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The Battle of Gods

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Then he shouldn't have added that in the first place
 
Sera EX said:
Then he shouldn't have added that in the first place
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maybe but he left so scolding him is pointless and would only derail the thread the same way as answering it would.

Also ShadowWarrior don't start this again.
 
Yes I did. This whole idea of "the staff don't like DB" is fundamentally flawed. It needed to be addressed because it's a lie about someone else's character, the character of many people who like the series.
 
So any counter-argument to say that the BOG feat would only destroy the matter inside the universe ?
 
Dragomer said:
Sera EX said:
Then he shouldn't have added that in the first place
Click to expand...
maybe but he left so scolding him is pointless and would only derail the thread the same way as answering it would.
Also ShadowWarrior don't start this again.
Click to expand...
I'm not starting anything, I'm calling out "muh bias" because it's a bad debating tactic.
 
The accusation of the staff being bias against DB is baffling when many of the same staff have shown support for the series in the past and many of them were supporters before coming actual staff members.
 
Sera EX said:
That's not how burden of proof works.
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There is two possibility : They destroy the matter inside the universe AKA 3-A or the space-time continuum AKA low 2-C and i presented two proof in favor of low 2-C, now it's time to either accept it or provide argument in favor of the only option.

It would be different if we argued about if the feat itself was legitimate when talking about universal destruction but we aren't, we're talking about what KIND of universal destruction they are talking about and it can't be the A-3 one as said earlier.

The burden of proof doesn't exempt someone to have to make their own argument nor explain why they find the opposition invalid.

So what point toward 3-A instead of low 2-C ?
 
Sorry that I wasn't able to reply yesterday, I got a bit too busy. Anyways... Seems like we're mostly going back and forth at this point, and not really making too much progress besides mostly restating each other. Anyways, after rethinking my position, it seems the best way is to find the best explanation for what we're seeing. So let's sort it out:

Evidence for this being

  • Low 2-C: If it's affecting just the matter of the Universe, then it would not do anything to the beings of the after-life, after all, affecting just the matter of their beings will result in nothing. And considering they're doing physical shock-waves, this also isn't a hax feat - So it affecting Space-Time explains this the best.
Possible refutation: None given as far as I read.

  • Low 2-C: The Kaioshin realm being disconnected from the Time-Line, hints - To affect it, it would have to be affecting Time-Space and not just the matter, but not large enough to give it a 2-C rating.
  • Refutation: It's only outside of the Universe, and there's no evidence other then speculation that they have different Space-Times.
  • Possible counter-argument: The fact that they're in different areas, encompassed in different globes, untop of being outside the Space-Time of the Universe, (And the only way we've seen to get there is through Teleporation or Whis traveling there, so no instances of someone getting there through conventional means), it seems the best option is to say they would have to be affecting Space-Time to some degree to extend beyond the confines of Universes 7 Space-Time continumm, into a disjointed one.
So far those are the two leading things for Low 2-C, but care to add to that list if I missed something.

  • 3-A: No mention of Space-Time, and one statement has it leaving the Universe just a void, which supports that they likely aren't affecting it.
  • Counter-Argument: They're far more statements of the entirety of the Universe being destroyed, instead of just one statement that they're just going to leave it in a void, and true, no mention of Space-Time, but the fact they're destroying the entirety of the Universe, and affecting non-corporal beings which just affecting the matter of the Universe won't do, and possibly a Universe with a disjointed Space-Time Continuum, it seems the best option is to say they're affecting Space-Time, and not just the matter.
  • Possible Refutation: They're still not much evidence to support your conclusion besides conjecture

So from taking a look, I agree that they shouldn't be outright given Low 2-C, considering we're not sure if the Kaioshin realm has a separate Space-Time or not, and still no mention of affecting Space-Time. However, Low 2-C seems to best model for what's happening, and it would certainly fit more in line with our own Tiering system, So at most I'd be OK with 3-A/ Possibly Low 2-C, but still certainly not outright Low 2-C given the conjecture that's being used.
 
Since people were bringing up the U7 map, let's talk about it. The map is a layout of the physical realms of Universe 7. The realms are not individual space-times. They are not separate from the temporality of U7. Time does not have to flow the same in every reach of the universe. That's not how time works.

Low 2-C cannot be achieved by thinking just because the fight was felt in the World of the Kais and that said world would be destroyed as well. It does not mean the entire temporality of U7 is being threatened. It means their fight is encroaching across the entire Universe (U7 map) and is affecting other physical and nonphysical realms but these are part of that same universe and have nothing to do with time. It's not saying time is also being threatened. There's no evidence for that. The only timeline threat in DBS is Zamasu's merging with the universe and it was explicitly shown to be affecting time itself.

Goku v. Beerus is a greater magnitude of 3-A, not Low 2-C.
 
Sera EX said:
Since people were bringing up the U7 map, let's talk about it. The map is a layout of the physical realms of Universe 7. The realms are not individual space-times. They are not separate from the temporality of U7. Time does not have to flow the same in every reach of the universe. That's not how time works.
Low 2-C cannot be achieved by thinking just because the fight was felt in the World of the Kais and that said world would be destroyed as well. It does not mean the entire temporality of U7 is being threatened. It means their fight is encroaching across the entire Universe (U7 map) and is affecting other physical and nonphysical realms but these are part of that same universe and have nothing to do with time. It's not saying time is also being threatened. There's no evidence for that. The only timeline threat in DBS is Zamasu's merging with the universe and it was explicitly shown to be affecting time itself.

Goku v. Beerus is a greater magnitude of 3-A, not Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
No, it's not a physical layout, it include the demon realm that is explicitly a magic place where physics is a no-go, it's a cosmologic map that show the universe as it is.

It being one big space time or not is irrelevant, my argument even work better with all of it being 1 space time.

Good thing it wasn't just felt and was outtright stated to destroy it.

Once again, all those place are only connected by the space time, if you can't justify a pure matterial destruction of it, then it only leave the low 2-C interpretation, universal destruction only come in two flavor going by the tiering definition : only destroy the matter and so is 3-A or destroy the space time and so is low 2-C, you yourself just admited that it would also destroy non-physical place, making 3-A downright impossible.

Timelines are irrelevant unless we are going for full on 2-C, we are not, we are arguing for Low 2-C, it was already agreed on this site that each of the 12 universe have their own space time.

And none of what you said account for the destruction of the after-life's soul.

So the feat is low 2-C, none of your point support that it is 3-A for the reason i brough up above and would only matter if we were arguing that it was 2-C or that each universe didn't have it's own space time but we aren't.

I don't even see what there is to argue anymore since even you just admitted it would also destroy non-physical realm; thus making the whole 'it would only destroy the matter' impossible.
 
I think that Sera and Ultima make good sense.

Also, I love the Dragon Ball series. Just f.y.i.
 
It's not Low 2-C. You can affect multiple spatially disconnected realms without threatening the temporality of that universe.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Sera and Ultima make good sense.
Also, I love the Dragon Ball series. Just f.y.i.
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I honestly have to ask how it make any sense on that one, without being disrespectful because i don't see the logic in considering it 3-A , which is directly refered to in the low 2-C definition as 'only destroying the matter inside the universe' when even the opposant argument just admitted it would affect non-physical realm, unless it was decided that matter counted as non-physical on a thread i didn't see ?

I just don't see the logic here.
 
I also never argued only physical matter would be destroyed. Destroying physical and non-physical phenomenon at the same time as no bearing on the timeline whatsoever.
 
Yes, the spacetime continuum itself needs to be destroyed for a Low 2-C rating. As Ultima said, you are referring to a range feat.

In addition, the statistics would make considerably less sense if we made virtually everybody Low 2-C.
 
How when everyone is already 3-A... they're all still universe busters, what makes Low 2-C so much more nonsensical...
 
Sera EX said:
I also never argued only physical matter would be destroyed. Destroying physical and non-physical phenomenon at the same time as no bearing on the timeline whatsoever.
Click to expand...
The previous threads about this subject always concluded that the feat would be counted as 3-A because there wasn't enough info to say the characters meant that they would destroy more than that and the argument i brough up make that option an impossibility, only leaving low 2-C, you maybe never made that argument but it was the site's official argument on why it was 3-A.

Good thing timelines are irrelevant here then because we're only talking about 1 space time and low 2-C, not 2-C, in DB anything that doesn't destroy all 12 universe has no bearing on the timelines.

the definition of low 2-C outright state 'This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one', given that physical matter and spacetime destruction are the only two flavor of universal destruction on this site, my argument making the physical interpretation only leave low 2-C as a valid rating for the feat, if we were arguing about if the whole universal destruction itself was valid it would be another thing but we aren't.

So it's simply a low 2-C feat, since it can't be argued that they would only destroy the matter of the universe, it only leave 'they really do mean the whole universe, including space time' as an interpretation of the characters's statement and what we see on screen.
 
LordTracer said:
How when everyone is already 3-A... they're all still universe busters, what makes Low 2-C so much more nonsensical...
Click to expand...
Because there would be no progression/difference in tier between SSG Goku in the beginning of DBS and MUI Goku after the tournament of power.

However, the other issues that Ultima and Sera mentioned are more important.
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, the spacetime continuum itself needs to be destroyed for a Low 2-C rating. As Ultima said, you are referring to a range feat.
In addition, the statistics would make considerably less sense if we made virtually everybody Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
Yes, the space time need to be destroyed and what else could they be destroying when the 'they are only talking about the matter inside the universe' interpretation is made impossible ?

No, because the Kaioshin realm was included in the destruction, i don't see how a feat can interpreted as only destroying the matter inside the universe when it reach beyond the universe, to a place only connect to space time and would destroy it as well as destroying multiple entity that can't be affected through physical means, it's not a question of range, it's the nature of the destruction itself.

I don't see how, if anything it make more sense, we would have less 'X was holding back a litteraly infinit ammount but still had the time of their life fighting' and the whole Zamasu thing would make more sense (and no, Goku wasn't saying it in a 'i don't know if i don't try' way, just watch the scene and compare it with when he is on the ground against Beerus, an actual unwinnable fight and even if with that interpretation it wouldn't justify them surviving IZ's attack or countering him.)
 
If it's affecting just the matter of the Universe, then it would not do anything to the beings of the after-life, after all, affecting just the matter of their beings will result in nothing. And considering they're doing physical shock-waves, this also isn't a hax feat - So it affecting Space-Time explains this the best.

I should note this is basically a non-sequitur here, there is no connective reasoning between the base of the argument (The Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm aren't physical) and the conclusion drawn from it (Therefore Space-Time must also have been affected), which honestly seems very hasty and lacks any solid basis on any form of previously presented evidence whatsoever, no offense but people seem to just be inferring stuff out of thin air.

I've already said 3-A feats and below don't have to involve strictly physical structures. In the case of 3-A, the Observable Universe is just used as a reference and nothing more. It isn't exactly a stretch to assume Goku and Beerus would just destroy a non-physical realm which extends outside of their universe through the shockwaves of their attacks, space-time doesn't have to be involved here. It's at best a range feat, not AP, since, like I said, the latter has strictly to do with size, not the properties of a given realm.
 
I'm still with Sera and Ultima Reality regarding the 3-A characters. None of the mortals prior to the Zamasu arc should be Tier 2. It clearly states that their simply destroying every celestial object and every one in the universe, not the Space-Time continuum. And yes, they're effecting multiple bodies of space, and Kaioshin Realm is a space outside of the Mortal Universe and Afterlife, but there's no proof of it being an alternate timeline. It only qualifies as being far above baseline 3-A, but only Infinite Zamasu has the Low 2-C feat. And of course Jiren is far above that and same with the GoD and Angels, but we shouldn't abuse power scaling.

Dragon Ball is far from being the worst example of not treating 3-A and Low 2-C as a higher infinity. SMT and Dissidia Final Fantasy have numerous examples of Tier 6 characters trading blows with 2-A characters and Massively Hypersonic characters keeping up with Immeasurable speed characters. But still, Dragon Ball Super still has the inconsistencies that should be forced or overused. We cannot exaggerate the fodder underdogs nor can we downplay the god tiers or protagonists. The characters who've shown Tier 2 reasons can stay, but the ones who haven't should remain as they are.

Also, destroying souls and afterlifes doesn't make it tier 2, it's still Tier 3 unless there's more context.
 
Because there would be no progression/difference in tier between SSG Goku in the beginning of DBS and MUI Goku after the tournament of power.

However, the other issues that Ultima and Sera mentioned are more important.

Same tier =/= no difference in power. Especially with how massive the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is.
 
Ultima Reality said:
If it's affecting just the matter of the Universe, then it would not do anything to the beings of the after-life, after all, affecting just the matter of their beings will result in nothing. And considering they're doing physical shock-waves, this also isn't a hax feat - So it affecting Space-Time explains this the best.
I should note this is basically a non-sequitur here, there is no connective reasoning between the base of the argument (The Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm aren't physical) and the conclusion drawn from it (Therefore Space-Time must also have been affected), which honestly seems very hasty and lacks any solid basis on any form of previously presented evidence whatsoever, no offense but people seem to just be inferring stuff out of thin air.

I've already said 3-A feats and below don't have to involve strictly physical structures. In the case of 3-A, the Observable Universe is just used as a reference and nothing more. It isn't exactly a stretch to assume Goku and Beerus would just destroy a non-physical realm which extends outside of their universe through the shockwaves of their attacks, space-time doesn't have to be involved here. It's at best a range feat, not AP, since, like I said, the latter has strictly to do with size, not the properties of a given realm.
Click to expand...
Your whole thing is based on an error : i'm not talking purely physicaly because 3-A used the observable universe in their definition, i'm talking about low 2-C directly differentiated itself 'only destroying the matter of the universe'.

So no, it's not a question of size, nor range, it's a question of a universal destruction on a physical level being an imposibility within the context of the feat.
 
Sera was debunked

I think Sera was just debunked?

Why are you guys acting like this? Seriously. I'm in a very delicate condition where I'm prone to mood swings. Yet you guys keep throwing snide comments talking about who was "debunked". Stop, because if I were the one doing that you'd all claim I'd be insulting you.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm still with Sera and Ultima Reality regarding the 3-A characters. None of the mortals prior to the Zamasu arc should be Tier 2. It clearly states that their simply destroying every celestial object and every one in the universe, not the Space-Time continuum. And yes, they're effecting multiple bodies of space, and Kaioshin Realm is a space outside of the Mortal Universe and Afterlife, but there's no proof of it being an alternate timeline. It only qualifies as being far above baseline 3-A, but only Infinite Zamasu has the Low 2-C feat. And of course Jiren is far above that and same with the GoD and Angels, but we shouldn't abuse power scaling.
Dragon Ball is far from being the worst example of not treating 3-A and Low 2-C as a higher infinity. SMT and Dissidia Final Fantasy have numerous examples of Tier 6 characters trading blows with 2-A characters and Massively Hypersonic characters keeping up with Immeasurable speed characters. But still, Dragon Ball Super still has the inconsistencies that should be forced or overused. We cannot exaggerate the fodder underdogs nor can we downplay the god tiers or protagonists. The characters who've shown Tier 2 reasons can stay, but the ones who haven't should remain as they are.
Click to expand...
Where does it state so ? even the closest statement to that is contradicted because it only talk about 'inside the universe' while affecting stuff outside the universe.

No, the kaioshin realm being in another timeline or not as 0 effect on anything, if the Kaioshin realm was in another timeline we would be talking about 2-C, not low 2-C, for low 2-C we only need 1 space time and enough info to conclude that the destruction of the universe isn't purely physical, that's litteraly said in the definition of the tier.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm still with Sera and Ultima Reality regarding the 3-A characters. None of the mortals prior to the Zamasu arc should be Tier 2. It clearly states that their simply destroying every celestial object and every one in the universe, not the Space-Time continuum.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, where is this stated? If you mean the statement about them only destroying what's inside Universe 7, the Kaioshin realm contradicts this as it's outside of the entire U7 globe. Which is the entire point of the Kaioshin realm being in the discussion. Once again, the Kaioshin realm is not what makes the feat Low 2-C. The fact that it contradicts the statement that would make the feat 3-A is.
 
I obviously agree that people here need to try to be respectful.
 
How was my comment snide in ANY way? I simply replied what I thought had happened, apologies if that came off rude to you. And no, I wouldn't, I am not that fragile.
 
@Dragomer

That's my whole point: 3-A destruction doesn't really have to take place on a physical level, and can involve structures of literally any kind, so long as they roughly fall under the defined size established by the Tiering System (in this case, the size of the Observable Universe).

Saying you are not arguing about size also doesn't really work, since the whole System past 3-A is explicitly based around the notion of size in the first place, just extended to better accomodate feats of a higher scale. Low 2-C is about destroying an area that is qualitatively larger than an infinite universe, which in this case we equalize to a timeline, for example, or the Universe in its fullest extent (Past, Present and Future). So, yeah, it is very much about size.
 
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