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Team Fortress 9-A Upgrade

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Please do not discuss anything else but the 9-A rating. I don't want this to devolve into a mess like the other threads.

Addressing the whole "dramatization" argument/canon stuff

The quote being used to argue that gameplay is non-canon is from the Catch-Up Comic, where Saxton Hale says this:


However, there are several issues with this. Starting with the fact that this entire comic is just supposed to be giant fourth wall break. The main point of this comic is to catch up the reader (aka us) on significant events that have happened in the TF story line. What further supports this is the fact that Mann Co. doesn't even make or sell video games. Were this an in universe comic, this would make absolutely no sense. Not to mention the very last page literally has Saxton Hale telling the reader to click to go to the next page. So this really just seems to be a nod to the game and reader, rather than Valve telling everyone "HEY THE GAME IS NON CANON BTW". either way its not like valve gives a sht about TF2 let alone its canon

Also, the word "dramatized" can have several definitions. Yes, it can mean exaggerating, but it can also just mean adapting an event into something, like a book or play. In this case, its a videogame. Not to mention, it is also supposed to be a "documentary video game", which means that its supposed to be, well documentary.

What I'm trying to say is that this sentence by itself can have numerous meanings, and it doesn't necessarily mean that it is exaggerating events in the TF2 storyline, but rather it can also mean documenting them by adapting it into a video game. Considering the fact that dramatized doesn't necessarily mean exaggeration, and the fact that its stated to be a documentary video game, even assuming that this is anything more than a simple 4th wall break, gameplay being exaggerated seems unlikely at best.

Perhaps one of the biggest things that shows dramatized =/= exaggeration in TF2 is that TF2 itself doesn't equate the two words; Quite the opposite actually. This is shown in the comic, "The Insult That Made A "Jarate Master" Out of Sniper". This is what is said in the comic:


This clearly shows that TF2 doesn't equate dramatized to exaggeration. It clearly shows in this comic, that despite it being called "dramatized", it actually happened. The comic goes into detail how it happened the same way it is portrayed in the comics, like when it says that the "time lapse" between panels four and five wasn't time lapse, but rather Sniper learning Jarate in a matter of seconds. This shows that even though it was described as being "dramatized", nothing in the comic was an exaggeration, and the events in the comics literally happened the same way the event unfolded.

Now, does this say anything about the Video Game TF2? No. But what it does show is that the word "dramatized" doesn't inherently mean exaggeration in TF2. Going by it's actual definitions, and how TF2 uses the word directly shows that their use of the word doesn't mean exaggeration.

Coupled with the fact that again, A. SFM (aka the TF2 videos) literally uses the same assets as TF2, so they literally use the same models and animations, and visible feats like explosions and what not are literally impossible to exaggerate there, B. The comics, as well as some other stuff confirming some in game stuff being canon (like Jarate making enemies take extra damage), C. An actual video recording from Expiration Date literally showing gameplay footage, even while assuming that the Catch-Up comic isn't just a fourth wall break, it shows that the game is supposed to be an accurate recreation of the events that happened in the TF2 Storyline. Hence why its called a "documentary" video game. And by accurate, I mean practically the same due to the previous reasons. (Not including game mechanics/glitches, obviously. Source Spaghet still haunts me to this day)

So unless there is solid proof that gameplay is exaggerated to the point of unusability, this line on its own means nothing when literally everything points the other direction, and that the word "dramatized" doesn't even inherently mean "exaggeration", going by both its actual definitions, and TF2 itself not equating the two, and even going as far as to say that a "dramatized event" happening the exact same way portrayed in the comic. So in short, we should just treat TF2 ingame stuff the same way we do for literally any other verse.

And while we are on the topic of canon, I'd figured I'd bring up community created stuff. Just because something is community created doesn't inherently mean its non-canon. Community created stuff has been shown to be canon, like the Huo Long Heater, a community-created weapon, which is shown in the comics. Like a VERY LARGE portion of the game is community created. (or the spycrab) That being said, it isn't to say EVERYTHING is canon, but I'm just saying that being community created isn't enough to warrant it being non-canon by itself. It should be a case-by-case basis.

Arguments for 9-A


Here are a list of feats that are going to support my 9-A argument as I explain them further down:

Pre-MvM:
  1. Soldier Rockets (0.00165 tons)
  2. Scout survives an explosion (0.007 tons)
MvM/Post MvM
  1. Sir Nukesalot's Explosions (0.0248 tons)
  2. Giants surviving Sentry Buster Explosions (0.09486 tons)
  3. Pyro (possibly) survives an explosion (0.0658 tons)
Soldier Rockets:

So to start off small, lets take a look at Soldier's Rockets. They are listed as 0.00165 tons individually atm. Now you might say that this is just Wall level, and you would be correct. However, the baseline for Small Building level is 0.005 tons. If we divide 0.005 by 0.00165, we get approximately that baseline 9-A is 3.03 x superior to Soldier Rockets. Baseline 9-A is just barely 3 times superior to Soldier Rockets.
If we take a look at Meet the Soldier, we see Soldier casually tank one with no issues whatsoever. He didn't even flinch or take any noticeable damage. This is consistent with the fact that Soldier can casually one-shot ordinary people, who in the past, all had to rocket jump to get to the second floor. However, this in itself is a supporting feat, as, well its just a 9-B feat. What I'm trying to say is that Soldier is far superior to, and can casually tank something that is only around 3 times less than baseline 9-A.

Meet the Medic Explosion:

Now, lets look at the infamous Scout feat. As seen in this video, Scout survives an explosion, which has been calced at 0.007 tons. A common argument against this is that Scout doesn't scale to the explosion, since he nearly died.
However, there are several issues with this. Starting with the fact that Scout was already injured beforehand as seen by his bruises and bandages, and how he took a direct rocket beforehand. Despite this, Scout actually wasn't in critical condition from the explosion itself, but only got knocked out after hitting his face on the window. This is shown by Scout literally screaming at the top of his lungs and flailing his limps like crazy, rather than just being like this after being hit by the explosion. Someone that "nearly died" from the explosion itself would barely be conscious, let alone be able to move their limbs around like crazy without issue.
On top of all of this, Scout is heavily implied to be the weakest Mercenary physically. Seeing how Soldier casually overpowers Scout on several occasions. Not to mention, Scout is the only merc that is unable to instantly destroy the Yeti prop. It would also explain his insecurity about his strength. So despite Scout, the weakest mercenary physically being injured beforehand, was able to survive a 9-A explosion. And I already showed how he wasn't knocked out by the explosion itself, but only after he hit his face on the glass. This is consistent with the former feat of Soldier being unharmed by an explosion 3x weaker than baseline 9-A.

Even if we only used the calc that resulted in 0.004 tons, my point still stands as, well I mean cmon. Its less than 0.001 tons away from baseline 9-A.

Sir Nukesalot's Explosions:

Now, lets take a look at Sir Nukesalot's explosions. I know an argument against this will be that the mercs don't scale to it since they get one-shot by it. And, well you would actually be right about that. The base mercenaries get one-shot by his bombs. However, the Mercs with resistances ARE able to survive them. Well, kinda.
The thing about the Loose Cannon is that ingame, the damage is pretty inconsistent, and there is stuff like damage fall off involved. But assuming that the Mercs have full blast, and crit resistance, while right on top of the Bomb, as seen in this video, it deals around 149 damage. So The Soldier, Demoman, Pyro, Medic, Engineer (with the Gunslinger, but he always has it equipped anyways since he replaced one of his hands with it), and Heavy should all be able to survive it. And the 2nd Explosion in the video (while not right on top of the bomb, its pretty close) it deals around 118 damage, which is enough for all classes to survive, sans a Sandman Scout, and Big Earner or Kunai Spy.
And yes, the Upgrades are probably canon, since A: The Projectile Shield, an Upgrade in MvM is literally shown in The Sound of Medicine, B: There are voicelines where the Administrator tells the Mercs to get to an upgrade station, and C: There being posters explaining the Upgrades, and it being confirmed there are upgrade stations in Mann. Co Buildings. Mind you, most of the posters you see are a direct continuation of the MvM Comic, with either Saxton or Soldier explaining them in some of the posters. And I've already explained how gameplay is canon previously.

Either way, even if the Upgrades aren't canon, what this shows is that the base mercs on their own are capable of surviving 9-A (0.007 tons), or near baseline 9-A (0.004 tons) explosions, and with upgrades, can survive explosions higher into 9-A (0.0248 tons), which shows its consistent.

Sentry Busters:

This one is fairly straight forward. Even if the Mercs themselves cannot survive Sentry Buster explosions, some of the weakest Giant Robots can, like the Giant Scout seen in this video. And as also seen in the video, the Mercs can harm and kill said Giants.
It might look like the Scout got harmed by the Demo's Stickies, but if you look at it frame by frame, you can actually see that it got harmed right as the Sentry Buster exploded.

Pyro Surviving an Explosion

This one is frankly more of a supporting feat. In the Comics, Pyro survived an explosion that has been recalced, and accepted as 0.0658 tons, which is Small Building level. An argument against this may be that Pyro may not even have been in the building, but that cannot be the case.
For starters, Pyro was in the building in the last panel we saw him before the building exploded. In the panel right after, we see the outside of the building, but Pyro is nowhere to be seen. Since the Building is in a close off space, there is no possible way he could've gotten out the back or anything, as, well it's closed off. And most importantly, to assume that he escaped the building would be HEAVILY out of character for Pyro. Pyro LOVES fire, and he sees it as rainbows and happiness, not to mention seeing everyone, including enemies as friendly babies. So assuming he strategically escaped the building to avoid the fire, is not only unrealistic, but heavily contradictory to his character.
Now one argument I won't deny is that we don't know where exactly he was in the building when it exploded, whether he jumped down or not. I personally think he probably did, since he sees enemies as friendly babies, he is very much a "in your face" kind of class, and the fact that it would be hard to point something long like the flamethrower in the position he is without falling down, or being in an awkward position. But again, I don't have proof of this, and he very well could've stayed in the position he was last seen in.
Another argument that may be made against this is that this is much further into 9-A making it inconsistent. Well, for starters, this is AFTER the events of MvM, so the mercenaries very well could've gotten stronger by the end of the Robot War. Another thing to bring up is that the fact they are Soulless, which may or may not be a factor in how they got stronger. TFC Heavy states that the TF2 Mercs are basically complete jokes, which leaves him incredibly confused as to how they (the TFC mercs) are losing. Medic later explains that the reason they (the TF2 mercs) won is because they don't have souls. The fact that they got stronger as a result of losing their souls seems likely, since well TFC Heavy did state that the Mercs were complete jokes in the Mercenary world, and prior to facing the TF2 team, beat a stronger group hired by the Administrator, which left the Administrator with just "the rejects". This implies that Medic stole their souls probably sometime around the events of Mann vs Machine, as the Mercenaries wouldn't really be considered jokes if they were this powerful during the events of the Gravel Wars.

TL;DR:

So we can see that TF2 has plenty of 9-A feats which aren't outliers. For starters, Scout, the weakest mercenary physically, who was injured was able to survive a near baseline 9-A explosion (regardless of which calc you use), which is consistent with Soldier being completely unscathed by explosions that are only around 3x weaker than baseline 9-A, and him casually being able to overpower Scout, and one-shot people who all had to rocket jump to get to the 2nd floor in the past. This is also consistent with the Mercenaries being able to survive explosions by Sir Nukesalot, which are higher into 9-A if they have resistances. We also see other 9-A feats like them being able to harm and kill giants, which can survive Sentry Buster Explosions. Last but not least, the Mercenaries are implied to have been amped by having their souls removed, as they were considered complete jokes in the mercenary world, yet were able to defeat the Classic Team, who killed a stronger group hired by the administrator.

Even if we remove all gameplay feats, we still have a concrete 9-A feat from Scout in Meet the Medic, which is consistent with Soldier casually tanking explosions only 3x weaker than baseline 9-A. There is also the supporting feat of Pyro potentially surviving a higher-into 9-A explosion, which is consistent with Scout, the weakest mercenary, while injured could survive the 9-A explosion, so if he was at his peak, he would be able to take it better. And again, they are implied to have been amped by being soulless.

This is how I plan for the profiles to be organized if this is goes through.

Including both gameplay + comics/videos


Attack Potency: At least Wall level, likely Small Building level (Capable of harming Scout, who can survive Soldier's rockets, and a giant explosion) | Small Building level (Stronger than before. Can harm Robot Giants such as Super Scouts, who can survive Sentry Buster explosions. Should be comparable to their durability. Despite being called "the laughing stock in the mercenary world", becoming soulless allowed them to defeat the Team Fortress Classic team, who defeated the Administrator's best echelon, Team Vanguard, which left her with "just the rejects")

Durability: At least Wall level, likely Small Building level (Can survive explosives such as Pipe Grenades and Rockets. Physically superior to Scout, who while injured, survived this) | Small Building level (Stronger than before due to becoming soulless. Capable of surviving Sir Nukesalot's explosions, which are this strong. Comparable to Pyro, who possibly survived a building exploding)

Key: Gravel War | Robot War/Australium Chase

Excluding gameplay


Attack Potency: At least Wall level, likely Small Building level (Capable of harming Scout, who can survive Soldier's rockets, and a giant explosion) | Likely Small Building level (Stronger than before. Despite being called "the laughing stock in the mercenary world", becoming soulless allowed them to defeat the Team Fortress Classic team, who defeated the Administrator's best echelon, Team Vanguard, which left her with "just the rejects")

Durability: At least Wall level, likely Small Building level (Can survive explosives such as Pipe Grenades and Rockets. Physically superior to Scout, who while injured, survived this) | Likely Small Building level (Stronger than before due to becoming soulless. Comparable to Pyro, who possibly survived a building exploding)

Key: Gravel War | Robot War/Australium Chase
 
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WeeklyBattles

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This is the first time the first point has been brought up.
Its not actually, Pyro's feat was brought up way back in the original downgrade thread, its not legitimate due to it being a mix of a chain reaction of explosives and Pyro's proximity to the heart of the explosion being unknown, the former which wouldnt be a viable feat to use and the latter which would knock the result down to 9-B
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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The first feat looks okay. I may question some validity if there are mentions of gasoline/chain reactions. Gas explosions are usually mostly heat and not real explosions. But the grenade he tanked at point blank range, so he may scale to from the potency of that one.

I'm still iffy about the whole, "He was hospitalized but survived" as a legit durability feat, but I'm fine with using it if the 1st one already has been used.

I'm still strongly against using the Cow Mangler in the durability example. Not just because of the nature of, "It literally vaporizes them" but it's also a heat based weapon that would at best scale to heat resistance and would not blunt force trauma. Also, using the HP system was also brought up and still rejected.

Sentry Busters, I know DMUA said in the blog everyone gets one-shotted. Where are is it said people have survived them?

Not the biggest fan of fodder characters being downscaled from a boss character who is regularly seen as overwhelmingly stronger than the cast considering he kills everyone in 1-2 hits.

Conclusion, I'm actually okay with a likely 9-A upgrade this time, but I'd prefer to only use point one and possibly 2 in the actual profiles. Meramus and a few others also could be 9-A outright as a result.
 
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The first feat looks okay. I may question some validity if there are mentions of gasoline/chain reactions. Gas explosions are usually mostly heat and not real explosions. But the grenade he tanked at point blank range, so he may scale to from the potency of that one.
While there was gasoline involved, it also seemed to be a building full of explosives, so it should still be around 9-A. I'd be fine with a "At least 9-B, likely 9-A" if it came to it. DMUA seemed to accept the calc also.
Sentry Busters, I know DMUA said in the blog everyone gets one-shotted. Where are is it said people have survived them?
It's shown to be possible from what I linked.
Conclusion, I'm actually okay with a likely 9-A upgrade this time, but I'd prefer to only use point one and possibly 2 in the actual profiles. Meramus and a few others also could be 9-A outright as a result.
Frankly, the first point is my main point, the rest are just supporting feats. (The 2nd one is somewhat of a second main point though)
 
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Its not actually, Pyro's feat was brought up way back in the original downgrade thread, its not legitimate due to it being a mix of a chain reaction of explosives and Pyro's proximity to the heart of the explosion being unknown, the former which wouldnt be a viable feat to use and the latter which would knock the result down to 9-B
I don't recall it being used in any downgrade thread. Pyro was in the building when it happened. He couldn't have been far enough away from the epicenter to the point where it gets knocked down to 9-B, as it is an incredibly tiny building.
 

WeeklyBattles

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Please do not discuss anything else but the 9-A rating. I don't want this to devolve into a mess like the other threads.

1. This calc shows Pyro tanking a 9-A explosion.
Said explosion was a chain reaction, not a singular explosion, and the fact that Pyro's proximity to the center of the explosion is not shown means that with surface area taken into account the feat would be reduced to 9-B as determined by the previous thread. Plus it was mostly gas, which is technically around Tier 8 levels of thermal energy, but thermal energy behaves much differently than overpressure does where it spreads and durability wise cannot exceed thermal equilibrium. And even with thermal equilibrium in mind, it would only be heat based and not translate to blunt force trauma.
2. This calc shows Scout surviving a 9-A explosion from Soldier's Rockets. While not the one used, judging by the comments on this calc, the one currently being used isn't necessarily more accurate, and more of a lowball.
Dargoo's calc was deemed inaccurate, hence the 9-B recalc and other rocket calcs that also yielded 9-B with even Schwxnz calcing the explosions in Meet the Medic to be 9-B.
3. TF2 characters can survive weapons that vaporize them if they are injured. I know this has been brought up in other threads, but this is more of a supporting feat than a main reason. I know it's been rejected in the past, as the mercs get vaporized by them if they are injured. However, TF2 doesn't follow this logic at all. In TF2, as long as you have enough health, you won't get vaporized by any weapons that vaporize you when you die by them. An example of TF2 not following this logic is when Heavy survived 2 pipe grenades, and appeared fine, but on the third one, he was reduced to pieces.
This has already been discussed to dath so i dont know why its even being brought up here. Pipe grenades were recalced to be 9-B as well
4. Under some circumstances, the mercs are capable of surviving Sentry Buster Explosions, which are rated as 9-A.
The mercs get oneshot by sentry busters, there is no reason for them to scale
5. The mercs consistently fight Merasmus, and can survive his attacks, which is listed as "likely 9-A"
Merasmus shouldnt even be 9-A seeing as he has no calc and the reason he's even listed as 9-A is because 'His magic is considerably stronger then the Soldier's rockets' which were calced at low to mid level 9-B
 
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Said explosion was a chain reaction, not a singular explosion,
seems to be a singular explosion
and the fact that Pyro's proximity to the center of the explosion is not shown means that with surface area taken into account the feat would be reduced to 9-B as determined by the previous thread.
It's a tiny building. Regardless of his position, he would still be very close to the epicenter. Judging by his position in the previous panel, its unlike he went that far anyways.
Plus it was mostly gas, which is technically around Tier 8 levels of thermal energy, but thermal energy behaves much differently than overpressure does where it spreads and durability wise cannot exceed thermal equilibrium. And even with thermal equilibrium in mind, it would only be heat based and not translate to blunt force trauma.
There was gas mention yes. But it was an ammunition shack, that is seen to have grenades and rockets.
Dargoo's calc was deemed inaccurate, hence the 9-B recalc
The comments on the current one don't seem to indicate that the current calc is any less accurate. In fact, Mr. Bambu even seems to say that the current one seems to be a bit of a lowball.
and other rocket calcs that also yielded 9-B with even Schwxnz calcing the explosions in Meet the Medic to be 9-B.
Both of those are different explosions.

The mercs get oneshot by sentry busters, there is no reason for them to scale
Already linked a thread showing that it is technically possible. It's more of a supporting feat anyhow.
Merasmus shouldnt even be 9-A seeing as he has no calc and the reason he's even listed as 9-A is because 'His magic is considerably stronger then the Soldier's rockets' which were calced at low to mid level 9-B
He's also 9-A due to being able to survive weapons that can vaporize the mercs.
 

WeeklyBattles

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So to summarize, the arguments for this 9-A upgrade are:
  • Scaling to a mechanically non-9-A explosion
  • Scaling to rockets that have had their 9-A calc rejected in favor of three 9-B calcs one of which is a recalc of the same 9-A feat
  • Scaling to weapons that vaporize them
  • Scaling to 9-B pipe bombs
  • Scaling to weapons that oneshot them
  • Scaling to a guy who has zero reason to be 9-A
 
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So to summarize, the arguments for this 9-A upgrade are:
  • Scaling to a mechanically non-9-A explosion
The calc is already accepted as 9-A.
  • Scaling to rockets that have had their 9-A calc rejected in favor of three 9-B calcs one of which is a recalc of the same 9-A feat
Two of them are completely different rocket feats. The current one has comments indicating it is no less accurate, and more of a lowball.
  • Scaling to weapons that vaporize them
TF2 doesn't follow that logic. They only get vaporized when injured enough. Already showed an example of TF2 not following similar logic.
  • Scaling to 9-B pipe bombs
Never argued pipe bombs were 9-A.
  • Scaling to weapons that oneshot them
Already showed that it is possible to survive the Sentry Buster.
  • Scaling to a guy who has zero reason to be 9-A
He can survive weapons that can vaporize injured mercs.
 
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9-A case doesn’t seem too strong based on Weekly’s arguments. I’m particularly strongly against scaling them to weapons that vaporize them.
It's an ammunition shack that has grenades and rockets. Gasoline was not the main factor of the explosion. It was a singular explosion, not multiple explosions like Weekly is saying.

I'm not getting too deep into the vaporizing weapons, as that isn't even my main point, but TF2 has shown to not follow the logic that if a weapon can vaporize/blast you into pieces you when injured, you will be vaporized/blown to pieces regardless.
 

WeeklyBattles

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seems to be a singular explosion

It's a tiny building. Regardless of his position, he would still be very close to the epicenter. Judging by his position in the previous panel, its unlike he went that far anyways.

There was gas mention yes. But it was an ammunition shack, that is seen to have grenades and rockets.
I mean that only further complicates things as not only would that make it virtually impossible to find the actual yield of the feat itself due to the mix of different factors put into it. Couple that with the fact that not only would this further support the rockets and grenades only being 9-B as an entire ammo shack of them exploding only yielded 9-A results, but Pyro tanking an entire shack of them when the mercs are pretty consistently seriously wounded by single rockets and grenades would more than likely make this feat an outlier if the method for finding it was possible.
The comments on the current one don't seem to indicate that the current calc is any less accurate. In fact, Mr. Bambu even seems to say that the current one seems to be a bit of a lowball.
It isnt a lowball, it is three calcs with consistent 9-B results
Both of those are different explosions.
Yet theyre the same rockets
Already linked a thread showing that it is technically possible. It's more of a supporting feat anyhow.
Its only possible with a fuck ton of buffs on Heavy and no one else
He's also 9-A due to being able to survive weapons that can vaporize the mercs.
Unless he has done so in the comics i dont believe we allow in-game damage scaling, could be wrong though. Then
 
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The first feat looks okay. I may question some validity if there are mentions of gasoline/chain reactions. Gas explosions are usually mostly heat and not real explosions. But the grenade he tanked at point blank range, so he may scale to from the potency of that one.
IIRC there were grenades in that room, you can see them in the boxes next to classic Scout and Soldier.
I'm still iffy about the whole, "He was hospitalized but survived" as a legit durability feat, but I'm fine with using it if the 1st one already has been used.
We'd probably have it as a high end, like we do with Luke Cage (Though unlike with Cage this would scale to AP since the mercs can damage each other). It should also be noted that Scout was already pretty damaged when he survived the explosion.
I'm still strongly against using the Cow Mangler in the durability example. Not just because of the nature of, "It literally vaporizes them" but it's also a heat based weapon that would at best scale to heat resistance and would not blunt force trauma. Also, using the HP system was also brought up and still rejected.
The Cow Mangler in particular would also probably be an outlier, since it's stated to atomize cows (and would also likely do so to people), which comes out at 8-B.
Sentry Busters, I know DMUA said in the blog everyone gets one-shotted. Where are is it said people have survived them?
I've survived them playing MvM, though it takes good Blast Resistance and I don't know the exact circumstances. Giants can also tank the blast even though it one shots regular robots. All in all, this feat in particular would only probably only apply to upgraded mercs.
Not the biggest fan of fodder characters being downscaled from a boss character who is regularly seen as overwhelmingly stronger than the cast considering he kills everyone in 1-2 hits.
Mercs die in 1-2 hits to things like Soldier Rockets and Demo Grenades. Killing in 1-2 hits is about equal to their AP. However, it's somewhat questionable if Merasmus should be 9-A in AP, given the only reason he's 9-A is upscaling from the mercs.
 

WeeklyBattles

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We'd probably have it as a high end, like we do with Luke Cage (Though unlike with Cage this would scale to AP since the mercs can damage each other). It should also be noted that Scout was already pretty damaged when he survived the explosion.
Dude. The rockets are 9-B. There is no '9-A high end' the high end is 9-B, stop pushing for a faulty calc that was rejected in favor of consistent 9-B feats for the rockets.
I've survived them playing MvM, though it takes good Blast Resistance and I don't know the exact circumstances. Giants can also tank the blast even though it one shots regular robots. All in all, this feat in particular would only probably only apply to upgraded mercs.
At best this would literally only apply to Heavy with specific max buffs and no one else. Hell technically it wouldnt even do that as it requires backup from medic.
 
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Dude. The rockets are 9-B. There is no '9-A high end' the high end is 9-B, stop pushing for a faulty calc that was rejected in favor of consistent 9-B feats for the rockets.
DMCA approved it and nobody has directly rejected it. Pretty sure the main reason the 9-B was more approved was because you wanted it to be and you were staff at the time.
At best this would literally only apply to Heavy with specific max buffs and no one else. Hell technically it wouldnt even do that as it requires backup from medic.
Like I said, Giants casually tank the blast and the mercs can damage them with upgrades. The Mercs are definitely glass cannons.
 

WeeklyBattles

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DMCA approved it and nobody has directly rejected it. Pretty sure the main reason the 9-B was more approved was because you wanted it to be and you were staff at the time.
DMUA also approved the 9-B calcs so you should probably take that up with him
 

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Already done

Also should remind that it was recently agreed that using gameplay stuff isnt viable so scaling the mercs to in-game merasmus and merasmus to the atomizing weapons wouldnt work
 
Please do not discuss anything else but the 9-A rating. I don't want this to devolve into a mess like the other threads.

1. This calc shows Pyro tanking a 9-A explosion.

2. This calc shows Scout surviving a 9-A explosion from Soldier's Rockets. While not the one used, judging by the comments on this calc, the one currently being used isn't necessarily more accurate, and more of a lowball.

3. TF2 characters can survive weapons that vaporize them if they are injured. I know this has been brought up in other threads, but this is more of a supporting feat than a main reason. I know it's been rejected in the past, as the mercs get vaporized by them if they are injured. However, TF2 doesn't follow this logic at all. In TF2, as long as you have enough health, you won't get vaporized by any weapons that vaporize you when you die by them. An example of TF2 not following this logic is when Heavy survived 2 pipe grenades, and appeared fine, but on the third one, he was reduced to pieces.

4. Under some circumstances, the mercs are capable of surviving Sentry Buster Explosions, which are rated as 9-A.

5. The mercs consistently fight Merasmus, and can survive his attacks, which is listed as "likely 9-A"
I agree with. however given the philosophy here is currently not as promising for vapor.
 
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Already done

Also should remind that it was recently agreed that using gameplay stuff isnt viable so scaling the mercs to in-game merasmus and merasmus to the atomizing weapons wouldnt work
I mean, Merasmus in lore is threatened by... well... basically every nation's mafia. To the point of it being a fairly consistent plot point.
Its already been thoroughly explaine why this stuff isnt legit
Not everyone takes your word as gospel, Weekly.
 
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Okay but has he shown in the lore to have tanked the 9-A weapons?
Not really to my knowledge, though it's been a while since I've read the comics.
Its not just me its Medeus as well
I just got here, could you tell me where Medeus said they disagreed with literally the entire thread? Because to my knowledge they're at worst "Maybe" with points 1 and 2.
 

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2. This calc shows Scout surviving a 9-A explosion from Soldier's Rockets. While not the one used, judging by the comments on this calc, the one currently being used isn't necessarily more accurate, and more of a lowball.
I disagree with you considering the one we currently use as a lowball, only because we find reason to scale the mercenaries with things they do to BLU team, like Scout wrestling a Heavy or Soldier killing a Spy with a shovel swing, and we know based off Meet the Soldier that a single direct hit from one of Soldier's rockets will gib a BLU Heavy.

Either we take away the LS and some of the scaling justifications, which would in turn make them more consistently the lower tier, or we keep them and acknowledge the strongest member of the team not being able to survive one of these rockets fully.

There's also the fact he was still critically injured after the fact.

3. TF2 characters can survive weapons that vaporize them if they are injured. I know this has been brought up in other threads, but this is more of a supporting feat than a main reason. I know it's been rejected in the past, as the mercs get vaporized by them if they are injured. However, TF2 doesn't follow this logic at all. In TF2, as long as you have enough health, you won't get vaporized by any weapons that vaporize you when you die by them. An example of TF2 not following this logic is when Heavy survived 2 pipe grenades, and appeared fine, but on the third one, he was reduced to pieces.
I wouldn't attempt to justify such a thing with HP mechanics.

You also can't really use them being vaporized as a supporting feat when all things considered would render it an anti-feat.

4. Under some circumstances, the mercs are capable of surviving Sentry Buster Explosions, which are rated as 9-A.
This is a bit misleading as you indicate that all of the mercs would be capable of this, but it in fact is just the Heavy with overheal from Medic with weapons that provide damage reduction and questionable MvM upgrades.

Again with the anti-feats, we see a Heavy getting gibbed by Soldier's rockets, a combination of sticky mines, and those pipe bombs even you wouldn't deny as being 9-B.

Not to be disrespectful, I just believe this one reaches a bit too much.

5. The mercs consistently fight Merasmus, and can survive his attacks, which is listed as "likely 9-A"
He technically shouldn't even be 9-A at all just for the reasoning given, but if want further justification as to why mercs should not scale to this at all is the fact he's a raid boss style character, one that requires two whole teams to take down. He isn't some regular enemy the mercenaries are at all comparable to.
 

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Yeah actually! One Explosive the verse uses was enough to vapor the older Classic Pyro.

That was one... Imagine the whole stack of explosives as seen in pyro explosion.
Hmm, okay so two things:

1. This confirms that no one scales to the grenades seeing as he was literally vaporized in his own suit

2. You could definitely argue for 9-A suit heat resistance from this and the other Pyro feat but it wouldnt be a flat durability feat due to the aforementioned vaporization of pyro themselves

Good find but still wouldnt be above 9-B for their actual durability
 

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We talked about it on Discord, I apparently did not know the 1st one was also brought up in the past at the time. There are like a bunch of gasoline barrels which appears to be where most of the fireball radius stuff comes from rather than the grenade. The grenade he does tank, but there's still skepticism to imply the actual explosion is 9-A to begin with.
 
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what about the Cowmangler and other weapons vaporizing robots. I think I saw a calc for high 8-C
also the short circuit vaporizing rockets and other projectiles
 

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I don't see exposed surface area taken into account for either of these calcs. Accounting for that would likely reduce the durability results down to 9-B.
 
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I mean that only further complicates things as not only would that make it virtually impossible to find the actual yield of the feat itself due to the mix of different factors put into it.
Not really, only one guy was covered in gas. It would be a different story if the entire perimeter of the building was covered in gas, but that isn't the case.
Couple that with the fact that not only would this further support the rockets and grenades only being 9-B as an entire ammo shack of them exploding only yielded 9-A results, but Pyro tanking an entire shack of them when the mercs are pretty consistently seriously wounded by single rockets and grenades would more than likely make this feat an outlier if the method for finding it was possible.
A wounded scout is capable of taking multiple rockets without dying. TF2 is inconsistent anyhow, hence why I'm fine with a "likely/possibly 9-A".
It isnt a lowball, it is three calcs with consistent 9-B results

Yet theyre the same rockets
One of them had 3 rockets, the others had 1. The one that evaluated the calc even said that it was a lowball.
Its only possible with a fuck ton of buffs on Heavy and no one else
No, Demos with shields, soldier with the backup, medic with the vac, and spy with the deadringer can also survive it
Unless he has done so in the comics i dont believe we allow in-game damage scaling, could be wrong though. Then
This is kind of a double standard. We don't require this kind of stuff for other verses.
 
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I disagree with you considering the one we currently use as a lowball, only because we find reason to scale the mercenaries with things they do to BLU team, like Scout wrestling a Heavy or Soldier killing a Spy with a shovel swing, and we know based off Meet the Soldier that a single direct hit from one of Soldier's rockets will gib a BLU Heavy.

Either we take away the LS and some of the scaling justifications, which would in turn make them more consistently the lower tier, or we keep them and acknowledge the strongest member of the team not being able to survive one of these rockets fully.
I mean, TF2 isn't consistent. Hence why I suggested the 9-A rating be a "likely" or "possibly"
There's also the fact he was still critically injured after the fact.
He was flailing around after being hit by the explosion, but only seemed to be "critically injured" after he hit his face on the window. I should also mention that the accepted end of the calc is just barely below 9-A. It really shouldn't be that big of a stretch to say that Pyro, who is physically stronger than scout, in normal condition, should be able to survive a 9-A explosion considering the fact that Scout while injured, could survive a slightly below baseline 9-A explosion.
I wouldn't attempt to justify such a thing with HP mechanics.

You also can't really use them being vaporized as a supporting feat when all things considered would render it an anti-feat.
It's not really an HP mechanic when it is a thing in cutscenes.
This is a bit misleading as you indicate that all of the mercs would be capable of this, but it in fact is just the Heavy with overheal from Medic with weapons that provide damage reduction and questionable MvM upgrades.
This is more of a supporting feat, but there are several MVM mercs capable of surviving it. (Demo with shield, soldier with backup, med with vac, heavy with natascha/brass beast/fists of steel, and spy with the dead ringer)
Again with the anti-feats, we see a Heavy getting gibbed by Soldier's rockets, a combination of sticky mines, and those pipe bombs even you wouldn't deny as being 9-B.
We see characters in fiction dying from things that shouldn't kill them all the time. Like how Mario can die from Bomb-omb's explosions, which shouldn't be more than tier 8. Or the Endgame Terrarian dying from regular landmines/explosions. Yet we don't downgrade them based off that. The fact is we see that the mercs are capable, or scale to people who can survive 9-A explosion(s).
He technically shouldn't even be 9-A at all just for the reasoning given, but if want further justification as to why mercs should not scale to this at all is the fact he's a raid boss style character, one that requires two whole teams to take down. He isn't some regular enemy the mercenaries are at all comparable to.
They can still survive his attacks. This is more of a supporting feat anyways, so I'm fine if this point is thrown out
 
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I mean, TF2 isn't consistent with it's feats. Hence why I suggested the 9-A rating be a "likely" or "possibly"
I'd say the range they are portrayed at is rather consistent, which is lower-end superhuman that can still be killed by rockets.

He was flailing around after being hit by the explosion, but only seemed to be "critically injured" after he hit his face on the window. I should also mention that the accepted end of the calc is just barely below 9-A. It really shouldn't be that big of a stretch to say that Pyro, who is physically stronger than scout, in normal condition, should be able to survive a 9-A explosion considering the fact that Scout while injured, could survive a slightly below baseline 9-A explosion.
I wouldn't discount his injury purely based off him being launched and then landing, you put it in quotations as if it isn't fact that he was completely out of commission until Medic showed up.

It's not really an HP mechanic when it is a thing in cutscenes.
It is an HP mechanic, as that's how it works in the game, Heavy's condition after the final explosive doesn't suddenly change this.

This is more of a supporting feat, but there are several MVM mercs capable of surviving it. (Demo with shield, soldier with backup, med with vac, heavy with natascha/brass beast/fists of steel, and spy with the dead ringer)
Demo with shield and Soldier actually wouldn't survive this, as they don't receive enough damage reduction or resistance from it, the other three I believe are a gamble and it has to be the hit that forces the cloak to possibly survive it.

We see characters in fiction dying from things that shouldn't kill them all the time. Like how Mario can die from Bomb-omb's explosions, which shouldn't be more than tier 8. Or the Endgame Terrarian dying from regular landmines/explosions. Yet we don't downgrade them based off that. The fact is we see that the mercs are capable, or scale to people who can survive 9-A explosion(s).
The problem with these is that the scale is much different or there's progression, context is important and whataboutism doesn't exactly change the fact much less has been shown to kill them and the people they scale from regularly,
 

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A wounded scout is capable of taking multiple rockets without dying. TF2 is inconsistent anyhow, hence why I'm fine with a "likely/possibly 9-A".
Not dying = scaling. Ive brought this up in the past but this is like saying an irl person who steps on a landmine and gets their leg blown off is 9-B because they didnt immediately die.
This is kind of a double standard. We don't require this kind of stuff for other verses.
We do though? Pretty much every game verse in which lore and game are separate gets this treatment
 
We see characters in fiction dying from things that shouldn't kill them all the time. Like how Mario can die from Bomb-omb's explosions, which shouldn't be more than tier 8. Or the Endgame Terrarian dying from regular landmines/explosions. Yet we don't downgrade them based off that. The fact is we see that the mercs are capable, or scale to people who can survive 9-A explosion(s).
On top of that if its cutscenes you want well yeah Solider literally catapults himself with these point blank 24/7.
 
I think TF2 would be 9-B in durability and 9-A in AP either normally or with upgrades, since they can damage Giants who can tank Sentry Buster explosions.
If that's how it is then maybe there could be a compromise of sorts, But just maybe the upgraded versions seems likely 9-A as they are much stronger.
 

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DMUA also approved the 9-B calcs so you should probably take that up with him
Yeah and?

I still personally think there's enough evidence towards 9-A I just also think that some calcs are 9-B.

Scout tanking several rockets at once is the former. Just because in-game explosions for a single rocket are smaller doesn't mean much.
 

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Yeah and?

I still personally think there's enough evidence towards 9-A I just also think that some calcs are 9-B.

Scout tanking several rockets at once is the former. Just because in-game explosions for a single rocket are smaller doesn't mean much.
He didnt 'tank' them though, a single rocket landing near him maimed him into incapacitation

And its not just in-game explosions, the explosions in the lore are that small as well
 
He didnt 'tank' them though, a single rocket landing near him maimed him into incapacitation

And its not just in-game explosions, the explosions in the lore are that small as well
Yet by that shrewd logic Solider couldn't even handle one rocket and not be able to walk from his own rocket jumps... which he does in cutscenes, he's fine from using one rocket on himself.
 
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I wouldn't discount his injury purely based off him being launched and then landing, you put it in quotations as if it isn't fact that he was completely out of commission until Medic showed up.
The point I was trying to make is that Scout, while previously injured and took one rocket before hand, could take a near 9-A explosion, and was still able to flail around. Now take Pyro, who is stronger than Scout, while in normal condition was able to take a 9-A explosion. Point is, it shouldn't be that uncontroversial of a rating if an already injured scout can take a near 9-A explosion.
It is an HP mechanic, as that's how it works in the game, Heavy's condition after the final explosive doesn't suddenly change this.
It does, as it shows that the mercs can take explosions and look fine, only to explode into bits from the next one.
Demo with shield and Soldier actually wouldn't survive this, as they don't receive enough damage reduction or resistance from it, the other three I believe are a gamble and it has to be the hit that forces the cloak to possibly survive it.
I'll try experimenting if I can later on.
 
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Not dying = scaling. Ive brought this up in the past but this is like saying an irl person who steps on a landmine and gets their leg blown off is 9-B because they didnt immediately die.
The point I'm trying to make is that an already injured scout was able to survive a near 9-A explosion, and that it should be uncontroversial for someone who is stronger than scout, while in normal condition to survive a 9-A explosion.
We do though? Pretty much every game verse in which lore and game are separate gets this treatment
Uh not really. Hence why lots of game characters have MHS reactions for dodging lightning attacks in gameplay, while it hasn't been shown in cutscenes.
 
The point I'm trying to make is that an already injured scout was able to survive a near 9-A explosion, and that it should be uncontroversial for someone who is stronger than scout, while in normal condition to survive a 9-A explosion.
And again Solider who he scales is madcap son of a bitch to use these same Rockets beforehand and be fine, he can survive plenty until throwing the towel.
Uh not really. Hence why lots of game characters have MHS reactions for dodging lightning attacks in gameplay, while it hasn't been shown in cutscenes.
Hence why I mentioned the other verse beforehand.
 

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Not dying = scaling. Ive brought this up in the past but this is like saying an irl person who steps on a landmine and gets their leg blown off is 9-B because they didnt immediately die.
But Scout doesn't have his leg blown off, or take much noticable damage at all. The most we see is a black eye, a knocked out tooth, and the fact he's knocked out. That's far removed from having a chunk of his body oblitherated.
 

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In game stuff is denied for MVM vaporization bots yet Fortnite who has in game rating's do is kinda bullshit mate.
I feel like this is heavily context dependent.

Here we have Team Fortress 2 where the game's canonicity is put into question by being considered a dramatization of events in the comics, where the main idea for scaling comes from a flashy death animation that implies vaporization of targets (drastically overtaxing their durability) in gameplay with the help of HP game mechanics, when mercenaries are regularly put down by much less.

Compare this to Fortnite where lore is much more minimalistic and the gameplay is entirely about constructions/battle-royale, where one can harvest their entire surroundings for resources if need be, which is more akin to something like Minecraft. Breaking down walls is a majority of the core gameplay so the ratings end up reflecting that, from what I'm seeing.

Again, you should take this up with the person who actually gave the ratings.

It does, as it shows that the mercs can take explosions and look fine, only to explode into bits from the next one.
Him being injured but intact at one moment and then not the next doesn't discount HP game mechanics being a thing. I'm going to require more evidence for that.

I'll try experimenting if I can later on.
For transparency, this is the post I read on the subject.
 
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Not dying = scaling. Ive brought this up in the past but this is like saying an irl person who steps on a landmine and gets their leg blown off is 9-B because they didnt immediately die.
  1. I think you mean not dying =/= scaling. Also, one of our infamously conservative comic profiles literally use that logic (Albeit it's an absolute peak)
  2. Scout physically pretty much in tact, his leg didn't get blown off, he survived for several minutes until he was healed by Medic, he might not have even been knocked unconscious given his eye was open the exact second the Medigun beam was on him.
 

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But Scout doesn't have his leg blown off, or take much noticable damage at all. The most we see is a black eye, a knocked out tooth, and the fact he's knocked out. That's far removed from having a chunk of his body oblitherated.
He did though? He was audibly screaming in pain and hunched over holding his midsection
 
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Little late but I agree with likely/possible 9-A

Fod the vaporization stuff, is common in fiction, even in games, for dead bodies to be super fragile compared to them alive, even down to human level.

I think I played some games where you can't gib people with bullets and blades, but once their bodies die, you can rip them apart for the hell of it.

In tf2, they die, their bodies become "ragdolls", and the effects happen.

I agree merasmus and the sentry buster shouldn't be taken into account since one is broke and the other requires resistance building.

Disagree with the shack explosions being heat based, there was bombs there, and the old mercs shouldn't scale physically to the mercs, but below them.

Also, i think we can scale the others to the classic pyro suit since modern pyro uses one as well and I'm pretty sure their equipment is better, although I'm skeptical on this, the grenade itself is fine to scale though.
 
I feel like this is heavily context dependent.

Here we have Team Fortress 2 where the game's canonicity is put into question by being considered a dramatization of events in the comics, where the main idea for scaling comes from a flashy death animation that implies vaporization of targets (drastically overtaxing their durability) in gameplay with the help of HP game mechanics, when mercenaries are regularly put down by much less.

Compare this to Fortnite where lore is much more minimalistic and the gameplay is entirely about constructions/battle-royale, where one can harvest their entire surroundings for resources if need be, which is more akin to something like Minecraft. Breaking down walls is a majority of the core gameplay so the ratings end up reflecting that, from what I'm seeing.
Still doesn't make things any better, otherwise contradictions of video games use the same damn thing anyways.
 

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Little late but I agree with likely/possible 9-A

Fod the vaporization stuff, is common in fiction, even in games, for dead bodies to be super fragile compared to them alive, even down to human level.

I think I played some games where you can't gib people with bullets and blades, but once their bodies die, you can rip them apart for the hell of it.

In tf2, they die, their bodies become "ragdolls", and the effects happen.
No one is arguing for the vaporization stuff anymore, it was already agreed to not scale to their durability
 

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I think you mean not dying =/= scaling. Also, one of our infamously conservative comic profiles literally use that logic (Albeit it's an absolute peak)
Strange thing about this is that The Imp-ress (who deals with a lot of the Marvel content) plans on removing that portion of the page, so this doesn't mean much.

Still doesn't make things any better, otherwise contradictions of video games use the same damn thing anyways.
I don't think I'm fully grasping what your core issue is, is it possible double-standards? I think what's in place there and what was being pushed for the vaporization stuff is completely different.

Rtxthegamer said:
All characters can get 75% blast resistance at the least, so any character that can further reduce that damage should be able to survive it if I'm reading it right.

Its explosion is entirely off your health value, and the poster implies that even with the damage reduction it's still very possible to die to this explosion, and if you don't die you are still left in critical condition.
 
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Here's how I think it should look for the mercs:

Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Insert whatever they have currently, though maybe remove them one shotting Blu classes since the Blu team is clearly much weaker in the Meet the Team videos), likely Small Building level (Even without upgrades, can damage Giant Robots, who are capable of easily surviving Sentry Buster explosions. Can damage Pyro, who survived this)

Durability: At least Wall level (Insert what they currently have), possibly Small Building level (Comparable to Scout, who survived this while already greatly injured; and Pyro, who survived this)

Note how the 9-A is "Possibly" instead of "Likely" in durability. This is because, in my opinion, it's more reasonable for power than durability. The 9-B and 9-A rocket calcs should also probably be put onto the same blog for convenience sake.
 
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Its explosion is entirely off your health value, and the poster implies that even with the damage reduction it's still very possible to die to this explosion, and if you don't die you are still left in critical condition.
It's possible to die yes, but you can survive it. But like I said, this is a supporting point.
 

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I think BLU is just as comparable, they're just the main team getting beaten for the sake of them being beaten. BLU team even beat RED once
If you are treating BLU as comparable I'd be inclined to not accept, as per the rockets taking out their most durable member in one shot. Them being the butt of everything isn't really an excuse.

It's possible to die yes, but you can survive it. But like I said, this is a supporting point.
Barely surviving isn't scaling or a supporting feat, it's practically designed to kill you and abuses HP mechanics to do so.
 
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If you are treating BLU as comparable I'd be inclined to not accept, as per the rockets taking out their most durable member in one shot. Them being the butt of everything isn't really an excuse.
It is though. If RED was that much superior to BLU, then the war between RED and BLU wouldn't have stalemated for years. Heavy being one-shot by a rocket is PIS. Plus, he was off guard.
Barely surviving isn't scaling or a supporting feat, it's practically designed to kill you and abuses HP mechanics to do so.
It doesn't change the fact that you can still survive it, making it a supporting feat.
 

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It is though. If RED was that much superior to BLU, then the war between RED and BLU wouldn't have stalemated for years. Heavy being one-shot by a rocket is PIS
Not necessarily, they just have the resources and manpower to keep going for that long, just because they are weaker doesn't suddenly discount this.

It's only PIS in the narrative of "the teams have to be comparable", which they don't have to be at all.

It doesn't change the fact that you can still survive it.
Okay, but I think you missed the point with this one.
 
Seems accurate. And while I’m pretty sure we shouldn’t use the HP System as feats, I do want to mention that when it comes to the mercs health relative to other mercs, it is accurate. By that I mean we know for sure that the Heavy is more durable than the Medic. Not enough to increase the tier, but yeah.
 
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Not necessarily, they just have the resources and manpower to keep going for that long, just because they are weaker doesn't suddenly discount this.
It kind of does, as BLU team would have to expend LOTS of more resources to keep fighting. That doesn't seem like the case, and I'm quite sure that it was treated as a complete stalemate between the two teams. Either way, we see BLU team members kill RED team members in the meet the team trailers.

Either way, this isn't really relevant to this thread, so I won't bother giving too much more input on this.
 
It kind of does, as BLU team would have to expend LOTS of more resources to keep fighting. That doesn't seem like the case, and I'm quite sure that it was treated as a complete stalemate between the two teams. Either way, we see BLU team members kill RED team members in the meet the team trailers.
Yeah that seems about right. otherwise RED would have won long ago.
 

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It kind of does, as BLU team would have to expend LOTS of more resources to keep fighting. That doesn't seem like the case, and I'm quite sure that it was treated as a complete stalemate between the two teams. Either way, we see BLU team members kill RED team members in the meet the team trailers.
Again, not really, having to expend more resources sure is unfortunate but they do that more anyway because they are the ones dying all the time in the "Meet The X" trailers, what do you consider the many Soldier's in Meet the Medic worth in this case then? You say it doesn't seem like the case but it's very forward about how the BLU team is weaker.

We've seen a Scout go down to a Sentry, some mercs get critically injured in Meet the Medic, and probably one other instance I'm forgetting, but them being weaker doesn't suddenly mean REDs are invincible, it just means they aren't comparable. You see Demoman take out groups of BLUs, you see Soldier do it, you've seen Spy do it, and you've seen Scout (the weakest class) wrestle down a BLU Heavy.

Yeah that seems about right. otherwise RED would have won long ago.
I disagree, they clearly have the resources to keep going, the Mann brothers have lots of money to spend to get their way.
 
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Both sides have pretty much the same resources, that's point of the war, both brothers wasting their equal fortune on war, copying each others side.

If BLU was weaker at all, they would have lost, resources don't matter because the RED would have them as well as superior might
 
If they needed to worry about resources, they would not let the Heavy use his machine gun.
I just did some math, and the Heavy fires about $15000000 worth of bullets in a single 15 minute match.
 
Either way, this isn't really relevant to this thread, so I won't bother giving too much more input on this.
Agreed.
Yeah and?

I still personally think there's enough evidence towards 9-A I just also think that some calcs are 9-B.
It was several rockets at once, and Scout was already previously injured as you can see from the bandages across his abdomen. Surviving that is still a durability feat.
Apparently if he says its alright, then its been agreed by DMUA that the Pyro explosion is okay to use among the others.
 

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Both sides have pretty much the same resources, that's point of the war, both brothers wasting their equal fortune on war, copying each others side.

If BLU was weaker at all, they would have lost, resources don't matter because the RED would have them as well as superior might
Yeah, they are both wasting their equal fortune, it just means BLU is wasting more of it. Which they have been doing anyway because, again, they are the ones dying all the time, how does this suddenly change the moment their statistics come into question?
 

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Apparently if he says its alright, then its been agreed by DMUA that the Pyro explosion is okay to use among the others.
The Pyro explosion is not alright to use as general durability, it is a heat resistance feat seeing as the other Pyro was vaporized by a grenade in their own suit
 
When a can of gasoline is lured on a person and lit on fire, it doesn’t explode. It just lights on fire really fast. It looks like an explosion, but it’s just everything being on fire at once (almost).
 
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The Pyro explosion is not alright to use as general durability, it is a heat resistance feat seeing as the other Pyro was vaporized by a grenade in their own suit
I could be wrong, but I recall there being a calc where TFC grenades were calced at 9-A. I'll try and find it. Seeing as the entire explosion was contained entirely within the suit, as well as TFC Pyro being well past their prime, that isn't too surprising.

edit: found the calc, but the grenade used seems to be different.
 
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Yeah, they are both wasting their equal fortune, it just means BLU is wasting more of it. Which they have been doing anyway because, again, they are the ones dying all the time, how does this suddenly change the moment their statistics come into question?
The point is, no side is superior and there is no proof or mention that BLU was wasting more resources or was weaker.

If BLU was truly wasting more, they have already won, they don't have infinite resources, RED team would've just made them waste all of it and won, but they didn't, because the point is that each side is equal.

Plus they don't carry much resources to fights anyway, they just carry their weapons most of the time.
 

Jaften

Joke Battles
Thread Moderator
575
161
I mentioned this before but I think it got ignored.

Do any of the explosion feats take exposed surface area into account? I've looked at several of them and saw nothing indicating that they did. That would affect the durability rating given to the characters, would it not?
 
2,247
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I mentioned this before but I think it got ignored.

Do any of the explosion feats take exposed surface area into account? I've looked at several of them and saw nothing indicating that they did. That would affect the durability rating given to the characters, would it not?
Both Pyro and Scout seemed to be near the center of the explosion.
 

Abstractions

Femur Breaker
VS Battles
Sysop
1,854
1,051
The point is, no side is superior and there is no proof or mention that BLU was wasting more resources or was weaker.

If BLU was truly wasting more, they have already won, they don't have infinite resources, RED team would've just made them waste all of it and won, but they didn't, because the point is that each side is equal.

Plus they don't carry much resources to fights anyway, they just carry their weapons most of the time.
Yet you haven't proven BLUs are on equal footing at all, meanwhile I can list multiple things that point to them being inferior.

They have been wasting more, the Meet trailers are always depicting RED victories, what does this mean? Hire more mercenaries to fight back, buy their supplies and equipment, etc. This is indisputable when you factor in these things. Suggesting that RED would have already won is based purely on speculation of their level of resources.

Discussion of this can stop now, as it can be continued when the thread for it comes.
 
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