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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode V Attack of the Fanons

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Ah, so, circular logic.

Proof of that Palpatine was talking about his potential? He does not seem to be talking about his potential, just his completed skills as a Jedi.
  • EMPEROR: We have a new enemy - Luke Skywalker.
  • VADER: Yes, my master.
  • EMPEROR: He could destroy us.
  • VADER: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
  • EMPEROR: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
  • VADER: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
  • EMPEROR: Yes. Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?

  • VADER: Your skills are complete. Indeed, you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen.
 
I looked through the novel, and I can't find Vader having a vision of Luke killing Palpatine. I could find Palpatine tapping into Vader's delusion of Luke murdering Palpatine and the two ruling an absolutely enormous Empire. Vader is even fully healed.
  • The vision began to move—no, Lord Vader began to move. He walked with methodical purpose, yet something seemed different. No respirator. Through Vader’s eyes, the vision continued, and as he was set to cross the threshold, his gaze turned, breaking focus from the awaiting boy for a second to catch a flash in the window. A reflection. And with that image came a realization: This was not a vision. This was a delusion, a hope or a wish or a desperate dream. It was everything Vader wanted—or maybe it was everything taken from him. Palpatine had always ensured that those were one and the same. There Vader stood, not a hulking tank of black armor, but a man, whole. The familiar face of Anakin Skywalker peered back from the reflection, a face that hadn’t existed in more than twenty years. He looked as he’d last lived, the vertical scar over his right eye partially hidden behind rugged dark locks of hair, strong chin framed by an intensely focused stare. He remained clothed in dark-brown Jedi robes crossed over broad shoulders, and the only difference between the man in the reflection and the general who’d graced the HoloNet news so many times as the Hero with No Fear was the red-bladed Sith lightsaber on his belt.
 
And I'm saying that's the only thing I could find in that novel. If it exists, you find it and show it to me.
 
Yep, that's the story I got that quote from. It wasn't a vision of a potential future, it was Vader's dream of an ideal world.
 
Yes. They literally say it's a delusion, and Vader doesn't even have his breathing mask or armour. I even provided the quote from the Disturbance story.
 
Sidious saw Vader's dreams of an ideal world where Luke chokes him. Again, it wasn't a vision, it was Vader's wish.
  • And with that image came a realization: This was not a vision. This was a delusion, a hope or a wish or a desperate dream. It was everything Vader wanted—or maybe it was everything taken from him.
This is why he doesn't have a respirator, and the two of them lead the Empire together.
 
Old Ben is not scaled above Mace on this wiki. Anyway, I'll invite you soon.

Edit: I've invited you.
 
Having looked into it, it's true to an extent. ANH-era Vader has a lot of evidence for surpassing RoTS Sidious (not post-RoTS Sidious, though, as both grew in power a lot).

Edit: Since a lot of people are getting confused, I'm talking about Star Wars Legends. New canon Vader was always greatly eclipsed by Palpatine.
 
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Vader being conflicted doesnt mean much When LUKE for 99 percent of the time was holding back and not hurting his daddy.
 
ByAsura said:
Having looked into it, it's true to an extent. ANH-era Vader has a lot of evidence for surpassing RoTS Sidious (not post-RoTS Sidious, though, as both grew in power a lot).
Click to expand...
Even further proof that Super saiyan tros palpatine is stronger than Rots palpatine.
 
Fastestthingalive50 said:
Who? Also, Vader beats Old Ben, who scales above Rebels Ahsoka (Maul was injured when they fought, but Ben is still above), Rebels Ahsoka scales above Mace. Anakin is said to be the most powerful Jedi Yoda has ever known, and Vader is said to be > Anakin while not in his prime yet, Ahsoka did good against an all out Prime Vader.
Click to expand...
Anakin was stated time and again to possess the greatest potential of any Jedi ever in history. He just never achieved his true potential.

Both feats and portrayal place Sidious immensely above Vader as is in both continuities.

Fastestthingalive50 said:
Sidious had a vision of Luke force choking him.
Click to expand...
It was Vader's dream/wish only, not some sort of actual Force vision.

ByAsura said:
Having looked into it, it's true to an extent. ANH-era Vader has a lot of evidence for surpassing RoTS Sidious
Click to expand...
Oh...?
 
The amount of contradictions in Star Wars scaling is honestly headache inducing, but I also don't think that Palpatine and Yoda are as monolithically above everyone as we used to portray them as.

Also, Yoda is called the strongest Jedi Master post-ROTJ Kenobi has ever seen, and him being superior to all other Clone Wars era Jedi is frequently repeated in media, while Anakin is mostly only referred to as one of the most powerful Jedi. This lines up with Palpatine's statement that Vader hadn't surpassed them after becoming a Sith, and him getting defeated by Kirak (an opponent stronger than ROTJ Obi-Wan, but weaker than Yoda).

These are my final thoughts on scaling based on everything I've seen from guides and Star Wars media, even with contradictions in mind.

Obi-Wan (Invisible Hand) ~ Count Dooku < Anakin (Invisible Hand) ~ Early Vader < Sith Anakin = Obi-Wan (Mustafar/9 months after Invisible Hand battle) < Kirak << Vader (14 BBY and beyond) < Endor Luke < Prequel Yoda < ROTJ Sidious < Endor Sidious.
 
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powerscaling in star wars is a pain because fights in star wars very rarely follow the A>B and B>C thus A>C thing.
 
He's still noted to be an enormous threat to Vader and Palpatine, but that's sort of an unrelated note.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
based on what?

Luke is extremely casual the entire fight, even at points purposefully lower his guard.

the only time we see a Non-calm and casual Luke is when he gets angry and he then proceeds to pummel vader in under 20 seconds.
Click to expand...
Luke and Vader are both holding back, and there is this statement: "Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers."-Jedi vs Sith.
 
Jedi vs. Sith is an old EU guide. I think we’re talking Disney canon.
 
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