Super Mario CRT: Galaxy? I Think Not!

[Seol404]

I don't have to prove they're supposed to represent the actual cosmological objects when we DO have depictions of actual galaxies and planets within the same game. You cannot make a game where you travel the entire universe EXACTLY to ******* scale on a Wii game. I'm not saying they couldn't show galaxies or planets because they've always been able to, but just that having Mario actually try and traverse an entire planet and fly the length of solar systems and galaxies is a bit too ambitious for the Wii. How about YOU go and develop an entire Wii game where you can travel am entire planet's circumference and them multiple tha a few dozens times over and aee if it can realistically be done?

Yes, but said galaxies and planets are strikingly different from the ones Mario travels to and again, many share the same planets in the background, and they are seen again close together at the end of the first game.

Bowser Jr.'s Airship Armada is not even labeled a galaxy though? The text for "welcome to the galaxy" displays but again, this does NOT mean the entire level is the WHOLE Galaxy. Entering a new country does not mean I can see all of it or travel all of it and YOU can't prove these aren't just smaller portions of a galaxy either. This is just silly.

That's not how burden of proof works.

We have actual galaxies and planets shown in game but uh, I guess what we call planets and galaxies in lore aren't supposed to mean the actual planets and galaxies that exist because of... gameplay reasons? Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?

Please stop with this. I'm not gonna argue this point any further. If the wiki actually let's this "argument" pass than I would lose the very little faith I've had in this place. Y'all can claim game mechanics when it supports YOUR argument with no other proof but we actually have proof of the real objects existing and drawing a simple conclusion from that, but it's argued to be dismissed because of gameplay. Wow. What a awesome reason. I guess all of Mario is actually just a smaller universe than real life's because the objects aren't always to scale and shift in size to for gameplay or graphical limitations constantly, like the Castle example. Or the Moon. Or for Level Select aesthetics. Guess Mario can actually make himself as large as castles and entire stretches of land without the Mega Mushroom because level selects in the 2D series show him as very large on the World Map OR these places are actually just very small!! Yeah, that's the one!! Surely sizes and portrayals of objects don't constantly vary in depiction in the Mario franchise and the actual consistent sizes can just be written off and we'll use all the examples that downgrade the verse instead!!

Again, you're making the argument that what we see in the game is just drastically different from what is supposedly there canonically, making everything unusable. As DragonLord said, your argument hinges on developer intent which you have yet to prove at all.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The very basic fact is that galaxies and planets were shown to full-scale, or at least they tried with the Earth in that castle stealing cutscene, which by the way I guess y'all would argue the planet itself isn't a planet because of this one instance it appears small as well which would be stupid. The background of the Observatory is implied to be the planet and it is definitely to scale there.

So we DO have a size-shifting in-game for an actual planet that was done for whatever creative purposes. Why can't we say the same for the galaxies and planets Lumas create when the ******* LORE is that they are essentially the building blocks of the universe? It makes NO sense again, logically, for them to be the foundation for many of the universe's cosmological structures and NOT be Planet or Galaxy. Why can't we take Rosalina literally? Why would she, a woman who's traveled the universe and knows a hell of a lot about it, classify collections of mini planetoids as galaxies and planets? She even said word-for-word how the deaths of actual stars work in our universe in the ending, and explains that this is a constant cycle. How is this not credible? No. I just will not give this argument any credibility because it would set a huge precedent for other games because "well the sizes aren't EXACTLY to scale and we're ignoring the fact the series consistently changes the size of things for aesthetic purposes"

I'm not gonna accept this logic.

 

[Seol404]

So you keep saying things without proving anything with observable proof

Empirical evidence suggests that these are not true galaxies, we don't ever once see them as full sized galaxies and they share backgrounds to imply they aren't and are seen close together, again implying they are not full sized galaxies. For Lumas to be the building blocks of the universe that would only require High 4-C at most, but there is no proof their creation feats scale to their ap, given they die when performing such feats.

You can keep stonewalling with claims based on no objective reality or you can prove your points.

 

[Arceus0x]

just wanted to mention that wario's low 5-B feat is boutta get nuked into tier 7-6

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Hm, yes, let's arbitrary use the in-game sizes for these to determine that Lumas who are supposed to be able to become planets, stars, and galaxies in lore of which there are actual-sized ones that exist are simply only just MCB-Town via their transformations.

I dunno what else to say.

We can't actually prove these levels are the whole galaxies, and your entire point HINGES on that.

Even IF you want to be the absolute most critical, the ending that shows the "new galaxy" that y'all showed to try and disprove the sizes shows some of the planets that existed in other galaxies in the game now around Earth and compared to the actual planet of Earth they're not THAT much smaller. They'd at least be the size of countries and maybe even the Moon. So I feel like them being actual planet has support from this too. But again, I guess this just obviously means Mario's Earth is just tiny despite all evidence otherwise. My bad.

 

[Seol404]

We can't actually prove these levels are the whole galaxies, and your entire point HINGES on that.

That is how burden of proof works, yes.

Even IF you want to be the absolute most critical, the ending that shows the "new galaxy" that y'all showed to try and disprove the sizes shows some of the planets that existed in other galaxies in the game now around Earth and compared to the actual planet of Earth they're not THAT much smaller. They'd at least be the size of countries and maybe even the Moon. So I feel like them being actual planet has support from this too. But again, I guess this just obviously means Mario's Earth is just tiny despite all evidence otherwise. My bad.

Lumas can turn into planets, but we don't see them display that power for anything besides transformation, something characters amped by them can not perform, so the amp would be unquantifiable by all means, unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise.

My current stance is that Lumas should be High 4-C with transformation, given that the galaxies they transform into can contain black holes.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm just not seeing it.

But assuming if for some reason this did go through, what WOULD we suggest for the tiers then? Do you guys even know what you're arguing for?

 

[Seol404]

I would suggest High 4-C for now, given the black hole feats are all still accepted.

 

[Arceus0x]

Wario's feat has now gone from low 5-B to 7-C

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Lumas never die when performing their creation feats; they literally turn back into Lumas even after going boom and forming galaxies all the time. The same pink Lumas that turn into galaxies are back on the observatory when you return after doing a mission.

They also recognize that Mario is the one who fed them starbits, which makes them the exact same Luma.

 

[AKM sama]

Lumas never die when performing their creation feats; they literally turn back into Lumas even after going boom and forming galaxies all the time. The same pink Lumas that turn into galaxies are back on the observatory when you return after doing a mission.

I had a question regarding that I have been wanting to ask. If those Lumas become unable to do anything once they become galaxies until they transform back, wouldn't that suggest that the transformation power is their absolute max? Also, do we have some kind of proof that they use all their transformation powers when they amp up the cast?

 

[Seol404]

Are they the same Lumas? They are no longer the Hungry Lumas that become the galaxies, and the galaxies are still visible in the sky, plus it would narratively contradict what we are told in game if Lumas can simply turn back into Lumas from galaxies whenever they please.

 

[Seol404]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody explain the discussion and conclusions here so far in an easy to understand manner please?

 

[Seol404]

TL;DR There is no proof that the galaxies the Lumas become are galaxy sized, nor is there proof that they can output that power for any other abilities. The amp given by the power of the star is unquantifiable and not great enough to warrant a separate key.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I would appreciate input from other staff members here regarding that.

 

[AKM sama]

There is nothing in regards to the OP that needs to be done. Although, the subject of various "galaxies" not being galaxy-sized was brought up and I believe other knowledgeable staff members like @Dino_Ranger_Black should be called for input.

 

[Armorchompy]

I find myself in agreement with Seol and AKM

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

Dino has not visited this forum in 10 days.

 

[Imaginym]

Bumping for interest. What matters still remain here?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure.

Can somebody else provide a summary of what has been agreed here please?

I think that we will have to manage without Dino here, as he has not visited this forum for 2 weeks.

 

[Seol404]

We all seem to be in agreement that the Power Stars provide an amp, however it seems to be agreed at least for the most part that the amp is too small/unquantifiable to warrant its own key (Given un-amped characters can contend with amped ones)
The majority seems to be in agreement that the Galaxy sized SMG galaxies should be removed, unless further evidence can be provided, and the main cast downgraded to either High 4-C or 4-A, but the 4-A feat was brought into contention earlier, with most agreeing to have it removed for being too vague and likely over time.

If there is anything anyone else wished to add feel free to do so.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@GyroNutz is also very knowledgeable on the series from what I recall. Also, he was one of the people who brought up valid reasons for why Power Stars would be using all of its power.

 

[Antvasima]

We all seem to be in agreement that the Power Stars provide an amp, however it seems to be agreed at least for the most part that the amp is too small/unquantifiable to warrant its own key (Given un-amped characters can contend with amped ones)
The majority seems to be in agreement that the Galaxy sized SMG galaxies should be removed, unless further evidence can be provided, and the main cast downgraded to either High 4-C or 4-A, but the 4-A feat was brought into contention earlier, with most agreeing to have it removed for being too vague and likely over time.

If there is anything anyone else wished to add feel free to do so.

@DarkDragonMedeus @AKM sama @GyroNutz @Dino_Ranger_Black

What do you think about this?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I know I wasn't pinged, but I have been somewhat spectating this since it deals with one of the very few bits of the series I've actually played (Galaxy).

I absolutely agree the galaxies aren't comparable in size to real world galaxies, with that said. Neutral in regards to the power star stuff, leaning towards agreement.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, last time Dino was involved in a thread that discussed the size of the galaxies, he strongly disagreed with the idea that "Galaxies aren't real galaxies" based on an ending of Rosalina calling the galaxies "Massive". And that they all basically exist parallel to the Milky Way Galaxy. "Being named after a thing in the galaxy such as Good Egg Galaxy" isn't really a good argument. The name fallacy is just something to describe the course, and it's not meant to be taken literally as that just being the size cap. That's about as accurate as assuming the Milky Way Galaxy is literally made of milk just because of the term "Milky Way" or the fact that it was historically named after a Greek lore about the Goddess Hera "Spreading her milk across the skies". Also, all galaxies do not take place during the day time have starry skies visible in the background that are part of the galaxies.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus seems to make sense to me.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Name fallacy is the only thing in favor of Galaxy level Mario.

We have never seen Power Stars grant AP buffs to the level of that is being proposed ever. While using statements is fine, we literally have evidence that show that things in Mario does not work like in real life such as the black holes that spew water. Its really dumb to ignore major contradictions that goes against statements supposed to buff characters into tiers they never perform normally on top of using realistic values for something clearly not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to be a good point.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I believe the franchise does have appropriate sized galaxies and lumas does indeed turn into them. Apart from the statements and lore throughout the games, Flip Out Galaxy is probably the best example of this since it's the one a hungry luma transforms into. A proper galaxy can be seen within the level, particularly the spiral kind. Plus, we do have actual galaxies within both games and the franchise in general such as Mario Party 3, where the Millennial Star is created in the center of the universe. The same epicenter of both Galaxy games. Personally, I don't think we should use the name as an argument as it seems to only describe the level Mario traverses rather than naming the entire galaxy after it nor the limited space the player is allowed to travel as Mushroom Kingdom would be several times smaller just because of Super Mario Odyssey.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I am not sure.

Can somebody else provide a summary of what has been agreed here please?

I think that we will have to manage without Dino here, as he has not visited this forum for 2 weeks.

Sorry about that. With summer now over, I'm rather occupied again. In addition, I have a traditional orientation for my home land I have to prepare for. I'm not going to be as active at the moment.

 

[Seol404]

I believe the franchise does have appropriate sized galaxies and lumas does indeed turn into them. Apart from the statements and lore throughout the games, Flip Out Galaxy is probably the best example of this since it's the one a hungry luma transforms into. A proper galaxy can be seen within the level, particularly the spiral kind. Plus, we do have actual galaxies within both games and the franchise in general such as Mario Party 3, where the Millennial Star is created in the center of the universe. The same epicenter of both Galaxy games. Personally, I don't think we should use the name as an argument as it seems to only describe the level Mario traverses rather than naming the entire galaxy after it nor the limited space the player is allowed to travel as Mushroom Kingdom would be several times smaller just because of Super Mario Odyssey.

The same galaxy which also appears in Battle Belt Galaxy, implying that said spiral galaxy existed before the Luma transformed, and again, there is supporting evidence for the "galaxies" not being full sized while the evidence for it is that the back grounds exist, which ironically also supports the opposite. and that real galaxies also exist in the Mario universe, which proves nothing.

I'm not really a fan of upscaling a verse based on a skyboxes that appear in multiple different areas of the game, especially when the difference between the feats shown and what the stats would be factoring in the skybox are so drastically large that it would be greater than the difference between an ant and a hydrogen bomb.

 

[Imaginym]

Can Battle Belt Galaxy be reached before Flip Out Galaxy?

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

The same galaxy which also appears in Battle Belt Galaxy, implying that said spiral galaxy existed before the Luma transformed, and again, there is supporting evidence for the "galaxies" not being full sized while the evidence for it is that the back grounds exist, which ironically also supports the opposite. and that real galaxies also exist in the Mario universe, which proves nothing.

I'm not really a fan of upscaling a verse based on a skyboxes that appear in multiple different areas of the game, especially when the difference between the feats shown and what the stats would be factoring in the skybox are so drastically large that it would be greater than the difference between an ant and a hydrogen bomb.

Battle Belt Galaxy appears in World 6 and Flip Out Galaxy appeared in World S. The former already exists while the latter only appears after the hungry luma transforms and with the fact we use portals to travel across between them, it’s clear that it doesn’t takes place within the same spot and debunks that it’s a pre-existing location. Especially when they are the only locations within both sections.

This type of skybox only appeared twice in the game and is clearly depicted as a galaxy in both cases as it isn’t small and is taking after an actual type of galaxy. As far as I’m concern, the only arguments made against these locations sizes’ are the names, which I already went over why that isn’t a good argument and the scope of the levels, which also isn’t a good argument since we we’re only given a limited amount of space to travel around and the celestial bodies within the area, specifically the several cluster of stars, which only further support the case.

 

[Arceus0x]

Battle Belt Galaxy appears in World 6 and Flip Out Galaxy appeared in World S. The former already exists while the latter only appears after the hungry luma transforms and with the fact we use portals to travel across between them, it’s clear that it doesn’t takes place within the same spot and debunks that it’s a pre-existing location. Especially when they are the only locations within both sections.

This type of skybox only appeared twice in the game and is clearly depicted as a galaxy in both cases as it isn’t small and is taking after an actual type of galaxy. As far as I’m concern, the only arguments made against these locations sizes’ are the names, which I already went over why that isn’t a good argument and the scope of the levels, which also isn’t a good argument since we we’re only given a limited amount of space to travel around and the celestial bodies within the area, specifically the several cluster of stars, which only further support the case.

So at least high 4-C, likely 3-C?

 

[Antvasima]

Dino makes sense to me above. Thank you for helping out.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

so most of us agree with 4-C Mario correct?

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't Dino say that the 3-C Power Stars have legitimate tiers?

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

right, he did. My apologies

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I believe the franchise does have appropriate sized galaxies and lumas does indeed turn into them. Apart from the statements and lore throughout the games, Flip Out Galaxy is probably the best example of this since it's the one a hungry luma transforms into. A proper galaxy can be seen within the level, particularly the spiral kind. Plus, we do have actual galaxies within both games and the franchise in general such as Mario Party 3, where the Millennial Star is created in the center of the universe. The same epicenter of both Galaxy games. Personally, I don't think we should use the name as an argument as it seems to only describe the level Mario traverses rather than naming the entire galaxy after it nor the limited space the player is allowed to travel as Mushroom Kingdom would be several times smaller just because of Super Mario Odyssey.

I dislike this, for the record. I apologize if my grievance is rectified by something else in this thread, but seeing a galaxy from the level isn't the same as there being a galaxy in the level. Given a clear enough sky you can see galaxies from Earth. I don't take this as anywhere near objective proof.