The Battle of Gods

[DragonEmperor23]

The point of them being able to hit Zamasu is to show that they can affect a being made of space time, not that they could damage him.

Like, if you punch a ghost and do no damage, you still get NPI because you were able to touch the ghost, you just couldn't hurt it.

 

[Sera_EX]

Again, it physically interacting with him means nothing. It's not like they hit him in the future and he showed signs of being affected in the present.

 

[BlackeJan]

Well either way, Goku and Frieza survived a hakai and Base Goku and Vegeta were taking hits from Jiren as well

 

[BlackeJan]

Not only that but Hit was able to (at least) put a dent in Jiren so there's that too

 

[Akreious]

Again, it physically interacting with him means nothing. It's not like they hit him in the future and he showed signs of being affected in the present.

Infinite Zamasu is literally a Non-Corporeal Space-Time Entity. What even are you talking about? To hit him, they need to affect Space-Time.

PIS, if not an outlier.

Only PIS or an Outlier if they were 3-A at that point. It clearly implies Low 2-C and Low 2-C as awhole is consistent since they never refer to blowing up or Erasing Infinite Zamasu as "Destroy the Timeline", it's still considered a Universal (Or Multi-Universal) feat.

Again Sera, your statement only makes sense if they were 3-A which is only implied once with a single statement compared to Low 2-C with many, many implications of such.

Sera, there's significantly more evidence to say Low 2-C rather than 3-A. You're dismissing a whole bunch of Low 2-C implications and statements in favour of a single 3-A Statement.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Why are we even debating the whole sURVIVING argument? The main focus is the reams of the Kai, something the still needs to be properly addressed without head canon or just saying "no".

 

[Sera_EX]

Infinite Zamasu is literally a Non-Corporeal Space-Time Entity. What even are you talking about? To hit him, they need to affect Space-Time.

No they don't. Attack Potency is described as the ability create or destroy something, significantly effect something, or harm something with that level of durability.

Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks did not:

>Create Infinite Zamasu

>Destroy Infinite Zamasu

>Significantly affect Infinite Zamasu, or

>Hurt Infinite Zamasu who has Low 2-C dura as non-corporeal entity.

 

[Akreious]

Not to sound like a broken record but I still see no refutes about Goku and Beerus destroying the entire Universe, including the entire Afterlife and the souls within it. As we see in the Arale episode, physical strikes and attacks cannot harm ghosts. Unless we give Goku Non-Physical Interaction (We won't), the only possible way for this to make sense is if Goku is Low 2-C or the waves are somehow affecting Space-Time without Goku actually being Low 2-C which assumes a whole lot more than what's shown.

Infinite Zamasu is literally a Non-Corporeal Space-Time Entity. What even are you talking about? To hit him, they need to affect Space-Time.
No they don't. Attack Potency is described as the ability create or destroy something, significantly effect something, or harm something with that level of durability.

Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks did not:

>Create Infinite Zamasu

>Destroy Infinite Zamasu

>Significantly affect Infinite Zamasu, or

>Hurt Infinite Zamasu who has Low 2-C dura as non-corporeal entity.

Hence why the Goku implication thing was even brought up. If SSB Goku is able to even somewhat harm Infinite Zamasu, he's Low 2-C Period. That's the implication of the scans posted above.

This makes sense with the scaling as well since Goku a few arcs prior was only able to destroy U7 while Infinite Zamasu fused with all 12 Universes; he's simply higher on the pecking order.

 

[Sera_EX]

Not to sound like a broken record but I still see no refutes about Goku and Beerus destroying the entire Universe

I'm getting to that, actually.

 

[Akreious]

You're going to explain how purely physical 3-A destruction that's shown to be unable to affect souls is going to destroy souls?

 

[Master_Xar]

I didn't say they didn't hit him, but if an attack hits something and it shows no signs of damage, how does it scale?

Well Zamasu was constantly growing as higher-dimensional space-time existence and they were in forms even weaker than the regular Immortal Zamasu and exhausted, and with the upgrade in BOG they'd already be low-2-C Zamasu is just obviously stronger than them at this point in the story by disadvantage.

Main argument in BOG this is only furthering evidence of Space-time interaction be applicable to them in any form

 

[Yumi-tan]

The sacred world of the Kais is not universe sized. What that have to do with Low 2-C?

 

[Akreious]

Also I don't think this was answered, but why isn't Infinite Zamasu straight 2-C? Zen'o is 2-C for destroying the entire Dragon Ball Multiverse - Zamasu fused with all of it. It's why Zen'o erased all of it in the first place.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Also I don't think this was answered, but why isn't Infinite Zamasu straight 2-C? Zen'o is 2-C for destroying the entire Dragon Ball Multiverse - Zamasu fused with all of it. It's why Zen'o erased all of it in the first place.

Because that is headcanon. Infinite Zamasu was only stated to have fused with Universe 7.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

He was only going to merge with other timelines over time; not all at once.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The sacred world of the Kais is not universe sized. What that have to do with Low 2-C?

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3556639#183

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3556639#185

 

[ProudLearner]

@LordTracer

You should include the votes of users that disagree with the changes.

More evidence that was overlook:

From Old Kaioshin:




Old Kai was worried that it would of destroy all of Universe 7 including the Kaioshin Realm which are separated from the afterlife. He even said "Gods like us".

Base Goku, Base Vegeta, and SSJ Trunks did try to harm Infinite Zamasu but it did not work. Moreover, Goku wanted to try SSJBlue because "possibly" it could of done some damage. Here

Lastly, I vote inconclusive because it can make the scaling worse or better.

 

[Akreious]

"Lastly, I vote inconclusive because it can make the scaling worse or better. "

How would it make it worse? All this would do is make the Low 2-C chain start at BoG and it'd just go up from there.

 

[AwkguyDB]

"Lastly, I vote inconclusive because it can make the scaling worse or better. "
How would it make it worse? All this would do is make the Low 2-C chain start at BoG and it'd just go up from there.

I was wondering that myself XD

 

[Ted_Ed]

"Gods like us" pretty nuch proves that the old kai was sure that thry were also gonna die.

 

[ProudLearner]

"Lastly, I vote inconclusive because it can make the scaling worse or better. "
How would it make it worse? All this would do is make the Low 2-C chain start at BoG and it'd just go up from there.

Well..

For starters it will make Hit, Android 17, SSJ Rose Goku Black, SSJ Rage Trunks and his other forms, Fusion Zamasu, Blue Vegito, Base Goku and Vegeta, (Resurrection F Key) Golden Frieza, Skinny Buu, Copy Blue Vegeta, Base Broly, Anilaza, and Kefla to Low-2C.

I may be missing some, I think..

This can have a huge impact on the scaling (Which will make the TOP and previous arc difficult to scale) which will result in having multiple CRTs discussing the scaling chain.

Essentially, any character that scale to SSG God Goku 3-A will get Low-2C if these upgrades go through.

If any expert in this wiki can come up with the scaling chain with the upgrades applied also without nitpicking then I will change my vote in favor of option 3. Otherwise, this upgrade can have a disastrous result.

Additionaly, I would not mind 3-A, Possibly Low-2C

 

[Ted_Ed]

3-A, Possibly Low-2C

Seems reasonnable to me.

 

[LordTracer]

"For starters it will make Hit, Android 17, SSJ Rose Goku Black, SSJ Rage Trunks and his other forms, Fusion Zamasu, Blue Vegito, Base Goku and Vegeta, (Resurrection F Key) Golden Frieza, Skinny Buu, Copy Blue Vegeta, Base Broly, Anilaza, and Kefla to Low-2C."

> This is a problem... how, exactly? Also Slim Buu only scales to suppressed Goku, so he wouldn't be scaling to this at all.

 

[Ted_Ed]

Low 2-C is reasonable imo

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

But like Ant said, the fact they're 3-A until now is because lots of staffs insisted it be this way.

So to get them to Low 2-C, comparable numbers of agreeing Knowledgeable staffs are needed.

But most are not likely to come though.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

3-A, possibly Low 2-C makes sense IMO.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that Sera makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, thank you for keeping this discussion polite and respectful. The staff are a lot more likely to help you out if you keep things that way.

 

[Sera_EX]

This is a problem... how, exactly?

Because half those characters have no feats of their own. Powerscaling should not be abused. Statements should not be abused. When this happens it creates inflation. The result? Exaggerated stats.

 

[Sera_EX]

Bare in mind that Dragon Ball is not the only verse with this problem. Many of them have these issues. All will be dealt with in due time.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Sera.

Should I close this thread then?

 

[Ted_Ed]

No, most agree with the upgrade and this "problem" does not contradict the points presented here.

 

[Sera_EX]

We should wait a bit to see if Dragon (the admin) will respond here.

 

[LordTracer]

This is a problem... how, exactly?

Because half those characters have no feats of their own. Powerscaling should not be abused. Statements should not be abused. When this happens it creates inflation. The result? Exaggerated stats.

How is it an abuse of powerscaling or exaggerated when it's what's shown in the series... all of those characters (Except Slim Buu) are shown to be superior to SSG Goku, some of which to a massive degree (Aniraza, Kefla, Rosé Black, Rage Trunks, etc.), the series itself puts them at that level.

 

[Sera_EX]

Because that's not how powerscaling works. There are characters clearly superior to SSG Goku who clearly would scale. But those aren't the only characters. What about Gohan? Android 17? Everyone who is currently 3-A would be boosted to Low 2-C because everyone that's 3-A scales to that one feat.

 

[Sera_EX]

No, most agree with the upgrade and this "problem" does not contradict the points presented here.

Once again, I'm getting to that (though I'm trying to prevent having to write enite essays here). Please be patient.

 

[LordTracer]

Because that's not how powerscaling works. There are characters clearly superior to SSG Goku who clearly would scale. But those aren't the only characters. What about Gohan? Android 17? Everyone who is currently 3-A would be boosted to Low 2-C because everyone that's 3-A scales to that one feat.

They are also superior to SSG Goku, so... Gohan is relative to Super Saiyan Blue Goku and 17 is as well, and even showed feats even beyond that level.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I am In agreement with Sera here

 

[DragonEmperor23]

This is a problem... how, exactly?

Because half those characters have no feats of their own. Powerscaling should not be abused. Statements should not be abused. When this happens it creates inflation. The result? Exaggerated stats.

"Because that's not how powerscaling works. There are characters clearly superior to SSG Goku who clearly would scale. But those aren't the only characters. What about Gohan? Android 17? Everyone who is currently 3-A would be boosted to Low 2-C because everyone that's 3-A scales to that one feat."

I don't see the problem about this. Everyone that's High 5-A to Low 4-C in DBZ is just upscaling from Frieza's planet bust with no other feats within those tier happening for the characters that do scale. If someone found a problem with that calc and the results changed, then all of these characters would have their tiers changed. Gohan was able to fight Goku before the ToP who is stronger than the Goku that made the feat, so he scaled to the feat. The scaling doesn't change because it's Low 2-C now instead of 3-A. Gohan never had any statements about busting a physical universe or a one and its space-time. How is this inflation or exaggerated stats?

 

[Sera_EX]

@LordTracer

Since others seem to be getting impatient since the actual core points of the upgrade haven't been fully addressed yet, I think we should continuing talking about powerscaling at later time. For now, I'll address the "entire universe" issue.