The Battle of Gods

[Zamasu_Chan]

Beerus' power being retconned and the fact that Beerus casually fighting Champa in a mere scuffle was showing significantly greater results if we go by Vados' statement. Unless you're going to assume he was using all of his strength against Champa (not far fetched but still very weird when you think about it).

I see what you mean but isn't that kinda an AOE fallacy?

 

[LordTracer]

Fiction usually doesn't work that conveniently and consistently, especially not in accordance with our tiers.

Is there really anything saying that it wouldn't work like that in this scenario? Especially when Low 2-C is pretty consistent for these characters.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Infinite Zamasu is just the regular Zamasu who had immortality. Even the statements stated there wasn't a hint of Goku Black left when IZ was introduced. Plus there was never a statement that Merged Zamasu was weaker than IZ... which Goku's statement of being able to take him on after getting a senzu sort of heavily implies.

 

[Sera_EX]

Not at all, I'm saying Beerus' power was retconned. Beerus apparently trading minor blows with Champa is apparently > Beerus fighting an actual battle with SSG Goku. The former has a 2-C statement and the latter has a (currently) 3-A statement.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think it's safe to scale the pre tournament of power Goku to Infinite Zamasu. Jiren and the GoD sure are above Infinite Zamasu, but no one else. And they also don't scale in speed or anything like that. Zeno's attack was AoE rather than speed.

 

[LordTracer]

Not at all, I'm saying Beerus' power was retconned. Beerus apparently trading minor blows with Champa is apparently > Beerus fighting an actual battle with SSG Goku. The former has a 2-C statement and the latter has a (currently) 3-A statement.

Is that really a retcon when Beerus was stated to be suppressed during his fight with Goku?

 

[Sera_EX]

@Seed

So you're arguing that Merged Zamasu is Low 2-C? Because Zamasu's Will is an incorporeal existence that is currently accepted to have a universal+ feat. This is why people argue Zamasu's Will is not Low 2-C, but Low 2-C via hax or range, because as you said nothing implies Zamasu's Will > Merged Zamasu in actual strength.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

... I will only say it's a possibility to be considered. Also while his hax is notable becoming one with the universe is an AP feat not just hax based.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm pretty sure only the Infinite Zamasu form is Low 2-C, as even merged Zamasu (Future Zamasu + Goku Black) is just a fragment of Infintie Zamasu.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Uhh... Where did you even get that implication from ? That was never even remotely implied. I can get the scans but Infinote Zamasu isn't Giygas or something... It's just Zamasu who survived Vegito's attack via immortality and began leaking his ki across the universe.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Dark649 did compare him to someone like Giygas, and statements about becoming the law and order itself and even beginning to merge with other timelines seems to indicate this stuff. And it was Trunks who bisected Merged Zamasu, not Vegito. And actually, it did say something about his power growing endlessly.

 

[Dragomer]

Yeah but that's just something Zamasu's immortality is using to replace his body, it didn't actualy boost his power or anything, Goku, Trunks and Vegeta would have been dead otherwise and Goku would have been lampshaded as delusional when he said he could do something with a senzu bean (like seriously, how would they match an attack technicaly infintely above Merged Zamasu and survive another while wounded and dead tired when they couldn't dream of doing that against a full power blast from Merged Zamasu ?)

Also i don't see how DB is rated liberaly here given that Buu is considered multi solar systeme level and it took a lot of arguing just to get 3-A (i still don't get the point of that tier, no one think 'except space-time' when talking about destroying a universe, time can't even exist without space and arguably matter) from SSJG Goku's feat despite being recognized as a very clear feat.

 

[Akreious]

How does the above discussion change the fact that 3-A destruction should not be able to destroy all the souls in the Afterlife as well as the fact that Goku is implied to have been able to do something if he had a Senzu against Infinite Zamasu?

 

[Ted_Ed]

I agree.

 

[Sera_EX]

Goku is implied to have been able to do something if he had a Senzu against Infinite Zamasu?

Let's be honest:











Goku is more likely referring to him being able to go SSB and be fully restored to have a chance of doing anything whatsoever. Goku did not say anything that directly implied he'd necessarily be capable of beating or doing anything significant to Zamasu if he had a senzu. He doesn't know. Goku's motto is "I don't know if I don't try". Plus even if he's completely outclassed, he'll still try and fight.

 

[Pritti]

I agree with Sera.

If a featherweight who never fought a heavyweight fighter before and was injured or exhausted when they fought the heavyweight, said that they wished they had got some rest before the battle after their blows weren't even tickling the heavy guy, does that mean that person is implying they'd KO him if they got rest? Of course not. They're more so saying if they had rest they'd at least not have the disadvantage of being exhausted.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Oh, that makes sense. They still survived multiple attacks from IZ tho

 

[Sera_EX]

PIS, if not an outlier.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I agree with Option 3 for Low 2-C BoG. There is very little evidence or argument against it from what I can see and much going for it in exchange.

 

[BlackeJan]

Naw. If they having been takin his attacks MULTIPLE times then it can't be PIS or outlier

 

[LordTracer]

Well Frieza and base Goku in the next saga survived Sidra's Hakai, so more examples of them surviving Low 2-C attacks. Also base Goku and base Vegeta survived several attacks from Jiren during the ToP.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Even then we still need a detailed explanation of why the realm of the Kai would still be 3-A and why it's different from the other universes without a head canon explanation.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Not to mention one of the reasons Golden Frieza is Low 2-C during the Broly movie is because he survived against SSJ Broly for an hour

 

[CryoTheMayo]

ToP is hard to scale due to the no-kill rule. I'd suggest only instances of characters implying they were trying to defeat or destroy other characters to be the only valid scaling.

For example:

• Toppo being shocked that Frieza survived his Hakai, which warped the World of Void

• Toppo trying to actively overwhelm Vegeta and failing to do so

• Jiren trying and failing to defeat UI Goku and then Golden Frieza (after Goku weakened him)

As for Goku surviving Hakai? That's extremely difficult to discern. We know he was resisting it enough to not be erased but we don't actually know how much power he was using. Beyond God exists after all and is explained as using the power of SSG without transforming into one.

Thus, I imagine that feat can be attributed to SSG Goku's power rather than Base Goku's power.

 

[Ionliosite]

Is that really a retcon when Beerus was stated to be suppressed during his fight with Goku?

Beerus' power has been retconned so many times, he literally should have needed to supress himself into less than 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 of his power for SSJG Goku to not be one-shot.

 

[LordTracer]

Well, with the ToP, everyone was suppressed, so when base Goku and Vegeta survived those attacks from Jiren, they would have been suppressed as well. @DBZMLP12345 makes a good point as well.

 

[Master_Xar]

And to point out again, Vegeta, Goku, and Trunks' attacks were able to connect with Infinite Zamasu to a degree and they survived multiple attacks while exhausted alone, further evidence that power-wise he isn't that much, as IZ is only Immortal Zamasu's influence on the world with no trace of Black. Whis and Beerus we're barely sweating it when he came to the present.

 

[Sera_EX]

Naw. If they having been takin his attacks MULTIPLE times then it can't be PIS or outlier

Yes it can. It all happened in the same scene.

 

[Yumi-tan]

And to point out again, Vegeta, Goku, and Trunks' attacks were able to connect with Infinite Zamasu to a degree

Their attacks connecting doesn't mean they scale. Base form Frieza landed a kick on Jiren yet that doesn't scale. 17 was able to somewhat keep up with Jiren without being one shot and that didn't scale. There are many examples even outside Dragon Ball where characters don't scale simply because "attacks connected".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mr Satan survived punches from both Cell and Kid Buu are more examples.

 

[Master_Xar]

And to point out again, Vegeta, Goku, and Trunks' attacks were able to connect with Infinite Zamasu to a degree

Their attacks connecting doesn't mean they scale. Base form Frieza landed a kick on Jiren yet that doesn't scale. 17 was able to somewhat keep up with Jiren without being one shot and that didn't scale. There are many examples even outside Dragon Ball where characters don't scale simply because "attacks connected".

That's not what I mean, he had already merged with spacetime, if they were strictly 3-A and had no affect on space-time whatsoever they would not be able to even hit him

 

[Ted_Ed]

I agree with the upgrade

 

[LordTracer]

Mr Satan survived punches from both Cell and Kid Buu are more examples.

Those are clearly gags though. Base Goku and Vegeta surviving Jiren's punches aren't. Nor is Frieza surviving a Hakai from Sidra and Toppo.

 

[Ted_Ed]

AAlso using Mr.Satan, a damn comic relief chaaracter aas an argument is dumb

 

[BlackeJan]

Yes it can. It all happened in the same scene.

Are you talking about Fused Zamasu or IZ?

 

[Sera_EX]

That's not what I mean, he had already merged with spacetime, if they were strictly 3-A and had no affect on space-time whatsoever they would not be able to even hit him

Not true. They simply attacked the sky while Zamasu was laughing. They didn't hit him and then Zamasu showed to be affected in the present where Krillin and the kids were. They didn't affect space time.

Are you talking about Fused Zamasu or IZ?

IZ.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Sera they did hit him, it even had an impact on his body. I'll post it in a few.

 

[Sera_EX]

I didn't say they didn't hit him, but if an attack hits something and it shows no signs of damage, how does it scale?

 

[Sera_EX]

The attack hit and the sky showed a water drop effect while Zamasu was still smiling. That's nothing. Zeno erases Zamasu and Zamasu's face(s) showed signs of pain. That's damage.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I was talking about their attacks physically interacting with him in the first place, I didn't say it hurt him.