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The Dovahkiin vs Morgoth

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Keeweed said:
high 3-A are infinitely weaker than low 2-C so they don't count
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Actually, this is incorrect:


  • High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.
As seen here, High 3-A characters can be simply non-universal 4-D (This is what LOTR High 3-A are). They can be to Low 2-C as 3-B is to 3-A.
 
The difference between 3-B and 3-A is still gigantic. The high 3-A would be completely worthless. Especially since Morgoth isn't baseline low 2-C so the gap is even bigger.

Like the high 3-A's are ants to Morgoth at best and infinity weaker at worst.
 
For the sake of not being a nlf I feel we should only say dragonrend can nullify the immortalities listed on alduins profile

Also the Thu'um is putting your voice into the song of creation to achieve the effects of the shouts you aren't manipulating the concepts of the world you are manipulating the information

It might be able to affect concepts but it's still not concept manip
 
Aldui Literally has every immortality Morgoth has so even if that's the case it still works here.

Edit: (Also I know it's poor timing but I'm a really stubborn person and can't think well while tired and stressed so I'm going to bed (probably not leaving the site but am leaving versus debates until the morning)).
 
MasterOfArda said:
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1. Bend Will and Black Books are the only reason that you are even able to fight against Miraak in equal ground. The same Miraak who stomp Alduin in AP. Even Hermaeus Mora himself stated that without the Bend Will shout, you are no match against Miraak:

"I know what you want: to use you power as Dragonborn to bend the world to your will. Here then is the knowledge you need, although you did not know you needed it. The second Word of Power. Use it to bend the wills of mortals to your purpose. But this is not enough. Miraak knows the final Word of Power. Without that, you cannot hope to surpass him. Miraak served me well, and he was rewarded. I can grant you the same power as he wields, but all knowledge has its price."

2. Fighting against thousands of High 3-As is still not impressive. Agains, those high 3-As can't even annoy him at their level of power, much less hurt him and Morgoth can just kill them by sneezing at them if anything. Especially if we go by what you said, the gap is even higher since he is not baseline.

3. Thu'um basically manipulate the inner tones, which shape all of reality. This include things such as concept, whether it's a concept of mortality(like Dragonrend) or something else. The fact that it's not in profile doesn't mean it's not useable. This is what Matthew has got to say about whether the Thu'um is information or conceptual manipulation (i know his word is not some sort of gospel truth, but he is pretty knowlegable about TES):


It is either. It is manipulating the inner tones which shape all of reality.
~ Matthew Schroeder
4. Morgoth's immortality are 1,3 and 4. His immortality is not type 8. I think you should explain this part more.

5. Again, it's not type 8 immortality.

6. Ring of Namira allow someone to deflect magical damage. This include things such as Tonal Magic which is conceptual.

7. Same reason,

8. Wabbajack is a daedric artifact of a low 1-C being and it's an extension of said being self. Now i'm not saying it's low 1-C in power, but it being able to affect low 2-C being like Melkor is not NLF

9. It's a gameplay mechanic. And even if it's not, Dovahkiin nature as a prisoner would surely make this 1% chance become nearly 100%

10. The first one might become a problem, but the second one is not a problem since Dovahkiin is the prisoner, being who exist outside of possi-point, which is a possible branching future.

Going to respond tommorow since i'm not exactly in a mood to debate extensively
 
9. We need to figure something out for how prisoner metaphysics are used in a debate

It can't just be the protagonist uses whatever they need to win at the right time everytime and they move first

Right now it's treated as if they have a 1% chance to win it becomes a 100%

It literally can't work like this not only does this make the matches a stomp in the favor of the protagonists but no other rpg characters get this luxury

Prisoner metaphysics are literally the explanation for character creation and making choices it's just the protagonist can and has done every possible action not the protagonist is can and has done every possible action but the only one that counts is the best case scenario

As it stands now prisoner metaphysics is used to give the protagonist a 100% win chance in a match ig they have even a 1% chance. This makes matches a stomp because if they have a 1% chance to win it's treated as 100% and if they have no chance to win it's considered a stomp

Someone besides Matt and Ultima needs to figure out how we are going treat the whole prisoner situation because as it stands it's the equivalent of me saying the p5 protagonist starts off with whatever his opponent is weak to and 1 shots every time
 
The Vestige Resistance to: "Probability Manipulation (Exists outside of all Possibility as a tear in reality, having defeated Nocturnal and her forces despite the fact she had 99,99% chance of succeeding)"

This applies to the Dovahkiin as well because he's a prisoner
 
1. I don't get this quote. Is Bend Will the final Word of Power, or the second?

2. If the Dovahkiin had equal power, he would be the same tier. The reason for Morgoth being the tier he is, is specfically because he is powerful.

Because depending on how it is interpreted, it is either higher-end Low 2-C or low-end 2-C.
~ Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot​
3. Just because he can use information manipulation to the level of conceptual manipulation does not give him conceptual manipulation.

When I said "The latter can simply be used to achieve the former if it's potent enough to do so", I meant that Information Manipulation can be used to affect concepts if it's potent enough to do so. It doesn't suddenly become Concept Manipulation as a power, and a character resisting Information Manipulation that affects concepts is still resistance to Information Manipulation. In a similar vein, resisting Time Manipulation doesn't give you resistance to Plot Manipulation that's used to reverse time.
~ Mr. King of Negativity​
4. His immortalities are derivied from Eru. He doesn't get a bonus immortality. Simply his immortalities cannot be removed (Without overruling Eru)

5. See above.

6. Just because it can deflecet a certain conceptual attack does not mean it can deflect all of them. Morgoth does not use Tonal Magic.

7. Morgoth does not use Tonal Magic.

8. Morgoth is intangible and non-corporal.

9. See above.

10. All right. But Morgoth still has power absorption.
 
Keeweed said:
The Vestige Resistance to: "Probability Manipulation (Exists outside of all Possibility as a tear in reality, having defeated Nocturnal and her forces despite the fact she had 99,99% chance of succeeding)"This applies to the Dovahkiin as well because he's a prisoner
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Nocturnal having a 99.999% chance of winning doesn't mean that the prisoner will always end up winning if they have a smidgen of a chance

Luck is a thing

Also if that's the quote used to explain metaphysics and the justification for resistance to probability manipulation you guys should change it

Winning when you have a high chance to lose doesn't give you resistance to probability manip which is what that seems to imply

Also again even if you say that if they have any chance to win they always will (which is not at all how it works) then no elderscrolls protagonist can be allowed in versus battles as all of them are stomps

Either they

Turn a .0000001% chance into 100% via always using whag they need to when they need to and attacking first whilst having the perfect defense and everything

Or they have a 0% chance and it stays 0% and they are stomped

Either one of those cases are stomps
 
Just to clarify, Thu'um is actually conceptual manipulation. The whole of the IS-IS NOT interplay is actually music therefore all the concepts, matter, laws, everything within reality is music. Beings in TES use Thu'um to add, alter or erase music which in turn adds to alters or erases reality. It being "information manipulation" is just because of the nature of Thu'um.
 
Dovahkiin has resisted Thu'um's before which alter reality. I agree the nature of The Prisoner shoud be clarified for people. In Lore disregarding Game Mechanics it is a constant who is unbound by the causality of the dream. Sotha Sil who has deterministic views stated this. They're like a tear in reality.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Dovahkiin has resisted Thu'um's before. I agree the nature of The Prisoner shoud be clarified for people. In Lore disregarding Game Mechanics it is a constant who is unbound by the causality of the dream. Sotha Sil who has deterministic views stated this. They're like a tear in reality.
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We know the nature of the prisoner

What isn't known is how that works in the context of a versus match

Right now Matt and the other tes supports try to treat it as unless the character gets stomped 100% of the time they win 100% of the time

This is not only not how prisoner metaphysics works but also doesn't work in the context of the debate

So if we keep treating prisoner metaphysics how it is treated now (a guaranteed win 100% of the time unless the character gets stomped) then the tes protagonists can't have any matches that aren't stomps

It we don't then we need to figure out how it would be used in the context of a debate i.e resistance to probability manip
 
Can someone ask either Matt or Ultima to join this thread, I've already asked them to join another thread before so I feel to nervous to. Just to clarify I honest don't care who wins at this point. I actually now want Morgoth to win because at least all his threads don't turn into Cluster f***. But I do feel like there's a lot of downplay and wank on every side here for both characters and I think they could help out here.
 
I still feel dovahkiin definitely wins this by merit of resisting 99% of what morgoth has but not because of prisoner metaphysics being a lol I win button

So dovahkiin fra that don't include metaphysics
 
I think we should at least ask the previous voters to confirm their vote or see if it has changed because of the arguements.
 
MasterOfArda said:
Snips
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1. Every shouts consist of three words of power. You only unlock the shouts true power by using all three words of power.

2. You are intentionally using the highest interpretation possible. I'm my opinion, fighting against thousands of. High 3-As is not exactly impressive when they are like an ant to you. Especially when you are not even baseline.

3. Like Emperor said. Thu'um manipulate the inner tones, which shape ALL of reality. This include things such as concept.

4. The immortality was only given by Eru. Doesn't mean Morgoth have 2-C level immortality (is that even a thing?). Auriel's Shield was created by Anui-El whose power is 1-A but you don't see me arguing that Dovahkiin have 1-A durability. The only two that i see that are combat applicable is the type 3 and 4. The type 3 can be bypassed by soul attack (which is what Soul Tear is for) and how long does it take for Morgoth to ressurect or reincarnate himself?

5. You are missing the point. The fact is that they can deflect atttacks that manipulate concept.

6. Same as above.

7. But their nature as something that manipulate concept is the same, no?

8. Which is something that he doesn't start with and might have lost when he become Morgoth.

9. The Dovahkiin as a prisoner is someone who Simutaneously of every races, gender and who walks all path. And again, the Mehrunes Razor thing is a game mechanic.

10. OK

And i see that Morgoth doesn't have soul manipulation resistance, so what's going to stop the Dovahkiin from soul tearing Morgoth and soul trap him using Soul Tear inside of Azura's Star?

Going to school soon.
 
Morgoth

1) Can Dragonrend truly affect Morgoth? His fana/hroa is already temporary, he has changed it a number of times. Fruh/Temporary wouldn't be anything new to him. Zah/Finite wouldn't work on him either, since he already knows, understands and utilizes the concept to divide and bestow his own power on other creatures, very much in the same way Sauron crafted the One Ring.

2) For Bend Will to have effect, Morgoth would have to consent it to have power over him, as he did out of arrogance to better enjoy Luthien's song. He does not have a "mind" to be affected in the common sense, he is a ealar, a concept complete in itself.

3) As far as I understand the whole diatribe on Concept Manipulation, the Dovahkiin would still need time to craft a new shout, not an easy nor istantaneous task. How much time did it take to Paarthurnax and the Ancient Nord Tongues to come up with Dragonrend?


EDIT: "What's going to stop the Dovahkiin from soul tearing Morgoth and soul trap him using Soul Tear inside of Azura's Star?" That would create some interesting situations. But really, Star and soulgems cannot absorb draconic souls, why should they be able to absorb a soul as powerful as a Valar?

Admitted but not granted that Azura's/Black Star is able to absorb a soul of this magnitude, it could potentially become an artifact similar to the One Ring, linked to Morgoth's will. In the event Morgoth is dragged in its entirety (he is ealar after all) into the Soul Cairn, that would probably open a conflict between Morgoth and the Ideal Masters over control of the trapped souls, but there would be nothing holding Morgoth into the Soul Cairn but its own whim.
 
Azura star can contain vivec and alamalexia soul, one is at least low 1-c and the other is 1-A

1- i did not understand so i will let another person comment

2-It can affect alduin, the end of times becomes tangible and was killed with it, why morgoth would not?

3-Paanthurrax did not create the shout and the nords are not dragonborns, so for the dragonborn is pretty much inconclusive, maybe seconds like alduin possibly created a shout to revive dragons in the first moments in the game and dragonborn thu'um is stronger or maybe weeks, we dont know for sure
 
1. All right. So is Bend Will a shout, or a Word of Power?

2. The interpratation I am using was accepted in CRT. If it is incorrect, than another CRT needs to correct it. As it stands, that is what the page says.

3. Even if the Dovahkiin can produce the same affects as Conceptual Manipulation does not mean he either has it or resist it.

4. I am saying to overrule his immortality would require 2-C power to overrule it.

5. I refer to Mr. King of Negativity again:

When I said "The latter can simply be used to achieve the former if it's potent enough to do so", I meant that Information Manipulation can be used to affect concepts if it's potent enough to do so. It doesn't suddenly become Concept Manipulation as a power, and a character resisting Information Manipulation that affects concepts is still resistance to Information Manipulation. In a similar vein, resisting Time Manipulation doesn't give you resistance to Plot Manipulation that's used to reverse time.
~ Mr. King of Negativity​
6. See above

7. No. Just because Tonal Magic can acheive Conceptual Manipulation, and Ainur magic is Conceptual Manipulation, does not mean Ainur magic is a type of Tonal Magic or vice versa.

8. Morgoth is not being used, and intangibility/non-corpreality is not a power, it is passive state of being.

9. See above

And i see that Morgoth doesn't have soul manipulation resistance, so what's going to stop the Dovahkiin from soul tearing Morgoth and soul trap him using Soul Tear inside of Azura's Star?
I refer to Saga89, as he appears more knowledgable on the subject.
 
Realized that I messed up and typed the words to Dragonrend instead of Bend Will. Fixed it, now.

That said, just using the first two Words of Power allows the Dragonborn to enslave anyone he uses it on, person or animal, including those that have previously established resistance to mind manipulation, the third word just amplifies the shout. The only ones who resist the full three words are a select few dragons: Alduin (for obvious reasons, being the primary antagonist), Paarthurnax (again, for obvious reasons, being a major important story character), Durnehviir (he's already your ally, but frankly it's most likely something a dev overlooked, as you can use it on Odahviing when you summon him), and several dragons whose locations don't allow you to fly a dragon around, because they're in enclosed spaces (gameplay mechanics).

Elsewise, it'll work on everybody from Ralof to Ulfric, from Hadvar to Tullius, etc. etc.
 
Saga89 said:
Morgoth

1) Can Dragonrend truly affect Morgoth? His fana/hroa is already temporary, he has changed it a number of times. Fruh/Temporary wouldn't be anything new to him. Zah/Finite wouldn't work on him either, since he already knows, understands and utilizes the concept to divide and bestow his own power on other creatures, very much in the same way Sauron crafted the One Ring.

2) For Bend Will to have effect, Morgoth would have to consent it to have power over him, as he did out of arrogance to better enjoy Luthien's song. He does not have a "mind" to be affected in the common sense, he is a ealar, a concept complete in itself.

3) As far as I understand the whole diatribe on Concept Manipulation, the Dovahkiin would still need time to craft a new shout, not an easy nor istantaneous task. How much time did it take to Paarthurnax and the Ancient Nord Tongues to come up with Dragonrend?


EDIT: "What's going to stop the Dovahkiin from soul tearing Morgoth and soul trap him using Soul Tear inside of Azura's Star?" That would create some interesting situations. But really, Star and soulgems cannot absorb draconic souls, why should they be able to absorb a soul as powerful as a Valar?

Admitted but not granted that Azura's/Black Star is able to absorb a soul of this magnitude, it could potentially become an artifact similar to the One Ring, linked to Morgoth's will. In the event Morgoth is dragged in its entirety (he is ealar after all) into the Soul Cairn, that would probably open a conflict between Morgoth and the Ideal Masters over control of the trapped souls, but there would be nothing holding Morgoth into the Soul Cairn but its own whim.
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Code: 
1. Dragonrend will affect Morgoth whether he understand the meaning of mortality or not though.
2. Bend Will shout can even force things that doesn't have mind to bend to Dragonborn's Will. The very first word of Bend Will shout is "earth"

3. No idea.

4. Azura's Star has been described as being infinite in size and is and extension of a low 1-C being. Pretty sure itu can absorb Morgoth. Beside Morgoth's soul would need to be used before itu goes to Soul Cairn.
 
My memories on Morrowind are rather nebulous. As far as I recall the Tribunal were a bunch of amateurs struggling to maintain their powers and failing horribly. Upon their death they could have well "released" their original mortal soul, still a "normal" black soul albeit an extremely powerful one. What's more: 1) having knowledge on how to affect superior realities/entities isn't automatically equal to actually having said power, and 2) all fluff written on the subject by Michael Kirkbride is either from the point of view of the Tribunal itself or that of its disciples and so it may not be reliable.

Going back to the Dragonborn-Alduin fight, the Dragonborn defeated Alduin but could not destroy him and neither absorb his soul, possibly because his (Alduin) soul is too close to Akatosh and the nature of the Tower and the Wheel. This would be the case wheter the Dragonborn could best Morgoth in combat, as I will further elaborate, except Morgoth would be back to the fight almost immediatly by crafting a new fana.

Waria Kambang said:
1. Dragonrend will affect Morgoth whether he understand the meaning of mortality or not though.
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That's just an assumption as good as mine: Morgoth could manipulate and also circumvent things like "death" and "mortality" in a world were death 1) is personified, 2) is at the same time a physical place, and 3) is also a state of reality dictated by the will of Eru Iluvatar. Melkor was able to found meanings to create necromancy, create spirits of unknown origin without diminishing himself and fool the Gift of Me.

Lets say Bend Will is able to command Morgoth. What can the Dragonborn do then? Destroy its fana? Morgoth would just create a new one, perhaps even mightier. Command it out of the boundaries of the Tower/Wheel? Morgoth would just come back again without the constant efforts of multiple 2-C entities to keep him locked away from reality (the Door of Night). Use first Dragon Rend and then command him to stay put as its body is destroyed? See above, the Dragonborn couldn't completely destroy Alduin even with Dragon Rend.

Things would even go worse for the Dragonborn if we consider canon his vampire state, as Morgoth could then have absolute command over him. As I mentioned undeads, remember Durnehviir was undead, so it was no overlook by the developers that turned him immune to Bend Will. Morgoth can also summon numerous spirits powerful enough to be a serious threat to Tilion while empowered by the flower of Telperion, wich should be bordering 2-C as Telperion holds enough power to ignite every star in the universe even while dying and corrupted. Conversely, I would take the whole Jills affair with a grain of salt as their concept was scrapped for the final release of the game: for all we know those Jills could have been the very same dragons buried in the Mounds scattered around Skyrim. Also, in order to "fix" time, Jills seems not to operate alone but in packs (flights?), so on their own they might not even be low 2-C.

I wouldn't even consider items like the Ring of Namira as its effects differ too much on every game it has appeared: in Skyrim it has no reflecting property.

Regarding Tonal Magic, in a way Morgoth can be compared to the vibrations themselves. It would be hilarious seeing the Dovahkiin trying to use said vibrations on Morgoth and discover said vibrations can answer back and say no. Lets say the Dovahkiin resorts to crazy shenanigans and try mantling Morgoth, what would be the result? Wouldn't now the Dovahkiin be influenced by Morgoth's foundamental nature of strife, ambition and desire that's now mantling? So we can just say Morgoth just reversed back to Melkor only to be back again later in its "more evil" form as he would inevitably fight anyone daring to oppose his desires. Woul that mean a defeat? Would that mean that both contendants are no more? Again, Morgoth/Melkor is an ealar, a concept, and the concept would still exist.

My take is, as both seems to lack the magical skills to effect one another, it's all down to Melkor's infinite endurance while the Dovahkiin can get tired. To quote both Martin and Tolkien, "Fingolfin fought valiantly, Fingolfin fought nobly, Fingolfin fought honorably. And Fingolfin died." and so would the Dragonborn.
 
1-Bend will is not temporary , just in gameplay mechanics is, Miraak controled several dragons with it for Eras.

2- Daedric Artifacts works according to the power of user, so the powers it has in game for Dovahkin is true

3-Azura star can take vivec soul and he dont get power of the heart of lorkhan alone, most of his power possibly comes from Chim.
 
Zhepar said:
1-Bend will is not temporary , just in gameplay mechanics is, Miraak controled several dragons with it for Eras.
2- Daedric Artifacts works according to the power of user, so the powers it has in game for Dovahkin is true

3-Azura star can take vivec soul and he dont get power of the heart of lorkhan alone, most of his power possibly comes from Chim.
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Without further elaboration, these points does not invalidate my argument. In particular, I need a source for your first point, while the second only further prove the uselesness of Namira's Ring.

Finally, I already have addressed the tird point, as you yourself show the key word is "possibly". Nothing on this subject is really certain. The processes ascribed to and described by Vivec may be valid in general but nothing proves they are valid regardind Vivec himself (itself?). This again reconnects to the first point as game mechanics does not necessarily contraddict the fluff.

But maybe my last sentence is best explained by examples. Upon exiting Sovngarde, Arngeir greets us and claims our Thu'um had proved to be stronger than Alduin's, albeit we could have just defeated Alduin with our ingenuity, our enchanted equipment or whatever else. Arngeir has just made an assumption based on what he knows but this assumption may be true or false. Likewise, Miraak could have used other means to keep the dragon bowed, or this could have been proof of his thu'um being greater than our, or maybe his thu'um was just more "complete" in this one single aspect similarly to how Paarthurnax empowered our Relentless Force (or whatever else we chose in that instance). At least, D&D had tought me there are always way to circumvent spell durations and other limiting mechanics, so Miraak could have just know one little secret that the Dragonborn did not.
 
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