The Battle of Gods

[CryoTheMayo]

There was no evidence that time was being significantly affected. Affecting spatially disconnected realms do not result in a Low 2-C feat.

The argument is that it was effecting a realm that is disconnected from Universe 7 in terms of space and time. This is sensible to claim due to official maps indicating that the realm is outside of the entire spacetime globe of Universe 7.

There is also the fact that Otherworld is an entirely different spacetime within the macrocosm of Universe 7, indicating that it is possible for another divine realm (the Sacred World of Kais) to have a different spacetime to Universe 7 or Otherworld.

Overall, simply denying the evidence does not disprove the evidence. It is mere denial that achieves nothing.

 

[Pritti]

We don't know since Dragon Ball is science fantasy. The requirements for Low 2-C however are clear and affecting multiple spatially disconnected realms does not fulfill those requirements.

 

[Sera_EX]

Sort of like Non-Euclidean geometry.

 

[Andytrenom]

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but is one of the arguments here really that souls being destroyed would prove low 2-C destruction?

 

[GojiBoyForever]

We don't know since Dragon Ball is science fantasy. The requirements for Low 2-C however are clear and affecting multiple spatially disconnected realms does not fulfill those requirements.

Im sorry, I don't think Im understanding your point. Can you summarize it?

 

[Dragomer]

We don't know since Dragon Ball is science fantasy. The requirements for Low 2-C however are clear and affecting multiple spatially disconnected realms does not fulfill those requirements.

The requirement for low 2-C are clear, they are 'capable of destroying a universe-sized space-time continuum' and Goku and Beerus are destroying the universe, which is a space time continuum by nature, so what is left to decide is : are they destroying the matter of the universe, thus making the universe just an empty space time continuum, which is 3-A or destroying the space time continuum, leaving no universe at all, which is low 2-C ?

And to decide that we look at how the destruction goes and since the destruction also destroy a place not physicaly / spacialy connected, it rule out the purely physical destruction, leaving low 2-C, with them destroying the universe including the space time continuum.

Which is supported by the souls of the afterlife also being destroyed, despite having no physical existence and Goku lacking the ability to affect souls, once again ruling out physical destruction.

Also dragon ball being science fantasy is a moot point since the structure of the mortal universe is likened to both our universe and the star wars universe so we do know.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

We don't know since Dragon Ball is science fantasy. The requirements for Low 2-C however are clear and affecting multiple spatially disconnected realms does not fulfill those requirements.

We don't know since Dragon Ball is science fantasy.

That is still nothing more than denial with no contradiction provided to the argument at hand. You have changed nothing to this denial other than a label which means nothing.

Please provide evidence or contradiction that the World of Kais is outside of the Universe 7 macrocosm.

The requirements for Low 2-C however are clear

The argument is that the shockwaves were travelling beyond the 4-D constraints of Universe 7 to destroy a realm outside of the spacetime of Universe 7.

This isn't the complete argument either, considering there is still no evidence regarding the universe statements as being only matter. If anything, there is far more claim that it refers to the entire timeline of the universe.

and affecting multiple spatially disconnected realms

They aren't only spatially disconnected. The universe and otherworld are already confirmed to have a spacetime disconnect in the Universe 7 macrocosm. The World of Kais is outside of that entire macrocosm.

 

[Pritti]

Attack Potency is described as the ability create or destroy something, significantly effect something, or harm something with that level of durability. (Quoted from Sera)

Affecting multiple spatially disconnected realms is not significantly affecting the temporality that binds them. Therefore it is not a Low 2-C feat.

 

[Dragomer]

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but is one of the arguments here really that souls being destroyed would prove low 2-C destruction?

Pretty much, one of the argument is that since Goku lack the ability to destroy souls himself, the purely physical destruction of the univers (to which the afterlife isn't physicaly linked to to begin with) wouldn't be able to affect the souls while a low 2-C destruction would because physical or not, the souls are part of the space time continuum so if it get destroyed, they go bye-bye too.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Attack Potency is described as the ability create or destroy something, significantly effect something, or harm something with that level of durability. (Quoted from Sera)
Affecting multiple spatially disconnected realms is not significantly affecting the temporality that binds them. Therefore it is not a Low 2-C feat.

This isn't the argument for Low 2-C destruction though, it's exploring the mechanics and effects of said Low 2-C destruction. What is being argued is that the destruction was effecting other spacetimes entirely, including an entire realm outside of the macrocosm.

Logically speaking, wouldn't this equate to the shockwaves having 5-D range? They were, after all, effecting spacetime constructs outside of the macrocosm.

 

[Dragomer]

Attack Potency is described as the ability create or destroy something, significantly effect something, or harm something with that level of durability. (Quoted from Sera)
Affecting multiple spatially disconnected realms is not significantly affecting the temporality that binds them. Therefore it is not a Low 2-C feat.

Goku isn't just affecting them, they are getting destroyed and since it can't be a physical destruction, it's a space time destruction, which is low 2-C.

 

[Sera_EX]

The universe and otherworld are already confirmed to have a spacetime disconnect in the Universe 7 macrocosm.

This literally means that time flows differently there. There is no language used that refers to Universe 7 as a multi-dimensional time-space. We can't assume they are completely separate time-spaces.

 

[Andytrenom]

What statement confirmed that that disconnect?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, can I ask how exactly destroying an area that is spatially disconnected from the Main Universe suddenly a Low 2-C feat? Affecting multiple spatial areas that happen to be disconnected from each other by whatever means does not automatically translate to Attack Potency (which is prety much all about the size of the area one can affect, at such scales) and is just a feat of range at best. From what I've seen it is more like the Kaioshin Realm has weird properties in relation to U7 and the like, which is not what Tiering is about whatsoever.

I also haven't seen any evidence that the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm are separated space-times either. Time flowing differently in the former is completely irrelevant when it may not even flow universally in our own universe past a given point, the same applies to the laws of physics. It's fully possible that they are separated sections of a single cosmos, which, taking strict size into account rather than the way they are separated, would only measure up to a higher-end of 3-A.

Besides, weren't the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm stated in the Daizenshuu itself to be separated from the normal universe by a magical barrier? If so, then that's pretty damning if you all want to use it.

 

[Dragomer]

Yeah, i think a staff members told us that we could only discuss about option 3 so no 2-C discussion, only low 2-C

 

[Dragomer]

What statement confirmed that that disconnect?

Toriyama's maps of the dragon ball universe.

like here :

and here ; https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4656528ba270f488c11f8c1ff7becbcf.webp

Both were made by Toriyama himself.

(the kaioshin realm turn around the universe, that's why it's at two different place on the map)

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The universe and otherworld are already confirmed to have a spacetime disconnect in the Universe 7 macrocosm.
This literally means that time flows differently there. There is no language used that refers to Universe 7 as a multi-dimensional time-space. We can't assume they are completely separate time-spaces.

When did I state that? All I said is that the mortal universe has a spacetime disconnect with otherworld, which is functionally correct.

Goku himself states that time is different in Otherworld, and to my knowledge you can not physically travel to Otherworld. The most that has ever been done is Goku using a highly advanced technique to teleport himself to Otherworld, which isn't even remotely physical.

If you can not physically move from the universe to otherworld and if otherworld's time flow is completely different to the universe, then the claim that otherworld has a disconnected spacetime from the universe is reasonable.

 

[Sera_EX]

IIRC, the Daizenshuu also stated the realms of U7 are separated by a thin magical barrier, not time itself. I need to find my Chouzenshuu volumes and find where that was stated.

 

[Andytrenom]

"Goku himself states that time is different in Otherworld, and to my knowledge you can not physically travel to Otherworld"

Which statement are you referring to?

 

[Dragomer]

So, can I ask how exactly destroying an area that is spatially disconnected from the Main Universe suddenly a Low 2-C feat? Affecting multiple spatial areas that happen to be disconnected from each other by whatever means does not automatically translate to Attack Potency (which is prety much all about the size of the area one can affect, at such scales) and is just a feat of range at best. From what I've seen it is more like the Kaioshin Realm has weird properties in relation to U7 and the like, which is not what Tiering is about whatsoever.
I also haven't seen any evidence that the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm are separated space-times either. Time flowing differently in the former is completely irrelevant when it may not even flow universally in our own universe past a given point, the same applies to the laws of physics. It's fully possible that they are separated sections of a single cosmos, which, taking strict size into account rather than the way they are separated, would only measure up to a higher-end of 3-A.

Besides, weren't the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm stated in the Daizenshuu itself to be separated from the normal universe by a magical barrier? If so, then that's pretty damning if you all want to use it.

The thing in itself isn't low 2-C but it's a confirmation that they are destroying the space time continuum instead of just the matter, we know for sure the universe is getting destroyed so the only question is how and to answer that question we look at the souls's lack of physical existence and the Kaioshin realm's lack of physical / spatial connection to the universe, which rule out the matter / physical option AKA 3-A, leaving the low 2-C option as the one making the most sense, it's not a discussion of AP, it's a discussion of the nature of the destruction which decide if it was a 3-A feat or a low 2-C one.

See the maps i'v linked above, the Kaioshin realm IS seperated while the afterlife still support the low 2-C interpretation even if we say it's connected since it's about the souls rather than the after life itself.

first the daizenshuu say 'magical dimensional barrier' for the after life (at least the french translation does) and doesn't say that about the kaioshin realm and second we are using the maps done by Toriyama, they were published in the Daizenshuu but are valid regardless of the guide s themself.

 

[Dragomer]

IIRC, the Daizenshuu also stated the realms of U7 are separated by a thin magical barrier, not time itself. I need to find my Chouzenshuu volumes and find where that was stated.

It doesn't matter if they aren't seperated by time, just physicaly and spacialy and for the afterlife, it doesn't matter at all if it's connected at all since the argument is based on the souls rather than the nature of the afterlife.

And once again, i'm just using the maps regardless of the guides since they were made by Toriyama, there was big debate about the validity of the guides earlier in the thread so i avoid it so the thread doesn't get derailed.

 

[Sera_EX]

The map is irrelevant. Low 2-C means past, present, and future would be gone too. There's no evidence that the entire time-space was threatened. Zero evidence outside misinformation about how the tier system works.

 

[Roun12]

So the statements about the feat using terms like "the entire universe" and "turn the universe into a void" aren't Low 2-C because...?

 

[Dragomer]

The map is irrelevant. Low 2-C means past, present, and future would be gone too. There's no evidence that the entire time-space was threatened. Zero evidence outside misinformation about how the tier system works.

No.

'Universe level+: ("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline. Please take note that simple statements of transcending and/or overcoming space/time without any further elaboration is not enough to grant a Universe level+ rating. Such statements could be flowery language or at most simply refer to resistance to space-time manipulation.'

from the tiering page itself., there is no misinformation, no 'need to destroy the past and the future' specification and my argument 100% justify a low 2-C rating for the BOG feat instead for a 3-A interpretation that is quite clearly not supported anymore.

Accusing me of lying about the tiering systeme isn't cool.

 

[Sera_EX]

Turning the universe into a void was never Low 2-C. "Entire universe" doesn't help much either.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm going to disengage from the argument, but I would like to add that I am not arguing for 2-C SSG Goku when claiming Otherworld has a spacetime 'disconnect' from the universe. I am claiming that Otherworld has a different space and different time from the universe itself, which brings into question why the World of Kais would have the same time flow (or even timeline) as Universe 7, considering they are both realms that gods live within (which Elder Kai stated were being effected by Goku vs Beerus).

The World of Kais is outside of the macrocosm and reasonably has a different time flow/timeline due to Otherworld's time functioning differently to the mortal universe. Thus, if the shockwaves can travel an unknown distance away from the universe itself and influence the World of Kais, outside of the macrocosm, which likely has a different time flow (due to the logic that Otherworld functions on different time) then that indicates it is literally a different spacetime.

Again, this isn't the primary claim for the universe's destruction being Low 2-C. That claim pertains to characters stating it would destroy Universe 7 and then showing it would destroy the World of Kais and Otherworld as well. Arguing the semantics of Otherworld and the World of Kais is for investigating the mechanics of what the shockwaves were effecting and how they were effected.

Regardless, I am leaving this argument. I know the opposition will not budge even slightly and I know the staff will not agree with the upgrade, primarily due to a clear bias against Dragon Ball.

 

[LordTracer]

Christ, people are still misunderstanding the point of the Kaioshin realm being brought up...

Let me explain it as clearly as possible.

One statement that attempts to explicitly put Goku and Beerus' feat at tier 3 is that they'd destroy everything inside of the universe.

However, the Kaioshin realm, which they would have destroyed, is outside of the entire Universe 7 macrocosm, therefore contradiction said tier 3 statement.

The Kaioshin realm does not instantly equal Low 2-C, nobody said it did. The point is that one of the only two tier 3 statements is contradicted by the feat itself.

 

[Sera_EX]

Being outside of the macrocosm is not Low 2-C. That's all that matters. Destroying the afterlife along with the mortal universe is not Low 2-C. That's what we've been saying. Not the Kaioshin World is Low 2-C itself.

 

[Dragomer]

Turning the universe into a void was never Low 2-C. "Entire universe" doesn't help much either.

And when did i argue that it was what would happen ? what i argued is that given what happen on screen and the nature of the Kaioshin realm and the after life, the destruction would include the whole universe including the space time continuum, as a pure matter destruction wouldn't account for some of the stuff destroyed.

There is litteraly nothing to argue in favor of the 3-A interpretation of what happened and what the characters said, 3-A is litteraly contradictory to all the info we have about souls and the kaioshin realm.

 

[Sera_EX]

I'm not only responding to you, you know. I can't know when you're going to make a response at the same time I'm responding to someone else.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Being outside of the macrocosm is not Low 2-C. That's all that matters. Destroying the afterlife along with the mortal universe is not Low 2-C. That's what we've been saying. Not the Kaioshin World is Low 2-C itself.

Don't we accept things to be a different dimension if it's stated to be a different realm/dimension and requires dimension travel?

 

[Dragomer]

Being outside of the macrocosm is not Low 2-C. That's all that matters. Destroying the afterlife along with the mortal universe is not Low 2-C. That's what we've been saying. Not the Kaioshin World is Low 2-C itself.

But destroying the space time continuum of 1 universe is low 2-C, that's all that matter and since the universe being destroyed and it can't be only the matter because souls aren't made of anything physical and the kaioshin realm is only connected through the space time continuum, it means that it's the space time continuum that is being destroyed, therefor the feat is not 3-A it's low 2-C.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

A 3-A feat doesn't necessarily have to involve a strictly physical area of space, you know. The Observable Universe is just used as a common feat and a reference for the size which the affected location has to roughly occupy, and that's about it. It's far more about size than the properties of a given structure.

 

[Master_Xar]

@Cryo easy there man, no need to push and get hostile. At the end of the day these are just fictional characters.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

For those who didn't understand my U6 analogy, I said that because we have them as separate universes because Warp, a time and dimension traveling move, is required to go from U7 to U6. This is the same exact case with the realm of the Kai so what's the issue? And again what does size have to do with anything? That's why we're tearing it as low 2-C interests of 2-C. Actually explain the difference between them instead of saying "it's not" because you're spewing out double standards.

 

[Dragomer]

A 3-A feat doesn't necessarily have to involve a strictly physical area of space, you know. The Observable Universe is just used as a common feat and a reference for the size which the affected location has to roughly occupy, and that's about it. It's far more about size than the properties of a given structure.

My point is that when talking universal destruction, there is 2 interpretation : they are only going to destroy the universe's matter or they are going to destroy the space-time and the first one isn't applicable to the BOG feat due to the kaioshin realm only being linked to the mortal universe through the space time continuum and the souls of the afterlife having no physical existence despite both of them being included in said destruction.

 

[LordTracer]

Being outside of the macrocosm is not Low 2-C. That's all that matters. Destroying the afterlife along with the mortal universe is not Low 2-C. That's what we've been saying. Not the Kaioshin World is Low 2-C itself.

Once again, nobody said being outside of the universe = Low 2-C. The point is that there's basically nothing implying Goku and Beerus would only destroy what's inside the universe and it makes no sense to assume they would based on later things in the series.

 

[Sera_EX]

I know the opposition will not budge even slightly and I know the staff will not agree with the upgrade, primarily due to a clear bias against Dragon Ball.

Complete and utter nonsense. I love Dragon Ball, Ant likes Dragon Ball, Ultima, Kepekly, and Dragonmaster likes Dragon Ball. We have no bias against Dragon Ball. Our job is to keep our stats from being unreliable or exaggerated. No verse should be above our scrutiny just because we like it. Deal with it.

 

[Dragomer]

Can we not start overfocusing on one part of one comment made by one guy who already left the discussion ? we all know it will only derail the thread.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Can we not start overfocusing on one part of one comment made by one guy who already left the discussion ? we all know it will only derail the thread.

My thoughts exactly.