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1. Than it is reality warping, not mind manpulationKIPAS ANGIN SANYO said:
2. It is possible, but there is no proof
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The Dovahkiin vs Morgoth
- Thread starter EmperorRorepmeThree
- Start date
2. It is possible, but there is no proof
1. Than it is reality warping, not mind manpulation
2. It is possible, but there is no proof
1. It's reality warping, information manipulation, and mind manipulation. The fact still stands that the shout attacks the mind and Morgoth have no way to survive it.
2. Thu'um is basically an information manipulation that bend reality at conceptual level, and Dovahkiin resist it.
2. It is possible, but there is no proof
1. It's reality warping, information manipulation, and mind manipulation. The fact still stands that the shout attacks the mind and Morgoth have no way to survive it.
2. Thu'um is basically an information manipulation that bend reality at conceptual level, and Dovahkiin resist it.
I'm also going away.
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1. If it bends reality, its reality warping. If it manipulates the mind, than it is mind manipulation. It can be both, but what you have described is not both.KIPAS ANGIN SANYO said:
2. Conceptual maninpulation is not on the page.
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Just want to point out that when you're arguing for the potency of bend will you should probably mention the fact it works on Dragons and explain what they are rather than say "It changes the song of creation and nirn is 4d"
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That's actually a good point.Paul Frank said:
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1. Bend Will shout force someone to bend to your will by manipulating their mind. So yes, it is mind manipulationattMasterOfArda said:
2. Just going to post what MrKing said:
"Concept Manipulation isn't a "sub-power" of Information Manipulation. The latter can simply be used to achieve the former if it's potent enough to do so, similarly to how particularly potent forms of Reality Warping can also achieve the former. That's why it's linked to the info manip page, not because it's some sub-category."
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Oh ****, Arda is back ovo. Ill follow this, but I think I lean a tad to Melkor just cuz of his concept hax. But then again, I think it is close. Edit: I should clarify I am not voting cuz it should have been added instantly. Unanimous debates usually can be added right away. No one defense Melkor despite having Concept Hax and stupid Immortality. But then again, Dragonborn is no slouch with hax either.
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Unanimous matches don't bypass the grace period anymore.
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LOTR has steadily been losing steam on the wiki for a while now, while TES has been riding a ten-ton speeding train of hype for a couple of months now. so I don't feel much surprise at that tbh.
I have to wonder if anything has been overlooked, though. Very little actual analysis happened until Arda showed up.
I have to wonder if anything has been overlooked, though. Very little actual analysis happened until Arda showed up.
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1. Than I quote what is said beforeWaria Kambang said:
Morgoth can just as easily use conceptual manipulation. Also, does the Dovahkiin have 4-D mental powers. To quote Azathoth:
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If there is still a debate it doesn't really make sense to close it, right?MrKingOfNegativity said:
I ask since you are the discusion mod.
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1. Than I quote what is said before
1. Quoting from Matt: "Dragons in Elder Scrolls are tiny shards of the Dragon God of Time, Aka Himself. They were never truly born, they just are, and always were, as immutable and immortal beings. They predate the creation of Mundus itself.
They aren't even physical beings either, they have been notably described as "Biological Time Machines powered by ideologies" by authors Michael Kirkbride and Kurt Kuhlmann, and are indeed aspects of the Embodiment of Time itself.
As such, dragons are immortal. Even if their flesh is killed on Nirn they will never fully die, they remain, they linger, as they were and always are."
Bend Will can easily mind manip these dragon, which has been described as tiny shard of time and an aspect of the embodiment of Time itself.
Morgoth can just as easily use conceptual manipulation. Also, does the Dovahkiin have 4-D mental powers. To quote Azathoth:
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They aren't even physical beings either, they have been notably described as "Biological Time Machines powered by ideologies" by authors Michael Kirkbride and Kurt Kuhlmann, and are indeed aspects of the Embodiment of Time itself.
As such, dragons are immortal. Even if their flesh is killed on Nirn they will never fully die, they remain, they linger, as they were and always are."
Bend Will can easily mind manip these dragon, which has been described as tiny shard of time and an aspect of the embodiment of Time itself.
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Manipulating a tiny shard of time is not the same as manipulating a being who is above all of Time, Space, Light, Darkness, Matter, Energy, Life, Death, etc. Melkor is to dragons as Morgoth is to humans. Dragons have tiny 4-D power. Morgoth has universal 4-D power. Just because you can control a human (A tiny 3-D entity), doesn't mean you can mind control Morgoth (A massive 3-D entity). Same thing with Melkor. Just because you can control a Dragon (A tiny 4-D entity), doesn't mean you can mind control Melkor (A massive 4-D entity).Waria Kambang said:
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Manipulating a tiny shard of time is not the same as manipulating a being who is above all of Time, Space, Light, Darkness, Matter, Energy, Life, Death, etc. Melkor is to dragons as Morgoth is to humans. Dragons have tiny 4-D power. Morgoth has universal 4-D power. Just because you can control a human (A tiny 3-D entity), doesn't mean you can mind control Morgoth (A massive 3-D entity). Same thing with Melkor. Just because you can control a Dragon (A tiny 4-D entity), doesn't mean you can mind control Melkor (A massive 4-D entity).
Never stated that dragons have 4 dimensional power. What i'm saying is that they are a tiny embodiment of time which is 4-dimensional. Either way, it's irrelevant. Morgoth really have no way to actually hurt the Dovahkiin since he resist his conceptual manipulation, and Dovahkiin still have a bunch of other way to kill Morgoth like Mehrunes Razor, Skull of Corruption that can make a copy of Morgoth, Wabbajack that reality warp Melkor which Melkor does not resist and due to the Dovahkiin nature as a prisoner, Melkor will find himself getting attacked by these attacks all at the same time.
Never stated that dragons have 4 dimensional power. What i'm saying is that they are a tiny embodiment of time which is 4-dimensional. Either way, it's irrelevant. Morgoth really have no way to actually hurt the Dovahkiin since he resist his conceptual manipulation, and Dovahkiin still have a bunch of other way to kill Morgoth like Mehrunes Razor, Skull of Corruption that can make a copy of Morgoth, Wabbajack that reality warp Melkor which Melkor does not resist and due to the Dovahkiin nature as a prisoner, Melkor will find himself getting attacked by these attacks all at the same time.
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1. If dragons don't have 4-D power than manipulating them is not proof that the Dovahkiin can manipulate Morgoth. If they are 4-D, they are still low 4-D, and Morgoth is vastly above them.Waria Kambang said:
2. Can you prove this?
3. Does the Dovahkiin have resistence to death manipulation and power absorption on a conceptual level?
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1. If dragons don't have 4-D power than manipulating them is not proof that the Dovahkiin can manipulate Morgoth. If they are 4-D, they are still low 4-D, and Morgoth is vastly above them.
2. Can you prove this?
2. Not going to repeat myself again, just read the above post by MrKing and A Stoned Orc
2. Can you prove this?
2. Not going to repeat myself again, just read the above post by MrKing and A Stoned Orc
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Okay. Is Bend Will Reality Warping or Mind Manipulation?
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It's both.MasterOfArda said:
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Okay. I think I have debunked its mental effectivness. Tell me if you disagree and I can continue the debate.
What Bend Will was described as was not equal to Morgoth's:
1. It seems to be low-tier 4-D Reality Warping. It can control dragons (Which are nothing to Morgoth)
2. Resisting low-ter Reality Warping is not the same as resisting conceptual manipulation over Time, Space, Light, Darkness, Matter, Energy, Life, Death, etc.
What Bend Will was described as was not equal to Morgoth's:
1. It seems to be low-tier 4-D Reality Warping. It can control dragons (Which are nothing to Morgoth)
2. Resisting low-ter Reality Warping is not the same as resisting conceptual manipulation over Time, Space, Light, Darkness, Matter, Energy, Life, Death, etc.
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1. I think it would be better if you read this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...r/The_Elder_Scrolls:_Metaphysics_&_PhilosophyMasterOfArda said:
Skip to the Tonal Magic part.
2. And the thu'um is not a low-tier reality warping. Alduin with his breath alone (which might also be a Thu'um) was able to kill 22 Jills, with each one of them being low 2-C. His Thu'um is far stronger than that. Post-Dragonborn DLC Dovahkiin is at least 2x more powerful than Miraak, who stomp end game Dovahkiin, who is comparable to Alduin, who by himself stomp 22 Jills who are low 2-C.
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And again, if you read the Dovahkiin profile, Tonal Magic such as the Thu'um falls under category of information manipulation which if it's potent enough can manipulate even concept. The example of this is Dragonrend, which impose the concept of mortality to the immortal dragons.
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1. I will comment on this when I read it.
2. And Morgoth matched 14 Low 2-Cs as well as likely thousands of 4-D High 3-As. The point being that even if the Dovahkiin has more power, Morgoth can still injure him.
2. And Morgoth matched 14 Low 2-Cs as well as likely thousands of 4-D High 3-As. The point being that even if the Dovahkiin has more power, Morgoth can still injure him.
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1. So, the Dovahkiin can manipulate the 4-D reality, if I understood correctly? Either way, I hope you agree that the Dovahkiin cannot outright mind control Morgoth.
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1. As far as i'm aware, yes. But you better ask someone more knowledgable like Matt or Ultima Reality. But do i believe that Bend Will can mind control Melko? Yes, i believe so. But i have said all of my pieces, and there's really no reason for us to debate in circleMasterOfArda said:
2. Melkor was fighting 14 High 3-A who are likely low 2-C. And fighting against thousands of high 3-A is not exactly impressive. They can't even annoy him, much less hurt him. The only impressive feat is fighting against 14 likely low 2-C which when you compare it to Alduin's feat who not only matched 22 low 2-Cs, but also stomp them, it's not really impressive. Post-Dragonborn Dovahkiin then proceed to be come AT LEAST 2x more powerful than Miraak, who stomp end game Dovahkiin who is comparable to Alduin. I'm having a hard time understanding how Melkor is going to win a conceptual manipulation battle against someone who is not only hid superior in said ability, but also resist it.
This is not mentioning other things Dovahkiin can do to kill Melkor. Staff of Corruption can make a duplicate of Melkor, Ring of Namira can reflect any magical or physical damage back to Melkor, Spellbreaker will silence any attempt at using magic, Wabbajack can just reality warp Melkor, and Mehrunes Razor will make Melkor's soul forever enslaved by a low 1-C being.
Going to sleep. So goodbye for now.
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1. Bend Will: I refer to my previous post:
Unless you can show a feat of Bend Will that is controlling a Low 2-C entity, than it seems unlikely it can control Morgoth.
2. Raw Power: He fought 14 Low 2-Cs and thousands of High 3-A. Each of those High 3-As were 4-D. Basically, Morgoth destroyed the entire Universe twice. There is a reason Morgoth is "At least Low 2-C."
If the Dovahkiin had the same level of power, he two would have that tier. That he is solid Low 2-C indicates he is weaker.
3. Reality Warping/Conceptual Manipulation: First off, the Dovahkiin does not have conceptual manipulation, nor does he have resistance to it. You can check the page if you want. If that is wrong, than maybe there needs to be CRT. However, as of now, he does not have it. Morgoth doesn't have resistance to mind manipulation either. He is simply 4-D and requries 4-D mind hax to affect.
4. Immortality: Morgoth's immortality comes from a "At the very least 2-C" entity. Eru is much stronger than the Dovahkiin, and it is unlikely he could bypass Morgoth's immortality.
5. Skull of Corruption: Even if the Skull of Corruption could copy Morgoth, could it really copy Morgoth's immortality. Wouldn't Eru not give it to this copy?
6. Ring of Namira: While the Ring of Namira might deflect Morgoth's raw power, could it deflect Conceptual Manipulation? Even if Magic is considered Reality Warping or even Information Manipualtion, it is still not Conceptual Manipulation.
7. Spellbreaker: Again, while this might stop Morgoth's Reality Warping and most of Morgoth's Elemental Manipulation, his most common attack (Conceptual Manipulation) cannot be deflected.
8. Wabbajack: Can it really instantly OHK a high-end Low 2-C entity? That seems like NLF.
9. Mehrunes Razor: I am not very knowledgeable about this weapon, but doesn't it only have a 1% chance of working? And isn't Morgoth intangible?
10. What Morgoth can do: Morgoth can easily manipulate Time, Space, Light, Darkness, Matter, Energy, Life, Death, etc on a conceptual level. He can replicate the Dovahkiin.
He can see the future and knows all most everything:
And he is non-corporal.
| Manipulating a tiny shard of time is not the same as manipulating a being who is above all of Time, Space, Light, Darkness, Matter, Energy, Life, Death, etc. Melkor is to dragons as Morgoth is to humans. Dragons have tiny 4-D power. Morgoth has universal 4-D power. Just because you can control a human (A tiny 3-D entity), doesn't mean you can mind control Morgoth (A massive 3-D entity). Same thing with Melkor. Just because you can control a Dragon (A tiny 4-D entity), doesn't mean you can mind control Melkor (A massive 4-D entity). |
Unless you can show a feat of Bend Will that is controlling a Low 2-C entity, than it seems unlikely it can control Morgoth.
2. Raw Power: He fought 14 Low 2-Cs and thousands of High 3-A. Each of those High 3-As were 4-D. Basically, Morgoth destroyed the entire Universe twice. There is a reason Morgoth is "At least Low 2-C."
| Because depending on how it is interpreted, it is either higher-end Low 2-C or low-end 2-C. | ||
~ Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot |
3. Reality Warping/Conceptual Manipulation: First off, the Dovahkiin does not have conceptual manipulation, nor does he have resistance to it. You can check the page if you want. If that is wrong, than maybe there needs to be CRT. However, as of now, he does not have it. Morgoth doesn't have resistance to mind manipulation either. He is simply 4-D and requries 4-D mind hax to affect.
4. Immortality: Morgoth's immortality comes from a "At the very least 2-C" entity. Eru is much stronger than the Dovahkiin, and it is unlikely he could bypass Morgoth's immortality.
5. Skull of Corruption: Even if the Skull of Corruption could copy Morgoth, could it really copy Morgoth's immortality. Wouldn't Eru not give it to this copy?
6. Ring of Namira: While the Ring of Namira might deflect Morgoth's raw power, could it deflect Conceptual Manipulation? Even if Magic is considered Reality Warping or even Information Manipualtion, it is still not Conceptual Manipulation.
7. Spellbreaker: Again, while this might stop Morgoth's Reality Warping and most of Morgoth's Elemental Manipulation, his most common attack (Conceptual Manipulation) cannot be deflected.
8. Wabbajack: Can it really instantly OHK a high-end Low 2-C entity? That seems like NLF.
9. Mehrunes Razor: I am not very knowledgeable about this weapon, but doesn't it only have a 1% chance of working? And isn't Morgoth intangible?
10. What Morgoth can do: Morgoth can easily manipulate Time, Space, Light, Darkness, Matter, Energy, Life, Death, etc on a conceptual level. He can replicate the Dovahkiin.
| Power absorption: Morgoth can "sap" the power out of anything, consuming it and turning it into something dark. He seems to be able to absorb the energy of light (And should possess the powers of Ungoliant), though it causes him great pain (See the Silmarils). | ||
~ Morgoth's Page |
He can see the future and knows all most everything:
| Possibly Nigh-Omniscient (The Ainur created the universe and its concepts, with each of them knowing everything related to their respective concept, except for that which Eru himself withheld. Melkor himself had a share in all concepts, and thus likely knew something about them all. Corrupted the vision of creation) | ||
~ Morgoth's Page |
| Foresight/Hindsight: As one of the Ainur, Morgoth can see the past and future. | ||
~ Morgoth's Page |
And he is non-corporal.
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The Dragonborn has Information Manipulation that is potent enough to work as Conceptual Manipulation, and resists the same. Putting Conceptual Manipulation or resistance to it on his profile with that in mind would be redundant.
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Why would it be redundent?A Stoned Orc said:
If you can use Fire Manipulation to the point of Plasma Manipulation, than you would add Plasma Manipulation. I hesitate to accept that he has Conceptual Manipulation, unless it has been accepted in CRT.
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I think you've thoroughly misinterpreted what I said.A Stoned Orc said:
When I said "The latter can simply be used to achieve the former if it's potent enough to do so", I meant that Information Manipulation can be used to affect concepts if it's potent enough to do so. It doesn't suddenly become Concept Manipulation as a power, and a character resisting Information Manipulation that affects concepts is still resistance to Information Manipulation. In a similar vein, resisting Time Manipulation doesn't give you resistance to Plot Manipulation that's used to reverse time.
I don't claim to know anything about TES, so I don't know if there's something extra in regards to the Thu'um that would allow it to qualify as direct Concept Manipulation. But simply being Information Manipulation that can affect concepts is not enough.
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How fast?Keeweed said:
Presumably instantenous. Morgoth has Immeasurable speed.
How strong?
I refer to the above post:
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Keeweed is asking for the mechanics behind the conceptual manipulation--is there a gesture, a phrase, something?
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It is described as speaking, but this is from Elves who can't fully understand the Ainulindalë.Keeweed said:
Usually, what he does is corrupting or destroying concepts.
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Ok, I may vote inconclusive. Now I'm not sure if Dragonrend would be able to negate Morgoth's immortalities or not, but just for the shake of being neutral and to give both a point. Since both are immeasurable and powers are speaking based. If Morgoth gets his immortality canceled the Dragonborn one shots due to one shooting 23 low 2-C compared to Morgoth's 14 (high 3-A are infinitely weaker than low 2-C so they don't count). Dragonrend probably will go off because of the Dragonborn's prisoner nature (I say probably because I don't want to assume to much but that's what I remember). But the Dragonborn dies to Morgoth's concept manipulation at the same time he kills Morgoth so that's why I'm voting inconclusive.
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Morgoth is so vastly downplayed on this Wiki. Morgoth has incredibly potent conceptual manipulation and it makes this no where near as one sided as people imply.
