Caine (WoD) vs The Dovahkiin

[Sir_sun_man]

Idk how Dovahkiin gets past Caine's Mid-Godly Type 4 tho

a couple of his shouts and artifacts could actually nullify up to high godly I believe

dragon rend by itself (it can affect more than simply dragons) can nullify immortality of alduin who like other gods can comeback from having their soul and body fully destroyed so dragon rend would be a good way for the LDB to stop caine from poping back into existence

But then again the 7 fold curse would fold dragonborn 7 times over

(although I do not know how it would interact with the whole prisoner thing as that gives some massive fate based boost that make sure that dovakhiin comes out on top no matter and is tied to the tier 0 dream which will definitly cause some massive tomfoolery between the amaranth and jenova)

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Iirc having other people do the dirty work is how Lilith kills Caine in one of the Gehenna scenarios.

Idk how Dovahkiin gets past Caine's Mid-Godly Type 4 tho

Dragonrend

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Caine doesn't actually have a High 1-A or 1-A key anymore. I just haven't gotten around to sorting out his profile

wait what about him killing an angel doesn't that scale to 1-A?

 

[Udlmaster]

wait what about him killing an angel doesn't that scale to 1-A?

Time of Judgement itself isn't exactly clear on if the Angel was a literal angel or if it was metaphorical.

When I made Caine's profile, I took it as real since it seemed likely at the time, but now I've got a more complete view on the verse, I don't think so, or at least, I don't find it persuasive by itself for a High 1-A rating.

Iirc having other people do the dirty work is how Lilith kills Caine in one of the Gehenna scenarios.

It is, but they are separate entities to her, she couldn't summon her armies of Umbral spirits to do it.

Likewise, it's why her vast number of Hax wouldn't work on Caine, no matter how indirect they were, entirely because of how the Seven-Fold curse works.

In that same scenario, Lilith has to keep trying to stop herself from attacking Caine when he kills one of her Apostles, since when one dies, she attacks Caine for that instant.

The only thing that could kill Caine, besides Diablorie (which wouldn't go well for the Diablorist) was Malakai's unique Discipline which redesigns the world around you to a far greater degree than Chimerstry or Dementation can. The first of which lets you define what is illusion and real, throw people into illusionary realities where the pain they feel is real, block out all of their senses, including extrasensory ones, leaving them in a psychological hell or just declare their nightmares to be real.

Dementation on the other hand lets you speak "Truth beyond truths" and drive someone insane, summon the concept of a sword to cut someone with or fundamentally wreck a victim's sense of reality, changing a fundamental truth of their victim.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Time of Judgement itself isn't exactly clear on if the Angel was a literal angel or if it was metaphorical.

When I made Caine's profile, I took it as real since it seemed likely at the time, but now I've got a more complete view on the verse, I don't think so, or at least, I don't find it persuasive by itself for a High 1-A rating.

I mean considering there is also the whole myth of the bloody man (caine) that the garou belive in where he ripped his way out of the wyrm after the former ate him alive, couldn't caine have at least a possibly high 1-A rating as it is still up to debate if any of the stories of angel killing and wyrm ripping are exactly what happened or if they are more esoteric in their meaning.

I feel that just due to how finiky the world of darkness is it should at least net caine a "possibly high 1-A" rating.

 

[Udlmaster]

I mean considering there is also the whole myth of the bloody man (caine) that the garou belive in where he ripped his way out of the wyrm after the former ate him alive, couldn't caine have at least a possibly high 1-A rating

I would take that as even less persuasive, entirely because the Wyrm and the rest of the Triat are so completely beyond the scale of regular shit in WoD.

Likewise, they aren't even physical beings as far as other Umbrood go, unlike with Angels who can appear and materialize in the physical world, The Triat don't manifest into the Tellurian in full, they're too big.

The Weaver sits in the Pattern web which more intersects with with the Tellurian but is in fact bigger, the Wyld is metaphorically above the Tellurian, raining down pure creative energy which splashes onto the Void.

The Wyrm's Mouth is the Void, which taking that as a parable implies the Void is only the tip of the iceberg for what the Wyrm is.

From this, the idea that Caine ripped his way out of the Wyrm is just fanciful storytelling and not to be taken literally. Especially since the fact that if Caine could do that, Caine would be stronger than Lilith, which he isn't.

I feel that just due to how finiky the world of darkness is it should at least net caine a "possibly high 1-A" rating.

It's mostly because of how Caine interacts with the other Major entities, he's constantly terrified of Lucifer and Lilith has been chasing him for over 10,000 years.

He is also hurt by 3rd Generation Vampires, which puts him in the 5-B to Low 2-C ranges rather than High 1-A.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I would take that as even less persuasive, entirely because the Wyrm and the rest of the Triat are so completely beyond the scale of regular shit in WoD.

Likewise, they aren't even physical beings as far as other Umbrood go, unlike with Angels who can appear and materialize in the physical world, The Triat don't manifest into the Tellurian in full, they're too big.

The Weaver sits in the Pattern web which more intersects with with the Tellurian but is in fact bigger, the Wyld is metaphorically above the Tellurian, raining down pure creative energy which splashes onto the Void.

The Wyrm's Mouth is the Void, which taking that as a parable implies the Void is only the tip of the iceberg for what the Wyrm is.

From this, the idea that Caine ripped his way out of the Wyrm is just fanciful storytelling and not to be taken literally. Especially since the fact that if Caine could do that, Caine would be stronger than Lilith, which he isn't.

It's mostly because of how Caine interacts with the other Major entities, he's constantly terrified of Lucifer and Lilith has been chasing him for over 10,000 years.

He is also hurt by 3rd Generation Vampires, which puts him in the 5-B to Low 2-C ranges rather than High 1-A.

when did the antideluvians hurt cain?

 

[Udlmaster]

when did the antideluvians hurt cain?

Lilith's Apostles are 3rd Generation vampires who were called in to fight Caine in her stead.

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

I would take that as even less persuasive, entirely because the Wyrm and the rest of the Triat are so completely beyond the scale of regular shit in WoD.

Likewise, they aren't even physical beings as far as other Umbrood go, unlike with Angels who can appear and materialize in the physical world, The Triat don't manifest into the Tellurian in full, they're too big.

The Weaver sits in the Pattern web which more intersects with with the Tellurian but is in fact bigger, the Wyld is metaphorically above the Tellurian, raining down pure creative energy which splashes onto the Void.

The Wyrm's Mouth is the Void, which taking that as a parable implies the Void is only the tip of the iceberg for what the Wyrm is.

From this, the idea that Caine ripped his way out of the Wyrm is just fanciful storytelling and not to be taken literally. Especially since the fact that if Caine could do that, Caine would be stronger than Lilith, which he isn't.

It's mostly because of how Caine interacts with the other Major entities, he's constantly terrified of Lucifer and Lilith has been chasing him for over 10,000 years.

He is also hurt by 3rd Generation Vampires, which puts him in the 5-B to Low 2-C ranges rather than High 1-A.

Why does Lucifer wanna kill him again

 

[Udlmaster]

Why does Lucifer wanna kill him again

Lucifer is mostly indifferent but...

In the scenario where Lucifer jumps into the fight, he does so because Caine raped and murdered his children and burnt his home to the ground.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Lucifer is mostly indifferent but...

In the scenario where Lucifer jumps into the fight, he does so because Caine raped and murdered his children and burnt his home to the ground.

Heated gaming moment

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

Lucifer is mostly indifferent but...

In the scenario where Lucifer jumps into the fight, he does so because Caine raped and murdered his children and burnt his home to the ground.

Sheesh. If I were Caine I’d be sending out apology letters lmao

 

[DOOMSLAYER127]

Lilith's Apostles are 3rd Generation vampires who were called in to fight Caine in her stead.

I don't remember clearly but in the gehenna Toj book, it said that Lilith empowered the Antediluvians(apostles) or something. So they are capable of hurting Caine because she empowered them?

 

[Udlmaster]

I don't remember clearly but in the gehenna Toj book, it said that Lilith empowered the Antediluvians(apostles) or something. So they are capable of hurting Caine because she empowered them?

Yeah, they have her blessing, but so does Caine, that's how he became who he is in the first place.

As for what the empowerment actually does, we don't know. The Player characters can become empowered by drinking Lilith's blood at her behest, however, it just stops Jehovah's influence over you if you're using Wormwood and lets you somewhat handle standing in the day. Besides that, there's no actual benefits the players get.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Yeah, they have her blessing, but so does Caine, that's how he became who he is in the first place.

As for what the empowerment actually does, we don't know. The Player characters can become empowered by drinking Lilith's blood at her behest, however, it just stops Jehovah's influence over you if you're using Wormwood and lets you somewhat handle standing in the day. Besides that, there's no actual benefits the players get.

I mean seems more like a gameplay thing, its clear that the antidiluviants get a power boost of some sort to actually be able to stand up to caine at all since ya know the guy basically has all of their abilities but to an unfathomably greater extent and all.

 

[Udlmaster]

I mean seems more like a gameplay thing, its clear that the antidiluviants get a power boost of some sort to actually be able to stand up to caine at all since ya know the guy basically has all of their abilities but to an unfathomably greater extent and all.

While true, Caine is affected by non-Lilith empowered Antediluvians, such as Tremere's ritual where he tries to diablorize Caine and every human soul in existence.

Ante's might not be on Caine's level, but they can still hurt him and harm him, hence why there's 8 Antediluvians fighting Caine all at once.

You also have to remember, Antediluvians represent an unsurpassable level of power to Vampires already, there's nothing a person can do to a Antediluvian as even a Methuselah, so they're already above the metaphorical "Power cliff".

Ultimately, I think it's fine Caine is in the Antediluvian levels.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

While true, Caine is affected by non-Lilith empowered Antediluvians, such as Tremere's ritual where he tries to diablorize Caine and every human soul in existence.

Ante's might not be on Caine's level, but they can still hurt him and harm him, hence why there's 8 Antediluvians fighting Caine all at once.

You also have to remember, Antediluvians represent an unsurpassable level of power to Vampires already, there's nothing a person can do to a Antediluvian as even a Methuselah, so they're already above the metaphorical "Power cliff".

Ultimately, I think it's fine Caine is in the Antediluvian levels.

I mean even if we take the fact that some antediluvians can harm and take caine down through sheer numbers I'd still say it is a bit of a strech to say that ante's are any where near caine's level when we consider that in the Gahenna story is just one long suicide note of caine where he is just trying to die.

I mean the guy is taking on 8 antediluvians with a good chunk of them being empowered by lilith with others using tricks and rituals to try and kill caine in an 8 on 1 fight and he could've still killed them all and yet he simply wishes to die in the end.

 

[Udlmaster]

I mean the guy is taking on 8 antediluvians with a good chunk of them being empowered by lilith with others using tricks and rituals to try and kill caine in an 8 on 1 fight and he could've still killed them all and yet he simply wishes to die in the end.

The ritual isn't being done in Foul is Fair, it's done in another one which focuses on the 13 Antediluvians.

Also, Caine's desire to die isn't a factor here, we're told throughout the book that if Caine finally feels remorse for his actions the Seven-Fold curse will break, but it's been 10,000 years and he still hasn't. To quote the book "The most important thing to remember about Caine, whatever he has done for the past several millennia, is that he is a man consumed by greed and pride."

I'm definitely not saying Caine and the Ante's are equals by any measure nor am I saying that Caine is weak, I'm saying that Ante's still have the power to affect Caine.

That is the say, the difference between Caine and the Antediluvians isn't the same difference between Antediluvians and all other vampires, to whom Antes can automatically negate any attack or assault without rolling.

Also, I double checked what Lilith's blood actually does, the book itself isn't very clear, the only explained power it gives someone is if they've drank a few drops of Lilith's blood they become Immune to Withering, or at the very least, it can slow it down. Any other powers it gives are entirely up to the Storyteller.

There is something more interesting relating to the Seven-Fold curse that I'll add to the profile, since it's very important to Saulot's storyline in Fair is Foul but that's not Caine's power.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

As for what the empowerment actually does, we don't know. The Player characters can become empowered by drinking Lilith's blood at her behest, however, it just stops Jehovah's influence over you if you're using Wormwood and lets you somewhat handle standing in the day. Besides that, there's no actual benefits the players get.

Also, I double checked what Lilith's blood actually does, the book itself isn't very clear, the only explained power it gives someone is if they've drank a few drops of Lilith's blood they become Immune to Withering, or at the very least, it can slow it down. Any other powers it gives are entirely up to the Storyteller.

Tbf that does mean that Lilith's blood contains the ability to largely negate a curse levied by a Tier 0 (soon to be High 1-A), and I presume has similar plot-warping properties to Dot 10 Disciplines, though likely at greater scale if so. Thusly it could logically follow that her Apostle Antediluvians, who have likely had far more exposure to her blood than the player characters, would be beefed up to quite a significant degree, even compared to the absolute lunacy that is other Antediluvians. I believe they'd upscale heavily, if not outright be on a different scale from their non-Lilithpilled siblings. Keep in mind that Caine was able to inflict lasting and irrevocable curses upon the core clan progenitor Antediluvians by pretty much just canceling them on the vitae telepathic network, and they were completely helpless to do anything about it.

TL;DR: Lilith's blood counts for quite a lot and the Apostle Antediluvians almost certainly are a different case from the others since mfs like Absimiliard and Troile could get yanked around by Caine on a whim and couldn't do a thing about it. Therefore, Caine is well above the 5-B to Low 2-C range of our creepy-ass eldritch grandpas. Iirc he can also kill Lilith in a straight fight

 

[Udlmaster]

Tbf that does mean that Lilith's blood contains the ability to largely negate a curse levied by a Tier 0 (soon to be High 1-A), and I presume has similar plot-warping properties to Dot 10 Disciplines, though likely at greater scale if so. Thusly it could logically follow that her Apostle Antediluvians, who have likely had far more exposure to her blood than the player characters, would be beefed up to quite a significant degree, even compared to the absolute lunacy that is other Antediluvians. I believe they'd upscale heavily, if not outright be on a different scale from their non-Lilithpilled (lol) siblings. Keep in mind that Caine was able to inflict lasting and irrevocable curses upon the core clan progenitor Antediluvians by pretty much just canceling them on the vitae telepathic network, and they were completely helpless to do anything about it.

Caine's ability to just negate anything is one of his known abilities, it's supposedly comes from the Original Path of Blood, rather than him simply willing something to stop with sheer power.

As for the boost from Lilith's blood, there's just no quantification for it, and in the example we are given for the Blood's effects, it doesn't say that it makes you more powerful, just that it could give you abilities, which are up to the Storyteller's decision.

I'm not really into speculating or applying a arbitrary % boost to any of them to upscale Caine because there's nothing to back it up besides a Doyalist (Out of story/exegetic) view that they should be X powerful based on an idea of empowerment in the lens of the current system, which are themselves arbitrary, since we could say that the System ranks only Male characters to be powerful and Female characters have no power. This in terms of validity in application, in that it is a system/view we could use, it's sound and would hold the same amount of water as the current one does from a Doyalist view, since no matter which view is held, the story is always the same.

Iirc he can also kill Lilith in a straight fight

He can't, in the section for the Seven-Fold curse, the Writer specifically lays out that the Storyteller should take the Seven-Fold curse as true and have it be the reason why Lilith hasn't just killed Caine.

Unless you can think of a good reason not to include this curse in your story, we recommend using it, as it makes the question of what the characters (the players' and Storyteller's alike) do in this scenario that much more complex.

Lilith certainly knows about it, and as a result, she's not about to be the one to deliver the killing blow to Caine - she'll avoid touching him at all if she can. The main reason she's been gathering her children together is to throw at Caine all at once, and most of the Apostates are loyal enough to her (or hate Caine enough) that they'd be willing to kill him for her also. - Time of Judgement - Gehenna, pg. 118

 

[Sir_sun_man]

I mean that can still be seen through a different lense of lilith still not exactly wanting to confront him but being able to yet still chosing not to at all since not only will the seven fold strike her but caine himself is a threat

I personally think just giving caine a "at least 5-B to low-2C possibly 1-A/high 1-A (not to sure where lilith stands in the new scale)