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The Battle of Gods

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LordTracer

LordTracer

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So, following off of the absolute success my last DBS revision thread was, we now have this.

Goku and Beerus' clash is at the moment considered Tier 3, because of the statements of Goku and Beerus turning Universe 7 into a void and that there would be nothing left in the universe, implying they're only affecting matter.

However, there's more statements and evidence pointing to it being a Tier 2 feat than a Tier 3 one. It should also be noted that the definition of universe in the original Japanese would be Low 2-C, not 3-A.

The Living World is stated in the Daizenshuu to resemble our universe in reality. As our IRL universe is a space-time continuum, the Living World would also be a space-time continuum. Hence the word "reality". It's even compared to sci-fi verses like Star Wars, which has a space-time continuum.

Goku and Beerus' clash was being felt i, and would have destroyed the Kaioshin realm. This directly contradicts the notion that they'd only be destroying matter in the universe, since the Kaioshin realm is located outside of Universe 7. Even in the manga it's shown outside the universe, so the notion that it's one big continuum is shaky especially when the realm of the Kaioshin realm looks to have its own space-time bubble.

The majority of statements in the Beerus Saga just say the universe will be destroyed, not just everything within the universe. One statement even specifically said the entire universe would be destroyed.

It is impossible to freely travel between the Living Realm, Afterlife and Kaioshin realm. If all of Universe 7's realms were a Tier 3 structure and had finite distances between them, it should be entirely possible to travel back and forth between them.

Whis is capable of time traveling via his Warp ability, which is necessary to travel between the Living World, Afterlife and Kaioshin realm as well as the Numbered Universes.

Feats in later sagas back up the U7 feat being Tier 2, such as Frieza surviving Sidra's Hakai, 17 managing to damage Jiren, the GoDs being impressed by Goku's power during the Zen Exhibition, Vegeta, Trunks and Goku surviving Infinite Zamasu's attacks, Goku being confident enough to fight IZ with a senzu bean, Kefla surpassing Ultra Instinct 1 and 2 with only finite increases of power, etc.

In the Daizenshuu, which is approved by Toriyama himself, Vice Shout was covering the mortal universe. Vice Shout only affects space-time, as shown in the RoSaT, and breaking the space-time around the universe shows that the mortal universe is an actual universe.

As such, I propose this. Goku and Beerus' shockwaves would destroyed the entirety of Universe 7 (universe and the afterlife), which are connected and and forms a globe like structure, and they were able to reach the Kaioshin realm outside of Universe 7, and they would have destroyed it. (Low 2-C)

Supporters: 21 (Akreious, Zamasu Cha, Ionliosite, Hiryu-Z, SuhSuhGuhSuhSuh, Diinou HotHead, SSJRyu1, PowerToScale, DBZMLP12345, Dragomer, AwkguyDB, ArmBill, Milly Rocking Bandit, Missy0124, Elizhaa, Joshku1788, Master Xar, GojiBoyForever, Warren Valio, Ted Ed, CryoTheMayo)
 
Don't know about it being 2-C but the whole shockwave thing was definitely going to destroy the afterlife and the kaioshin realm, the Elder Kaioshin wouldn't be afraid to die otherwise.

Also shitstorm incoming.
 
I know the storm is definitely coming. Also I personally agree with Zamasu about options two or one being the best.
 
I also feel like this is important to note.

Universe and demon realm scan 1
"There is a chaotic place called the devil Realm somewhere in the universe"


This first scans notes that the universe is also contains the devil/demon realm within the universe.

Universe and demon realm scan 2
"a general term for term for the world that combines the entire universe and the demon realm" and "In Dragon Ball's world-view, there is the airtight universe, and there is the Demon Realm that takes the appearance of the reverse side of that"


This scan tells us that the living world is not just the universe, but also contains the demon realm within it, that takes the reverse side of the appearance of the reverse side of the universe.

Universe and demon realm scan 3
"the endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the living world. Along with the "demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the living world"


In this scan, it tells us again that the demon realm and universe are in the world of living. Another thing to note it says "Along with the"demon realm," it is a single, large world". like the previous scans, it tells us that the demon realm is part of the universe

Universe and demon realm scan 4
"A world in a dimension on the other side of "the universe," which is the world where people exist. It differs from "hell;" it is a world to be in the world of the living world "


This final scan tells us that the demon realm is in a dimension on the other side of the universe, furthering it is part of the universe like previous scans have said and suggested and also confirmed in the world of living. It tells us how magic is >> than science in the demon realm and that it is also split into space areas like the universe.

Most, if not all, of these scans tell us that the demon realm is a seperate realm within the universe, and is implied to be universal in size. I don't know what the accepted size is for it on the wiki. With the scans and LordTracers, it is further proof that the feat from the BoG is a Low 2-C to 2-C feat.
 
Gohan also said there was no end, kinda contradicting what Goku said.

And that blog goes off the assumption that they were only going to destroy the matter in the universe, and my original post explains why it's much more likely the we're going to destroy the entire universe and not just everything within it.
 
@LordTracer

Message @AKM sama so you two can debate it off.

@Zamasu Chan

I am neutral for now. Athough, depending how it goes on this CRT, I can change my stance.
 
Why exactly would I do that when all my points are right here...?
 
@LordTracer

@AKM sama is a knowledgeable DB staff member who created the blog page that you are trying to debunked. It was my suggestion to bring him here since it makes more sense to do so.

You will need @AKM sama to counter your evidence so a debate can commence.
 
The dragon ball wiki gives this discription of the hyperbolic time chamber

"Its reflective floor is of undefined area, and the Room's boundaries are thought to stretch to infinity in all directions even though it appears to have a definite atmosphere, limiting its size to about that of the Earth"

Basically saying that it's thought to be larger than earth, just the atmosphere being earth sized.
 
I thought you meant to like debate him on his message wall or something. And I'm not "trying" to debunk his blog, that's not the point of this thread.
 
This is about the thousandth time this has been brought up, and has been rejected - And I see nothing new. So, where do we begin?

"The Living World is stated in the Daizenshuu to resemble our universe in reality. As our IRL universe is a space-time continuum, the Living World would also be a space-time continuum. Hence the word "reality". It's even compared to sci-fi verses like Star Wars, which has a space-time continuum. "

This is an outdated source. To begin, the fact that they have the nonsense 4 galaxy thing within its very descriptions - So this automatically makes me question the source, and it's from Daizenshuu that was published what? Like a decade or two ago? And has a lot of questionable things within it. It's not a source I would trust. So what actual evidence is there for, for the After-Life having its own Space-Time continumm?

"Goku and Beerus' clash was being felt in, and would have destroyed the Kaioshin realm. This directly contradicts the notion that they'd only be destroying matter in the universe, since the Kaioshin realm is located outside of Universe 7. Even in the manga it's shown outside the universe, so the notion that it's one big continuum is shaky especially when the realm of the Kaioshin realm looks to have its own space-time bubble."

This would only be applicable for the manga because the anime doesn't show this. But so what if there's a bubble encompassing the realm? That's hardly passes as any evidence at all that the realm has a different Space-Time.

"The majority of statements in the Beerus Saga just say the universe will be destroyed, not just everything within the universe. One statement even specifically said the entire universe would be destroyed. "

Given there's multiple statements to the contrary, don't you think this is shacky? One parts says this, another says it's leaving it in a void. Also, it's saying the entire Universe will end up breaking - Breaking does not mean the same thing as Destroying it in its entirety.

The next part just uses an unreliable source, so I'm not going to bother to reply to it.

"Whis is capable of time traveling via his Warp ability, which is necessary to travel between the Living World, Afterlife and Kaioshin realm as well as the Numbered Universes. "

Sure.

"Feats in later sagas back up the U7 feat being Tier 2, such as Frieza surviving Sidra's Hakai, 17 managing to damage Jiren, the GoDs being impressed by Goku's power during the Zen Exhibition, Vegeta, Trunks and Goku surviving Infinite Zamasu's attacks, Goku being confident enough to fight IZ with a senzu bean, etc. "

I'll take this one part at a time: "such as Frieza surviving Sidra's Hakai" - It was only a very small fraction of his overall power, and so did Base Goku. Should we upgrade everyone to Low 2-C now?

"17 managing to damage Jiren" Taking him off by surprise? I wouldn't count this. Although, he still did do something so I might count it, but it's nothing that noteworthy.

" the GoDs being impressed by Goku's power during the Zen Exhibition:" No.They were just taken by surprise at how powerful Goku was, considering he was a mortal and one of the strongest at that, this does not tell me at all if they're actually comparable at all to them.


"Vegeta, Trunks and Goku surviving Infinite Zamasu's attacks" The kai's also survive a direct attack, so the whole thing is iffy.

"Goku being confident enough to fight IZ with a senzu bean" Okay, I'd count this as a reasonable one.

None of the options for now.
 
Giygas3 said:
This is an outdated source. To begin, the fact that they have the nonsense 4 galaxy thing within its very descriptions - So this automatically makes me question the source, and it's from Daizenshuu that was published what? Like a decade or two ago? And has a lot of questionable things within it. It's not a source I would trust. So what actual evidence is there for, for the After-Life having its own Space-Time continumm?
Click to expand...
You do know the Daizenshuu also says that "galaxies" is just the names the Kai gave to them and they aren't actually galaxies, right? They're quadrants. Also the Daizenshuu is used on Majin Buu's profile. And the Universe 7 map that is also used on this site shows the afterlife being the same size as the universe.

This would only be applicable for the manga because the anime doesn't show this. But so what if there's a bubble encompassing the realm? That's hardly passes as any evidence at all that the realm has a different Space-Time.

The point of that is Goku and Beerus were not only destroying the matter in the universe because their clash was reaching outside to the Kaioshin realm. And are you trying to say the anime doesn't show the Kaioshin realm being outside of the universe or that the clash was being felt there?

Given there's multiple statements to the contrary, don't you think this is shacky? One parts says this, another says it's leaving it in a void. Also, it's saying the entire Universe will end up breaking - Breaking does not mean the same thing as Destroying it in its entirety.

Multiple to the contrary such as? There's only two specifically saying it's what's inside the universe, several more just saying the universe. The definition of break is; "To separate into parts with suddenness or violence." Pretty sure that would still be Low 2-C.

I'll take this one part at a time: "such as Frieza surviving Sidra's Hakai" - It was only a very small fraction of his overall power, and so did Base Goku. Should we upgrade everyone to Low 2-C now?

A small fraction of Low 2-C is still Low 2-C, and if BoG was upgraded to Low 2-C Base Goku would have already been on that tier sagas earlier so... don't see your point here.

"17 managing to damage Jiren" Taking him off by surprise? I wouldn't count this. Although, he still did do something so I might count it, but it's nothing that noteworthy.

Goku and Vegeta also tried catching Jiren off-guard and it didn't work.

" the GoDs being impressed by Goku's power during the Zen Exhibition:" No.They were just taken by surprise at how powerful Goku was, considering he was a mortal and one of the strongest at that, this does not tell me at all if they're actually comparable at all to them.

And that wasn't meant to say Goku is relative to the GoDs at all, I don't know where you got that idea from. But why would the GoDs be impressed by Goku's power if he was 3-A, aka infinitely below them?

"Vegeta, Trunks and Goku surviving Infinite Zamasu's attacks" The kai's also survive a direct attack, so the whole thing is iffy.

Hm, Bulma and Mai did as well so I suppose you have a point there.
 
Oh hey Giygas3, no lie I'm just seeing your comment. I actually appreciate you breaking this down bit by bit.

Anyway something I wanted to address was the 4 galaxies thing. It was a translation error. IIRC Úèǵ▓│ translates to both galaxy and galaxies.
 
Also in one of the scans it says "there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae". Had it in quotations to say that it doesn't literally mean galaxies. Even so it still referred to areas instead of galaxies in other parts.
 
"You do know the Daizenshuu also says that "galaxies" is just the names the Kai gave to them and they aren't actually galaxies, right?"

Where does it say that the Kai's gave them that name?

" Also the Daizenshuu is used on Majin Buu's profile."

Okay, then it should be removed. But I'll go make a Content Revision thread on that when I get the chance.

"The point of that is Goku and Beerus were not only destroying the matter in the universe because their clash was reaching outside to the Kaioshin realm. "

It only matters if they have two different Space-Times or not. If they don't, then your point is moot.

". And are you trying to say the anime doesn't show the Kaioshin realm being outside of the universe or that the clash was being felt there? "

I'm asking when the anime (Super) depicts it, or says the Kaioshin realm is outside the Universe. My memory is a bit hazy on it, so I don't recall if it does or doesn't.

"Multiple to the contrary such as? "

This: "There's only two specifically saying it's what's inside the universe."

" The definition of break is; "To separate into parts with suddenness or violence." Pretty sure that would still be Low 2-C. "

Which completely loses all the support that you have for this one. Breaking the Universe only implies they're going to leave it unrecognizable, such as leaving it a complete void. If Old Kai had said that they would have destroyed the whole Universe, then that would be great evidence - But he doesn't say this.

"A small fraction of Low 2-C is still Low 2-C"

Sure, but I think you were missing my point - In fiction, they can put such a low fraction on their powers they can reduce themselves to whole dimensional less in power (It's stupid, I know). We see this throughout comics especially, and some examples of this in anime's as well.

"Goku and Vegeta also tried catching Jiren off-guard and it didn't work. "

In Android's 17 case, Jiren was caught off guard.

"And that wasn't meant to say Goku is relative to the GoDs at all, I don't know where you got that idea from. But why would the GoDs be impressed by Goku's power if he was 3-A, aka infinitely below them? "

Probably because if you're such amazed with a being and starts worrying over them, then that could imply that they might start becoming comparable - That's the idea that I was getting from you. Anyways, they can still certainly be impressed that a mortal obtained this amount of power because they didn't think mortals could get to this point, even if they're dimensions apart in power.
 
@Zamasu Of course. So the Japanese word can mean either one? Hmm... Don't they have plural forms of the word, instead of keeping it to mean either a noun or the plural form of the word?
 
Giygas3 said:
@Zamasu Of course. So the Japanese word can mean either one? Hmm... Don't they have plural forms of the word, instead of keeping it to mean either a noun or the plural form of the word?
Click to expand...
They don't, it's the same Kanji and the same romanisation (Ginga IIRC) for both.
 
Yes. It's also interesting what you said about the manga because there the realm is actually not connected to the universe what so ever so we still have the manga.
 
"Where does it say that the Kai's gave them that name?"

> Daizenshuu 7, Pages #44 - 45. The direct quote; "Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty."

"It only matters if they have two different Space-Times or not. If they don't, then your point is moot."

> Except the point is that they aren't only destroying things inside the universe... the Kaioshin realm is not inside the universe... so the point that they aren't only destroying the matter in the universe is correct.

"I'm asking when the anime (Super) depicts it, or says the Kaioshin realm is outside the Universe. My memory is a bit hazy on it, so I don't recall if it does or doesn't."

> The Universe 7 map that is accepted on this site and used for Super shows that the Kaioshin realm is outside of the Universe 7 globe, which you can see because I linked it in the OP.

"This: "There's only two specifically saying it's what's inside the universe.""

> So... you just brought it back to the beginning. There is only two statements saying it would only be the matter inside the universe, meanwhile every other statement refers to the universe itself. It's more consistently stated to be Low 2-C than 3-A, and the notion that they'd only destroy what's within the universe is debunked by the Kaioshin realm being threatened as well.

"Which completely loses all the support that you have for this one. Breaking the Universe only implies they're going to leave it unrecognizable, such as leaving it a complete void. If Old Kai had said that they would have destroyed the whole Universe, then that would be great evidence - But he doesn't say this."

> And where did you get that they'd leave it unrecognizable from? Because that's not what break means, so...

"Sure, but I think you were missing my point - In fiction, they can put such a low fraction on their powers they can reduce themselves to whole dimensional less in power (It's stupid, I know). We see this throughout comics especially, and some examples of this in anime's as well."

> And what exactly implies Sidra was holding back by literally an infinite amount?

"In Android's 17 case, Jiren was caught off guard."

> Once again, Goku and Vegeta hit an off-guard Jiren and it didn't do jack. So him being off guard isn't an excuse here. In fact, Jiren said; "That will only work once!"

"Anyways, they can still certainly be impressed that a mortal obtained this amount of power because they didn't think it was obtainable, even if they're dimensions apart in power."

> Even if they didn't think a mortal could reach it, why would it be impressive when it's two levels of infinity beneath them?
 
"Except the point is that they aren't only destroying things inside the universe... the Kaioshin realm is not inside the universe... so the point that they aren't only destroying the matter in the universe is correct. "

I know that isn't the point. Again, if you have a Universe, and another realm outside of it still connected by the same Space-Time, then they can still destroy both without affecting Space-Time. You can still destroy everything inside the Universe without destroying the Universe itself, and extend that range into a whole other realm still connected to the same Time-Space.

"The Universe 7 map that is accepted on this site and used for Super shows that the Kaioshin realm is outside of the Universe 7 globe, which you can see because I linked it in the OP. "

I asked for when Super depicts it like this.

"So... you just brought it back to the beginning. There is only two statements saying it would only be the matter inside the universe, meanwhile every other statement refers to the universe itself. "

You asked me when it reports to the contrary, and I gave you an answer. The 3rd example does not say, "They'll destroy the entire Universe".

"And where did you get that they'd leave it unrecognizable from? Because that's not what break means, so..."

Because you can't, "break' a Universe in a realistic term. There's nothing, "to break". The only context this could make sense in is leaving it not working as it should. In this case, leaving it a void - Everything is gone and it's lifeless, there's no creation not destruction anymore - It's broken. And it certainly supports the other words when they just simply say that it will leave the inside of the Universe a void.

"They'd only destroy what's within the universe is debunked by the Kaioshin realm being threatened as well. "

Range is a thing, yes? You can destroy everything within the Universe without destroying the Universe in its entirety, while also threatning to destroy other places outside of it.

"Once again, Goku and Vegeta hit an off-guard Jiren and it didn't do jack. So him being off guard isn't an excuse here. In fact, Jiren said; "That will only work once!" "

Fair Enough.

"Even if they didn't think a mortal could reach it, why would it be impressive when it's two levels of infinity beneath them?"

Can't a 5th dimensional being be impressed with a 3rd dimensional being exceeding what he thought a 3rd dimensional being could do? Just because you're so much stronger, doesn't mean you can't be impressed with something dimensions lower. (Of course, just this one example that you have. There's something better that you could use to support this argument.)
 
PowerToScale said:
There is also the demon realm. A Seperate dimension that is part of the universe.
Click to expand...
Better not try to add more stuff until what is already being discussed is settled, otherwise the thread might get messy.

Also we don't have enough info in canon about the demon realm in general to use it IMO.
 
"I know that isn't the point. Again, if you have a Universe, and another realm outside of it still connected by the same Space-Time, then they can still destroy both without affecting Space-Time. You can still destroy everything inside the Universe without destroying the Universe itself, and extend that range into a whole other realm still connected to the same Time-Space."

> Except my point is showing that one of the only two statements implying Tier 3 is inaccurate, showing that the Tier 2 statements are far more consistent. Also the universe itself is a space-time continuum, and the Kaioshin realm is located outside of that, so it's still Low 2-C.

"I asked for when Super depicts it like this."

> And the Universe 7 map is applicable to Super.

"You asked me when it reports to the contrary, and I gave you an answer. The 3rd example does not say, "They'll destroy the entire Universe"."

> You said multiple to the contrary, I assumed you had, y'know, more scans and weren't just going to repost the two I brought up and are explicitly going against. There's four Tier 2 statements against one Tier 3, are you really going to go with the Tier 3?

"Because you can't, "break' a Universe in a realistic term. If you break something, then you leave it not working as it should. In this case, leaving it a void - Everything is gone and it's lifeless, there's no creation not destruction anymore - It's broken. And it certainly supports the other words when they just simply say that it will leave the inside of the Universe a void."

> You mean that one statement that's contradicted by four others? Also destroy is a synonym of break. As is annihilate, demolish, disintegrate, eradicate, several words that would mean the feat is Low 2-C. And again, Goku and Beerus weren't just affecting the inside of the universe...

"Range is a thing, yes? You can destroy everything within the Universe without destroying the Universe in its entirety, while also threatning to destroy other places outside of it."

> You can't only destroy what's inside the universe while also explicitly destroying something that's outside of it.

"Can't a 5th dimensional being be impressed with a 3rd dimensional being exceeding what he thought a 3rd dimensional being could do? Just because you're so much stronger, doesn't mean you can't be impressed with something dimensions lower. (Of course, just this one example that you have. There's something better that you could use to support this argument.)"

> It... kinda does. The definition of impressive is; "Having the power to excite attention, awe, or admiration." How exactly is a being literally infinitely beneath you supposed to get your attention? And of course, I have more examples, I put etc for a reason. The Universe 7 Genkidama was considered dangerous by Champa, Belmod was worried about it, Jiren had to clearly exert himself to push it back finally, Belmod was horrified by Vegeta Blue's Final Flash and Jiren had to block it, and there's even more other than that stuff.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Giygas3 actually has a point about the DBS anime. It depicts the universe as this while the manga depicts it as this.
Click to expand...
Because the kaioshin realm and the after life are other dimension, you can't see them just by zooming out of the universe.

that and it cost less to storyboard
 
Dragomer said:
Zamasu Chan said:
Giygas3 actually has a point about the DBS anime. It depicts the universe as this while the manga depicts it as this.
Click to expand...
Because the kaioshin realm and the after life are other dimension, you can't see them just by zooming out of the universe.
that and it cost less to storyboard
Click to expand...
Care to elaborate?
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Giygas3 actually has a point about the DBS anime. It depicts the universe as this while the manga depicts it as this.
Click to expand...
Just saying, if we're only going off of appearance that looks like exclusively the Living World and nothing else. And the map that depicts the Kaioshin realm as outside of Universe 7 was drawn by Toriyama himself. And then there's still the whole "no free travel from living world, afterlife to Kaioshin realm" and Whis' Warp being necessary to travel to it.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Dragomer said:
Zamasu Chan said:
Giygas3 actually has a point about the DBS anime. It depicts the universe as this while the manga depicts it as this.
Click to expand...
Because the kaioshin realm and the after life are other dimension, you can't see them just by zooming out of the universe.
that and it cost less to storyboard
Click to expand...
Care to elaborate?
Click to expand...
Toyotaro can use Toriyama's map because he can litteraly copy paste it, while the anime staff would need to storyboard it themself and it would more effort than it's worth given that it's an heavily stylized map that might confused random watchers anyway.

So they just scaled up one of the galaxies they had to make for Super Shenron's appareance anyway, they used something they would have needed to make anyway and since no one know how an universe actualy look like from outside, it was considered good enough to not confuse people without wasting time and effort.
 
Didnt we have a thread about how it's more accurate to assume most translations of Japanese Universes would be Low 2-C rather than 3-A since physical universe is actually a very rare thing in their fiction? It'd also align with Goku in the Zamasu Saga being confident he could beat Infinite Zamasu if he had a senzu
 
Oh yeah, pretty the whole "Japanese translations = Low 2-C" was a thing.
 
Also, that ignores the fact that Db Kai, which Db Super's anime follows, uses the manga's depiction of the universe in it's opening (not hard evidence, but still something)
 
Well, Goku can say he would reach or surpass IZ's level with a senzu and the stupid boosts granted by a Zenkai would make it possible, but saying he would be able to defeat him means he'll need Non-Physical Interaction.
 
Ionliosite said:
Well, Goku can say he would reach or surpass IZ's level with a senzu and the stupid boosts granted by a Zenkai would make it possible, but saying he would be able to defeat him means he'll need Non-Physical Interaction.
Click to expand...
He actually should. Their beams hit Zamasu's face in the sky rather thab going through it. It'd be sort of hard to hit his face when he's literally space-time at that point.
 
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