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Actually, this is incorrect:Keeweed said:high 3-A are infinitely weaker than low 2-C so they don't count
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Actually, this is incorrect:Keeweed said:high 3-A are infinitely weaker than low 2-C so they don't count
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1. Bend Will and Black Books are the only reason that you are even able to fight against Miraak in equal ground. The same Miraak who stomp Alduin in AP. Even Hermaeus Mora himself stated that without the Bend Will shout, you are no match against Miraak:MasterOfArda said:snip
It is either. It is manipulating the inner tones which shape all of reality. | |
~ Matthew Schroeder |
Because depending on how it is interpreted, it is either higher-end Low 2-C or low-end 2-C. | ||
~ Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot |
When I said "The latter can simply be used to achieve the former if it's potent enough to do so", I meant that Information Manipulation can be used to affect concepts if it's potent enough to do so. It doesn't suddenly become Concept Manipulation as a power, and a character resisting Information Manipulation that affects concepts is still resistance to Information Manipulation. In a similar vein, resisting Time Manipulation doesn't give you resistance to Plot Manipulation that's used to reverse time. | ||
~ Mr. King of Negativity |
Nocturnal having a 99.999% chance of winning doesn't mean that the prisoner will always end up winning if they have a smidgen of a chanceKeeweed said:The Vestige Resistance to: "Probability Manipulation (Exists outside of all Possibility as a tear in reality, having defeated Nocturnal and her forces despite the fact she had 99,99% chance of succeeding)"This applies to the Dovahkiin as well because he's a prisoner
We know the nature of the prisonerEmperorRorepme said:Dovahkiin has resisted Thu'um's before. I agree the nature of The Prisoner shoud be clarified for people. In Lore disregarding Game Mechanics it is a constant who is unbound by the causality of the dream. Sotha Sil who has deterministic views stated this. They're like a tear in reality.
No there's another person, MasterOfArdaEmperorRorepme said:Is Paul Frank the only person arguing for Morgoth? If so, that should be a wrap.
1. Every shouts consist of three words of power. You only unlock the shouts true power by using all three words of power.MasterOfArda said:Snips
When I said "The latter can simply be used to achieve the former if it's potent enough to do so", I meant that Information Manipulation can be used to affect concepts if it's potent enough to do so. It doesn't suddenly become Concept Manipulation as a power, and a character resisting Information Manipulation that affects concepts is still resistance to Information Manipulation. In a similar vein, resisting Time Manipulation doesn't give you resistance to Plot Manipulation that's used to reverse time. | ||
~ Mr. King of Negativity |
And i see that Morgoth doesn't have soul manipulation resistance, so what's going to stop the Dovahkiin from soul tearing Morgoth and soul trap him using Soul Tear inside of Azura's Star? |
Saga89 said:Morgoth
1) Can Dragonrend truly affect Morgoth? His fana/hroa is already temporary, he has changed it a number of times. Fruh/Temporary wouldn't be anything new to him. Zah/Finite wouldn't work on him either, since he already knows, understands and utilizes the concept to divide and bestow his own power on other creatures, very much in the same way Sauron crafted the One Ring.
2) For Bend Will to have effect, Morgoth would have to consent it to have power over him, as he did out of arrogance to better enjoy Luthien's song. He does not have a "mind" to be affected in the common sense, he is a ealar, a concept complete in itself.
3) As far as I understand the whole diatribe on Concept Manipulation, the Dovahkiin would still need time to craft a new shout, not an easy nor istantaneous task. How much time did it take to Paarthurnax and the Ancient Nord Tongues to come up with Dragonrend?
EDIT: "What's going to stop the Dovahkiin from soul tearing Morgoth and soul trap him using Soul Tear inside of Azura's Star?" That would create some interesting situations. But really, Star and soulgems cannot absorb draconic souls, why should they be able to absorb a soul as powerful as a Valar?
Admitted but not granted that Azura's/Black Star is able to absorb a soul of this magnitude, it could potentially become an artifact similar to the One Ring, linked to Morgoth's will. In the event Morgoth is dragged in its entirety (he is ealar after all) into the Soul Cairn, that would probably open a conflict between Morgoth and the Ideal Masters over control of the trapped souls, but there would be nothing holding Morgoth into the Soul Cairn but its own whim.
1. Dragonrend will affect Morgoth whether he understand the meaning of mortality or not though.
That's just an assumption as good as mine: Morgoth could manipulate and also circumvent things like "death" and "mortality" in a world were death 1) is personified, 2) is at the same time a physical place, and 3) is also a state of reality dictated by the will of Eru Iluvatar. Melkor was able to found meanings to create necromancy, create spirits of unknown origin without diminishing himself and fool the Gift of Me.Waria Kambang said:1. Dragonrend will affect Morgoth whether he understand the meaning of mortality or not though.
Without further elaboration, these points does not invalidate my argument. In particular, I need a source for your first point, while the second only further prove the uselesness of Namira's Ring.Zhepar said:1-Bend will is not temporary , just in gameplay mechanics is, Miraak controled several dragons with it for Eras.
2- Daedric Artifacts works according to the power of user, so the powers it has in game for Dovahkin is true
3-Azura star can take vivec soul and he dont get power of the heart of lorkhan alone, most of his power possibly comes from Chim.