TF2 upgrade back to 9-A and new calculation

[TheGatememer]

Is it possible to get the mercs a 3x AP amp via critical hits?

Think that can just be noted in their P&A under their damage boost, if it’s not already

 

[ShionAH]

Think that can just be noted in their P&A under their damage boost, if it’s not already

It would still be listed in AP

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with the OP

 

[CBslayeR]

Think that can just be noted in their P&A under their damage boost, if it’s not already

it should still have a set AP value

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump

 

[Eficiente]

We know without a doubt, Scout survived those rockets while injured, only losing a tooth in the process. There is absolutely no level of vagueness whether or not Scout survived the explosion

Well, he was defeated by that & unable to move, apparently being knocked out until he got healed later on. But yes, we don't use DB logic about it.

That said, it is inconsistent as 1 rocket can blow up & one-shot Pyro, Demoman and Heavy.

Soldier can also survive a small tank exploding without taking any damage

I don't really agree with that calc. Yes the wiki says that the tank explodes, but that's the wiki. My issues are that the taunt is nonsensical & for fun, the tank pops up out of nowhere and is gone with as much logic, why take it as it blowing up from the inside out rather than deconstructing itself in an explosion-like way that doesn't affect much Soldier? The tank is also likely to be like a toy, hence its "shots are purely cosmetic and do not deal any damage to enemies", so, is its durability being taken in as a realistic mini-tank?

 

[Jason_Courne]

Well, he was defeated by that & unable to move, apparently being knocked out until he got healed later on. But yes, we don't use DB logic about it.
That said, it is inconsistent as 1 rocket can blow up & one-shot Pyro, Demoman and Heavy.

Yeah but he was visibly injured at the time, to the point he could barely crawl, yet he only lost a tooth in the blast. The classes would upscale a heavily injured Scout

Also the BLU team are sorta canonically weaker? In every video it shows the RED absolutely dominating BLU, the training mode has you play as BLU, BLU was replaced by RED for MVM, and the BLU team never got their "documentaries" recorded with the Director

I don't really agree with that calc. Yes the wiki says that the tank explodes, but that's the wiki. My issues are that the taunt is nonsensical & for fun, the tank pops up out of nowhere and is gone with as much logic, why take it as it blowing up from the inside out rather than deconstructing itself in an explosion-like way that doesn't affect much Soldier? The tank is also likely to be like a toy, hence its "shots are purely cosmetic and do not deal any damage to enemies", so, is its durability being taken in as a realistic mini-tank?

The tank physically explodes with a big blast, so it wouldn't make sense for it to simply fall apart (If your thinking fragmentation of steel than that makes sense to me)
Yeah it may not be an actual weapon like a real tank, but it is still a big steel box

 

[Eficiente]

Yeah but he was visibly injured at the time, to the point he could barely crawl, yet he only lost a tooth in the blast. The classes would upscale a heavily injured Scout

I don't disagree with that premise. My issue is how consistent it ends up to be.

Also the BLU team are sorta canonically weaker? In every video it shows the RED absolutely dominating BLU, the training mode has you play as BLU, BLU was replaced by RED for MVM, and the BLU team never got their "documentaries" recorded with the Director

Not really, that's just to have the characters have a spotlight with red being their primary color. We don't know how many times they fight and mostly see the reds come up on top, but that's not even consistent on of itself, making the argument that they're weaker come out of nowhere. At worst they might be less skilled.

The tank physically explodes with a big blast, so it wouldn't make sense for it to simply fall apart (If your thinking fragmentation of steel than that makes sense to me)
Yeah it may not be an actual weapon like a real tank, but it is still a big steel box

Well, I didn't mean in a binary way in which it either simply falls apart or blows up from 1 blast in the inside. It does blow up, but only the tank itself in a way that doesn't reach Solder much, if at all, while it is also deconstructing itself away, since the purpose is to remove what he's riding and the explosion comes for no reason other than that purpose.

 

[Eseseso]

Tbh, not crazy about the tank feat since it's more of a comedic gag than anything else.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Well, I didn't mean in a binary way in which it either simply falls apart or blows up from 1 blast in the inside. It does blow up, but only the tank itself in a way that doesn't reach Solder much, if at all, while it is also deconstructing itself away, since the purpose is to remove what he's riding and the explosion comes for no reason other than that purpose.

Ok so what about instead using the Black Box's vaporization statement as the primary 9-A calculation and having the Panzer Pants as a supplementary feat?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's worth noting tanks/vehicles exploding aren't usually as potent as they are visually impressive. Lots of them get blown up via chain reactions such as causing their gas tanks to ignite and it's the heat generated as a result that does most of the work. Furthermore, the actual "Explosion" isn't much of an explosion but mostly combustion. Gas ignition is mostly heat and not much actual overpressure behind it; not to mention the surface area of human sized characters surviving it also makes the durability required to survive stuff like that less impressive.

 

[TheGatememer]

Will be responding to all this in a bit

 

[Livinmeme]

Well, he was defeated by that & unable to move, apparently being knocked out until he got healed later on. But yes, we don't use DB logic about it.

That said, it is inconsistent as 1 rocket can blow up & one-shot Pyro, Demoman and Heavy.

Blue teammates are jobbers in the "meet the team videos". To the point a single spy was able to wash them all, and casually oneshot a Medic

 

[TheGatememer]

Well, he was defeated by that & unable to move, apparently being knocked out until he got healed later on. But yes, we don't use DB logic about it.

Technically, he wasn't knocked out, and was still conscious and able to crawl. But yeah, not much point in dwelling on this.

That said, it is inconsistent as 1 rocket can blow up & one-shot Pyro, Demoman and Heavy.

Either those three were injured, or like you said, it's just an inconsistency; most likely the latter. In the same short, we see Soldier easily tank his own rocket, and he isn't even the strongest mercenary.

Additionally, in Meet the Medic, Demoman, while crippled, was able to survive three direct rockets.

I don't really agree with that calc. Yes the wiki says that the tank explodes, but that's the wiki. My issues are that the taunt is nonsensical & for fun, the tank pops up out of nowhere and is gone with as much logic,

It is the official wiki, as noted on the game's website, so take that however you will. I don't really see what you're trying to say here, a feat isn't automatically disqualified if it's just a gag/for fun. Like, say a person in a fictional setting survives an explosion as a part of a gag, like a Non-Fatal Explosion trope; it would still be a feat.

As for the tank appearing, and disappearing out of nowhere, that's just a case of either Dimensional Storage, or Summoning. I'm leaning towards the former, since we've seen Soldier pulling stuff out of his ass like a whole Rocket Launcher. So, not really a point against it being a legitimate feat.

why take it as it blowing up from the inside out rather than deconstructing itself in an explosion-like way that doesn't affect much Soldier?

Why would we assume that over what is visually shown? We see bits of the tank firing out in different directions, and see the smoke as a result of the explosion; also don't see why the developers would go out of there way to make it seem so explosion-like, when it actually isn't.

The tank is also likely to be like a toy, hence its "shots are purely cosmetic and do not deal any damage to enemies", so, is its durability being taken in as a realistic mini-tank?

I wouldn't use this as a point against it being a real tank, given we have taunts that visibly harm the mercenaries like the Skullcracker, Burstchester, and Necksnap, but deal no damage in-game.

Also, in addition to the tank having stuff like an exhaust system venting out smoke, we see that the bits of the tank in the explosion have grown red-hot, something that wouldn't be possible if it were made from, plastic or something. Going by the sounds, the tank also seems to have a fair bit of weight behind it, and it makes actual engine sounds when running.

It's worth noting tanks/vehicles exploding aren't usually as potent as they are visually impressive. Lots of them get blown up via chain reactions such as causing their gas tanks to ignite and it's the heat generated as a result that does most of the work. Furthermore, the actual "Explosion" isn't much of an explosion but mostly combustion. Gas ignition is mostly heat and not much actual overpressure behind it; not to mention the surface area of human sized characters surviving it also makes the durability required to survive stuff like that less impressive.

None of this really applies to the feat in question here, since the feat isn't the size of the explosion, but the destruction of the tank FROM the explosion. Surface area doesn't apply here either, since Soldier is at the epicenter of the explosion, ergo he would scale to the full yield.

Tbh, not crazy about the tank feat since it's more of a comedic gag than anything else.

I don't really see what you're trying to say here, a feat isn't automatically disqualified if it's just a gag/for fun. Like, say a person in a fictional setting survives an explosion as a part of a gag, like a Non-Fatal Explosion trope; it would still be a feat.

 

[Livinmeme]

Also the wiki is LITERALY LINKED IN THE GAME, so saying the wiki has NOTHING to say, is basically delusional

 

[Eficiente]

Ok so what about instead using the Black Box's vaporization statement as the primary 9-A calculation and having the Panzer Pants as a supplementary feat?

I have no issue with that, can they survive that? Do we have links of them surviving it?

Either those three were injured, or like you said, it's just an inconsistency; most likely the latter. In the same short, we see Soldier easily tank his own rocket, and he isn't even the strongest mercenary.

I see him taking a very indirect part of it, so it wouldn't matter.

Additionally, in Meet the Medic, Demoman, while crippled, was able to survive three direct rockets.

He took an even more indirect part of the blast. The more far away one is from an explosion the less of it they take.

It is the official wiki, as noted on the game's website, so take that however you will.

Also the wiki is LITERALY LINKED IN THE GAME, so saying the wiki has NOTHING to say, is basically delusional

That's not "basically delusional", I too would respectfully treat like that a wiki if I had a game since it means people would be able to have an easier access to info and entertain themselvs with things about the game, but that wouldn't mean that everything there is word by word accurate. Unless the wiki was only edited by the creators of the game.

I don't really see what you're trying to say here, a feat isn't automatically disqualified if it's just a gag/for fun. Like, say a person in a fictional setting survives an explosion as a part of a gag, like a Non-Fatal Explosion trope; it would still be a feat.

As for the tank appearing, and disappearing out of nowhere, that's just a case of either Dimensional Storage, or Summoning. I'm leaning towards the former, since we've seen Soldier pulling stuff out of his ass like a whole Rocket Launcher. So, not really a point against it being a legitimate feat.

Why would we assume that over what is visually shown? We see bits of the tank firing out in different directions, and see the smoke as a result of the explosion; also don't see why the developers would go out of there way to make it seem so explosion-like, when it actually isn't.

Well, again, it isn't binary, it is an explosion, and I consider that to be what's visually shown. Imagine that any character summons something in their hand and vanishes it away by burning it, or having it blow up or whatever, it might be not entirely aesthetic, but partially aesthetic in a way that they don't get them harmed themselves, but if someone else were to put their hand there when it happens they might get burned, harmed by the explosion, etc.

Also, in addition to the tank having stuff like an exhaust system venting out smoke, we see that the bits of the tank in the explosion have grown red-hot, something that wouldn't be possible if it were made from, plastic or something. Going by the sounds, the tank also seems to have a fair bit of weight behind it, and it makes actual engine sounds when running.

Ok there.

 

[Jason_Courne]

I have no issue with that, can they survive that? Do we have links of them surviving it?

In game it does the same amount of damage as stock, which the full-health classes can survive

I also just noticed the caption for the promotion

The Tank Buster
Hmm? "Where are the tanks?", I hear you cry?
Gentlemen, I'll have you know that I blasted each and everyone of those overweight metal sonsofbitches back to their mothers
-The Soldier

Which heavily implies Soldier can destroy the bomb tanks on his own

 

[Livinmeme]

That's not "basically delusional", I too would respectfully treat like that a wiki if I had a game since it means people would be able to have an easier access to info and entertain themselvs with things about the game, but that wouldn't mean that everything there is word by word accurate. Unless the wiki was only edited by the creators of the game.

Wait what? Things ENDORSED by the devs, to the point of putting them on the game, aren't considered canon anymore?

 

[Da3ggman]

Say, whatever happened to the Phlog disintegrating robots in MVM? Surely that would get a massive result.

 

[MinecraftHater2011]

Surely that would get a massive result.

It's Building level.

 

[Eficiente]

In game it does the same amount of damage as stock, which the full-health classes can survive

That's solid then.

I also just noticed the caption for the promotion

Which heavily implies Soldier can destroy the bomb tanks on his own

Well, it doesn't really mean much as no timeframe or context is given.

Wait what? Things ENDORSED by the devs, to the point of putting them on the game, aren't considered canon anymore?

Can you stop overreacting? Think of the point I made, compare it to thinking "the devs endorse this, therefore it should be canon", break down why you disagree.

 

[TheGatememer]

I have no issue with that, can they survive that? Do we have links of them surviving it?

Here.

I see him taking a very indirect part of it, so it wouldn't matter.

It's a rocket jump, so he's propelling himself upwards with an explosion directly at his feet, so it would be a point-blank blast. Might look a little confusing, since the explosion particle doesn't appear until he's already propelled up by the blast for whatever reason. I can try to pull up a better angle in Source Filmmaker if you want.

Also, we have statements that even ordinary people in the Team Fortress universe are capable of surviving rocket jumping, since in lore, people had to rocket jump to get to the second floor of buildings, since stairs weren't perfected until 1921.

He took an even more indirect part of the blast. The more far away one is from an explosion the less of it they take.

I wouldn't call it indirect, really.

This is the last frame before the explosion particle appears, and at least one of the rockets is aimed to directly hit his back, and the other two are either gonna land on his side, or on his arm.

Say, whatever happened to the Phlog disintegrating robots in MVM? Surely that would get a massive result.

That applies to any of the disintegration weapons, and not just the Phlog really.

Also, it's been calced as 8-C+.

 

[TheGatememer]

I also just noticed the caption for the promotion

Which heavily implies Soldier can destroy the bomb tanks on his own

Meh, I doubt it it's referring to the MvM tanks, since the Black Box came out 2 years before MvM did.

 

[Livinmeme]

Can you stop overreacting? Think of the point I made, compare it to thinking "the devs endorse this, therefore it should be canon", break down why you disagree.

Because that would inherently mean that the devs lied? If the wiki isn't canon, then they are putting sources of information that spout lies

 

[Greatsage13th]

Nough said, the upgrade is very valid

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump
Everything was accepted, we just need to decide on the validity of the tank exploding (either that or just go with the Black Box's vaporization statement)

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump, 9-A upgrade was accepted but an exact value still needs to be debated

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bumpst, once again just need to decide on what 9-A value the mercenaries scale to

 

[TheGatememer]

Still need staff agreements, but as the one who linked it, I personally think the soldier tank scaling is fine

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump, 9-A was accepted by 3 staff, and Eficiente agreed to using the Black Box statement
Is it ok if I just applied the upgrade without the Panzer Pants taunt?

 

[Jason_Courne]

bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

Bump