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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

ByAsura said:
There is no point here because you haven't proven that it's a slow process. As I said earlier (I guess you missed that edit), you're the one making the claims, so the onus is on you to prove that it's a slow process, which you've failed to do.

Which actually substantiates it being quick. How could they contain her in a prison she was already powerful enough to escape from if the weakening process wasn't quick?
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Well then there are only really two options here, either:

A) The effect of the black holes is so monumentally draining that it can reduce a being of infinite power to Multi-Solar System level or less in a negligible amount of time, yet every other interaction with said black holes don’t give off nearly that effect, with most mortals not even being able to notice any effect at all within days, and only children who stay near them for years suffering mild effects.

Or:

B) Abeloth didn’t have infinite AP for her raw telekinesis to begin with, with the actual weakening effect of the black holes being more gradual.

Personally one seems far more plausible than the other. I think this is good enough to substantiate my position, but ultimately if Abeloth is going to be upgraded in raw AP the onus will be on substantiating the other option.

ByAsura said:
Plus, it's entirely possible that The Son and Daughter would've already destroyed her avatars before fighting Abeloth and dumping her back into The Maw, which would've heavily weakened her again.
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Except as far as I’m aware she never split herself into avatars when she was initially imprisoned.

ByAsura said:
The Ones literally are the power of The Force (both living and cosmic). Not only that, but they can't even be considered 'in the galaxy' even if they're within material space and not Mortis because they operate on a scale far beyond the galaxy.
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They embody aspects of the Force, but saying they are equivalent/interchangeable with the Force itself for the sake of dodging that quote seems like a stretch.

ByAsura said:
Anyway, Epyriel, I'm done with this argument (at least for today), and I'm sorry if I came off as rude.
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Nah you’re good, thanks for hearing me out. Have a good day 👋
 
Epyriel said:
B) Abeloth didn’t have infinite AP for her raw telekinesis to begin with, with the actual weakening effect of the black holes being more gradual.
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It is definitely this option imo as we talking about over 100,000 years of history with the periodic breakouts she has during times of conflicts and so on.
 
Since the points are relatively light and I'm less busy than I thought, I might as well just address them.
Epyriel said:
I think this is good enough to substantiate my position, but ultimately if Abeloth is going to be upgraded in raw AP the onus will be on substantiating the other option.
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I won't repeat myself here, I'll just say we can cross that bridge when we get to it.
Epyriel said:
Except as far as I’m aware she never split herself into avatars when she was initially imprisoned.
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I'm talking about her subsequent imprisonments, so I guess I misunderstood your point.
Epyriel said:
They embody aspects of the Force, but saying they are equivalent/interchangeable with the Force itself for the sake of dodging that quote seems like a stretch.
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Whether they physically are The Force or not had nothing to do with the point; they are Force-wielders who objectively command The Force on a universal scale, as I showed here, and you can't limit them to the galaxy alone. I dodged nothing, the statement simply doesn't apply to them.

And that's just me assuming it means The Force on a large-scale rather than something akin to Darth Vader's statement that the Death Star is nothing compared to The Force. If the latter is the case, it's possible that the statement wouldn't even cover any Force entities/abilities at all.
 
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There is the fact the article mentions the Celestials did creates Abeloth before she dipped into the forbidden pool and other forbidden thing.

“Abeloth was a being created as a servant by the three Celestials: the Father, the Daughter, and the Son. In time, Abeloth won the Father’s heart, and became known as the Mother. Nowhere near as powerful as the other members of her new family, and destined to die in what would be an eyeblink for them, Abeloth drank from the Font of Power and bathed in the Pool of Knowledge — both forbidden acts — in hopes it would make her a Celestial.”

So, she got more powerful prior to her imprisonment, but after she does two forbidden things.
 
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You're mistaken.

Abeloth was a powerless mortal when The Ones made her. She drank from the font and became immortal.

She was never powerful prior to her battle with The Ones and imprisonment.
 
ByAsura said:
You're mistaken.

Abeloth was a powerless mortal when The Ones made her. She drank from the font and became immortal.

She was never powerful prior to her battle with The Ones and imprisonment.
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That is what I saying though. I saying she gotten more powerful after the forbidden pools of knowledge and font of power.
as it was mentioned in the respect thread for Abeloth that the Son and Daughter were afraid of her.

The third panel depicted the arcade complex again, this time with a much-changed Abeloth standing in the heart of a stormy courtyard. Her hair had grown coarse and long, her nose had flattened until it was practically gone, and her sparkling eyes had grown so sunken and dark that all that could be seen of them were the twinkles. She was raising her arms toward a cowering Daughter and a glowering Son, with long tentacles lashing from where her fingers should have been. Stepping forward to shield them was a furious Father, one hand pointing toward the swamp at the open end of the temple, the other reaching out to intercept her tentacled fingers.

Source: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
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I'm sorry, I don't see what your point has to do with anything. Can you explain why this is relevant?
 
ByAsura said:
I'm sorry, I don't see what your point has to do with anything. Can you explain why this is relevant?
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The Point is , it is stated she was nowhere initially powerful as the Celestials, but after she done the two forbidden acts, she seems to been comparable to the Son and Daughter. She won’t scale directly to the Father, but I will think Abeloth would still scale to the Ones, at the very least, she is comparable to them at her prime.
 
If you're referring to one of Epyriel's quotes, then that only applies to Post-Font Abeloth. However, Abeloth is on the same overall scale as The Ones, even if she's not equal to them.
 
Alright, but in that case, outside of that, I will think Abeloth gets 2 keys at least. 1 at her prime and the other after the events of her imprisonment and during the timeline of the novel.
 
Alright, as I getting a headache over the unnecessary confusion as we can’t deny the weakening effects the imprisonment it has on Abeloth before the events of the Clone Wars and post Empire Era.


I gonna ask outside of Abeloth and the Ones, is the “Variable” tier for Force Users still valid or nah?
 
ByAsura said:
Scaling them to her weakened feats is absolutely fair.

It's worth noting that The Ones are gonna become like 3-A or Low 1-C or something.
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If I remember correctly, he gave the 1A approval for the ultima beyond shadow situation, this seems to be the answer to the question that a user asked him for now.
 
Are canon Force wielders going to be 7-C with force amps? Would the mortis amp for 1-A for Anakin also factor in for canon since technically TCW up until season 6 is legends and canon?
 
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Going back into discussion of Star Wars scaling, because of the numerous contradictions T-Canon has with C-Canon, how should that be dealt with for future profiles?
 
Finiznot said:
Going back into discussion of Star Wars scaling, because of the numerous contradictions T-Canon has with C-Canon, how should that be dealt with for future profiles?
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Continuity rules set out by Lucasfilm dictates T-Canon takes precedence, so beyond that it is best to try and resolve things as best as possible to minimize retcons within C-Canon.
 
Epyriel said:
Continuity rules set out by Lucasfilm dictates T-Canon takes precedence, so beyond that it is best to try and resolve things as best as possible to minimize retcons within C-Canon.
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There's a lot that T-Canon did, Eeth Koth was stated to die in Star Wars Episode II's guide, and was brought back and no writer had any other Jedi to fill him his place for literally no writing reason.
 
If you ask me profiles like Anakin should be like this.

Anakin Skywalker (Modern)

Involving Disney Canon

Anakin Skywalker (EU)

Involving C and S canon.

Anakin Skywalker (The Clone Wars)

T-Canon involved with Disney.

The Clone Wars undoes so many events, that C-Canon is almost non-existent because of it
 
Finiznot said:
There's a lot that T-Canon did, Eeth Koth was stated to die in Star Wars Episode II's guide, and was brought back and no writer had any other Jedi to fill him his place for literally no writing reason.
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Yeah there is going to be contradictions, no real way to get around that. But we do have a clear answer for which takes precedence for determining retcons from Lucasfism’s own continuity rules.

Finiznot said:
If you ask me profiles like Anakin should be like this.

Anakin Skywalker (Modern)

Involving Disney Canon

Anakin Skywalker (EU)

Involving C and S canon.

Anakin Skywalker (The Clone Wars)

T-Canon involved with Disney.

The Clone Wars undoes so many events, that C-Canon is almost non-existent because of it
Click to expand...
Currently the plan is to separate the Legends and Canon keys onto separate profiles. Creating our own continuity rules separate from what the source authority uses is not the norm on VSBW and needlessly complicates things. But the idea that TCW retcons the entirety of C-Canon is a wild exaggeration, especially considering a good chunk of C-Canon was made post-2008 and based on TCW.
 
Epyriel said:
Yeah there is going to be contradictions, no real way to get around that. But we do have a clear answer for which takes precedence for determining retcons from Lucasfism’s own continuity rules.


Currently the plan is to separate the Legends and Canon keys onto separate profiles. Creating our own continuity rules separate from what the source authority uses is not the norm on VSBW and needlessly complicates things. But the idea that TCW retcons the entirety of C-Canon is a wild exaggeration, especially considering a good chunk of C-Canon was made post-2008 and based on TCW.
Click to expand...
Didn't C-Canon exist before T-Canon?
 
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Finiznot said:
Didn't C-Canon exist before T-Canon?
Click to expand...
Some of it. C-Canon is extremely expansive, and includes a vast number of books and comics, some of which came out prior to 2008 when TCW first launched, and plenty more that came out between 2008 and 2014.
 
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