Team Fortress 9-A Upgrade

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

We don't need to have the vaporization discussion again, and reflection doesn't imply characters can survive something.

Alright like you can argue they somehow don't fully scale to it in spite that then OK understandable to some extent, however what we have proposed seems more agreed with then and I am A-OK with too now. But what I meant by deflection is that we literally have Pyro in your case not surviving it but at least he IS able to deflect/react to certain different potentially faster projectiles other then just Missiles or Arrows which was supposed to get to more later, but one of these were those aparrently.

 

[Abstractions]

But what I meant by deflection is that we literally have Pyro in your case not surviving it but at least he IS able to deflect/react to certain different potentially faster projectiles other then just Missiles or Arrows which was supposed to get to more later, but one of these were those aparrently.

Does Pyro use Airburst in the comics? I'd argue that if it's strictly a gameplay thing its canonicity is up for question.

I'd also consider reacting to anything faster than rockets or arrows to be an outlier, as Sniper couldn't react to the bullets he was riddled with and he'd have to scale to Pyro by proxy.

 

[TheGatememer]

Does Pyro use Airburst in the comics? I'd argue that if it's strictly a gameplay thing its canonicity is up for question

alright
A. Double standard
B. The cams in Expiration date disprove the claim of gameplay being non canon

 

[Abstractions]

A. Double standard

In what way am I proposing a double standard? It's a quote from the comics themselves that throw up the idea that gameplay is exaggerated because it's a dramatization of events.

B. The cams in Expiration date disprove the claim of gameplay being non canon

How do the cameras at all make this the case?

 

[TheGatememer]

In what way am I proposing a double standard? It's a quote from the comics themselves that throw up the idea that gameplay is exaggerated because it's a dramatization of events.

Fair enough, I could see how this is a different case. Though my stance hasn’t changed on it being canon. Not to mention SFM using the exact same assets from TF2, so I can’t see it being that dramatized/exaggerated either way.

How do the cameras at all make this the case?

It… literally shows gameplay. Slow down the video, and you can see gameplay recordings form the screens.

 

[Abstractions]

Not to mention SFM using the exact same assets from TF2, so I can’t see it being that dramatized/exaggerated either way.

It using the same assets outside of gameplay doesn't mean the gameplay is suddenly canon as story is still separate from gameplay.

It… literally shows gameplay. Slow down the video, and you can see gameplay recordings form the screens.

Playback footage is suddenly all gameplay?

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

Playback footage is suddenly all gameplay?

I mean the top left screen clearly shows gameplay, you can even see the little circle that shows up when capping a point

 

[Abstractions]

I mean the top left screen clearly shows gameplay, you can even see the little circle that shows up when capping a point

I don't believe that suddenly equates to "all gameplay is canon" unless you want to insist that every mercenary is a clone of each other and every Demoman to exist has a haunted eyeball.

Comics can reference events and that's cool but the core gameplay itself is what's being called into question.

 

[TheGatememer]

I… don’t really know what else you want. The cameras literally show gameplay. Even assuming gameplay wasn’t canon, as I’ve said, they can’t be exaggerated that much, since the animations use SFM, which uses the same exact assets from TF2. Same models, particles, everything.

unless you have solid proof that gameplay is exaggerated to the point where it is unusable, then it’s fine to use. The statement by itself doesn’t really mean much when there isn’t anything that proves the former.

besides, even with just the comics, TF2’s canon is pretty inconsistent if the merging of the two teams didn’t make that obvious

 

[Abstractions]

I… don’t really know what else you want. The cameras literally show gameplay. Even assuming gameplay wasn’t canon, as I’ve said, they can’t be exaggerated that much, since the animations use SFM, which uses the same exact assets from TF2. Same models, particles, everything.

I don't know how using the same models suddenly detracts from the concept that gameplay exaggerates events, using the same assets doesn't dictate the level of which something tells a story. How would one tell the difference between a non-canon comic and a canon one if the art style is the same with this logic?

unless you have solid proof that gameplay is exaggerated to the point where it is unusable, then it’s fine to use. The statement by itself doesn’t really mean much when there isn’t anything that proves the former.

I just provided the scan explains the game is a dramatization of events from the comic that is, for all intents and purposes, TF2's story, so the question is what exactly do you want from me?

 

[TheGatememer]

And yes, each merc has to be a clone of each other, since the Mann Brothers each hired 9 mercs. It makes no sense but whatever that’s TF2 canon for you.

 

[The_Smashor]

And yes, each merc has to be a clone of each other, since the Mann Brothers each hired 9 mercs. It makes no sense but whatever that’s TF2 canon for you.

Not necessarily a clone, but it is made clear in content outside of gameplay that there are two of each merc (Such as with Meet the Spy)

 

[TheGatememer]

I just provided the scan explains the game is a dramatization of events from the comic that is, for all intents and purposes, TF2's story, so the question is what exactly do you want from me?

Prove that gameplay is so different from the animations/comics that it cannot be used. TF2’s canon is already wacky. I want you to show that the gameplay is so different/exaggerated to the point it cannot be used.

 

[TheGatememer]

Not necessarily a clone, but it is made clear in content outside of gameplay that there are two of each merc (Such as with Meet the Spy)

Yea that’s kinda what I meant. But for whatever reason, in the post mvm arc, they decided to merge each merc into one person.

 

[Abstractions]

Not necessarily a clone, but it is made clear in content outside of gameplay that there are two of each merc (Such as with Meet the Spy)

And that RED Spy is not only RED Scout's father, but also sleeping with BLU Scout's mom.

And Soldier owns the head of every BLU, or something.

Prove that gameplay is so different from the animations/comics

Gameplay is not story, there you go.

Prove that gameplay is so different from the animations/comics that it cannot be used. TF2’s canon is already wacky. I want you to show that the gameplay is so different/exaggerated to the point it cannot be used.

But in all seriousness, how would you prove the difference in comics with the same art style? I want you to answer the question.

 

[TheGatememer]

And Soldier owns the head of every BLU, or something

He does in the comics too.

Gameplay is not story, there you go.

This tells me nothing.

If anything, the scan you showed tells us otherwise since it is said to be a “documentary” about the events that happened in the TF2 storyline.

And like I’ve shown, the cams literally show gameplay. So I’m going to ask you again: What else do you want?

How would you prove the difference in comics with the same art style?

What?

 

[Abstractions]

He does in the comics too.

Yeah, I know that.

This tells me nothing.

It was a joke, in fact.

If anything, the scan you showed tells us otherwise since it is said to be a “documentary” about the events that happened in the TF2 storyline.

And like I’ve shown, the cams literally show gameplay. So I’m going to ask you again: What else do you want?

Yes, and that same scan tells you that it's a dramatization of events as well, therefore making the contents of the game exaggerated, not sure where you are gathering that it's telling you otherwise, I provided you the scan and told you exactly what it says verbatim.

Show me where that little camera says all gameplay is canon and how it all being SFM models suddenly means the contents of the game aren't exaggerated.

What?

I… don’t really know what else you want. The cameras literally show gameplay. Even assuming gameplay wasn’t canon, as I’ve said, they can’t be exaggerated that much, since the animations use SFM, which uses the same exact assets from TF2. Same models, particles, everything.

You assert here that because gameplay uses the same models as the animations that the gameplay suddenly isn't exaggerated that much (which isn't currently backed up by anything and is just a way of reaffirming your biases), I asked you how you could even approximate something like this by asking you how you'd tell comics apart if they had the same art style, because your answer to the question matters.

EDIT: Say in this case that when I mean same art style I also mean same writer, to make this more closely identical to the situation here.

 

[TheGatememer]

Yes, and that same scan tells you that it's a dramatization of events as well, therefore making the contents of the game exaggerated, not sure where you are gathering that it's telling you otherwise, I provided you the scan and told you exactly what it says verbatim.

And I've shown you how it couldn't be dramatized to the point of unusability. Do you actually have something else to back up this claim aside from jokes?

Show me where that little camera says all gameplay is canon

You are telling me to show you something that doesn't exist. No shit the camera doesn't say "ALL GAMEPLAY IS CANON". What it does show is literal ingame footage. You can see the icon for capping the point and everything. Even if it doesn't state it, it literally shows it. Those security cameras are all recordings of battles they've all had, which is ingame stuff.

Not mention, the map intros also show gameplay, which are also recordings.

Obviously it can't show all stuff like airblasting, demoman charging, or literally everything that hasn't been shown in the animations or comics but have been shown ingame, as they are incredibly small clips. It does show that ingame stuff is canon, since, well that's literally what the recordings are.

and how it all being SFM models suddenly means the contents of the game aren't exaggerated.

It uses the exact same resources from TF2. Same animations, same particles, same models, everything. So it literally is impossible to exaggerate ingame feats and stuff since SFM literally uses the same resources.

By this, I mean that Soldier doesn't create a nuclear explosion everytime he fires a rocket. Or Scout not moving at hypersonic speeds signifying how he is the fastest class. Point is, ingame stuff is identical to the stuff that is used in the SFM animations, so it literally can't be dramatized to the extreme. You'd have a point if the entirety of TF2 was just some animated tale, but its not, its a video game. And SFM uses the exact same resources from said video game. Not similar, mind you, the Exact. Same.

You assert here that because gameplay uses the same models as the animations that the gameplay suddenly isn't exaggerated that much (which isn't currently backed up by anything and is just a way of reaffirming your biases)

See point above. And I have yet to see you actually show that ingame stuff is dramatized to the point of unusability, when literally everything points to the other direction. (Multiple recordings, like the security footage from Expiration date using ingame footage, and the Map intros, which are just recordings, also using ingame footage. Not to mention SFM literally using the EXACT. SAME. Resources as TF2.)

If anything, you are relying on this one single line that has little to no basis to it. It being dramatized doesn't even inherently mean that ingame stuff is exaggerated, it can just mean that the events are adapted into the game.

I asked you how you could even approximate something like this by asking you how you'd tell comics apart if they had the same art style, because your answer to the question matters.

EDIT: Say in this case that when I mean same art style I also mean same writer, to make this more closely identical to the situation here.

If you literally can't tell the difference between the two, then I think that kinda shows that ingame feats cannot be exaggerated.

Once again, I am asking you to show that ingame feats/functions are dramatized to the point of unusability. That one line of it being "dramatized" doesn't prove anything as I've shown above. As I've said before, being "dramatized" doesn't even inherently mean that it's exaggerated. If you can't, then we should just assume what we normally do for ingame stuff for verses.

I will respond later, as I am a bit burnt out from debating TF2 stuff. I apologize if I sounded agressive, and I apologize in advance for that as well.

 

[Abstractions]

And I've shown you how it couldn't be dramatized to the point of unusability. Do you actually have something else to back up this claim aside from jokes?

You haven't, you showed a one second clip from a recording to justify all gameplay being canon, which sounds ridiculous.

You are telling me to show you something that doesn't exist.

See point above. And I have yet to see you actually show that ingame stuff is dramatized to the point of unusability, when literally everything points to the other direction.

If the comics tell us the resource you are using is exaggerated and you justify it with a singular second of footage, that doesn't make the problem magically disappear.

It uses the exact same resources from TF2. Same animations, same particles, same models, everything. So it literally is impossible to exaggerate ingame feats and stuff since SFM literally uses the same resources.

You can't really say this though, if the comic explains that these things are exaggerated, that makes it so, regardless of your perception views it because we are directly told it is dramatized.

If anything, you are relying on this one single line that has little to no basis to it. It being dramatized doesn't even inherently mean that ingame stuff is exaggerated, it can just mean that the events are adapted into the game.

That is exactly what it is saying, it is saying the video-game documentary Team Fortress 2 is dramatized, therefore exaggerated. Not "x contents of the game exaggerated", the game is.

If you literally can't tell the difference between the two, then I think that kinda shows that ingame feats cannot be exaggerated.

This isn't an answer to the question, I need you to answer the question.

I will respond later, as I am a bit burnt out from debating TF2 stuff. I apologize if I sounded agressive, and I apologize in advance for that as well.

It's fine, take your time!

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

What proves the gameplay is non canon?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'm seconding Abstractions here. Use of gameplay models doesn't mitigate outright statements saying that gameplay is exaggerated and dramatized.

 

[The_Smashor]

Are there outright statements?

 

[Abstractions]

What proves the gameplay is non canon?

It's a quote from the comics themselves that throw up the idea that gameplay is exaggerated because it's a dramatization of events.

 

[The_Smashor]

That implies that Team Fortress 2 is a video game. In the 1970s. And that there was a video game based on the entire gravel wars.

99% sure that was just a 4th wall breaking reference that's not supposed to mean anything. And even if it does mean something, it implies that the entire 120 year Gravel Wars are in TF2, rather than just the most recent mercs, meaning the Team Fortress 2 they're referring to might be a completely different Team Fortress 2 than the one we have in real life.

 

[TheGatememer]

I won’t be replying to this thread for a few days, but I’ll type out a message to make my arguments for 9-A more clear, and to address the whole canon thing sooner or later.

 

[Abstractions]

Team Fortress 2 they're referring to might be a completely different Team Fortress 2 than the one we have in real life.

It doesn't imply that at all, it directly says the game is a dramatization, the game being Team Fortress 2, the game we play, there's no reason to assume it means something else.

That implies that Team Fortress 2 is a video game. In the 1970s.

In their eyes it can be, yeah. Just because it doesn't translate to that in reality due to us existing in the 2000s doesn't make the statement less plausible.

I won’t be replying to this thread for a few days, but I’ll type out a message to make my arguments for 9-A more clear, and to address the whole canon thing sooner or later.

Take your time, just note that I'd still like you to answer my question for when you do respond.

 

[The_Smashor]

Not really.

Saxton Hale is the narrator of the scene. It wasn't some omniscient 3rd person narrator. Not to mention literally nothing but this one-off statement implies gameplay isn't usable, while stuff other users have shown implies it is.

Also, it's called a documentary.

 

[Abstractions]

Not really.

"As dramatized in the documentary video game - Team Fortress 2!"

This is a direct statement that it is a dramatization, as that is what it says.

Saxton Hale is the narrator of the scene. It wasn't some omniscient 3rd person narrator. Not to mention literally nothing but this one-off statement implies gameplay isn't usable, while stuff other users have shown implies it is.

Him not being an omniscient narrator doesn't magically make him not credible whatsoever, you'd need direct evidence for that.

A singular clip of a recording that plays for one second vs. a direct statement from what is considered TF2's story.

Also, it's called a documentary.

Refer to above.

 

[The_Smashor]

Here's the thing: Hale literally cannot possibly be referring to the actual TF2 released in the modern day.

 

[Abstractions]

Here's the thing: Hale literally cannot possibly be referring to the actual TF2 released in the modern day.

It exists as both a fourth wall break and commentary on the game's canonicity, you cannot magically stretch it to not be talking about the very game the verse is a part of.

 

[The_Smashor]

4th wall breaking is not common in TF2. Hale has done something similar to 4th wall breaking, but is always referring to his own products. Meaning that the TF2 he's referring to has to be something made by Mann Co that we cannot possibly assume are the exact same.

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with Abstractions too.

 

[The_Smashor]

Also, Valve in general has a hands off approach when it comes to TF2 lore. I genuinely cannot see Valve caring about the lore enough to decanonize gameplay.

 

[TheGatememer]

Take your time, just note that I'd still like you to answer my question for when you do respond.

Yea I will

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Also, Valve in general has a hands off approach when it comes to TF2 lore. I genuinely cannot see Valve caring about the lore enough to decanonize gameplay.

Yeah, No Heavy update, and no 7th comic or hell the idea of a TV series expanding the lore/popularity was not even fully taken advantage of in the slightest.

 

[Livinmeme]

Agree on this....

damn you made it first before i did

 

[Livinmeme]

Oh also wouldnt they be High 8-C because in MVM they can tank the explosion of the tank without tanking any damage?

 

[Abstractions]

Meaning that the TF2 he's referring to has to be something made by Mann Co that we cannot possibly assume are the exact same.

So your assertion is that he's not only not referring to the very game itself "Team Fortress 2" but that he's instead talking about a random product for Mann Co., a company that produces munitions and not video games, in what is a 4th wall breaking catch up sequence for the story?

And for some reason that makes more sense to you than him just talking about the game the story/comic is attached to?

Also, Valve in general has a hands off approach when it comes to TF2 lore. I genuinely cannot see Valve caring about the lore enough to decanonize gameplay.

They cared about the lore and story enough to make comics in the first place.

 

[Livinmeme]

Doesnt was he refering to the team not the game?

 

[Livinmeme]

Still the gameplay still works as a canon sometimes sometimes it has contradictions but most of the time they are oversigths, but still canon and that has been proved several times across the game,the comics and the meet the team so...