Canon Star Wars: Revenge of the Downgrade

[Idazmi]

Kylo never overpowered Luke, he just tried to attack him with his lightsaber and collapsed the hut they were in. In fact, Luke was able to effortlessly avoid each and every one of his moves while projecting himself from half-way across the galaxy, and effortlessly fight off the Knights of Ren singlehandedly (whereas Kylo had trouble fighting their leader even after he rebelled against Luke). He's exceptional, there's no denying that, but not to the level you're claiming. Kylo doesn't even utilise this dyad until episode 8.

I don't know how you can think that Luke "fighting" Kylo with an intangible hologram counts as a combat feat, nor do I understand how Kylo rendering Luke unconscious with a single move doesn't count. Unless you're telling me that Luke was knocked out by just the hut collapsing, which given your argument so far, would be ridiculous.

I know he said raw strength, but he later confirms he meant potential. This is consistently implied throughout the film. Note Snoke's word chose; "Raw, untaimed power."

• LUKE: And I became a legend. For many years, there was balance.... and then I saw Ben. My nephew with that mighty Skywalker blood. And in my hubris, I thought I could train him, I could pass on my strengths. Han was Han about it, but Leia trusted me with her son. I took him, and a dozen students, and began a training temple. By the time I realized I was no match for the darkness rising in him, it was too late.
• SNOKE: Hmm. The mighty Kylo Ren. When I found you... I saw what all masters live to see. Raw, untamed power. And beyond that, something truly special. The potential of your bloodline. A new Vader. Now I fear... I was mistaken.
• SNOKE: Skywalker lives. The seed of the Jedi Order lives. As long as it does, hope lives in the galaxy. I thought you would be the one to snuff it out. Alas, you're no Vader. You're just a child in a mask.

Snoke clearly refers to Kylo's potential as being beyond his current "raw untamed power"... which plainly supports what I said.

And what of the comics, novels and Fallen Order? Here's a few examples: Vader parts dam water, Vader lifts a massive piece of machinery and stops a fortress from getting flooded, and Vader slams two U-wings together. Also, literally all you proved there was that Rebels Vader isn't "ordinary". Yet Yoda lifts mountains in the comics, proving my point that Disney Force-Users >>>> Pre-Disney Force-Users (excluding Legends, obviously).

Star Wars Rebels is Disney, guy: I think the difference here is less "Disney vs Pre-Disney" than it is "Comics vs Filmed media." As it was before Disney ever owned the brand.

She didn't expect it to happen because lightning literally came out of her finger tips, which is the result of her being Palpatine's granddaughter. The novel confirms the was dumbfounded by the act itself and that the lightning was drawn out by her anger. Rey is also considerably more powerful than the previous episode due to training with Leia.

• Her anger at him for what he had done—and what he would do— reached a breaking point. From it erupted a power she didn’t realize she had. She almost screamed as it coursed from her hands, a shock of blue electricity that lanced upward and struck the transport like a lightning bolt. A lightning bolt might have fizzled against the ship’s shields, but this was no ordinary lightning bolt. It was the raw energy of the Force, directed by her anger. It went right through the shields into the reactor core. Voices cried out in the Force as the transport exploded. Rey staggered back from the fireball in the sky. Pieces of the ship crashed around her like meteors. She stood there in disbelief, not fully comprehending what had just happened.

The fact that Palpatine was restored by the Dyad and effortlessly overpowered both of them proves they're not on the same level as this Dyad.

I never said anyone was on par with the Dyad.

Blaster deflection has only been done by Maul, Vader, Rey, Palpatine, etc, but my point was that none of them were in the position to do that. Notice they don't use force jump or speed either?

Ki-Adi Mundi was, and he used his lightsaber. Also, Force Jump and Force Speed are both shown to leave a Jedi somewhat vulnerable for a brief period after use: Jedi rarely use either when under heavy fire unless they are Anakin Skywalker.

Or Kanan and Ezra, two characters who are nowhere near Jedi Masters.

These abilities aren't uncommon, they just weren't implemented in canon until after the original and prequel trilogies were created.

I don't remember Kanan and Ezra ever freezing a bunch of stormtroopers in place in Star Wars Rebels.

 

[ByAsura]

I forgot it didn't actually track his movements. Never mind on this point, but the Knights of Ren thing still counts. Kylo didn't knock Luke unconscious, he collapsed the building on him. You can literally see the force blast miss Luke and the debris fall on him. The novel confirms it.

• Then Ben reaches up toward the ceiling with his free hand, compelling the stones to come crashing down on Luke’s head.

"Raw untamed power". He's clearly saying he can draw out more power, which fits with his comments of Kylo potentially being the next Vader.

I know Rebels is Disney. Note that I said and highlighted in general to this exact point before. Rebels is not filmed media.

The point is, there's no indication (at least that I can find) the Dyad was the reason for Rey's force lightning in that scene.

Obi-Wan casually did it instantly in the middle of deflecting blaster bolts. So have Anakin (as you mentioned), Cere, Qui-Gon and Maul.

Kanan freezes a fan in Vision of Hope, which is apparently force stasis (the wiki says so, but I don't really trust it). He also freezes a stormtrooper in a later episode.

 

[Idazmi]

I forgot it didn't actually track his movements. Never mind on this point, but the Knights of Ren thing still counts. Kylo didn't knock Luke unconscious, he collapsed the building on him. You can literally see the force blast miss Luke and the debris fall on him. The novel confirms it.

• Then Ben reaches up toward the ceiling with his free hand, compelling the stones to come crashing down on Luke’s head.

I'm not saying he force-pushed Luke. I'm saying the hut didn't just "collapse" - Kylo actively propelled those stones into him with the Force. Any less would essentially be a durability anti-feat.

"Raw untamed power". He's clearly saying he can draw out more power, which fits with his comments of Kylo potentially being the next Vader.

I never said anything contradicting that. I'm saying Kylo had "raw power" even before drawing out his true potential.

I know Rebels is Disney. Note that I said and highlighted in general to this exact point before. Rebels is not filmed media.

"Filmed media" as in "within the medium of film and television". As opposed to comic books, novels, and video games.

The point is, there's no indication (at least that I can find) the Dyad was the reason for Rey's force lightning in that scene.

The lightning comes from Palpatine. That said, the Dyad was definitely the reason said lightning was powerful enough to obliterate a transport in one shot.

Obi-Wan casually did it instantly in the middle of deflecting blaster bolts. So have Anakin (as you mentioned), Cere, Qui-Gon and Maul.

I'm aware of that scene from The Phantom Menace, which is why I said it was rare for Jedi to use Force Speed under fire. It's not a thing you often see.

Kanan freezes a fan in Vision of Hope, which is apparently force stasis (the wiki says so, but I don't really trust it). He also freezes a stormtrooper in a later episode.

Not entire groups of them. I'd say that's just normal use of Force telekinesis, no different than Force Choke.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

What I find absolutely hilarious about Kylo vs Vader right now is that SethTheProgrammer just did a Video about these two fighting. XD

unironically good video, to bad it's mostly TFA Kylo vs Vader.

 

[ByAsura]

All he did was cause them to crash down on them. There's no proof that he did anything less than collapse the hut with the force by shifting the roof. Also, he was heavily distracted by the thought of killing Ben (something that canonically does affect force powers), so it's not an anti-durability feat.

Raw power that's not superior to Vader is what I'm saying. Luke's raw power quote obviously means his untapped potential.

I thought you meant live action because Rebels was never filmed, it was animated. I was just never aware of the term "filmed media". Anyway, Rebels doesn't stand higher in canon than the novels or books. It's also hilariously kiddified (with a few notable exceptions).

But that's the point: they do it under fire, as have other characters on many occasions. It's not that they can't do it under fire, it's that the characters killed in Order 66 weren't in the situation to do this kind of thing.

Something that's never proven or even indicated in the films, novels, or any media.

My point is just that these powers are common and the Jedi could have used them to great effect against the Clones. The fact that they didn't doesn't prove they haven't, it's just that they were retconned into existence.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Can Force users amp up their Physicals such as Durability without the need for Force Barries and such, however first we need to decide if it can be done passively, I argued yes showing My Kylo Ren example, however, most don't agree based on who Kylo Ren is, so Passive force amp would only apply to Kylo ren and Rey I guess because of the Dyad.

So Here's a bunch of Jedi surviving things far ahead of any foddertroopers and their LETHAL BLASTERS.



1. Here a Barely Trained Padawan Kanan takes a shot from an AT-DP Which has an energy Yield of High 8-C based on being able to destroy other At-DP's which can tank Thermal detonators which have been calced at Large building level+

This is consistent with Padawan level strength As calced here by Spino which ranges from High 8-C to 8-B and it's also the "spectrum" most force Canon users will be after the AP revisions.

2.Here Kanan and Sabine survive another hit from an AT-DP which yields High 8-C Energy

3. Here Ahsoka survives a Thermal mine without any damage They should be comparable to Thermal detonators.

4. Here's Ezra Bridger without much training moving out of the way of a Tie Fighter blast (this is a Pretty good speed feat so thought id add it)

5. Kenobi Surviving Rockets from Jango Fett which have been stated and shown to be superior to random Detonators that are HIGH 8-C

6. Kenobi surviving blasts from the Slave I which after the Revisions will be 8-B.

7. Here Anakin Skywalker Survives a Direct Force Push From Savage and THE SON who should be massively above the likes of Padawan Ahsoka who performed a 8-B feat.

8. Mace Windu gets hit by a rocket that he isn't aware of and survives Mando Rockets> thermal detonators

9.the same feat applies to Ayla Secura See above ^

10.Darth Vader surviving multiple shots from an AT-AT

11. Vader tanking a Saber blow from behind which would beat High 8-C based on Saber standards

there is actually some cool blitzing feats id like to highlight but I wanna do this piece by piece to avoid too many walls of text as I know they can be annoying to read.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

It can tank them detonators it should be at least city block plus level for that object or person. Kenbodi should be at least multi-city block-level unaided and likely far higher. Then At least small town plus level for the sun. At least small city to city level for Vader is likely far higher. We need a Lucrehulk and Malevlonce pages. Witch should be at least small country plus level being far more massive than the Ventator or imperial classes.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

The Bunker Buster should not be as durable as a Resurgent class witch should be at least an order of magnitude tougher. Or should the Resurgent class be scaled to a super heavy corvette and not something like a Lucrehulk and Malevlonce grade warships at least that if not something like an early Mandator and Praetor type warship witch at least 250-300 years old

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

The large capital ships over 1,000 meters need major upgrades to the overall stats. Starfighter and bombers need major major upgrades.

 

[Idazmi]

Raw power that's not superior to Vader is what I'm saying. Luke's raw power quote obviously means his untapped potential.

"Hmm. The mighty Kylo Ren. When I found you... I saw what all masters live to see. Raw, untamed power. And beyond that, something truly special. The potential of your bloodline. A new Vader. Now I fear... I was mistaken." - Snoke

Snoke's raw power quote is obviously not referring to his untapped potential, as his potential is beyond the power he currently has. Also, Snoke - like Palpatine, who he is channeling - is deliberately messing with Kylo's mind here, playing on his insecurities. Kylo's feats at this point include halting a blaster bolt in midair, and multiple other feats well beyond Vader's demonstrations in the films.

I thought you meant live action because Rebels was never filmed, it was animated. I was just never aware of the term "filmed media". Anyway, Rebels doesn't stand higher in canon than the novels or books. It's also hilariously kiddified (with a few notable exceptions).

The feats for Force Users in Star Wars Rebels are not of any lesser demonstration than what we see in the original movies or The Clone Wars, all of which were technically made for children according to George Lucas himself:




The intended age group is not a factor here: only the feats.

But that's the point: they do it under fire, as have other characters on many occasions. It's not that they can't do it under fire, it's that the characters killed in Order 66 weren't in the situation to do this kind of thing.

Not on "many" occasions, which is my point. You do not often see Jedi using Force Speed while deflecting blaster fire, and even in The Phantom Menace, they used it in a short burst to escape.

Something that's never proven or even indicated in the films, novels, or any media.

Nothing that I've said is coming from anything aside from the canon, which is why I keep posting video of the canon to support my argument.

My point is just that these powers are common and the Jedi could have used them to great effect against the Clones. The fact that they didn't doesn't prove they haven't, it's just that they were retconned into existence.

Now that makes sense. And it creates a conundrum for accurate scaling on this wiki: at what point do we make a distinction between the original Star Wars and Disney's retcons? If we accept Disney's retcons wholesale, The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith become "The Outlier Trilogy". The fact is, those three are a major, major part of Star Wars as a whole, and should not simply be ignored in favor of spinoff comic books.

 

[ByAsura]

"The potential of your bloodline. A new Vader." Snoke says this and then claims that Ben hasn't become what he wanted. This 100% refers to potential.

Except for the Temple Explosion, Kanan and Ezra deflecting TIE Fighter blasts, characters slowing down shuttles, etc. In the OG trilogy, Yoda practically had a heart attack lifting a 10-ton X-wing out of water, and Vader considered jumping 10 or so metres to be impressive for a Jedi. Hell, as I said before, even the prequels increased their range of powers.

People get their limbs chopped off, not to mention the death of Luke's aunt and uncle. They purposely avoid that in Rebels to keep with their 6-year old demographic. "The intended age group is not a factor here: only the feats." I disagree because they'll purposely downscale a show to appeal to their audiences.

You posted that the Dyad is exponentially stronger than them when they fight together. There's none of that here, and this is shown when they're easily beaten by a massively weakened Palpatine, yet the Dyad gives him an enormous amp.

Disney is Canon. It's not separate, so this will never happen unless it's bought out by another company and declared non-canon.

 

[Idazmi]

"The potential of your bloodline. A new Vader." Snoke says this and then claims that Ben hasn't become what he wanted. This 100% refers to potential.

And it's also 100% manipulation of Kylo, using his insecurities to control him.

Except for the Temple Explosion, Kanan and Ezra deflecting TIE Fighter blasts, characters slowing down shuttles, etc. In the OG trilogy, Yoda practically had a heart attack lifting a 10-ton X-wing out of water, and Vader considered jumping 10 or so metres to be impressive for a Jedi. Hell, as I said before, even the prequels increased their range of powers.

R2-D2 survived a TIE fighter blast:




So Jedi deflecting them isn't strange, since I'm sure we're both certain a lightsaber would cut straight through him.

People get their limbs chopped off, not to mention the death of Luke's aunt and uncle. They purposely avoid that in Rebels to keep with their 6-year old demographic. "The intended age group is not a factor here: only the feats." I disagree because they'll purposely downscale a show to appeal to their audiences.

You are directly contradicting your previous point. No, the feats are not being downscaled: only the visible death and dismemberment of living things: Vader still survived the Sith Temple explosion, and being crushed by AT-ST walkers.

You posted that the Dyad is exponentially stronger than them when they fight together. There's none of that here, and this is shown when they're easily beaten by a massively weakened Palpatine, yet the Dyad gives him an enormous amp.

No, I didn't say any such thing. I said the Dyad (Kylo and Rey) is more powerful than any Force User, which it is. The Force, like any weapon, is a thing that requires skill to wield, and a skilled practitioner of old age would still be able to defeat a stronger, but lesser-skilled opponent.



Lessons from reality: age and experience can defeat youth and power, quite handily, in fact.

Disney is Canon. It's not separate, so this will never happen unless it's bought out by another company and declared non-canon.

I didn't say Disney's additions aren't canon: I'm saying they shouldn't be considered more canon than the films. By continually overriding the feats and anti-feats in the films in favor of comics and the like, that is essentially what you are doing. You're the one who said that Disney is retconning new Force Powers into existence. If we accept Disney's retcons wholesale, that does create a problem - if these new powers were always available to average Jedi, it would make the entire previously established lore functionally broken by way of being impossible.

The biggest example offhand: the Clone Army would have no real way to deal with an army of Force Users casually freezing entire platoons of them in suspended animation while simultaneously blitzing about the battlefield at supersonic speeds, and deflecting blaster fire with their bare hands. Equally, there's no way the Mandalorians could have ever been a threat to the Jedi if they were capable of feats like this.

 

[ByAsura]

Given the context—Ben failed Snoke, was beaten by Rey, etc—the quote didn't seem like manipulation. Even in the next film, it's implied this was true.

• PALPATINE: The might of the Final Order will soon be ready. It will be yours if you do as I ask. Kill the girl! End the Jedi.... and become what your grandfather Vader could not.

R2-D2 survived a glancing blow. Those same blasts were capable of one-shotting X-wings and unshielded Y-wings. This isn't speculation either because it happens earlier in the same scene.

Here's the exact quote you provided. It suggests no such thing.

• "The connection between Kylo Ren and Rey could cover a range of light-years, allowing them to see and hear each other from across the galaxy.[4] Their bond also gave them a clear sense of what the other felt, such as their fears as well as feelings of abandonment and solitude.[5] In combat, when the two formed the dyad and fought as one, their Force powers mirrored and amplified each other. Their bond grew stronger with every passing moment.[1]"

Palpatine just used telekinesis and force drain effortlessly overpower them, which the novel confirms they were helpless against. There's no age and experience bs.

Edit: I'm trying to upload this scan, but both this new forum and the changes to the old wiki are preventing me.

I know what you said, I'm just saying that's not how things work on this wiki. There's also ways to explain them in canon.

Beskar is lightsaber resistant.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Beskar is lightsaber resistant.

Beskar actually has some good durability feats aswell. might bring it up on your thread.

 

[ByAsura]

Speaking of which, has the 1 CRT per verse rule been lifted?

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Idazmi Vader also lived multiple trained soldiers mere second and nearly choked to death a male human fully grown. Plus referring to all such weapon systems as blasters laser cannons and turbolaser is like referring to all weapons as gunpower rocket or explosive while technically accurate it gives you no idea and what kind of weapon you are dealing with. Turbolasers Laser Cannons And Blasters are electromagnetic gravitationally accelerated hyper dense high energy particle and phased plasma-based weapons not any neither true lasers like the ones we would understand the term to be. Plus The .5 class light speed quote means .5 seconds till we get into hyperspace. Considering Star Wars starships are more capable of going from zero to the speed of light in mere fractions of an earth mere second.Multiple Times in every single peace of star wars lore.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Speaking of which, has the 1 CRT per verse rule been lifted?

I'm not sure.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

You posted that the Dyad is exponentially stronger than them when they fight together. There's none of that here, and this is shown when they're easily beaten by a massively weakened Palpatine, yet the Dyad gives him an enormous amp.

to be fair to them even crippled Palaptine is massively amped as Exogol, as the planet is a darkside Vergence which allows users to amp themselves.
so this is less of an anti feat for Kylo and Rey and more of a Feat for TROS Palpatine.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Narratively the idea here is to present to us that Kylo and Rey are some of the most powerful force users, they are certainly not average but without direct comparisons to characters like Vader we can't really scale them to him.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Krayt Dargon attack potency durability striking strength feats and pages for the trade federation battleships core ships droid control ship and the subjugator class battleship superlaser siege cannon durability attack potency and speed based feats need to be done for those pages already it is taking way to long to do them and they are not part of the universe now. They need to have those pages done as soon as possible because it is extremely important that we get those done also for the Mc95 and MC75 mon calamari starships. Done them for the Vengence Sovergian Viscount Asserator and more classes of star dreadnought grade capital ships. If we do legends ships we might as well to the more famous ones and get some additional cannon starships and vehicles. It really needs to be done sooner rather than later much sooner rather than later/

 

[ByAsura]

@ShadoW We probably should just scale Rey and Kylo based on their own feats.

The point of that was also less that Palpatine was massively weakened (he is still portrayed as more crippled and weak than his Endor self), more that Rey and Kylo were effortlessly defeated, yet their Dyad greatly amplified his power.

@CSO I'm planning to make an MC75 page.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

We probably should just scale Rey and Kylo based on their own feats.

alot of their feats are statements and accolades and stuff (like most star wars characters), the problem is when we do this then everyone and their mother wants to auto-scale the entire Prequel era Jedi to them which I'm heavily against.

 

[LordTracer]

Speaking of which, has the 1 CRT per verse rule been lifted?

It hasn’t.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@ByAsura It's probably going to be months before that rule gets lifted; several staff have been struggling to keep up even with that rule in mind which lifting it now is only going to make those problems skyrocket. And the rule goes double for super big revisions for controversial verses, which people have attempted those too.

 

[Idazmi]

Given the context—Ben failed Snoke, was beaten by Rey, etc—the quote didn't seem like manipulation. Even in the next film, it's implied this was true.

• PALPATINE: The might of the Final Order will soon be ready. It will be yours if you do as I ask. Kill the girl! End the Jedi.... and become what your grandfather Vader could not.

What do you mean, it "didn't seem like manipulation"?



Palpatine is offering Kylo power beyond his wildest dreams by declaring that he will be greater than Vader - Kylo's one known desire. As Snoke (since Snoke was merely a literal puppet of Palpatine) he was always threatening that Kylo would never surpass Vader:



This is manipulation, plain and simple. Classic Palpatine: a lying manipulator who pulls the emotions of his underlings, just like he did with Anakin:



Dude's never changed.

R2-D2 survived a glancing blow. Those same blasts were capable of one-shotting X-wings and unshielded Y-wings. This isn't speculation either because it happens earlier in the same scene.

Here's handheld blasters destroying Poe Dameron's X-Wing at 2:41:



Also, those blasts from Vader both directly hit Artoo's dome:



And we know starfighters of all types contain fuel and ammunition, which can explode. Blaster bolts are hot, and can trigger such explosions.

Here's the exact quote you provided. It suggests no such thing.

• "The connection between Kylo Ren and Rey could cover a range of light-years, allowing them to see and hear each other from across the galaxy.[4] Their bond also gave them a clear sense of what the other felt, such as their fears as well as feelings of abandonment and solitude.[5] In combat, when the two formed the dyad and fought as one, their Force powers mirrored and amplified each other. Their bond grew stronger with every passing moment.[1]"

Palpatine just used telekinesis and force drain effortlessly overpower them, which the novel confirms they were helpless against. There's no age and experience bs.

That's because it should have been self-explanitory, being that we've seen Star Wars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_dwkjQHre0

Palpatine - a very old man - casually takes out three Jedi Masters with skill and struggles against Master Windu for several minutes. At no point does he demonstrate some overwhelming power that the Jedi can't compete with - he just outdoes them. Defeating Rey and Kylo - who don't have anywhere near his knowledge and familiarity with the Force - would be a comparative cakewalk, and it was, until Rey started channeling all the Jedi. Rey's lack of experience would also explain how she struggles - yes, struggles - against stormtroopers on bikes when she can apparently obliterate a transport. The Force is a tool and a weapon that requires skill to use. It also requires a certain calm state of mind to remain attuned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=infZSKB5L9I

Always was this way.

I know what you said, I'm just saying that's not how things work on this wiki. There's also ways to explain them in canon.

As far as I can tell, major discrepancies like this are not just ignored on this wiki. They are evaluated case-by-case, and appropriate action taken once the situation is evaluated.

Beskar is lightsaber resistant.

https://youtu.be/R1MwQ1hCvOk?t=55

That means literally nothing if a Force user can casually blow up an entire transport with lightning, or use precision and force-speed to casually cut between the armor pieces like the Mandalorian is standing still. Beskar may as well be paper when fighting something of that magnitude.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

@Idazmi excellent points but blaster bolts should not have been able to do that as any starfighter grade hull should easily be able to tank a thermal detonator at large building plus level but they might have been hundreds of such blaster bolts being fired at a time. that shuttle should be much tougher considering it is far larger than a mere x wing and more the size of a regional airliner. Even a heavy auto blaster like an e web should not be able to penetrate the hull for at least a few seconds. And such craft can flay at many dozens to hundreds of kilometers per second in mete minutes and cover many hundreds of thousands to millions of kilometers in a few minutes to about 15-20 minutes. And can travel many tens of thousands of light-years in under a quarter of a day. Given a small compact shuttlepod and not a state of the art advanced military craft went more than halfway across the galaxy in under a few hours at the very most. The T-85 should be much faster tougher and more lethal than the T70 x wing craft.

 

[ByAsura]

Killing Snoke was a large part of Kylo's training—what he was cloned for, in fact. Of course Palpatine's objective would be different after killing Snoke (Snoke himself being a puppet of Palpatine). The fact that he also wants Kylo to be as great and powerful as Vader proves it wasn't all manipulation.

Firstly, that Stormtrooper had a heavy blaster cannon, which are leagues above normal blaster pistols and carbines. Second, Poe's X-wing was unshielded, while X-wings at the Battle of Yavin were. Lastly, my point was that glancing blows from Starfighters are nowhere near as strong as direct hits, which I've sufficiently proven.

"And we know starfighters of all types contain fuel and ammunition, which can explode. Blaster bolts are hot, and can trigger such explosions." Doesn't that contradict your own point, if anything, because you're arguing they're not very durable? Now you're saying the fuel and ammunition is the reason why they're exploding.

Here's Palpatine vs. Yoda, where he overpowers the latter with force lightning. His most typical move isn't lightsaber combat (something he does excel at), it's force lightning and telekinesis. That also doesn't really address the scan I provided that shows Palpatine overpowered them, plus the fact that he used telekinesis and force drain rather than experience.

We have in dozens of threads like this. The end result is always the same: the Force is a concentration-based ability, and the Jedi can be killed by blaster bolts if they're not lucky. This is why Jango Fett isn't Planet level in Legends, or Large Town level in Canon.

Most Force-users don't have Force Lightning and can't super speed their way through a wall of blaster bolts.

To be honest, this discussion isn't really relevant to the thread and should be brought up in a different one. I'm dropping it and focusing on a couple of other threads and projects I have ATM.

 

[Idazmi]

Killing Snoke was a large part of Kylo's training—what he was cloned for, in fact. Of course Palpatine's objective would be different after killing Snoke (Snoke himself being a puppet of Palpatine). The fact that he also wants Kylo to be as great and powerful as Vader proves it wasn't all manipulation.

No, your reference proves even more that Kylo was being manipulated the whole time, not realizing that Snoke was a literal puppet. The constant Vader teasing was the proverbial "carrot on a stick", and at the end, Palpatine offered him the ability to "become what your grandfather, Vader, could not" as the final offering in exchange for his subservience. These are well known psychological tricks used by emotionally abusive people the world over. None of that relates to Kylo's actual power - only Kylo's own perception, as manipulated by his master.

Firstly, that Stormtrooper had a heavy blaster cannon, which are leagues above normal blaster pistols and carbines. Second, Poe's X-wing was unshielded, while X-wings at the Battle of Yavin were. Lastly, my point was that glancing blows from Starfighters are nowhere near as strong as direct hits, which I've sufficiently proven.

I saw what he was holding, and no, you haven't proven that Artoo was glancingly struck, because both blaster bolts directly impact his dome head-on and explode:




It's not even ambiguous: you can see it just fine. Thus, it isn't any upgrade for a Jedi to be able to block them with a lightsaber. For further reference:




Each of those blasters seem to be doing pretty much what that heavy blaster cannon was doing, damage wise.

"And we know starfighters of all types contain fuel and ammunition, which can explode. Blaster bolts are hot, and can trigger such explosions." Doesn't that contradict your own point, if anything, because you're arguing they're not very durable? Now you're saying the fuel and ammunition is the reason why they're exploding.

No, it doesn't contradict my point, because I never said or implied Starfighters were any more durable than they are demonstrated to be. They are exploding because the fuel tanks/ammunition are being hit by the hot plasma bolts, otherwise they'd just fill with holes instead of blowing up. This is consistent: you can see it with the Tie Defender in the other scene I linked, and with Poe Dameron's X-Wing.

Here's Palpatine vs. Yoda, where he overpowers the latter with force lightning. His most typical move isn't lightsaber combat (something he does excel at), it's force lightning and telekinesis. That also doesn't really address the scan I provided that shows Palpatine overpowered them, plus the fact that he used telekinesis and force drain rather than experience.

Let's look at 3:31 in your own source:



Notice the total lack of a transport killing explosion, despite all that power building up between them. Now look at Rey:



Considering that Kylo is in a Dyad with her... why are you trying to tell me Kylo is weaker than Vader?

We have in dozens of threads like this. The end result is always the same: the Force is a concentration-based ability, and the Jedi can be killed by blaster bolts if they're not lucky. This is why Jango Fett isn't Planet level in Legends, or Large Town level in Canon.

You mean, "if they lose concentration" - Obi-Wan doesn't believe in luck. Even if that's true, with our current scaling, I'd imagine that Mandalorians fighting a literal war against the Jedi Order - all or most of whom are supposedly able to destroy entire towns, freeze multiple enemies in stasis, and equal or surpass Kylo's and Rey's destructive feats - would be amusingly short and make the Mandalorian people look incredibly, incredibly stupid, even if they were all equal to Din Djarin and Jango Fett.

Most Force-users don't have Force Lightning and can't super speed their way through a wall of blaster bolts.

Oh so? But you said this in comment #160:

These abilities aren't uncommon, they just weren't implemented in canon until after the original and prequel trilogies were created.

You're contradicting yourself again. Either most Force Users can do these things, or they can't.

 

[ByAsura]

I said I wasn't going to respond, but your last point is accusing me of something I didn't do based on a misunderstanding. I will stop responding if this doesn't happen again.

Palpatine and Snoke have the same objective because they're the same person. They both want Kylo to unleash his potential and become the next Vader. While they are manipulating him, their plans are still the same (until Palpatine changed them half-way through the film). This fits with Luke's comments on his potential and Kylo's belief that he's not as strong as Vader.

Here's the bolt. It skims the top of his head and explodes. It is by definition a glancing blow.

Rebels TIE Fighter blasts aren't a good measuring stick for firepower. Here's a clip those same blasts doing nothing to the environment around them. These are also heavy laser cannons (the same one as Vader's TIE Advanced, interestingly), meaning they should be vastly above even starship-mounted blaster cannons, let alone hand-held cannons.

If you'd actually read the Star Wars media you get this off, then you'd know these plasma blasts outright vaporize and disintegrate these ships, causing explosions. There's nothing to do with fuel or ammunition, typically (there's exceptions, like the primed explosives in The Last Jedi).

• Tarkin monitored the ground-feed holovids. The droid fighters were highly manoeuvrable but no match for Sentinel's powerful guns. The moon's storm-racked sky grew backlit with strobing flashes and globular detonations, as one after another of the ridge-backed tri-fighters and reconfigurable vultures was vaporized.
• The larger, crewed, swivel-mounted gun bubbles on either side of the transport's midline swung around and opened fire with fat pulses of red plasma. "Widen your spacing," the squadron commander said over the comm. "Spacing!" A burst of red plasma caught one of the V-wings squarely and vaporized it.
• The two blips reappeared, and Skywalker called out for Biggs. But it was Red Two that vaporized the Imperial pursuer.
• Descending, the Carrion Spike fell prey to four starfighters, which unloaded on her, taxing the resiliency of her powerful shields but emerging from the confrontation unscathed. Not until the corvette was tucked safely beneath the tanker once more did she reply, with powerful volleys from the lateral laser cannons that caught Yellows Seven and Eight and disintegrated them.

Yes, because Yoda was absorbing most of it.

Kylo wasn't in the Dyad with her at that moment, or at least they weren't using it. Because he is weaker than Vader, who has felled much larger freighters (albeit damaged ones) with the Force. Palpatine also did the same while applying a fraction of his power.

• Vader, too, lifted a hand and reached out with the Force toward the other ship. Vader enmeshed himself in the Force, in his seething, ever-present wrath, and used it to take hold of the freighter and drive the entire ship toward the ground. He grunted with the effort, his respirator increasing his rate of breathing to account for the exertion. The ship, its damaged engines unable to compensate enough against the downward push of Vader’s power, went nose-down and streaked into the ground. Vader imagined the screams of the pilots as they watched the forest race toward them. The ship disappeared behind the tree line and exploded into a fireball that reached above the forest’s canopy and caused the ground to vibrate. A cloud of black smoke rose into the darkening sky.

I'm actually planning to downgrade Force-Users to a much lower rating, so I agree with you there. As for the powers, the Jedi that can do (Cal, Vader, Kanan, etc) this are still killed and harmed by blasters.

I didn't contradict myself. I never claimed they had Force Lightning (something that only pre-Attack of the Clones Dooku has used without being a Dark Sider), and I was saying that you can't use super speed to run through a wall of projectiles.

 

[Idazmi]

I said I wasn't going to respond, but your last point is accusing me of something I didn't do based on a misunderstanding. I will stop responding if this doesn't happen again.

Palpatine and Snoke have the same objective because they're the same person. They both want Kylo to unleash his potential and become the next Vader. While they are manipulating him, their plans are still the same (until Palpatine changed them half-way through the film). This fits with Luke's comments on his potential and Kylo's belief that he's not as strong as Vader.

He wants Kylo to unleash his potential, yes. The fact that he wants to unleash Kylo's potential does not imply that Kylo is currently below Vader level - it implies that Palpatine/Snoke is power hungry and desires the strongest possible apprentice. To do this, he leverages Kylo's fear that he will never be as strong as Vader, just like he leveraged Vader's fear of losing his wife.

Keep in mind that Kylo never even met Vader. Vader was dead before he was even born, and Anakin's Force Ghost wouldn't tell him to be on the Dark Side. Kylo is also irrational, prone to severe mood swings, throws tantrums and destroys things around him like a petulant child. Kylo's own view of the situation obviously cannot be relied upon, and Palpatine only ever speaks to him to tighten the grasp he has on his fragile psyche, so he cannot be trusted either. Relying on demonstrated feats, Kylo is stronger - a lot stronger - than Vader, and he still has farther to go beyond that.

Here's the bolt. It skims the top of his head and explodes. It is by definition a glancing blow.

Rebels TIE Fighter blasts aren't a good measuring stick for firepower. Here's a clip those same blasts doing nothing to the environment around them. These are also heavy laser cannons (the same one as Vader's TIE Advanced, interestingly), meaning they should be vastly above even starship-mounted blaster cannons, let alone hand-held cannons.

If you'd actually read the Star Wars media you get this off, then you'd know these plasma blasts outright vaporize and disintegrate these ships, causing explosions. There's nothing to do with fuel or ammunition, typically (there's exceptions, like the primed explosives in The Last Jedi).

• Tarkin monitored the ground-feed holovids. The droid fighters were highly manoeuvrable but no match for Sentinel's powerful guns. The moon's storm-racked sky grew backlit with strobing flashes and globular detonations, as one after another of the ridge-backed tri-fighters and reconfigurable vultures was vaporized.
• The larger, crewed, swivel-mounted gun bubbles on either side of the transport's midline swung around and opened fire with fat pulses of red plasma. "Widen your spacing," the squadron commander said over the comm. "Spacing!" A burst of red plasma caught one of the V-wings squarely and vaporized it.
• The two blips reappeared, and Skywalker called out for Biggs. But it was Red Two that vaporized the Imperial pursuer.
• Descending, the Carrion Spike fell prey to four starfighters, which unloaded on her, taxing the resiliency of her powerful shields but emerging from the confrontation unscathed. Not until the corvette was tucked safely beneath the tanker once more did she reply, with powerful volleys from the lateral laser cannons that caught Yellows Seven and Eight and disintegrated them.

I want to know how nothing in this entire scene was vaporized or disintegrated by an entire flight of attacking X-Wings. Not the fighters, not the rocks, not even the Stormtroopers on the ground. Additionally, Star Wars Rebels is also canon, friend. That makes this a canon Tie Defender:




This demonstration is not any different than what we see in The Force Awakens - neither Poe's X-Wing getting destroyed by Stormtroopers with handheld blasters, nor Sabine shooting up the stormtroopers and the landed fighters in that Tie Defender. Add that to the fact that Artoo survived a blaster hit from Darth Vader:




Seems to me that we've just proven that there's a consistent contradiction between the filmed media and the novels. The sort that justifies a separate tier listing, unless you can explain why all the debris we're looking at is actually vapor.

Yes, because Yoda was absorbing most of it.

No. Because the lightning isn't a powerful as Rey's. Not unless we've seen Palpatine destroy a transport with lightning... without the Dyad amping him.

Kylo wasn't in the Dyad with her at that moment, or at least they weren't using it. Because he is weaker than Vader, who has felled much larger freighters (albeit damaged ones) with the Force. Palpatine also did the same while applying a fraction of his power.

• Vader, too, lifted a hand and reached out with the Force toward the other ship. Vader enmeshed himself in the Force, in his seething, ever-present wrath, and used it to take hold of the freighter and drive the entire ship toward the ground. He grunted with the effort, his respirator increasing his rate of breathing to account for the exertion. The ship, its damaged engines unable to compensate enough against the downward push of Vader’s power, went nose-down and streaked into the ground. Vader imagined the screams of the pilots as they watched the forest race toward them. The ship disappeared behind the tree line and exploded into a fireball that reached above the forest’s canopy and caused the ground to vibrate. A cloud of black smoke rose into the darkening sky.

That's not how the Dyad works. The Dyad between Rey and Kylo merely exists, it is not in any way dependent on either of them "entering" a dyad with the other: they are a Dyad in the Force. That is the source of the extreme power they demonstrate.

I'm actually planning to downgrade Force-Users to a much lower rating, so I agree with you there. As for the powers, the Jedi that can do (Cal, Vader, Kanan, etc) this are still killed and harmed by blasters.

Then we can agree on this point.

I didn't contradict myself. I never claimed they had Force Lightning (something that only pre-Attack of the Clones Dooku has used without being a Dark Sider), and I was saying that you can't use super speed to run through a wall of projectiles.

Yes you did. Saying that a power "isn't uncommon" and then saying "Most Jedi can't (do said thing)" is a contradiction. And I never said that Jedi commonly use Force Lightning.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

@Idazmi the events are not those turbo laser blasts with is street level and fail to kill a human target even that is contradicted by the source material directly. This is now way turbolaser shots are street level. Plus rebels needed a nigh budget it was for kids and really is a secondary canon source the movies and thier material always comes first in Star Wars. Most of the feats are not cannon. Nor the serpent tiering system is anyway justified at all. Because it was a movie. Books for the movies will and should override all other cannon but the movies themselves that are the way star wars works and will continue to work long into the future. Because it is not a consistent contradiction vapor can make debris it does not have to be clean in any way shape or form. Because the Main movies do not like to show disintegrations atomizations or vaporizations very much.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

@Idazmi Rebels can not make a cannon acute star destroyer model for god's sake. It was a plot device like R2 serving a laser cannon tie fighters use laser cannons and not blaster cannons they are different types of weapon systems and technologies. Both of them as well as turbolasers are gravitational electromagnetic phased plasma and hardlight based weapon systems not lasers like we would understand the term means in our universe, The phased part is to get through energy shielding and the hardlight part is for armor penetration capabilities like phased plasma would not have enough of. Plus rebels use polt devices though much of the show because it was mad for kids.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

@Idazmi Rebel was never intended to be the ultimate 100 percent pure holy canon of this 4.6 billion-year-old earth you make it out to be. It has multiple flaws of its own like those shitty star destroyer models which make zero sense and have no basis for them in cannon at all. The Clone was also future multiple plot devices though its history as well and disintegrations atomizations and vaporisation in that show are extremely rare because it was made for kids and not fully grown adults or teenagers but kids under the age of 12

 

[ByAsura]

I agree Palpatine was manipulating Ren the whole time from some evidence I found on Starwars.com. That being said, they did genuinely want Kylo for his potential, not his raw power.

Kylo's the nephew of the guy who surpassed Vader and fought him at Endor. He definitely has some idea of his power. Ren is only stronger if you go by the films. Even Rebels provides a few of Vader's feats that place him above Kylo.

Literally before that scene TIE Fighters were knocking down castle towers. Also, that quote of Red Two vaporizing a TIE Fighter actually happened in A New Hope, proving that this is relatively consistent. Rebels, on the other hand, isn't very consistent with power and destruction, as I showed in the very same clip you provided. Again, R2 survived a glancing blow.

Your quote doesn't even slightly address my argument: Yoda was absorbing all of Palpatine's lightning, so that scene is not indicative of his power. These are also just the films your using. Against a freighter (something that can't defend itself), Palpatine's lightning proved highly effective even while he was using very little of his true strength.

• His Master raised his hands, forming one into a claw emitting jagged bolts of Force lightning that connected him for a moment to the ship. Vader imagined the interior of the craft lit up with the bolts of his Master’s power, the pilots screaming and writhing in pain as the dark side seared their flesh.

Also, it's confirmed that the weakened Palpatine on Exegol is superior to Snoke, who completely outclassed both Ren and Rey.

• The former Ben Solo ignited Luke Skywalker’s lightsaber, cleaving his master in two and ending Snoke’s life. Kylo thought he had destroyed a key part of the past that tormented him, but would soon discover Snoke had been created and controlled by a more powerful master of the dark side, as part of a sinister scheme set in motion decades earlier.

Their powers are only stated to amplify when they fight side-by-side, it's never stated to grow when they were fighting against each other, which they were doing over the transport.

I said force abilities like stasis, speed and jumping weren't uncommon (which they aren't), just not used often in the OG and Prequel Trilogies. Can you be more clear as to what exact ability and part of that statement you were referring to? I know that you didn't say it, but you were heavily implying that I claimed Force Lightning was common.

 

[Idazmi]

I agree Palpatine was manipulating Ren the whole time from some evidence I found on Starwars.com. That being said, they did genuinely want Kylo for his potential, not his raw power.

Kylo's the nephew of the guy who surpassed Vader and fought him at Endor. He definitely has some idea of his power. Ren is only stronger if you go by the films. Even Rebels provides a few of Vader's feats that place him above Kylo.

So you admit there's a discrepancy in power between the films and the other media.

By the way, Kylo's the guy who KO'ed the guy who surpassed Vader and fought him at Endor with a single move, yet still fears he's less powerful than Vader, who you admit is less powerful than Kylo going by the films. Wouldn't you know it: the Sequel Trilogy films, are films. Not novels.

Literally before that scene TIE Fighters were knocking down castle towers. Also, that quote of Red Two vaporizing a TIE Fighter actually happened in A New Hope, proving that this is relatively consistent. Rebels, on the other hand, isn't very consistent with power and destruction, as I showed in the very same clip you provided. Again, R2 survived a glancing blow.

1. Knocking down stone towers is not a vaporization feat.
2. Congrats: you have an example of a TIE-Fighter being "vaporized" - by it's exploding fuel cells, not the raw power of the blaster impact. You can even see the secondary explosion. Additionally, that scene that could easily be interpreted as limited available special effects, as the X-Wings and Y-Wings in the same film always break into fragments - the TIE Fighters simply didn't have break-away models made.

In any case, now you need to explain why that one scene invalidates the entirety of the Sequel Trilogy dogfights that show plenty of TIE fighters breaking up upon being shot, instead of vaporizing.

Your quote doesn't even slightly address my argument: Yoda was absorbing all of Palpatine's lightning, so that scene is not indicative of his power. These are also just the films your using. Against a freighter (something that can't defend itself), Palpatine's lightning proved highly effective even while he was using very little of his true strength.

• His Master raised his hands, forming one into a claw emitting jagged bolts of Force lightning that connected him for a moment to the ship. Vader imagined the interior of the craft lit up with the bolts of his Master’s power, the pilots screaming and writhing in pain as the dark side seared their flesh.

Also, it's confirmed that the weakened Palpatine on Exegol is superior to Snoke, who completely outclassed both Ren and Rey.

• The former Ben Solo ignited Luke Skywalker’s lightsaber, cleaving his master in two and ending Snoke’s life. Kylo thought he had destroyed a key part of the past that tormented him, but would soon discover Snoke had been created and controlled by a more powerful master of the dark side, as part of a sinister scheme set in motion decades earlier.

I already said we've just proven that there's a massive difference between the power demonstrated in the films and the power stated in the books. The difference between them is literally measurable in orders of magnitude.

Their powers are only stated to amplify when they fight side-by-side, it's never stated to grow when they were fighting against each other, which they were doing over the transport.

Yet, their power is shown steadily increasing in that very scene, to the point that Rey blows up the transport by accident. And your reference doesn't say the Dyad only amps them when they specifically work together, only that they were working together in the throne room. As evidence, consider that they were fighting against each other when Kylo was on Kijimi and Rey was on Kylo's Star Destroyer...




...yet their Dyad allowed them to fight across that distance as if they were right next to each other. That would be impossible if the Dyad required active cooperation to exist.

I said force abilities like stasis, speed and jumping weren't uncommon (which they aren't), just not used often in the OG and Prequel Trilogies. Can you be more clear as to what exact ability and part of that statement you were referring to? I know that you didn't say it, but you were heavily implying that I claimed Force Lightning was common.

No, I wasn't saying that you said Force Lightning was common: that would be silly. Nor did I say that Force Speed and Force Jump are rare abilities. The mere suggestion that I would think either of these things is mildly insulting.

Again - because I said this before - I said it is rare (not unheard of) for Jedi to use Force Speed while under fire. Then Argosax Despair brought up Force Stasis - an ability which certainly seems uncommon - and you stated flatly that it's not an uncommon ability, despite providing no evidence that the ability is or was in common use. It's uncommon until it is common.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> So you admit there's a discrepancy in power between the films and the other media.

No one argued otherwise, but we dont suddenly ignore Canon Material because the films are more conservative with their displays of power.

 

[ByAsura]

There is one, but that's not why I argued that. I didn't even bring it up in this section.

I literally gave you quotes showing you that he just collapsed the roof. I guess actual evidence isn't good enough for your head canon.

1. It's a feat that completely eclipses those Rebel feats you showed to ludicrous degrees. While the First Order TIEs are powerful, they have been combatted by Galactic Civil War era vehicles.
2. Notice how the secondary explosion comes directly after Wedge shoots the TIE. As I said before, a novel also confirms he vaporized it with that blast.

There's plenty of cases for both. I don't know how your handful of feats set some kind of standard, especially since it's leagues harder to animate this stuff and confirmed to be partially plot-based (credit to Shadow). On this point I'm just going to say that it's inconsistent and there is no standard.

The novels are as canon as the films. All feats apply.

She blew it up due to the rage she felt (something I did provide a quote for earlier and that's supported by Starwars.com). It was an accident, but there's no mention of a power increase. If they were, then why didn't Kylo perform a similarly powerful move?

The Dyad links them across space and time. It's not something they're willingly doing or related to power.

That's not really what I meant about your thoughts on Force Speed and Jump, but whatever.

You haven't proven this. Anakin, Obi-Wan, Maul and Qui-Gon have all done this in the midst of combat. It's probably just plot convenience, not vulnerability or anything like that.

Because even Padawans like Kanan and Ezra show the ability to use Force Stasis to some extent (something I did give evidence for), though not to Cal's level. It's not uncommon.

This time, I am finally leaving. Most of this stuff has nothing to do with the thread itself and arguing with you is getting really dull (no offense, it's not you, just arguing in general).

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

@Idazmi no you did not and they are not a massive gap either. @ Shadowbokunhero is right the rebel and the animated media is a lot more conservative than the books because in the books they have more time more of the universe and more space to cover this kind of stuff. Plus it is easier to say something got disintegrated atomized and vaporized within depending on the money to make an exploitive or feat on that level of destructive potential every single time. It really should not be his hard to tell you otherwise but it is are you trying to derail this thread because that what I think is going on right now. Because you do not seem to understand that facts that people other than you are trying to put in your face and ignoring them when thier is more than mountains of device facts and objective reality on thier side and not yours.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Even when the head cannon states outright Vaporization Discintergation And Atomization feats he just ignores them for his head cannon even though the feats By mentioned out eclipse those rebels feats a show made on a low budget can not make a proper scale star destroyer and shows turbolasers at street level multiple times we have artillery much more powerful than that and we lack energy shielding clocking devices faster than light tractor beams and more. Plus kid's shows are a lot more conservative than the main movies which are made for teenagers are live-action have a much higher budget and are the main cannon with thier secondary source material for the franchise, not the kid's animated tv shows and movies. The witch should not be considered the mainline of cannon. That would be the movies and secondary source material surrounding them not the other way around. That would never make sense anyway as the main and thier secondary source material came first. I think is using his own personal headcanon witch does not make sense, to begin with. To derail this thread in its tracks wheels and rails. to prevent himself from being wrong again. When you say no prove to all of us that is not what you are doing g consistently and preparing multiple times though this discussion thread Well beyond a reasonable doubt. prove it really hard.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

What about animals in star wars attack potency vers durability it seems the krayt dragon needs to be at least multi city block plus level. Likely far higher