Super Mario CRT: Galaxy? I Think Not!

[AKM sama]

In the OP I've shown how Stars consistently buff characters and amp their stats, I've shown how it grants the ability to alter maps magically, enable the use of certain abilities, and enable a ship to move via Star Power. These are consistent throughout every series from PM to Party to the Main games. Star Pieces are used to permanently power-up Mario and his partners in Paper Mario and these same Star Pieces are fragments of the Stars which naturally grant Star Power. These same fragments all were used to create the Crystal Stars which help Mario fight a threat he can't beat in base and also heal him much like other Stars have shown to do throughout the series.

Stars buff characters. But do you have proof of how much they buff characters? They can become different celestial objects, but we should not assume that they buff the characters with such power too. I can make an electrical explosive which can destroy the building when it blows up at once releasing a million joules of energy, but I can also use it like a battery and extract a small amount to power the electrical appliances, say 10 joules per hour.

Without explicit feats coming to the level of the full power of power stars and lumas that can only be done when they blow up in one big explosion, I am not inclined to believe that they are buffing up the characters with that same amount. It wouldn't even matter if they had infinite energy, but they can still buff someone by constantly providing a smaller quantifiable energy from their total pool of energy.

So again, at least 3-B since this is one of the farther galaxies,

A reset is not AP. It is hax. Two galaxies were not destroyed, were they?

The latter part of that comment is pure conjecture. The names mean nothing without explicit evidence. Having the word "transcendent" means nothing without explicit evidence. And I see assumptions, not explicit evidence.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

There was literally an explosion at the end though? Did we not see the same cutscene? And Rosalina talking about rebirth? Unless somehow your interpretation overwrites what's literally shown to us we have no reason to believe it's just hax. The Grand Star's energy was what powered the Reactor before collapse and it's forced removal caused the reactor to explode into a black hole from literally collapsing in on itself. The Lumas revert this through sacrificing themselves which takes energy which is already provably less than a Grand Star which consumes more than one galaxy. I don't see where this "hax" argument comes from. You talk about conjecture but do you not hear your own arguments here? Lumas nor Grand Stars have any shown hax beyond utilizing energy to transform or power things.

And we've been over this battery argument so many times now. The Grand Stars were literally being fully drained in the first game when Mario had no amps. Stop arguing this. And doesn't it also have to be proven and shown an object's power varies before we assume they grant far less power than what they've shown to provide? Just a reminder that the Reactor was probably depowered immensely when the Grand Star was removed, with the Grand Star likely taking most of it's energy back as it wasn't bronze and dulled out like others have shown. Without the core of it's power that kept it generated the artificial star collapsed.

And I want to point out these are sentient beings that were once Lumas, which we know because the Lumas have called Grand Stars part of their family along with Power Stars which we know some Lumas become. These aren't actual batter it's basically sentient beings that can grant others their power should they willingly choose to do so having this power sucked out of them to the point where they were at the brink of death. It's a power that helps keep them alive and a power that can grant immense strength to an object or being when harnessed. I don't see why other verses can have objects that grant power keep their ratings but Mario specifically gets attacked because there's no "oh well the characters could just be using an absurdly low fraction of that power because I personally choose to believe they aren't that powerful" when there's the fact Mario fought other enemies and machines powered by Grand Stars sapping their energy just like the Reactor, where they were dull and bronze to show they're on the brink of death.

I still genuinely have no idea why you choose to remain stubborn and hinge on this battery argument when people have collectively given so much context and different statements that go against it being a reliable argument to snuff the power of this verse. Your analogies rely on assumptions as well, assuming without good reason that only a small fraction of energy is used when there's contextual and actual visual and narrative evidence against that crux of your argument that I've repeated countless times and yet you refuse to hear it.
You've provided little evidence yourself beyond personal beliefs and flawed analogies.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

If all you have is "but gameplay" and "but batteries" then I'm sorry but I'm not replying anymore. We've had this same circular argument span how many threads now? I'm over it

 

[AKM sama]

There was literally an explosion at the end though? And Rosalina talking about rebirth?

So? It doesn't mean that explosion spanned and destroyed multiple galaxies, does it? Rosalina talking about rebirth was addressed previously so I am not inclined on going through something that has already been discussed and accepted.

The Grand Star's energy was what powered the Reactor before collapse and it's forced removal caused the reactor to explode into a black hole from literally collapsing in on itself. The Lumas revert this through sacrificing themselves which takes energy which is already provably less than a Grand Star which consumes more than one galaxy. I don't see where this "hax" argument comes from.

And did I say the explosion was hax? No. I said that the reset is hax. Because it is. A reset is not AP. If you are trying to imply the reset never happened, then I don't know what you're talking about but this has also been addressed in previous threads.

And doesn't it also have to be proven and shown an object's power varies before we assume they grant far less power than what they've shown to provide?

No. The burden of proof is on the positive claim. And I am not talking about the Grand Star alone. I am talking about all the stars that are collected in the game and buff the stats.

And I want to point out these are sentient beings that were once Lumas, which we know because the Lumas have called Grand Stars part of their family along with Power Stars which we know some Lumas become. These aren't actual batter it's basically sentient beings that can grant others their power should they willingly choose to do so having this power sucked out of them to the point where they were at the brink of death.

Nothing you said matters if you don't have proof. Once again, these stars become celestial bodies when they blow up. And being sentient doesn't matter when they are working as a source of power. Tony Stark's Arc Reactor is also something that holds too much energy and would destroy stuff when it blows up, but he uses it to power his suit. The stars are being used in the same way. Unless you can explicitly prove that these stars somehow blow up inside Mario and give all the power to him at one shot, or show some evidence of Mario displaying feats on such level, then it remains a bigger assumption than simply saying they are working as a constant source of continuous power, rather than their full output which is achieved by blowing up.

I still genuinely have no idea why you choose to remain stubborn and hinge on this battery argument when people have collectively given so much context and different statements that go against it being a reliable argument to snuff the power of this verse.

Because what you have provided is insufficient for what you claim.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah and your arguments are "sufficient" enough. I've provided nothing but evidence from the games in previous threads and much like you said yourself I don't feel like going through them again.

"Already has been accepted" acting like the wiki is infallible. Plenty of CRTs bring up things that were previously agreed on but end up debunking them and then the cycle goes on. Rosalina's words seem pretty topical for this. But I guess because it was something YOU agreed with it's the truth and final.

Power Stars and Grand Stars don't need to explode. Lumas need to do this to even reach the power of a single Grand Star's feat which, again, provide the power amp naturally. In Galaxy 2 Bowser receives the same buff from each Grand Star he absorbs, but he constantly grows stronger as well, maybe in part due to the power he's sapping from Rosalina's Comet Observatory and other Power Stars as well. Bowser would have literally no reason to go from the mindset of "drain it's power 'til it dies" to a sudden shift of "yeah I'm only gonna use some of their power for my schemes". It makes no logical sense. You keep conveniently twisting my words and ignoring my point to justify your flawed arguments.

I still don't see how the Reset is hax. It's done via energy, the same energy that's used to create galaxies and Power Stars. I guess transformations that cause explosions don't count for AP anymore? This already shows an inferiority to the Grand Star which is the main source of scaling and the crux of my argument.

The Lumas NEEDED to do this otherwise contextually it's implied everything would have been destroyed. The scope of this "hax" you like to claim would still prove the Grand Star scales to AP on that level unless we are to say Grand Stars aren't even 3-C anymore? Because that's literally what it sounds like you're arguing. Everything done is just hax and therefore not scalable so I guess Grand Stars and Lumas both get an "Unknown" rating but 3-B hax in your view?

Proving they all function at the same power level is easily inferred by the fact each Power Star adds to the canonical counter for Star Power equally. Not one is worth more than the others because they provide the same buffs. And as for the Grand Stars they are treated contextually as superior and grant access to whole new sectors of the universe immediately (where's Power Stars require high numbers just to travel between two galaxies that exist in the same cluster) and all provide a similar buff to The Beacon where their power progressively gets it to shine brighter and burn hotter and grow larger. The fact they provide the same size increase to Bowser each time, and no, his progressing power cannot be proven to solely be because he absorbs more power from them because even in base he always puts up more of a fight and uses more abilities and progresses in his boss fights across the series AND the fact he was absorbing power from other things the entire time like Rosalina's Observatory at full power which has 114 Power Stars and 7 Grand Stars burning hot converted into energy in The Beacon. He stole their power and that power is the converted energies of 7 Grand Stars and 114 Power Stars.

I don't know what else you want from me or anyone else. This is literally the same repeated arguments over again and now even twisting my words to support your narrative because you constantly seem to evade the actual points I have. Until one of us learns to concede this won't go anywhere with just the two of us. So I humbly ask anyone else if they can be so inclined to add their inputs. Preferably other Mario supporters because I've lost interest quickly and personally am getting annoyed and I don't want to have a bad outburst.

 

[Antvasima]

Foxthefox1000 seems to make some good points above, if you ignore his current exhausted and annoyed mood. It would be good if you give them serious consideration.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dino_Ranger_Black @The_real_cal_howard @Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou) @LuckyEmile @I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die @CrimsonStarFallen @DarkDragonMedeus @Vrokorta @Bobsican @EMagoIorSouI @GyroNutz @Robot972 @SamanPatou

What do you think about Fox's and AKM's points above?

 

[Antvasima]

@Crazylatin77 @Starter_Pack @Psychomaster35 @ElixirBlue

Your help with evaluating Fox's and AKM's above arguments would also be appreciated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't quite agree with Low 2-C, it was already talked about that it was a feat that seemed to require all of the Power Stars, Grand Stars, and Lumas to do. And the Universe being reset was tanked by Rosalina's forcefield, so that being Low 2-C durability looks good in my eyes. But for all we know, the Universal reset could have been done via a unity based power up. Keep in mind, even with universal power sources and especially if it's either from McGuffin artifacts and Empathy based power sources, it's far too common that the unity of two or more or something ends up becoming a massively absurd boost in power.

And I'm still kinda finding it vague for Grand Star's "At least 3-B" interpretation comes from. I sort of get the article explanation, but I did not see an in game red part or was sure if that in the background was like inside the galaxy. But a single Grand Star is easily above baseline Galaxy level given that it created what is allegedly the largest galaxy in the universe with enough military to conquer the universe. Also, there are statements in Galaxy 2 about Bowser using excessive amounts of a Grand Stars power to the point of pretty much depleting it and could potentially kill the Grand Star. Meaning Bowser is literally using galaxy levels or higher power against Mario. Also, I agree with him 100% that using in game pixel work is about as fallacies as saying Wario is 10 feet tall because pixel scaling or ***** runs at 10 m/s because pixel scaling and what not. So Galaxy level is the lowest interpretation of the Grand Star's power.

As for whether or not reset is hax, it's only hax if it's by itself. But the same black hole destroying the universe is what caused the same big bang that recreates the universe. So it's more like a 4-dimensional explosion that recreates the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus makes good sense to me. So should we change the statistics to 3-C then?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Wait.

Where's the proof that it creates a galaxy? If I recall Bowser said he was going to create one not that it was already created. The red galaxy they travel to is where Peach's Castle is located but I don't think there's anything showing that galaxy was created artificially by Bowser.

And how is 3-B vague? I don't quite get what makes people say that. The galaxy is in redshift first of all, and it's the only galaxy in game we see with this coloration as the others are blueish white like how closer galaxies look irl too. It seems like blatant redshift given canonically it's the farthest distance the Observatory can travel, requiring the most Power Stars which dictate how far you can go in the observable universe and directly correlate to distance. Earth is where Rosalina is hanging out at and you need to reach the source of where this feat occurs by traveling the max distance. Don't see how we can't consider this redshift and assume that "farthest center of the galaxy" (which can also be read as farthest galactic center) and "center of the universe" aren't the same thing taking place in the farthest galaxy you can reach especially when context from the game supports it via the Star Counter also being an indicator of distance and Bowser's Reactor requiring the most to reach, hell it barely made it onto the Map. And we know Earth is effected by this event too clearly.

And the fact is that Lumas are inferior to the power of just one Grand Star since they needed to use all their power to cause the Reset lest everything get destroyed. This is also supported by the guides but I know those are apparently controversial if they support the side in favor of Mario feats. A single Grand Star is >= pretty much every Luma. We have no proof the Power Stars added anything to the feat. It was just the Lumas and Grand Star that were involved. For the Lumas to get a tier based on all working together but the Grand Star not scaling to it despite the clear as day fact it caused the event they all needed to join up for to negate seems very odd to me. Either they both get the rating or neither do imo.

The current Galaxy rating relies on the Grand Star creating galaxies and upscaling from Lumas but apparently what Lumas do is hax and also we don't even see this galaxy creation. And if Grand Stars do upscale to the Luma:s then why doesn't it also get the scaling to their sacrificial feat? Galaxy level seems pretty shaky to me if we're gonna keep the justifications being said in this thread. Like I would get confused looking at the profiles personally imagining it in my head so we need a very clear justification for both profiles that remains consistent with Grand Star upscaling and whether or not it's treated as just hax.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure the Galaxy Reactor level is the galaxy Bowser created and expanding. And 1 Grand Star has the power to create it regardless.

I don't have anything to comment against 3-B but okay. And I do agree the 7 Grand Stars should be holding most of the weight overall.

Lumas are inferior to Grand Stars yes, that's a valid point that Grand Stars are well above anything Lumas can do.

It's not hax, going boom and a galaxy is formed is not even hax. Arguments have been made about it being a suicide attack, but it's definitely not hax; feats > statements not the other way around. The only thing people say about "Hax" is the word Transform; but he said Transform and not Transmute I forgot to mention. Still, Lumas use their energy to explode and can reform back into Lumas. They can also turn into Power Stars and Turn into Black Holes ect. So it's not really a suicide attack either, but they seem to be able to make use their entire pool of energy and recycle it. Grand Stars still upscale a great deal regardless though.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Also don't we already treat the power scale as Grand Stars being the most superior?

Iirc it goes Lumas < Power Stars < Grand Stars. The reason for why Lumas vary from planets and galaxies is due to how much energy they have stored. If a Luma eats a good amount and stores enough energy before converti they become galaxies. Power Stars are already considered superior to Lumas because it's treated as a rarity, and in context with their powers supports them requiring more energy than usual to become them. Grand Stars are considered stronger than Power Stars, so isn't this already a scaling chain that says Grand Stars are >> Lumas? What I'm saying doesn't hurt our already accepted power scale at all so I don't see the issue with the logic.

And we literally already have all the evidence needed to prove Bowser's Reactor was the farthest of all cosmological objects available to the Observatory's range, right? Isn't it's range universal at full power? To argue that they were only in one galaxy the entire time and never traveled outside it at all is contradicted heavily. Starship Mario is consider an inferior or of equal status as a starship to Rosalina's and it was capable of traversing multiple galaxy clusters and the entire universe using the same power source as Rosalina. Why are we arbitrarily assuming despite all logical sense and evidence Rosalina didn't travel far at all? And once we realize this that distance that spans multiple galaxy clusters was in between Earth and the Reactor, meaning it's range needed to extend as far as Earth for people from all over to be slapped onto Earth and for them to wake up there.

I'm having a hard time understanding why this is being claimed as shaky and iffy. How do you logically within reason deny the distance travelled and the fact it had to have reached Earth from this distance too. Mario exclaims "Welcome New Galaxy" from Earth as it spans out from the planet (which looks tiny as hell BTW but we know it's not actually). I know people have tried to use Mario's words against him, but he could be celebrating the revival of his own galaxy or can refer to every other one still because Mario frequently speaks with grammatical errors due to canonically being foreign to the English language. And it still doesn't change the distance from Earth to the Reactor spanned multiple galaxies.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Seems like the 3-C statistics were accepted after long discussion. Which profiles do they need to apply to?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

There's literally a speed feat that got accepted involving the statement that Mario would travel to galaxies on the edges of the universe. Why would the Reactor exist in the same Galaxy as Mario and why would it even be close given the fact it requires almost the same amount of Power Stars to travel to as the Center of the Universe in Galaxy 2? Starship Mario and the Observatory use the same power source and should definitely have the same capabilities with a similar amount of Power Stars. So wouldn't the sequel support the fact the first game's Reactor was at the Center of the Universe or at least close enough too given we have the canonical numerical requirement of Power Stars needed to travel this distance from both translations of Galaxy 2? It's a direct sequel and continuation of Galaxy 1. For reference, you need 60 Power Stars to travel to Bowser's Galaxy Reactor in Galaxy 1, while in Galaxy 2, with Bowser's Galaxy Generator, it requires 70. However 60 Power Stars is more than enough to enter World 6 where the Generator is positioned.

The main reason Grand Stars got shot down is because people argued only Mario's Galaxy was affected. For this to make sense the reactor would have to be within the same galaxy. Does that make any sense at all given all the context provided?

Hell we have accepted calcs listed that utilize the counter for distances so why wouldn't the Reactor factor into this too? It would all be contradictory. Grand Stars are superior to Lumas and Power Stars, but we're conveniently ignoring the fact the Lumas did indeed perform a reset and listing that on their profile and it's definitely not just Galaxy level via the evidence I've provided.

Lumas become galaxies. Power Stars scale to this and even upscale. Grand Star upscale above even Power Stars, having a solid 3-C rating higher than everyone else. Lumas use their trasnform powers which is listed as legit AP and what is generally seen as legit AP on their profiles to join together to combat the force of the black hole. It collapses and the rest is history. This definitely effected a large portion of space, enough to reach Earth from a distance of 60 Power Stars away, and assuming these are actually galaxies and assuming that calc still holds up, that's a distance of hundreds of millions of light-years. Now despite Grand Stars apparently being the God Tiers for the Base cast scaling above them and Lumas and Power Stars to the point they don't even have a lower rating, why can't we acknowledge the potential scaling to the Luma's collective power output? Literally I think I worded it as "possibly 3-B" in the OP. I think that's reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus and Fox:

So what do you think that we should do here exactly?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Hell we have accepted calcs listed that utilize the counter for distances so why wouldn't the Reactor factor into this too? It would all be contradictory. Grand Stars are superior to Lumas and Power Stars, but we're conveniently ignoring the fact the Lumas did indeed perform a reset and listing that on their profile and it's definitely not just Galaxy level via the evidence I've provided.

This is probably the thing I really wanna focus on right now. Because we've acknowledged this feat for a while now but their profile doesn't even have it. We acknowledge it's a feat beyond their normal capabilities, right? Via working together and all that. Grand Stars already upscale from them twice over and it's already listed on their profile that they do. Lumas transforming is considered AP on their profiles and they mass transform for this feat too.

That's where I'm coming from. It's already listed as AP for Lumas and the upscaling makes sense and doesn't contradict anything. Perhaps someone can make a thread arguing Lumas are hax or whatever later on and then we can make the downgrade but for now we already scale from their transformations.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Sorry for being so proactive but no one is talking and I have more on my mind.

If I recall, the Japanese translation of Galaxy where Bowser talks about his new universe was disregarded because it could refer to him just establishing his reign from there and we have no timeframe. It "could have taken a long time and he made things one-by-one"

My question is: Doesn't this argument being the accepted one therefore debunk any rating applied to the feat? He's currently accepted as galaxy level from Luma upscaling and saying he would create a new galaxy. How do we know this wouldn't also be over time? How do we know "create" doesn't just relate to establishing a galactic empire? Do we know the size of the galaxy he'll create? The answer to all of these is basically "just trust me THIS is the case".

The arguments that were already accepted contradict keeping Grand Stars and Power Stars at any rating. All we have is that he will "create" a galaxy. Do we know exactly how? No. Is there a feat of Grand Stars showing creation on that level? No. We at best see a Grand Star being drained almost to death creating artificial stars which wouldn't even be MCB. Also worth noting you can call something a "galaxy" technically as long as it has multiple "stars" and neighboring planets orbiting around each other. There's also varying sizes of galaxies, the smallest that qualifies being so small it barely qualifies as a galaxy, and by our standards would likely just be MSS to create/destroy it.

Basically be fair and acknowledge that the current ratings are subject to the same scrutiny when examined under a critical lens, with us relying on a statement that says nothing and upscaling from characters that are constantly questioned and also vary greatly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If I’m being honest, any of the Star children being blow a Luma shouldn’t be a thing. Mario very obviously kills things that trap them in both Galaxy 1 and 2, and a single Luma is galaxy. They require a varying amount of Star Bits but like, they’re just food for Lumas. You don’t say a human gets exponentially stronger because they had a good burger.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Currently they have the same tiering as Lumas and probably do scale from them somewhat. Both are currently 4-A but have a varies that goes up to 3-C.

Though 4-A might be getting removed which would lead to them being Varies, up to 3-C for Lumas and the main cast. But like I've said above, 3-C staying despite the same arguments against Low 2-C also being applicable to it should also have it removed due to fairness or have a "Possibly" listed next to a more definite tier. Perhaps the luminosity results of a Class 6 or whatever Dwarf Star that the Grand Star made the Beacon into is good enough for a calc? The only direct feat is that and then the feats others powered by them have performed. MCB to Town is probably a good estimate of where they'd land.

A note that Lumas can possibly become full-fledged galaxies instantly via a specific power only they have since that's apparently what's being argued should diffuse any confusion of Mario or the Stars scaling to them, and the use of "possibly" implies the scope and size of these galaxies are questionable. It pleases everyone and avoids confusion, doesn't it?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That doesn’t please me. Satisfying certain people simply because we can’t come to an agreement doesn’t sit right. It just feels like a way to make everyone happy instead of addressing the problem.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Trust me, I know. But we've tried addressing the problem so much. It's been how many threads now? I was also being a bit sarcastic when I included those last bits.

But what do you think, then? What should be done?

I'm firmly adamant that if we keep the current ratings there's too much contradicting it so either it gets removed like the Low 2-C for pretty much the same reasons that got removed or we acknowledge the inconsistencies with my proposals to upgrade the tiers which don't have such inconsistencies. It's arduous to repeat myself so I've got little left to say now.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write an easy to understand explanation of the discussion and arguments here so far please, so I can ask some staff members to help evaluate it?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Basically. I argue Stars all share a universal energy system of Star Power. They have been drained of their energies to almost death by Bowser so the "battery" argument and using only a fraction of their power is unsubstantiated. Going off of this, because Lumas when joined together can cause a Reset, it should:

1.) Be listed on their profiles first of all.

2.) Scale to Grand Stars for the scaling chain already treating them as massively above Lumas in power. It wouldn't contradict our ratings at all. And it makes sense. Unlike most other instances of objects powered by something, the literal star that was made from the Grand Star powering the Reactor is all energy, and once the core of it's power got taken, the energy it did have collapsed to form that black hole because it had nothing to sustain it anymore. The Grand Star was essentially keeping that artificial star from collapsing into a black hole. This black hole was so much of a threat that the Lumas had to resort to a Reset to undo the damage.

3.) The upgrade in proposal is to grant a "Possibly 3-B" rating due to the contextual evidence that the blast effected most of the universe and reached past many galaxies to effect the Earth as well. The English supports this because the fight takes place at the Center of the Universe but even with the Japanese version the same context of the number of Stars relating to distance and the comparisons between Starship Mario and the Observatory using the same source still exist, as well as traveling to galaxies on the edges of the universe. This interpretation makes a lot of sense, as there's no reason for Starship Mario to travel a larger distance with the same number of Power Stars the Observatory had when they represent the same distances able to be traveled.

This would apply to Power Stars, Grand Stars, likely Lumas, regardless of whether you believe they're Power Stars or not the Stars in Mario Party too, and the Crystal Stars. Via our current scaling Base Paper Mario would already be 4-A and the Crystal Stars amp and empower him further than Base to the point an opponent completely invulnerable to his attacks is now able to be harmed, so again, this changes nothing with the current scaling anyways and isn't contradicted. Star Power is consistent between the games on what it's able to do and it doesn't harm the scaling at all.

However, should these be denied, then I also brought up the fact that the same reasons used to downgrade Grand Stars before can be used to downgrade them now too. Bowser didn't instantly create a new galaxy. Could've been over time. "Galaxy" is much more vague and can refer to things that aren't even as big as well. This would mean the only things that grant scaling are the Lumas and the black hole event that Grand Star kept sustained which both directly scale to each other anyways. Either way the upgrade doesn't contradict anything.

The other side's arguments have been addressed for the most part. Size wouldn't matter to this topic anyways like I've said unless we're attempting to downgrade even 3-C, which if that's what the other side wants, I want them to at least be transparent about it and provide good arguments for it beyond "size in gameplay" which we've been over far too much.

I also have to add, why doesn't Mario scale to the Grand Stars? I don't think that makes much sense. The cast upscale from Power Stars but those upscale from Lumas which can go up to Galaxy and that's where they'll likely be rated if the thread goes through so why not already have them at 3-C? Cause if they don't scale to 3-C we have to find a new tier for Base.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

@GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69

What do you think about the above post?

 

[Antvasima]

Basically. I argue Stars all share a universal energy system of Star Power. They have been drained of their energies to almost death by Bowser so the "battery" argument and using only a fraction of their power is unsubstantiated. Going off of this, because Lumas when joined together can cause a Reset, it should:

1.) Be listed on their profiles first of all.

2.) Scale to Grand Stars for the scaling chain already treating them as massively above Lumas in power. It wouldn't contradict our ratings at all. And it makes sense. Unlike most other instances of objects powered by something, the literal star that was made from the Grand Star powering the Reactor is all energy, and once the core of it's power got taken, the energy it did have collapsed to form that black hole because it had nothing to sustain it anymore. The Grand Star was essentially keeping that artificial star from collapsing into a black hole. This black hole was so much of a threat that the Lumas had to resort to a Reset to undo the damage.

3.) The upgrade in proposal is to grant a "Possibly 3-B" rating due to the contextual evidence that the blast effected most of the universe and reached past many galaxies to effect the Earth as well. The English supports this because the fight takes place at the Center of the Universe but even with the Japanese version the same context of the number of Stars relating to distance and the comparisons between Starship Mario and the Observatory using the same source still exist, as well as traveling to galaxies on the edges of the universe. This interpretation makes a lot of sense, as there's no reason for Starship Mario to travel a larger distance with the same number of Power Stars the Observatory had when they represent the same distances able to be traveled.

This would apply to Power Stars, Grand Stars, likely Lumas, regardless of whether you believe they're Power Stars or not the Stars in Mario Party too, and the Crystal Stars. Via our current scaling Base Paper Mario would already be 4-A and the Crystal Stars amp and empower him further than Base to the point an opponent completely invulnerable to his attacks is now able to be harmed, so again, this changes nothing with the current scaling anyways and isn't contradicted. Star Power is consistent between the games on what it's able to do and it doesn't harm the scaling at all.

However, should these be denied, then I also brought up the fact that the same reasons used to downgrade Grand Stars before can be used to downgrade them now too. Bowser didn't instantly create a new galaxy. Could've been over time. "Galaxy" is much more vague and can refer to things that aren't even as big as well. This would mean the only things that grant scaling are the Lumas and the black hole event that Grand Star kept sustained which both directly scale to each other anyways. Either way the upgrade doesn't contradict anything.

The other side's arguments have been addressed for the most part. Size wouldn't matter to this topic anyways like I've said unless we're attempting to downgrade even 3-C, which if that's what the other side wants, I want them to at least be transparent about it and provide good arguments for it beyond "size in gameplay" which we've been over far too much.

I also have to add, why doesn't Mario scale to the Grand Stars? I don't think that makes much sense. The cast upscale from Power Stars but those upscale from Lumas which can go up to Galaxy and that's where they'll likely be rated if the thread goes through so why not already have them at 3-C? Cause if they don't scale to 3-C we have to find a new tier for Base.

@AKM sama @Dino_Ranger_Black @DarkDragonMedeus @Crazylatin77 @Starter_Pack @Psychomaster35 @ElixirBlue

Your help with evaluating this would also be very appreciated.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Gosh...fine...

The proposals being made by Fox seems fine enough from a glance. What are the counter-arguments being made here?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The sizes of these celestial bodies in gameplay makes them much smaller than actual celestial bodies if one of the bigger arguments. But Mario is always inconsistent with sizes. We know the planet is an actual planet but the cutscenes in Galaxy show peach's castle clearly visible from the planet which would imply the planet is small but we know it's not. This argument also isn't really that relevant to the thread anyways as it focuses on the Reset and black hole made by the Grand Star by extension which effect a certain range of space that we can determine due to Star Power. 60 Power Stars in Galaxy 2 was able to reach the final world where the center of the universe lay way past a world that's literally a galaxy cluster so I'd say it's consistent enough.

Whether or not more than the Galaxy was effected which I've already given evidence why that should be the case.

Whether or not they used most of the energy of the Stars which Galaxy has shown us a Bowser who drains things of their power to almost death, meaning yes his mindset is to use all of their power and it wouldn't make sense to assume he sidd had a change of heart. I know Galaxy 2 is after a reset but personalities still remain the same he was literally draining the Comet Observatory and Rosalina said he took their Star Power when you see her. When this happened in the first game it meant her Observatory was without any power.

Beyond these I don't know if there exist other arguments

 

[Starter_Pack]

Then, I guess it's fine.

I don't really care that much about the high tier Mario stuff anymore, but this sounds logical enough.

 

[AKM sama]

I argue Stars all share a universal energy system of Star Power.

I don't quite follow what is meant by this. "Universal energy system" is not a term that we use in any official capacity so I am not sure whether it means the same thing I have in mind. More elaboration on what exactly it entails would be appreciated.

1.) Be listed on their profiles first of all.

The reset happened when hundreds of Lumas combined their powers together with the power of the exploding reactor. That's not something they can do alone, so how exactly do you suggest we list it?

2.) Scale to Grand Stars for the scaling chain already treating them as massively above Lumas in power. It wouldn't contradict our ratings at all. And it makes sense. Unlike most other instances of objects powered by something, the literal star that was made from the Grand Star powering the Reactor is all energy, and once the core of it's power got taken, the energy it did have collapsed to form that black hole because it had nothing to sustain it anymore. The Grand Star was essentially keeping that artificial star from collapsing into a black hole. This black hole was so much of a threat that the Lumas had to resort to a Reset to undo the damage.

I believe hundreds of Lumas combining their power to scale to Grand Star is acceptable.

3.) The upgrade in proposal is to grant a "Possibly 3-B" rating due to the contextual evidence that the blast effected most of the universe and reached past many galaxies to effect the Earth as well. The English supports this because the fight takes place at the Center of the Universe but even with the Japanese version the same context of the number of Stars relating to distance and the comparisons between Starship Mario and the Observatory using the same source still exist, as well as traveling to galaxies on the edges of the universe. This interpretation makes a lot of sense, as there's no reason for Starship Mario to travel a larger distance with the same number of Power Stars the Observatory had when they represent the same distances able to be traveled.

Possibly 3-B to who? The blast was a result of combining the power of Grand Star (the reactor's energy) and hundreds of Lumas. Combo results like these do not scale to individuals.

However, should these be denied, then I also brought up the fact that the same reasons used to downgrade Grand Stars before can be used to downgrade them now too. Bowser didn't instantly create a new galaxy. Could've been over time.

That makes sense to me. If there is no proof of it happening in one shot, then it could very well be over time.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

So what should we do here exactly, in summary? It is hard for me to keep track.

 

[AKM sama]

We should wait for Fox's response. I'm still trying to understand a few things from his proposal.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I thought my post was pretty digestible.

Basically, get rid of 3-C because of the constant size arguments with Bowser's "galaxy" not having a known size and timeframe claims that were part of the reason for the original downgrade especially since the timeframe we have takes the entirety of the game. Bowser's entire plan is revealed to us or is constantly talked about, with him moving to "the next stage" after every battle so if the Galaxy level can truly be attributed to Grand Stars and Bowser it should be acknowledged as preparation at best. If he could just create full-fledged galaxies with the Grand Stars instantly it wouldn't have taken the whole game for him to finally say to Mario that he's about to create the galaxy when they have their final battle. He could've feasibly created a galaxy by making planets and stars one-by-one. The black hole at the center can also vary in size between galaxies. But it would probably be Tier 4 instead of 3 no matter what.

We just have barely anything to go by truthfully. The only reliable thing supporting Galaxy level are the Lumas, and even then the sizes of their galaxies is being called into question and their power is being called a hax so scaling to them might be questionable on that front. If both a Luma and a Grand Star can create galaxies it makes you wonder why Bowser would even want the Grand Stars that apparently take more time to utilize when a single Luma can do what he set out to do instantly. Either Grand Stars can create larger galaxies and effect more of a range than Lumas (implied by the black hole that took every Luma to counter which supports my 3-B arguments) or Lumas are superior to the Grand Stars, which would make no sense. There's also the third interpretation that Lumas simply don't create galaxies and the Grand Star would create an "actual" one. But I ask, how do we know Bowser saying he'll create a galaxy means a full-fledged one while Lumas becoming galaxies and the game constantly calling them galaxies are treated as if they're not legit? There's no logical reason to assume Bowser would create an actual galaxy when this argument uses all other instances of the word being said to claim galaxies aren't actual galaxies. This would downgrade everything from 3-C completely.

This leaves the only source of scaling for Grand Stars be the Power Stars (unless these also get downgraded with the other thread) and Lumas. Currently, their ability to transform is treated as AP and some via energy. They use this energy to combat the Grand Star's black hole. If the black hole wasn't a big threat the Lumas would not have needed to take such extreme measures meaning the Grand Star should have at least a "Possibly 3-B" rating from scaling to the Lumas, and it contradicts nothing with Grand Stars already scaling above Lumas greatly. It's the highest interpretation of their power and it still makes sense.

I'm not gonna provide the evidence of 3-B again as I've already gone over everything, and to deny a canonical distance counter would be silly. There's just no way it isn't 3-B. It shouldn't be so hard to grasp. Backgrounds of some levels in game even show a whole galaxy and all context and canonical placements of some galaxies (edges of the universe) imply you're adventuring throughout the universe and not just your local galaxy.

The Grand Star was getting drained as it supplied the energy needed to sustain the star. It gets removed, that energy no longer has anything to sustain it and it collapses and forms the black hole the Lumas needed to perform a 3-B and possibly Universal feat for.

I don't know what else I can say, really.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought my post was pretty digestible.

Basically, get rid of 3-C because of the constant size arguments with Bowser's "galaxy" not having a known size and timeframe claims that were part of the reason for the original downgrade especially since the timeframe we have takes the entirety of the game. Bowser's entire plan is revealed to us or is constantly talked about, with him moving to "the next stage" after every battle so if the Galaxy level can truly be attributed to Grand Stars and Bowser it should be acknowledged as preparation at best. If he could just create full-fledged galaxies with the Grand Stars instantly it wouldn't have taken the whole game for him to finally say to Mario that he's about to create the galaxy when they have their final battle. He could've feasibly created a galaxy by making planets and stars one-by-one. The black hole at the center can also vary in size between galaxies. But it would probably be Tier 4 instead of 3 no matter what.

We just have barely anything to go by truthfully. The only reliable thing supporting Galaxy level are the Lumas, and even then the sizes of their galaxies is being called into question and their power is being called a hax so scaling to them might be questionable on that front. If both a Luma and a Grand Star can create galaxies it makes you wonder why Bowser would even want the Grand Stars that apparently take more time to utilize when a single Luma can do what he set out to do instantly. Either Grand Stars can create larger galaxies and effect more of a range than Lumas (implied by the black hole that took every Luma to counter which supports my 3-B arguments) or Lumas are superior to the Grand Stars, which would make no sense. There's also the third interpretation that Lumas simply don't create galaxies and the Grand Star would create an "actual" one. But I ask, how do we know Bowser saying he'll create a galaxy means a full-fledged one while Lumas becoming galaxies and the game constantly calling them galaxies are treated as if they're not legit? There's no logical reason to assume Bowser would create an actual galaxy when this argument uses all other instances of the word being said to claim galaxies aren't actual galaxies. This would downgrade everything from 3-C completely.

This leaves the only source of scaling for Grand Stars be the Power Stars (unless these also get downgraded with the other thread) and Lumas. Currently, their ability to transform is treated as AP and some via energy. They use this energy to combat the Grand Star's black hole. If the black hole wasn't a big threat the Lumas would not have needed to take such extreme measures meaning the Grand Star should have at least a "Possibly 3-B" rating from scaling to the Lumas, and it contradicts nothing with Grand Stars already scaling above Lumas greatly. It's the highest interpretation of their power and it still makes sense.

I'm not gonna provide the evidence of 3-B again as I've already gone over everything, and to deny a canonical distance counter would be silly. There's just no way it isn't 3-B. It shouldn't be so hard to grasp. Backgrounds of some levels in game even show a whole galaxy and all context and canonical placements of some galaxies (edges of the universe) imply you're adventuring throughout the universe and not just your local galaxy.

The Grand Star was getting drained as it supplied the energy needed to sustain the star. It gets removed, that energy no longer has anything to sustain it and it collapses and forms the black hole the Lumas needed to perform a 3-B and possibly Universal feat for.

I don't know what else I can say, really.

That seems to make sense to me at least.

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz @Dino_Ranger_Black @CrimsonStarFallen @SamanPatou

What do you think?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I disagree with the removal of 3-C because I already explained time after time it's not hax. Explosion manipulation is not hax, and while most would consider it a self destruction feat; this is a case of it not being a suicide attack given the fact that galaxies have been known to turn back into pink Lumas. Also, it was already brought up numerous times that this image basically proves the entirety of Super Mario Galaxy takes place all in one Earth night as the observatory is literally just above the Mushroom Kingdom where there is a night festival going on. So the galaxy Bowser created could not have taken too long.

As for the second paragraph, I think the most common sensical thing is to say Grand Stars are far superior to Lumas. And Cal is correct, Mario and co would by lore have to be much stronger than typical Lumas otherwise Rosalina could have easily just waged war against Bowser and all of them effortlessly stomped them. It makes no sense for the single protagonist or the final boss to literally be below the individual power levels of the hundreds of damsels who are otherwise seen as helpless against Bowser and Bowser Jr. Regardless of whether regular Power Stars land, Grand Stars and thus Mario + Bowser should not be any lower.

Also again, the terminology complained about it "Universal Power Source" not "Universal Energy System". Which I'm currently working on, and DontTalkDT also called it Connected Power Source. But Star Power is something commonly stated throughout the Mario franchise and not exclusive to things like Power Stars or Grand Stars. It even had an original terminology back in Legend of the Seven Stars. And Mario Galaxy did make mention of all living things and objects being made of Star dust and being born of the Power of the Stars. The Seven Star Children in general were all born with immense levels of it too. So by birth, Mario and co are logically more gifted than Lumas. Though I also said that "It being an energy source everyone is born with" is not the relevant part to be called Universal Power Source as opposed to consistency that a wide variety of powers including superhuman physical characteristics draws from the same functionality and consistently just as potent in one direction or the other. And even then, it's common for Universal Power Source to still be limited in which casual attacks should avoid being downscale to things treated like an Ultimate Attack or Final Explosion situation unless otherwise consistently shown. But Lumas are consistently shown to use up their entire pool of energy to attack foes or environment much how they did attempting to stop the black hole. And Mario has in various RPGs used the same power source for fire magic to use his jump attacks and what not, so Mario's magic and physical characters are fairly interchangeable.

As for the reset, normally it is just hax. But when it happens immediately after an explosion that destroyed most of the universe or black hole that sucked up most of the universe, I'd argue to an extent it would be attack potency. Especially if inverse square law of a cosmic explosion was taking into account and treated like a miniature big bang. But the part I still find vague is that I'm not 100% if we can assume of one Grand Star is 1/7th of having 7 of them given that McGuffin power sources are known for getting much stronger in Unity. But if one Grand Star has feats where it would be in the 3-B range via inverse square law, I could see that.

The Edge of the Universe feats are also very strong points to the galaxies being real galaxies as well as strong inverse square law implications.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that makes better sense then.

So what should we do here exactly?

 

[AKM sama]

But when it happens immediately after an explosion that destroyed most of the universe or black hole that sucked up most of the universe, I'd argue to an extent it would be attack potency

But the explosion did nothing of the sort. It was merely like a supernova that turned into a black hole and was about to eat Mario.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Wasn't talking about the Supernova before the Black Hole, but the explosion that came after the black hole.

 

[AKM sama]

And the explosion was not shown to reach multiple galaxies. It's just that Mario & Co. magically found themselves safe and everything was reset even after they all practically died, which points to it being hax. But even then, it would be a shared feat so it doesn't matter. I thought you were talking about Grand Star's on its own.