Ok, I've tried to read c0da and I am now very confused. One one side, an ending set in stone seems to me a punch in the face to the the prisoner metaphisics principle of "being free of deterministic fate" since I could have killed Vivec in Morrowind. On the other hand, Vivec could have been dead but revived himself with CHIM. But if we consider the Sermons and c0da as reliable, Vivec learned CHIM from Molag Bal, who seemed to deem that power not particularly noteworthy (anything Molag Bal gained in exchange from the information was 1 hour of sex). If a Daedric Prince is shown to know CHIM, and also shown to take it for granted, would there be any logical reason to exclude Aedric creatures like Akatosh, and so Alduin, from knowing it? Shouldn't Aedra and Daedra being somewhat equal in knowledge? Note that Vivec, even if he really had CHIM, could still be defeated in-game, very much like Alduin (possibly CHIM can only be used while outside Mundus or while on Aeterius?).

Incidentally, both CHIM and the "prisoner metaphisic" both seems to me a possible lore explanation to the "save game" in-game mechanic: with "save game" you are both free of any deterministic course of action (as you can have save files where you persued polar opposite actions), and are free to leave the current state of "the game" to try alter the events in a course more favorable to you. In a sense, i feel the "prisoner metaphisic" is made somehow redundant by CHIM, but that's just a digression.


My brain hurts.


EmperorRorepme wrote

2) Why does that mean anything?

In case of eventual retcons, it would help determine what and how something got retconned. In the best case scenario (to prove its canonicity) it may have been built into the game, even in some non-interactive/non-playable form, before the publication of C0DA


i'm asking you how long does it take for Morgoth to reincarnate or resurrect himself. Also, give me the source for it.


I don't think there is anything directly referring to Morgoth, but Sauron was able to istantly restore his fana after being bested by Huan and again after being destroyed in the Dawnfall of Numenor.

"So, it is done. Alduin dilon ( (Alduin's dead)). The Eldest is no more, he who came before all others, and has always been." - Paarthurnax


And that's someone speaking who has his own agenda: to rule over the lesser dragons. I don't find Paarthurnax particularly reliable on the subject. Arngeir and Esbern, both of whom have nothing to gain from lying, at least admitted Alduin's return is a possibility.

Even if Paarthurnax wasn't really lying, there is also the possibility that he is just making an assumption based on what he knows but this assumption may be true or false' since it's based on incomplete knowledge', after all he wasn't even an eyewitness and as far as I recall dragons are not stated to have any means to magically know when one of their own dies. Arngeir first reaction was with worlds very similar to those of Paarthurnax... until the Dovahking proceded to explain he hasn't absorbed Alduin's soul, at which point he admit Alduin may not have been totally destroyed. And at least this exchange does not reek of propaganda:

Dragonborn: "Is Alduin really dead? I didn't absorb his soul when he died."

Arngeir : "Perhaps. Perhaps not. Dragons are not like normal mortal creature and Alduin is unique even among dragonkind, He may be permitted to return at the end of time to fulfill his destiny as the Wolrd-Eater."

If studying history had taught me anything is that you cannot trust anything said, written or proclamed by someone in a position of power: he will always speak and act to uphold the legitimization of his power. By Paarthurnax's own ammission, he now need to enforce his autority over the other dovah.


5. Again, it's a gameplay mechanic. It's a creative decision made by the developers to make the game more interesting. There is really nothing in the lore that indicate daedric artifacts can't have more than two enchantments.

[...]

7. If your theory is true, then why didn't the dragons that Miraak control just snap out of Bend Will shout the moment they leave Apocrypha? Making assumptions like how Miraak find a knowledge to make Bend Will power unlimited is not an argument.

By the same virtue that kept Miraak alive without resorting to undeath? But that's not the point of my reasoning, what I was trying to argue is that we must abide to the game mechanics when in absence of clear and reliable informations, should any other informations directly contraddict the mechanics. After all, wouldn't be it rather convenient to invoke "prisoner metaphisic" to explain some game mechanics while at the same time claiming game mechanics are to be disregarded?


9. This is just a complete leap in logic. So daedric artifacts become completely useless just because Molag Bal failed to gain control over a dragon in mind, body and soul, when he wasn't even trying to kill said dragon? We don't even know what weapon, power or method he uses. Saying that somehow daedric artifacts are now useless is quite a leap in logic

Again, that's not my point. What I am saying is: while daedric artifact and simila are certainly useful to destroy the physical manifestation of daedric and aedric beings, nothing attests their ability to permanently destroy them. The closest thing we ever had to a "divine" being unequivocally dying by the sword in TES is Umaril, who wasn't even a real god but some sort of demigod (and the same may also be argued about Alduin, after all Alduin himself never claimed to be an avatar or an aspect of Akatosh but "only" his first creation; but we are not following this path of reasoning now).


Dovahkiin can just soul trap him since Morgoth have no way to get past his conceptual manipulation resistance, while having zero resistance to soul manipulation.

This I still don't understand: common human and animals on TES games, excluding TESO, can resist Soul Trap. Does anyone in that that universe possess Soul Manipulation Resistence?

4. Azura's Star has been described as being infinite in size and is and extension of a low 1-C being.
Being an extention of a low 1-C being didn't protect the Star from being corrupted by Malyn Varen, I imagine Morgoth, still stationing very high above such a puny mortal mage, could do much worse to the Star.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Vivec is specifically designed to not be a trustworthy narrator

His words are supposed to be questioned

And c0da being referenced in sermon 37 out of 36

which was stolen before it was written(an excuse for adding this in as an easteregg)

And has the literal link to the website aka the most meta easter egg possible

And doesn't even contain that many events from c0da specifically referencing a small portion

Was a nod to c0da and Kirkbride's fans and does not confirm that c0da is canon to tes

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Even if Paarthurnax wasn't really lying, there is also the possibility that he is just making an assumption based on what he knows but this assumption may be true or false' since it's based on incomplete knowledge', after all he wasn't even an eyewitness and as far as I recall dragons are not stated to have any means to magically know when one of their own dies. Arngeir first reaction was with worlds very similar to those of Paarthurnax... until the Dovahking proceded to explain he hasn't absorbed Alduin's soul, at which point he admit Alduin may not have been totally destroyed. And at least this excenge does not reek of propaganda

Paarthurnax has literally 0 reasons to lie to the Dovahkiin, and it is not based on incomplete information either. The Dragons are beings intrinsically connected to the flow of time itself, to the point all of them felt the effects of the Elder Scroll sending Alduin to the future and sundering Time itself. Alduin's death by itself had an effect on the flow of time, as it reverberated throughout all of Time, Past and Future, so I am fairly sure he wasn't mistaken nor making baseless assumptions when he said Alduin was dead forever.

He isn't the only one saying Alduin is dead either, the other Dragons also imply he has been slain for good, and they share the same nature as Paarthurnax, that of beings connected to the flow of time itself, and as far as we are concerned they have no reasons to lie either.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Vivec is specifically designed to not be a trustworthy narrator
His words are supposed to be questioned

And c0da being referenced in sermon 37 out of 36

which was stolen before it was written(an excuse for adding this in as an easteregg)

And has the literal link to the website aka the most meta easter egg possible

And doesn't even contain that many events from c0da specifically referencing a small portion

Was a nod to c0da and Kirkbride's fans and does not confirm that c0da is canon to tes

Ah, so the old "lol Vivec is a liar" argument, how surprising.

Also, Sermon 37 references:

• Landfall

• The Memory

• The Dunmeri Society in Masser

• The Numidium destroying Akatosh, and the latter's state as the Worm

• Jubal's monologue, which is literally recounted by Vivec.

• Amaranth as a straight up namedrop.

So, it listing "a small part" of C0DA's events is irrelevant. It has all the notable portions of the story, and most of what we currently use on our profiles is referenced by it.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well Sotha Sil did say "don't trust the words of a poet".

 

[Waria_Kambang]

This is not true. Vivec literally used CHIM against Azura while they are on Mundus. This is not exactly a subject i particuraly knowledgable about, so you better ask Ultima or read Matthew's blog.

Paarthunax's intention was to teach the Way of the Voice to other dragons. He may have to rule other dragons to achieve that, but his core intention is good. He is not someone who would lie based on his personality. Why would Paarthunax, who already conquered his dominating nature as a dragon all of the sudden wants to rule dragons again? And dragons are capable of sensing Alduin's demise. Take for example Durnehviir. If you defeat Alduin before meeting him, he will say that he knows about Alduin's demise.

And it's true that in TES world, there are a lot of contradictory accounts, but just like Carlovac Townway said, the truth is there if you look for it.

About the immortality argument, this could be quite a problem, but this is assuming that Dragonrend won't null his immortality. Soul Tear also can sill circumvent this.

I'm not saying that we should disregard game mechanic, but it should have lore to explain said game mechanic, character creation menu have Prisoner metaphysics to explain it, while daedric artifacts having different enchantments have never been explained in lore. After all, daedric artifacts are some of the most well known artifacts in TES, it's weird that not a single one of historian talk about them changing enchantments. And Dovahkiin also still have Savior's Hide if the ring is unuseable.

There is an instance where a god die, and that is when we defeat Alduin Alduin is the Nordic God of Destruction and Creation. He is a major shard of Aka (not Akatosh)

Soul trap enchantments =/= soul trap from Soul Tear shout. Their magnitude are not even at the same class. And i don't recall any common humans or animals that resist soul trap without them being important for quests in Skyrim.

And yet Azura still have full control over said star. She was able to get you inside of it, prevent Marilyn's soul from escaping the star, and taking you out of it. The star may can be corrupted by Morgoth, but he will have a harder time taking full control of it AND getting out of it.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

@Sega

Knowing about CHIM doesn't mean one can achieve it. That's made very clear in TES.

 

[Saga89]

Paarthurnax has literally 0 reasons to lie to the Dovahkiin, and it is not based on incomplete information either. The Dragons are beings intrinsically connected to the flow of time itself, to the point all of them felt the effects of the Elder Scroll sending Alduin to the future and sundering Time itself. Alduin's death by itself had an effect on the flow of time, as it reverberated throughout all of Time, Past and Future, so I am fairly sure he wasn't mistaken nor making baseless assumptions when he said Alduin was dead forever.

Right after you kill Aldruin he admits he will search to dominate the other dovah: "Many of the dovahhe are now scattered across Keizaal. Without Alduin's lordship they may yet bow to the vahzen... the rightness of my thu'um"

And, during the quest for the Blades: "We were made to dominate. the will to power is in our blood, [...] It is always wise to mistrust a dovah."

He isn't the only one saying Alduin is dead either, the other Dragons also imply he has been slain for good, and they share the same nature as Paarthurnax, that of beings connected to the flow of time itself, and as far as we are concerned they have no reasons to lie either.

See above. As I see it, it is more than plausible they did it out of fear/respect for out white friend.

Take for example Durnehviir. If you defeat Alduin before meeting him, he will say that he knows about Alduin's demise.

Durnehviir may well have known of Alduin's defeat by any soul ended up in the Soul Cairn that knew it.

And yet Azura still have full control over said star. She was able to get you inside of it, prevent Marilyn's soul from escaping the star, and taking you out of it. The star may can be corrupted by Morgoth, but he will have a harder time taking full control of it AND getting out of it.

Again, if Malyn was still able to manipulate the Star and play Azura to reach his ends, I imagine someone with limited omniscence and intelligent enough to create 7-A and 6-B may well be able to influence the Star even more. You may say that the breaching of the Door of Night at guarded with the power of other 14 low 2-C Valar and their minions (the eventual Dagor Dagorath) is not an impressive feat, but the fact that Malyn played Azura (still achieved some sort of immortality) really doesn't speak highly of the Star itself.

Soul trap enchantments =/= soul trap from Soul Tear shout. Their magnitude are not even at the same class. And i don't recall any common humans or animals that resist soul trap without them being important for quests in Skyrim.

Soul Tear doesn't work on Skyrim dragons and not even Alduin himself is listed as possessing Resistance to Soul Manipulation, why should it work on Morgoth? The same argument I made for daedric artifacts may very well be valid for this shout: it may utterly destroy Morgoth's fana and fana only. On the other hand, Morgoth as an ealar doesn't have any fea, aka he doesn't have any soul (which is a thing only for humans, elves, dwarves, orcs and maybe dragons), so the shout may be totally uneffective on him.

@Sega

This is funny because here where I am from "sega" is what you call someone really ignorant (or weak)


I still believe C0DA may be the best source to debunk my argument: is there to be found any reference to the fate of Alduin? I may have missed it

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Again, Paarthunax intention was to bring dragons to the Way of the Voice. The Way of the Voice is a pacifist philosophy. He might have to rule other dragons to reach his goal, but in the end, his intention is good. He is not some sort of evil power hungry mastermind. This is made very clear in Skyrim and there is literally no evidence to prove otherwise. The only thing that maybe can count as an evidence is the quote that you post about dragons' dominating nature, but Paarthunax in the Blade quest stated that he already overcome that same nature. And assuming that other dragons were afraid of Paarthunax is also false. Odahviing stated that he doubt much dragons will bow to Paarthunax's voice and philosohphy. This by itself already prove that Paarthunax is not exactly the most feared dragon.

Doubt that Durnehviir knows it from other souls. Before we fight him, Durnehviir is not even findable and his sole intention is to protect Valerica. It also doesn't help that most dragons find humans to be nothing more than a food, so a conversation is a no-go. It is far more plausible to believe that he feels it, rather than hearing it from someone.

In Alduin's profile, it's stated that Alduin's death revebrate across all of time, which is how the dragons know that Alduin is dead since they are connected to the flow of time. This is proven by how dragons can feel Alduin's defeat when he was send to the future (which affect time itself).

So we have Paarthunax and a bunch of other dragons that support the fact that Alduin died, versus a Greybeard monk who even admit that he doesn't know whether Alduin is dead or not.

So about the ring, it seems you didn't respond to me, so does this mean you agree with me?

Azura was never played by Melryn. If she really wants to she can just send her aspect and kill Merlyn inside of her own star. Much like how a weakened Barbas send his aspect that not even the End-game Dovahkiin can hurt. The only things that Merlyn do to said Star is just manipulating it so that it can store black soul (human soul). He never show any ability to manipulate said star or the realm inside of it in any greater degree. Heck, he can't even expel our soul went we came to kill him. Morgoth might be able to corrupt said star if his soul is trapped inside of it, but to override Azura's control over that star is just going to take a lot more effort.

But Alduin do have soul resistance though (check his page again). And dragons have been shown to have an amazing level of soul resistance. This is shown by one of the dragon surviving Molag Bal's soul and mental torture.

Another artifacts that worth a mention is Staff of Magnus. Which is able to drain a low 1-C power source in seconds. So unless i'm missing something, then Morgoth is going to get power drained.

 

[Saga89]

Again, Paarthunax intention was to bring dragons to the Way of the Voice. The Way of the Voice is a pacifist philosophy. He might have to rule other dragons to reach his goal, but in the end, his intention is good. He is not some sort of evil power hungry mastermind. This is made very clear in Skyrim and there is literally no evidence to prove otherwise. The only thing that maybe can count as an evidence is the quote that you post about dragons' dominating nature, but Paarthunax in the Blade quest stated that he already overcome that same nature. And assuming that other dragons were afraid of Paarthunax is also false. Odahviing stated that he doubt much dragons will bow to Paarthunax's voice and philosohphy. This by itself already prove that Paarthunax is not exactly the most feared dragon.

So we have Paarthunax and a bunch of other dragons that support the fact that Alduin died, versus a Greybeard monk who even admit that he doesn't know whether Alduin is dead or not.

That's prospective. Esbern too subscribe to the same idea as Arngeir, that makes two clearly uninstered characters agree on the subject. Coincidentally, Esbern also subscribes to the idea that Paarthurnax is not to be trusted while Arngeir is of the opposite, but they came to the same conclusion that Alduin will probably return. Durnehviir is shown to be able to summon souls when you fight him. And bored dragons may very well interact with humans: I don't remember his name but somewhere was mentioned a dragon who chose to help the empire in its early stages. About the ring I will repeat my opinion: that we should abide to the game mechanics when in absence of clear and reliable informations, should any other informations directly contraddict the mechanics. Neither the ring, nor the hide give damage reflection. Maybe both Hircine and Namira were weaker at the time, maybe they altered the items, maybe daedric artifacts work differently for each person wearing them: all we know is that they worked in one precise way for the dragonborn and we should keep them that way.

Azura was never played by Melryn. If she really wants to she can just send her aspect and kill Merlyn inside of her own star. Much like how a weakened Barbas send his aspect that not even the End-game Dovahkiin can hurt. The only things that Merlyn do to said Star is just manipulating it so that it can store black soul (human soul). He never show any ability to manipulate said star or the realm inside of it in any greater degree. Heck, he can't even expel our soul went we came to kill him. Morgoth might be able to corrupt said star if his soul is trapped inside of it, but to override Azura's control over that star is just going to take a lot more effort.

I think the daedric princes are very good at playing the part of being omnipotent but they actually have limitations that ingenious beings can exploit. And we have some examples: -Instead of summoning a fiery avatar of retribution, like you suggested she could, Azura still resolved to use external help to fix her problems in a realm that should be her extension, -Hermaeus Mora fancied himself omniscent and yet needed external help to learn the secrets of the skaal, -Mehrunes Dagon (and all the daedric princes in general) advertise himself as superior to the aedra but still got stomped by Akatosh-Martin.

But Alduin do have soul resistance though (check his page again). And dragons have been shown to have an amazing level of soul resistance. This is shown by one of the dragon surviving Molag Bal's soul and mental torture.

My bad, my other points seems to still stand tho.


The Staff of Magnus? Well... That may indeed be a problem to Morgoth. I believe it may actually work: if in character, Morgoth may actually even surrender the instant it feels its power threatened. Therefore this now needs to be broken down and analyzed: how fast is the dragonborn? Without any magic, Morgoth is strong enough to destroy the universe (he do this, in fact, twice), and is fast enough to do so practically istantly. As far as I know the dragonborn still need air both to breath and use his shouts. I presume the immeasurable speed of the dragonborn is given because of his Slow Time Shout, because we have no other feat above massively supersonic: both Dovahkiin and Miraak profiles redirect to Alduin profile, but being unbound by linear time does not automatically grants dragons sperluminal speed: Numinex and Odahviing were both trapped by a yoke that's clearly not falling at superluminal speed and the blades succesfully hunted some dragons without being superluminal entities; so by this logic the Dovahkiin would have to use his shout to slow/stop time and drain Morgoth. By the time he shouts, he's also very dead.

But lets admit the Dovahkiin is fast enough to shout and slow time: how much time does the Dovahkiin need to drain Morgoth to the point he is so weak not to be able to put up universal+ stunts? Can he do so within a single use of the Slow Time shout?

Maybe MasterOfArda has some other idea on the drain topic? Would slowing time work on Morgoth? Unlike dragons he is showed actually acting and reacting in a dimension without time. If the Staff really works, the dragonborn should be playing Der Königgrätzer Marsch while stomping anyone and everyone. [[1]]

 

[Waria_Kambang]

"That's prospective. Esbern too subscribe to the same idea as Arngeir, that makes two clearly uninstered characters agree on the subject. Coincidentally, Esbern also subscribes to the idea that Paarthurnax is not to be trusted while Arngeir is of the opposite, but they came to the same conclusion that Alduin will probably return."

Arngeir is a Greybeard monk whose knowledge about dragons and Alduin pale to Paarthunax's and he was not even sure about his hypothesis. Esbern is an old man who comes from an organization that specifically hate dragons so his point of view is very much biased. And again, his knowledge about Alduin is still pale in comparison against Paarthunax's.

Meanwhile Paarthunax was Alduin's right hand dragon and have a much more better understanding about Alduin. He is far more wise, more attuned to the flow of time (which Alduin is, since he is a literal End of Time), and have other dragons to support his claim. And again, dragons have been shown to be aware when something happen to time and Alduin. This is proven when Paarthunax stated that dragons were able to feel Alduin's defeat at the hands of the ancient nords. So them feeling Alduin's death is not far fetched and is actually more rational to believe.

So again, we have two people who have lesser knowledge about Alduin in general, only have unsupported claims, one of them is not even sure about his own hypothesis and another one is possibly biased, versus a bunch of dragons who have shown an ability to sense Alduin's defeat and have a far more greater understanding about Alduin than those two people.


"Durnehviir is shown to be able to summon souls when you fight him. And bored dragons may very well interact with humans: I don't remember his name but somewhere was mentioned a dragon who chose to help the empire in its early stages."

An exception is just an exception. The fact is that dragons sees humans as nothing more than foods and servants. Otherwise, we won't have a bunch of dragons oppressing and kiling humans during the Merethic Era. All of Durnehviir's summoned souls are skeletons that have no capability to speak or think and we don't even know whether these same skeletons know about Alduin's death or not.


"About the ring I will repeat my opinion: that we should abide to the game mechanics when in absence of clear and reliable informations, should any other informations directly contraddict the mechanics. Neither the ring, nor the hide give damage reflection. Maybe both Hircine and Namira were weaker at the time, maybe they altered the items, maybe daedric artifacts work differently for each person wearing them: all we know is that they worked in one precise way for the dragonborn and we should keep them that way."

Very well, but the reason why i bring up Savior's Hide is because of the fact that it grant magical resistance. This include Tonal Magic, which is a form conceptual manipulation.


"I think the daedric princes are very good at playing the part of being omnipotent but they actually have limitations that ingenious beings can exploit. And we have some examples: -Instead of summoning a fiery avatar of retribution, like you suggested she could, Azura still resolved to use external help to fix her problems in a realm that should be her extension, -Hermaeus Mora fancied himself omniscent and yet needed external help to learn the secrets of the skaal, -Mehrunes Dagon (and all the daedric princes in general) advertise himself as superior to the aedra but still got stomped by Akatosh-Martin."

Hermaeus Mora, as far as i'm aware, never boast about being omniscient, otherwise he wouldn't so openly admit that he doesn't know the Skall's secret. Mehrunes Dagon is a Daedric Prince who tried to destroy Nirn multiple times and being boastful is his second nature.

Azura has never shown any of these charateristics. At all. Their personality is very much different. We also already got proof that Daedric Princes can still easily summon their aspect that endgame Dovahkin can't kill even if they are weakened (Barnas). And Barbas was weaker than Azura since he was separated from Clavicus Vile and thus only have half of his power. So yeah.


"The Staff of Magnus? Well... That may indeed be a problem to Morgoth. I believe it may actually work: if in character, Morgoth may actually even surrender the instant it feels its power threatened. Therefore this now needs to be broken down and analyzed: how fast is the dragonborn? Without any magic, Morgoth is strong enough to destroy the universe (he do this, in fact, twice), and is fast enough to do so practically istantly. As far as I know the dragonborn still need air both to breath and use his shouts. I presume the immeasurable speed of the dragonborn is given because of his Slow Time Shout, because we have no other feat above massively supersonic: both Dovahkiin and Miraak profiles redirect to Alduin profile, but being unbound by linear time does not automatically grants dragons sperluminal speed: Numinex and Odahviing were both trapped by a yoke that's clearly not falling at superluminal speed and the blades succesfully hunted some dragons without being superluminal entities; so by this logic the Dovahkiin would have to use his shout to slow/stop time and drain Morgoth. By the time he shouts, he's also very dead."

First of all, Numinex doesn't have immeasurable speed nor can he move outside of time.

Second of all, being unbound by the concept of linear time and moving while being outside of it is an immeasurable speed feat as noted by this wiki speed page.

"Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)"


"But lets admit the Dovahkiin is fast enough to shout and slow time: how much time does the Dovahkiin need to drain Morgoth to the point he is so weak not to be able to put up universal+ stunts? Can he do so within a single use of the Slow Time shout?"

The Staff of Magnus was able to drain a low 1-C artifact in a couple of seconds. Given the enormous difference in power between low 1-C and low 2-C, it probably would drain Morgoth's power as soon as it touches him.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I actually love what this thread turned into. I wish more vs debates where like this.

 

[Saga89]

So they both have Immeasurable speed only if they fight outside linear time?

You know what? If this is still going I change my vote to inconclusive as we don't know where the fight is going to take place. If outside linear time, the Dovahkiin may significantly weaken Morgoth via Staff of Magnus... but Morgoth is shown at the Dagor Dagorath as having totally restored his power thanks to his temporary residence whithin the void outside space-time that is the Timeless Hall. Its a mexican standoff.

Regarding the Eye of Magnus, I don't think it was totally drained: as a power source it probably includes some (if not many) fail-safes, and the Psijic Order still takes it away, showing they believe it still has power. Also, it takes more than a few seconds to drain the archmage enemies, that would also support my theory about said 1-C power source not being entirely drained and still leaves the question on how long the Staff would take to significantly weaken Morgoth in case the fight take place inside lenear time. To use a terminology ala Ennio Morricone, it's still a triello.

And yes, I agree with the thing about magic resistance, my objection was about magic reflection as my opinion was, and still is, that both will found each other significally hard to affect with their respective magic.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

They have immeasurable regardless of where they fight.

 

[Saga89]

They have immeasurable regardless of where they fight.

Then we have Samurai Jack season 6: Dovahkiin running after Morgoth to drain him and Morgoth trying one weird trick after another. Still inconclusive.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Why exactly would Morgoth run away?

 

[Saga89]

because it would be in-character for him to do so the moment he felt endangered: he tried to flee and hide (and then plea) before Eonwe chopped off his hands and feet.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Good luck running away from attacks with High 1-B range.

 

[Saga89]

Have the Staff of Magnus 1-B range? We ended up talking about the Staff of Magnus because we couldn't reach agreement on something else being able to kill Morgoth once and for all.