The Dovahkiin vs Morgoth

[MasterOfArda]

Here is Dagor Dagorath in full:

Thus spoke Mandos in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor and the rumour of his word was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers have grown weary, Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of the Night out of the Timeless Void; and all shall be darkness, for the sun he will turn to black, and the moon will no longer shed his light.. But the Host of Valinor shall descend upon him as a searing flame, white and terrible. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönw├½, and on his left T├║rin Turambar, son of H├║rin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of T├║rin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the Children of H├║rin and all fallen Men be avenged. Thereafter shall the Earth be broken and remade, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for F├½anor shall surrender them willingly. Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Valar will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Il├║vatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save T├║rin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

Nowhere does it say he will recover his Full Power, though it is stated he will recover some of his power in Morgoth's Ring.

 

[The_Archdemon]

It's obviously up to interpretation, like most of Tolkien's work. Also DD is not exactly canon.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I agree its cannonicity is very up in the air

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Snips

Thank you. Then again, Melkor like to underestimate his foes, right? Especially when he is fighting, in his view, a completely normal human. Also, Dovahkiin have passive empathic manipulation (from Masque of Clavicus Vile). So that maybe can persuade Melkor to not destroy the universe.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Then again, Melkor like to underestimate his foes, right?

I don't know where this came from. Underestimating foes is a common trait in villian, but I have never heard Morgoth to do it.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

In Morgoth's profile, it's stated that he likes to underestimate his foes. Though his low 2-C key doesn't seem to have this weakness for some reason.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Huh. I don't think that should be there.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Huh. I don't think that should be there.

So what do you think about Dovahkiin's passive empathic manipulation? Maybe it can persuade Morgoth to not deatroy the universe.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Huh. I don't think that should be there.

So what do you think about Dovahkiin's passive empathic manipulation? Maybe it can persuade Morgoth to not deatroy the universe.

Morgoth also has empathetic manipulation. If the Dovahkiin's works on Morgoth, Morgoth's could probably affect him.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

So what do you think about Dovahkiin's passive empathic manipulation? Maybe it can persuade Morgoth to not deatroy the universe.

Morgoth also has empathetic manipulation. If the Dovahkiin's works on Morgoth, Morgoth's could probably affect him.

Doesn't resistance to mind manipulation also include resistance to empathic manipulation? Also, the most powerful enemies in Skyrim are able to resist the effect of master level illusion spells (which include empathic manipulation spell, like calm, courage, and fear) through pure will. By scaling, the Dovahkiin should be able to resist these same master level spells. The Dovahkiin can also just use calm or courage spell on himself in response to sorrow.

 

[Saga89]

Point is, even if it were to work, the Dovahkiin would still need to incapacitate his enemy before Morgoth destroy the universe or the world where they are fighting.

Under this particular point of view, Morgoth is very much unlike every opponent the Dovahkiin had faced: while Alduin and Miraak didn't want to destroy the universe/world, this is Morgoth's "war-goal" and went straight for it at every chance (even as a high 3-A he still went and destroyed the world by felling the Two Lamps).

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Point is, even if it were to work, the Dovahkiin would still need to incapacitate his enemy before Morgoth destroy the universe or the world where they are fighting.

Under this particular point of view, Morgoth is very much unlike every opponent the Dovahkiin had faced: while Alduin and Miraak didn't want to destroy the universe/world, this is Morgoth's "war-goal" and went straight for it at every chance (even as a high 3-A he still went and destroyed the world by felling the Two Lamps).

I mean, the Masque of Clavicus Vile grant passive (meaning it's always active) empathic manipulation, which if it works, would completely convince Morgoth to not destroy the universe and is faster than Morgoth's universe-busting shenanigan.

 

[Saga89]

The masque fortify the Dovahkiin, it does not affect others. And the dragonborn may appear as glorious and almighty as he wants but Morgoth would still try to fight him:

"Then Melkor saw what was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful, and that the Earth was becoming as a garden for their delight, for its turmoils were subdued. His envy grew then the greater within him;"


EDIT: it just dawned to me, the Dovahkiin may be able to effect Morgoth with conceptual manipulation, but Morgoth could just destroy the concepts of Thu'um and magic.

 

[The_Archdemon]

lol I really got lost here.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

The masque fortify the Dovahkiin, it does not affect others. And the dragonborn may appear as glorious and almighty as he wants but Morgoth would still try to fight him:

"Then Melkor saw what was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful, and that the Earth was becoming as a garden for their delight, for its turmoils were subdued. His envy grew then the greater within him;"


EDIT: it just dawned to me, the Dovahkiin may be able to effect Morgoth with conceptual manipulation, but Morgoth could just destroy the concepts of Thu'um and magic.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Masque_of_Clavicus_Vile Clearly stated that the Masque makes everyone admire and respect you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Masque_of_Clavicus_Vile

The story about how the Masque of Clavicus Vile manipulate people's admiration and respect and makes people like you.

Melkor doesn't respect nor admire the Valar. In fact, i'm pretty sure he doesn't respect and admire anyone.

 

[Saga89]

Those are paraphrases and are taken from an unofficial source, while the in-game book "Tamrielic Artifacts" states:

"Ever the vain one, Clavicus Vile made a masque suited to his own personality. The bearer of the Masque is more likely to get a positive response from the people of Tamriel. The higher his personality, the larger the bonus."

So it's a passive that works on the bear depending on his own personality/speechcraft that in turn may or may not be "large" enough to influence others. And so, still the Dovahkiin would need to have time to talk.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Those are paraphrases and are taken from an unofficial source, while the in-game book "Tamrielic Artifacts" states:

"Ever the vain one, Clavicus Vile made a masque suited to his own personality. The bearer of the Masque is more likely to get a positive response from the people of Tamriel. The higher his personality, the larger the bonus."

So it's a passive that works on the bear depending on his own personality/speechcraft that in turn may or may not be "large" enough to influence others. And so, still the Dovahkiin would need to have time to talk.

In the next paragraph, it tells the story of a woman who all of the sudden receive everyone's admiration and respect, she didn't need to talk to them first, she literally just got everyone's admiration and respect so it should be, to a certain extent, affect other people. Of course someone with higher personality would benefit more from the artifacts, but that doesn't mean it only fortify your personality and doesn't affect other people. A world saver will obviously find the artifact more useful than a common peasant.

 

[Saga89]

That story only shows Avalea had a large enough personality to be able influence other nobles while wearing the mask.

Also, Avalea wasn't a peasant: "[...] Avalea, a noblewoman of some renown. As a young girl, she was grossly disfigured by a spiteful servant."

Of course someone with higher personality would benefit more from the artifacts, but that doesn't mean it only fortify your personality and doesn't affect other people.

Except it is a fortify effect in every game and not a mind-affecting spell emanating from the Dovahkiin.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

That story only shows Avalea had a large enough personality to be able influence other nobles while wearing the mask.

Also, Avalea wasn't a peasant: "[...] Avalea, a noblewoman of some renown. As a young girl, she was grossly disfigured by a spiteful servant."

Except it is a fortify effect in every game and not a mind-affecting spell emanating from the Dovahkiin.

You mean the same girl who literally got casted out the moment she lost the Masque while still pregnant? Doesn't seem like a big personality to me.

Having passive ability that allow you to make everyone stop attacking you is too OP for the games. Again, the games are not a great presentation of TES universe. Even the writer of Infernal City stated that the games are merely a representation of the TES universe. And no, i'm not saying that you can't use game mechanic, i'm saying that in the instance where lore and gameplay contradict each other, you need to use the lore.

Dovahkiin still have other though-based fear manipulation, Battle Cry which is faster than talking.

He also can just use Mora's grasp, which is again, faster than talking and then BFR Melkor by using the Black Books.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

You know what, i'm going to concede this point to you, because i believe you have the more sound argument.

But the Dovahkiin still have other though-based empathic manipulation, for example, Voice of the Emperor, which would calm down Morgoth. He also still has other ways that i already described above.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

EDIT: it just dawned to me, the Dovahkiin may be able to effect Morgoth with conceptual manipulation, but Morgoth could just destroy the concepts of Thu'um and magic.

Morgoth wouldn't be able to destroy the Concept of Magic, though, since in TES, Magic is a fundamental, primal idea that permeates throughout the entirety of the Aurbis and prevents it from collapsing into Nothingness.

To put into perspective here, Concepts in the Tolkien Legendarium seem to be part of the Ainulindale, and were created through it, but in The Elder Scrolls, the Concepts of Space, Time and Magic are what stabilize the underlying Song of Creation in the first place, and without them all of the Aurbis is utter cacophony without any shape or order whatsoever.

So, yeah, I don't think Morgoth will be capable of destroying the concept of Magic or anything of the sort here.

 

[MasterOfArda]

@Ultima Reality

That makes sense. But there is still the issue of whether the Dovahkiin could actually defeat Morgoth, which I think was agreed above that Morgoth is at the very least moderately more powerful in sheer destructive ability.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Bend Will.

 

[Saga89]

Bend Will.

We have already discussed that. Morover, should it really be able to affect Morgoth, it still leaves open the question if the Dovahkiin can shout it faster than Morgoth destroying the world/universe.

I still think this is an inconclusive match.

@Ultima Reality Wait, I tought magic was the exploitation of rules left unifinished when Magnus fled or whatever power Magnus left behind him.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Discussed what?

And that's irrelevant both are Immeasurable speed and I don't see why that matters anyway.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We have already discussed that. Morover, should it really be able to affect Morgoth, it still leaves open the question if the Dovahkiin can shout it faster than Morgoth destroying the world/universe.
I still think this is an inconclusive match.

@Ultima Reality Wait, I tought magic was the exploitation of rules left unifinished when Magnus fled or whatever power Magnus left behind him.

Not really, it is an all-encompassing force which sustains the whole Aurbis, the games themselves point out that Magic as a force isn't limited to Mundus, as Magnus was not bound into the Mortal Plane by Lorkhan's Trickery, and thus the force that has its source on him is free to pervade across all of existence.

In fact, Battlespire goes as far as stating that the destinies of all Realms, both Mortal and Immortal, are shaped by, and fully dependent on the ebb and flow of Magicka.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Also

Auri-El/Akatosh needs to be linear in order to be sane? Eru Iluvatar needs not, and cares not, he is the Secret Flame that can be found everywhere and nowhere at the same time, moved by nothing but its own will.

That's blatantly wrong. Aka is in no way dependent on Linear Time, which is in fact embodied by a God of far lesser scale than him. The thing about his "Madness" is that he is the very concept of Time, whose nature within the greater scope of the Aurbis is completely fractured, fluid and non-linear, and incomprehensible to mortal minds, and because of that, Aka is viewed as "insane", something which is obviously not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

We have already discussed that. Morover, should it really be able to affect Morgoth, it still leaves open the question if the Dovahkiin can shout it faster than Morgoth destroying the world/universe.

I still think this is an inconclusive match.

@Ultima Reality Wait, I tought magic was the exploitation of rules left unifinished when Magnus fled or whatever power Magnus left behind him.

Dovahkiin still have other though-based empathic manipulation like Voice of the Emperor and Battle Cry. Not to mention Mora's Grasp and Black Books BFR ability.

 

[Saga89]

@Waria & Ogbuna: the problem with your reasoning is you seems to assume Morgoth will stand still and allow the Dovahkiin to make his move unopposed. As speed is unmeasurable for both contestants, the Dovahkiin may be able to enspel Morgoth or BFR him, if such things are possible (I say they may be, MasterOfArda says they are not), but still ends up simultaneously dying with the destruction of the universe/world.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

@Waria & Ogbuna: the problem with your reasoning is you seems to assume Morgoth will stand still and allow the Dovahkiin to make his move unopposed. As speed is unmeasurable for both contestants, the Dovahkiin may be able to enspel Morgoth or BFR him, if such things are possible (I say they may be, MasterOfArda says they are not), but still ends up simultaneously dying with the destruction of the universe/world.

Except that they are thought-based, which is again, faster than speaking which is what Morgoth's starting move is and he has no idea that these abilities exist. Dovahkiin have a lot of thought-based attack that can stop Morgoth before he destroy the universe (paralyze stone ability and Mora's Grasp) or convince him out of the fight (Voice of the Emperor)

 

[TacticalNuke002]

He can just go to Apocrypha if need be. The destruction of the universe is not that great an issue.

 

[Ogbunabali]

The destruction of the universe means absolutely nothing. The Dovahkiin isn't baseline High 3-A or Low 2-C he's very high up there.

And I'm not saying that Morgoth won't do anything it's just that the Dovahkiin using Bend Will on him before he does anything that could even hurt the Dovahkiin is much more plausible, considering the Dovahkiin resists most of the stuff Morgoth has.

 

[Saga89]

Doesn't the Dovahkiin need air to breath? Last time I checked the Dovahkiin still needed very specific spells to not drown in water. He may survive a direct attack but AFAIK he may not be able to survive when unable to sustain his physiology.

OK let's see this Apocrypha: I thinks many of the objection I made about Azura's Star may still be valid, but hey, at least we knew it successfully held Miraak. What was holding Miraak in there? If it were Hermaeus Mora, does he have a reason to confine Morgoth (which can easily move between different planes of existence)?

 

[Ogbunabali]

He has survived Oblivion and Aetherius. Not to mention he is a master Alteration mage, surviving without air isn't a problem at all. Bend Will ends this pretty quickly.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Snips

Even assuming that he can't breath in space, what's going to stop the Dovahkiin from completely stopping Morgoth in the middle of his action with thought-based empathic manipulation like Voice of the Emperor or paralyzation attack like Serpent Stone ability? Thought-based attacks are faster than speaking, which Morgoth need to do to destroy the universe. Even with same speed, certain actions are faster than others, and in this specific situation, the Dovahkiin can win just by activating his thought-based abilities. There are just too many ways for the Dovahkiin to win here. Don't know why this hasn't been added yet.

And good luck getting back to earth from Oblivion which requires low hyperversal range.

 

[Saga89]

I don't think MasterOfArda is correct when saying Morgoth required to speak: he did so when he had no body and was within the Timeless Hall (a void that would carry no sound), and again he had no body when he claimed Arda Unfinished; so the "music" and "Morgoth said" things should have been based on the Telepathy scaled from the Istari.

Said Telepathy also detects and protects from Mind Manipulation, which afaik also covers Empathic Manipulation unless carried out by meanings different than the usuals.

Should anything affect Morgoth's body like Voice of the Epperor (isn't that a Mind Manipulation effect though? see above) he can easily abandon his fana and craft a new one.

Iirc, the Dovahkiin had only entered those planes Oblivion claimed by a Daedric Prince which mimic most characteristics of Mundus. Also, when did the Dovahkiin entered Aetherius? I take you mean Sovngarde but it's more logical to assume Sovngarde as part of Mundus given 1) it should be tied to Lorkhan, and 2) it shows the constellations and signs of Mundus (the screenshot shows the Warrior constellation as seen in Sovngarde, which is different from what you see from Nirn but still is the same constellation)

And I'm not saying Morgoth can survive this

match (or return from Oblivion) while the Dovahkiin can't, I'm saying both have roughly the same probability of dying.


About speed, you two are saying opposite things:

And that's irrelevant both are Immeasurable speed and I don't see why that matters anyway.

Waria Kambang wrote:
Even with same speed, certain actions are faster than others


EDIT: I think we should each write a resume of our views: Dovahkiin victorious (Ogbuna and Waria), Morgoth victorious (MasterOfArda) and Inconclusive match (me) and then contact the users to confirm their vote. However, it may take me some time to write said post, I will be under exam period in 5 days.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Snips

I can't say anything about your claim because i don't know enough about LotR, but in fiction, spirits had shown an ability to talk even without physical body. Can you give me the text that describe Morgoth's act of destroying the universe? But even if Morgoth destroy the universe, Dovahkiin is a master of alteration magic which has been known as a school of magic that change the fundamental of biology. So i don't see why it would matter anyway.

Sovngarde is part of Aetherius though. The only reason why the Dovahkiin have high hyperversal range in his profile is because of his Call of Valor shout, which allow him to summon heroes from Sovngarde. Not to mention other evidences.

I don't how it's relevant. The fact still stand that certain actions are faster than others even if both parties have the same speed (attack that require hand motion will be slower than another attack that only require thinking).

 

[Ogbunabali]

Telepathy doesn't protect you from Mind Manipulation, especially not one as powerful as Bend Will.

And I said even besides that the Dovahkiin is a master Alteration wizard, can deal with no air.

Immeasurable speed makes every action instantaneous so Waria is wrong on that part.

There's no need to confirm the votes since Bend Will ends this before Morgoth can do anything significant to the Dovahkiin. The win condition is still valid.

 

[Saga89]

from Morgoth's profile

etc etc

So speed is still a problem. Also the Breathing Water book support that water breathing spells act like a philter to gain oxigen from water in the same way as fishes, which is a different thing entirely from surviving in a vacuum.


Ok, so to recap things that have already been said about Bend Will up until the discussion digressed to the Staff of Magnus:

Bend Will doesn't affect undead (it only dazes them), so it's not omnipotent. If it does not uffect undead because of them lacking a soul, then it doesn't affect Morgotoh because, an an ealar, he doesn't have a soul. If it doesn't work on undead because they are animated by magic, than the Dovahkiin's conceptual magic has limits when pitted against magic (whether be it common magic or Conceptual Manipulation since Morgoth has access to both). If it doesn't affect undead for another reason we need to know what this reason is before declaring it can work on Morgoth.

The third word is one that amplify the power of the shout. Given how Bend Will third word is Drago it may also be interpreted that would not affect anything above the level of said dragons (iirc this was brought up by MasterOfArda). And before you point out that Bend Will affect even rocks, it can also be seen as a progression: things without will -> animal and weak willed people -> strong willed creatures up to dragons. Last, Earth may also indicates the shouts affects all those of Mundus or copying its workings (like lesser daedra taking a physical body) and Morgoth is neither.

 

[Ogbunabali]

And the school of Alteration makes the user transmute your body into anything you want, it's not limited to breathing underwater. The same way you literally turn your flesh to oak with oakflesh. And speed isn't a problem.

It doesn't affect undead because undead are just bodies without a mind. It's literally conceptual mind hax, and there is absolutely no reason to assume it doesn't affect Morgoth.