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The Dovahkiin vs Morgoth

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The Dovahkiin being a master of Alteration may very well be a non-factor: he still need to be happening to know a spell to survive outer space or a vacuum, which to my knowledge he doesn't know. In order to be able to craft such a spell he still needs: 1) he needs time and the fight doesn't allow preparation, learning a spell is described as painstakingly long and difficult, crafting a new spell from scratches should be considerally more difficult; 2) he needs knowledge about the conditions he would face in order to know what he does have to alter, and to my knowledge the Dovahkiin is not a natural science physicist. But really, point 1 should be enough unless Prisoner Metaphysic doesn't gift him preparation time too.

Frankly, surviving in a plane of Oblivion isn't proof of incredible durability, even some Bruma guards menaged that . And there is nothing pointing out any realm within Aetherius - like Sovngarde or the Mantellan Crux - should be otherwise. The ban on entering Sovngarde is most likely just that: a ban upon the portal excluding most people from Shor's private show.


Waria Kambang said:
I can't say anything about your claim because i don't know enough about LotR, but in fiction, spirits had shown an ability to talk even without physical body. Can you give me the text that describe Morgoth's act of destroying the universe?
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I'd say there is a marked difference between communicating, most times possibly to do so in a non threatening or frightening manner, and ascribe to incorporeal entities the workings of a material body. Also, like MasterOfArda have already noted before, the whole Silmarillion is written from the point of view of the elves and they have limited understanding of this... but still there is enough proof Melkor corrupted the Ainulindale with just by thinking about changing it.

Silmarillion said:
But now Il├║vatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Il├║vatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Il├║vatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Il├║vatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.

Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Il├║vatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.
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@Ogbunabali: Ghosts? Vampires? Dragonpriests? Durnehviir? Any undead still able to cast spells and use the Thu'um? Even the common draugs laugh at you when you got staggered, a behaviour denoting some form of intelligence.
 
Gameplay spells != literally all the spells the Dovahkiin knows. By virtue of being Immeasurable speed he has enough time to transmute his body to whatever he needs to.

Ok? That still isn't a reason on why it wouldn't work on Morgoth.
 
First of all, Undead do have a soul as the school of necromancy can bind the soul of the dead to the body that the necromancer have prepared. The second one is also not true, since it's only speculation without proof. So we know that both of these are not the reason. Morgoth may have mental resistance, but you need to prove that it's enough to resist Bend Will.

Some Undead have mind of their own and and ability to reason with people, but these same undeads (such as vampire) have also been affected by illusion spell (which is highly common) and you don't need to be a master illusionist to do it. By scalling Bend Will shout is far more powerful than this illusion spell. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Incident_in_Necrom


And assuming that alteration spell wouldn't work (which is highly unlikely) the Dovahkiin can just transport both himself and Morgoth to Apocrypha using the Black Books so that they can fight there. Or he can just use Become Ethereal and then transport both himself and Morgoth.
 
Dagon wasn't a Daedric Prince when Alduin fought him, this has been explained like 5 times now on this site. Also Tsun behind Shor's right hand man doesn't matter especially since Tsun tells you he wasn't trying at all and gives up after literally a single hit into the "fight".
 
I have discussed Bend Will extensively, and I stand by my previous posts. The Dovahkiin has never shown mind hax strong enough to affect a nearly 2-C entity. Most of his equipment has also been discussed.

Also, does the Dovahkiin have a defense to Absorption?
 
Well first of all him being 2-C doesn't matter. Second Bend Will is conceptual and Morgoth has no resistance to mindhax. Bend Will works easily.
 
As Saga89 pointed out, he does have resistence to mindhax. Whether this is enough is debatable, but saying he has no defense is exaggeration. Secondly, I refer to my old post:

Manipulating a tiny shard of time is not the same as manipulating a being who is above all of Time, Space, Light, Darkness, Matter, Energy, Life, Death, etc. Melkor is to dragons as Morgoth is to humans. Dragons have tiny 4-D power. Morgoth has universal 4-D power. Just because you can control a human (A tiny 3-D entity), doesn't mean you can mind control Morgoth (A massive 3-D entity). Same thing with Melkor. Just because you can control a Dragon (A tiny 4-D entity), doesn't mean you can mind control Melkor (A massive 4-D entity).
Thirdly, Bend Will is not conceptual. If it was, the Dovahkiin would have it listed.
 
He literally doesn't have any resistance to mindhax. Second if he was above all those things he would be 1-A and he's not so he's not above them. Second Dragons are 4D in mind and soul the "tiny" thing is pure headcanon and doesn't even exist. Bend Will works. And it is conceptual all of Elder Scrolls pages need a lot more work.
 
Possessing the all of those powers still doesn't give him resistance to mindax. And none of them mean that he transcends Space and Time, because you know, that would mean that he was literally 1-A that's the requirement for it. Since he's not, none of what you linked mean that Bend Will doesn't work.
 
Gandalf is an Ainur. Morgoth poseses the powers of all Ainur. Gandalf posses mind resistence. Therefore, Morgoth posses mind resistence.
 
Doubtful, but how powerful is it? Bend Will is an extremely powerful mindhax, I doubt anything in LotR comes close.
 
I don't. However, the point I am making is that Morgoth at least has some resistence to mindhax. I stand by my previous post that Bend WIll can only affect low-level 4-D entities, nothing on Morgoth's level.
 
Ok "low-level 4D entities" isn't a thing. You either are 4D or you're not. Not to mention Bend Will works on a conceptual level and can affect abstracts.
 
Ok "low-level 4D entities" isn't a thing.
Sure it is. There is High 3-A 4-D:
High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.
Low 2-C 4-D:

("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline.
2-C 4-D:

Low Multiverse level: Characters who can destroy and/or create up to 1000 universal space-time continuums. The power difference between Low 2-C and 2-C characters is not possible to exactly quantify, given that the latter category has to breach the distance between universes along a 5-dimensional axis.
2-B 4-D:

Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to any higher finite number of universal 4-dimensional space-time continuums.
And 2-A 4-D:

Multiverse level+: Characters who can destroy and/or create a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. Take note that the universes are technically lined up along a 5-dimensional axis, but that their geometrical size still amounts to 0 within this scale.
And just like with other tiers, there are stronger and weaker entities in said tiers.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Ok "low-level 4D entities" isn't a thing. You either are 4D or you're not. Not to mention Bend Will works on a conceptual level and can affect abstracts.
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You hold a basic misunderstanding of Tier 2. Tier 2 may deal with the destruction of third dimensional realities, but all multiverses all have 4-D space that seperates them.

This is true for all multiverse theories. The High 3-A and Low 2-C, 4-D is often short hand for the destruction of either all of space-time or having a 4-D force that is 'beyond' 3-D infinity or 3-D space. The only tier that can be 3-D is High 3-A But both Morgoth and Dohvahkin are 4-D. I may think Dohvahkin wins, but to assume neither or only one is 4-D is fallacious.
 
Ok no. Not even close.


  • High 3-A is characters who possess infinte 3D or some 4D power, not they they themselves are "part" 4D because that's not a thing.
"Characters 'who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power'. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP."

  • Low 2-C is characters who possess the power to destroy a 4D structure.
"("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline."

  • 2-C is the same thing but about 1001 or more.
  • 2-B is the same but above 1001.
  • 2-A is the same but infinte.

Take note that none of these actually require you to be 4D. You can be a 3D character with 4D power, hell Molecule Ma is 3D with 1-A power.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Snip
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Even though what you clearly wrote said 4-D then fine, lemme indulge. If you were truly right, then why is High 2-A 5D on this wiki? Why isnt it 4-D? Because multiple universal destruction is 4-D. Or the destruction of space-time is also 4-D. Depends on the fiction.
 
I think you both misunderstand. Of course you are either 4-D or not. But there are different degrees of 4-D power, just as there are diffrent degrees of 3-D power. I am saying Morgoth has more 4-D power.
 
MasterOfArda said:
I think you both misunderstand. Of course you are either 4-D or not. But there are different degrees of 4-D power, just as there are diffrent degrees of 3-D power. I am saying Morgoth has more 4-D power.
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I never claimed that they werent other degress of 4-D. I am just stated how 4-D works in a scientific scale. On how it works for this wiki and how it works in our world. As for the Morgoth thing. No comment?
 
SinsofMan said:
snip
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No because according to our wiki's standards at the moment if you are an actual 4D creature you atomatically get 2-A, and if you are 5D you atomatically get High 2-A.

MasterOfArda said:
snip
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Look dude yeah I'm 3D you're 3D are the same in punching strenght? No. But if my hax can affect 4D creatures and you don't resist mindhax, guess what you're gonna get mindhaxed. It's really not that hard to understand.
 
@Ogbunabali. No you dont? Even the AP and tiering you gave disagreed with you. You can be 4-D and Low 2-C. You have to be infinite multiversal to be 2-A. Plain and simple. Ask staff, they will agree that is what 2-A is. Not being 4-D. Then again, I dont care about this matchup.

/lurks and unfollow away.
 
No you literally can't Low 2-C is for 3D characters who have 4D powers not 4D characters. Or maybe you're right and it just separates them via power level, now that I think about. Not 100% on that.
 
So far the only argument for Morgoth is that he will destroy the universe and kill the Dovahkiin through suffocation, this will not work. Let me explain why.

Let's say that Morgoth start with destroying the universe, we know that with both of them having immeasurable speed, their action speed are the same. So Morgoth will start with him destroying the universe and the Dovahkiin can start with:

A. Alteration spell to transmute his body so that he can survive without air and then proceed to kill or enslaved Morgoth with either Soul Tear, Bend Will or the Staff of Magnus. Most of Morgoth's abilities are useless against the Dovahkiin, so the chance of Morgoth winning is slim, but not zero.

B. Immediately attack him with Bend Will, Soul Tear, or Staff of Magnus to kill Morgoth.

Let's assume that the Dovahkiin doesn't have or know the spell that allow him to survive without air and go with option B, well, the Dovahkiin would still win. Remember, both of them have the same immeasurable speed so their action will start and end at the same time. As soon as the universe is destroyed, then Bend Will shout, Soul Tear or Staff of Magnus will reach Morgoth and two of these will immediately kill Morgoth, and one of these will enslave him.

So Morgoth is dead (or enslaved) and the Dovahkiin is now left in a vacuum without air, so what can the Dovahkiin do?

Well, human can still survive without air for a couple of seconds and even for several minutes in some cases. Since the Dovahkiin's physical capability is peak human, then it will take him a couple of minutes to die. In this time frame, he can just easily go to Apocrypha using the Black Books. End. The Dovahkiin win at the cost of now forever staying in Apocrypha and becoming Hermaeus Mora's servant.

The thing is that if both of them start with their in-character moves, then Morgoth will die first while the Dovahkiin can get out of the void using the Black Books. I honestly can't see how Morgoth can win this matchup.

Edit: This is basically a summary of my arguments + some stuff added.
 
MasterOfArda said:
Does the Dovahkiin have a counter for Power Absorption?
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No, but the Thu'um is an ability that comes from knowledge. It's not something like Hulk's power that comes from radiation or anything like that. To steal the Dovahkiin's Thu'um, you need to literally steal his knowledge which i doubt Morgoth can do. Beside, what will Morgoth even do with that ability?
 
Keeweed said:
Dagon wasn't a Daedric Prince when Alduin fought him, this has been explained like 5 times now on this site. Also Tsun behind Shor's right hand man doesn't matter especially since Tsun tells you he wasn't trying at all and gives up after literally a single hit into the "fight".
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Fair enough with the Dagon point. However, for the Tsun I'd like to think it 50/50 on that, because prior to that fight a Daedric prince stated that the Dovahkiin was nearly as powerful as he was.

Obviously the Daedric prince was only at fraction to half of his power, but shouldn't that still bump Dovahkiin up still since a Daedric princeis like 1-A and that is infinitely higher regardless of how much he had?


On topic: I still don't see anyway Dovahkiin can lost this fight he has far too many Hax abilities and stat amplification to make him even stronger, and more powerful. the only way I see Dovahkiin losing is if he just stands their doing nothing.
 
What? The Daedric Princes are low 1-C when they are on their realm and low 2-C when they are on Mundus. Clavicus Vile was obviously talking about how you are nearly as powerful as his half power self.
 
It is not magic.

Well, it doesn't really matter anyway. The Staff of Magnus absorbtion ability is much more potent and deadly. And trying to copy and take the Dovahkiin's Thu'um would require Morgoth to literally steal Dovahkiin's knowledge.

Edit: How does Morgoth's power absorbtion ability works?
 
Waria Kambang said:
What? The Daedric Princes are low 1-C when they are on their realm and low 2-C when they are on Mundus. Clavicus Vile was obviously talking about how you are nearly as powerful as his half power self.
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Yeah, I know I was misinformed on that part. thank you for clearly that up.
 
Jimboydejuan12 said:
Nah checked counted voted?
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The old vote is 9 for the Dovahkiin, 1 for Morgoth. The new vote is 3 (MyGod, me and Ogbanubali) for the Dovahkiin, 1 (MasterofArda) for Morgoth and 1 (Saga89) for Inconclusive. I personally believe that the old vote is still useable since the reasoning is still valid, but eh.
 
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