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Yeah, I'm not so sure if Meetra, Visas and especially Canderous scale to Nihilus in his full use of Force Drain, as he was getting weaker when fighting them.
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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi
- Thread starter Shadowbokunohero
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Epyriel
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They definitely don’t. Their victory over Nihilus was extremely circumstantial and they had to weaken him in multiple ways before they could even scratch him:
-Darth Nihilus grows weaker the longer he goes in between draining. In order to weaken him, Kreia tricked him into coming to Telos IV to drain the Jedi Academy there, except there was only a single Force sensitive on the planet for him to feed on, leaving him starving. Despite this he is still strong enough to one-shot the Exile and her party.
-Next he attempts to drain Meetra Surik, except she is also a Wound in the Force and essentially the opposite of him, leading to the attempt backfiring horribly and leaving him more weakened than ever.
-Visas Marr had a prior connection between Darth Nihilus and the power bound in the Ravager which she exploited to temporarily block him from the Force.
Only under these extreme circumstances were they able to stand a chance to defeat him. So yeah, they definitely don’t scale anywhere near his AP at his strongest.
In my opinion there is only really about 6 mortal characters that reach Multi-Continental without any outside amps:
-Darth Sidious (through his Force Storms)
-Darth Vitiate (through his planetary drains)
-Darth Nihilus (through his Force Wound planetary drains)
-Luke Skywalker (through presumably surpassing Darth Sidious at least by the end of Crucible, in which he unlocks a boost in power from the Monolith that should work similarly in unlocking his potential as had the Force Harmony amp that allowed him to defeat Sidious)
-Marka Ragnos (who was stated to be the strongest of the ancient Sith who Kreia implied would he stronger than Nihilus, as he could only match some of the ancient Sith Lords)
-Exar Kun (for being stated the strongest Sith Lord in history up to his time, which would put him over Marka Ragnos)
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I remember he has to face off against Abeloth after the whole fiasco with Darth Sidious and his Sister helping him out as I remember a few things.
Epyriel
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Yep although he always needed help in fighting her. In their first fight he literally needed an army of over a thousand Sith to help weaken her, and their final vicotry is only achieved when Beyond Shadows in which she is vulnerable (as seen with how Luke and Darish Vol can mess her up with Mnemotherapy techniques to exploit her connection to her avatars) but still needed the help of a bunch of allies on multiple planets fighting her at once.
Although the Abeloth they fight in FOTJ is an incredibly starved and weakened version compared to her full might pre-imprisonment (which is why I have a serious problem with the current VSBW rating of Multi-Solar System level for the mortals who fought Abeloth despite that rating coming from scaling her prime 100,000 years ago). Realistically she is probably only around Multi-Continental herself during FOTJ.
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Abeloth Respect Thread
Abeloth is a very powerful character from the Fate of the Jedi series. I wanted to compile her feats to more or less give an impression of how powerfu
comicvine.gamespot.com
Here are the following quotes here.
“
The first thread was a lost tribe of Sith from the forgotten world of Kesh. They were building a powerful war fleet, one made more powerful by the dark strength of every warrior serving their armada. Yet there was an even greater opponent - the mysterious entity known as Abeloth.”
“
Abeloth was no castaway, no mere woman marooned here for thirty years. She was much more - a manifestation of an ancient power so dark and hideous it was beyond human comprehension.”
Nothing was stated she was extremely weakened from her own imprisonment caused by the Father and his two children.
“
You're working with Abeloth.
I am programmed to obey a strong will. The girl is strong, you are stronger, Sword of the Jedi, but neither of you can break the hold she has on me. She is older and more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
Source: Fate of the Jedi: Allies
Jaina claims that Abeloth has power like a nova has light:
Tahiri senses Abeloth's Force presence, regarding it as powerful:
Btw, all these quotes came from this thread.
Abeloth Respect Thread
Abeloth is a very powerful character from the Fate of the Jedi series. I wanted to compile her feats to more or less give an impression of how powerfu
comicvine.gamespot.com
It was like hitting a wall of solid Force energy. One moment, he was hurling himself forward, reaching out to coordinate with Ben. The next, he was standing motionless, head spinning and ears ringing, watching Abeloth stumbling out the front door of the hall.
Source: Fate of the Jedi: Vortex
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That's true, and we're actually planning on changing that.
Literally the entire reason why she was gathering avatars was to regain her full strength.
In the final fate of the Jedi book, she was heavily weakened due to having very few avatars, yet she still far surpassed Ben.
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There is nothing showing she was extremely weakened from her thousands of years imprisonment I think.
Can we get some quotes that will suggest she was extremely weakened after being freed from her imprisonment
Can we get some quotes that will suggest she was extremely weakened after being freed from her imprisonment
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Hmmm, this is reasonable I suppose as it still take the combined might of Luke Skywalker and others just to destroy her.
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Didn't Kreia also said that Revan was also stronger than him + Stroger than Exar?
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Here. She's still regaining large amounts of power throughout the stories due to avatars.
- “And if there can be three parts, why not four?” asked Nek. “Why not five, or a hundred, scattered across the entire galaxy?” “Because all of Abeloth’s bodies are part of one Force entity, yes?” Barratk’l asked in her gravelly voice. “She has grown much in power since we discovered her, but each time we kill a part, she is weakened. So there are limits. As she grows stronger, those limits rise. And now she has three bodies.”
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Yeah, but we don’t know how much she was weakened from thousands of years of imprisonment as all other quotes still says she was incredibly powerful despite the fact she was imprisoned.
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That's no reason to scale all these characters to 4-A.
Abeloth was literally a dozen times more powerful than Luke when they first fought, and she proceeded to grow much more powerful before more of her avatars were destroyed, which makes her far stronger than any non-cosmic character in the series after she was released. This alone is enough to be called all-powerful.
Abeloth was literally a dozen times more powerful than Luke when they first fought, and she proceeded to grow much more powerful before more of her avatars were destroyed, which makes her far stronger than any non-cosmic character in the series after she was released. This alone is enough to be called all-powerful.
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I not suggesting they all scale to 4A, but when we have multiple quotes that show Abeloth was consider more powerful than the combined might of the New Republic Jedi and Sith, then it speaks volumes on how absurd she was against the galaxy at large.
Epyriel
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Abeloth explains to Sarasu Taalon (after he had become a being like her) that the reasoning he was getting weaker so quickly (from being a threat to Luke all the way down to being on par with Ben) was that he needed to feed on life energies to sustain himself:
Abeloth herself has been unable to feed for the better part of a hundred thousand years (apart from brief breakout periods):
Thus the first thing she does when she gets free is to try to consume the life energies of Dylon Stad:
And when she gets damaged in her first fight with Luke and the Lost Tribe of the Sith army, she returns to Dyon to try and feed again:
It is also noted that the dozens of black holes she has been trapped by for a hundred thousand years weakens Force users:
To give a bit of context for how weak she has grown in all that time, the Killiks recount that in one of her previous breakouts she had grown strong enough to possess the biospheres of at least three entire planets as avatars:
By comparison, at the end of FOTJ she can only manage 3 human sized avatars.
Epyriel
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She is definitely still immensely powerful in FOTJ compared to everyone else, but she is still a shadow of her former self compared to her prime.
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Yeah, this is definitely fair and reasonable I suppose.
Still, it make her feats even more absurd during the events in these novels.
Epyriel
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Do you mind considering a suggestion for this? In my opinion the Mortis Gods and Abeloth should all be Multi-Solar System level with Low Complex Multiversal Environmental Destruction.
In terms of raw telekinesis, the Twins opt to build Centerpoint Station to construct the Maw and hold Abeloth, implying its power is enough to contain her (except when the Force swings towards Chaos after millennia long wars which empowers her enough to escape) and that actually dragging all those black holes around would be beyond, or at least inconvenient, for their own powers to handle.
However both the Mortis Gods and Abeloth have a series of quotes which implies they can affect the balance of the Force itself throughout the universe (with the Force reaching even Hyperspace which is a higher dimension). This seems to me to be a case of Environmental Destruction.
Epyriel
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Don’t think that is ever stated. In fact it is stated that she thinks Darth Revan (at least prior to KOTOR from her knowledge) is inferior to the Exile:
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Their lifespans are limited and they have to spend their time maintaining The Force, so it's probably less out of inconvenience and more 'I don't want to waste eternity guarding Abeloth, I've got bigger fish to fry.'
Also, the implication from The Clone Wars, Star Wars.com and similar supplementary sources is that they don't really use their powers in material space at all.
Also, the implication from The Clone Wars, Star Wars.com and similar supplementary sources is that they don't really use their powers in material space at all.
- THE FATHER: There are some who would like to exploit our power. The sith are but one. Too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it. When news reached me that the chosen one had been found, I needed to see for myself.
- THE FATHER: It's true, what they say. You are the Chosen One. Join me. Together we can change the balance of the universe, my friend.
- THE FATHER: Aligned, you and I can restore balance wherever we go. Peace to the universe.
- THE FATHER: As the balance in this world crumbles, so shall war escalate in your galaxy. As my son has descended into the dark side, so have the Sith gained strength.
- QUI-GON (Force-Spirit): Unlike any other. A conduit through which the entire Force of the universe flows.
Epyriel
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I was more referring to the fact they used Centerpoint to assemble the Maw at all. I can understand building it to automate Abeloth’s prison maintenance, but they seemed to need it to drag the black holes to build her prison in the first place.
I mean, isn’t this just a matter of The Father keeping them there so they don’t use their powers in material space? A matter of restrain rather than capability? After all, the Daughter and Son repeatedly come back out to throw Abeloth back in her cage.
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Black holes are literally wounds in The Force to Force-users. They hate them, so it makes sense that they can't maintain or manipulate them in anything but a somewhat limited capacity; there's no Force there to manipulate.
Edit: I say somewhat limited because Kyp Duron affected a Dovin basal after it created a micro-black hole. 'Somewhat limited' is generous.
That doesn't make any sense. They'd always have to be detracting from their duties to The Force if they did that, rather than occasionally entering material space when Abeloth has already affected the balance of the galaxy by attacking civilizations.
Edit: I say somewhat limited because Kyp Duron affected a Dovin basal after it created a micro-black hole. 'Somewhat limited' is generous.
That doesn't make any sense. They'd always have to be detracting from their duties to The Force if they did that, rather than occasionally entering material space when Abeloth has already affected the balance of the galaxy by attacking civilizations.
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“
The Father had to withdraw from the rest of the Galaxy with his family to avoid ruining it with their Force powers.
Hmmm, it is from this respect thread :
comicvine.gamespot.com
I
The Father had to withdraw from the rest of the Galaxy with his family to avoid ruining it with their Force powers.
As a One, the Father could wield the Force in ways mortals couldn't.Hmmm, it is from this respect thread :
The Father of Mortis Respect Thread
Force AbilitiesForce Strength The Father was the most powerful Force user in Star Wars.Leeland Chee As a Celestial, the Father had power beyond the u
comicvine.gamespot.com
I
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Epyriel
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Yet even if they couldn’t pull them, Abeloth herself was limited by the gravitational pull alone, and could only escape when amped by a change in the balance of the Force. Seeing as the Mortis Gods are relative to Abeloth in power, they would all still be capped around Multi-Solar System level from this alone (at least in raw AP).
As Hammer has shared above, the prison was powerul enough to “hold beings of the architects’ power”.
I’m not sure I understand your point here. Them “occasionally entering material space when Abeloth has already affected the balance of creation” was exactly what I was getting at. It just shows they can use their powers in material space, they simpy choose to remain in Mortis out of duty.
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This is further reinforced by this quote here from a different source.
“
The Father could manipulate the Force like no other aside from her family, and was powerful enough to tear the fabric of the Universe with his Force powers.
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You yourself literally showed that the black hole weakened Abeloth. Why do you think she couldn't get out of its pull?
The Son and The Daughter scale to the entire Force on a universal scale. The fact that a galactic shift in the balance of power so heavily strengthens her shows three things:
A) She was massively weakened.
B) Even a small amount of her full power can break out of a black hole.
C) The power she used to break out is already the level of power she uses throughout Fate of the Jedi, which we already know is far from her peak even when accounting for her avatars.
Even galactic nuclei, which are among the very largest black holes in the entire universe, are 4-A in terms of sheer mass. So, by your own logic, not being able to escape a black hole would also be an anti-feat for 4-A, not just 3-A to Low 1-C.
As I said, Abeloth's actions already influence The Force of the galaxy, as we see in Fate of the Jedi. When they capture her, it actually re-balances The Force.
Like Hammer said, using their powers for extended periods (which is what you're suggesting they do) will rip space-time.
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Yeah, as it happened after the Father, The Son, and I think the Daughter death’s, hence why there was nothing else to contain Abeloth outside of the cosmic prison made for her specifically
Epyriel
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Only over time. The children affected by the black holes lived on the station for an extended period of time, by comparison the Sith and Jedi that landed on her planet were not noticeably affected for the time they were there.
What was keeping Abeloth imprisoned was the combination of Centerpoint Station (a confirmed Multi-Solar System level weapon) + the gravitational pull of several dozen black holes of unknown distance (which does not necessarily scale to any certain level depending on the distance) + Sinkhole Station (unknown power)
Abeloth escaped as a consequence of Centerpoint Station being taken out of the equation, and then Abeloth overpowering Sinkhole Station which allowed the black holes to drift out of alignment, giving her an opening.
We know Centerpoint Station is the most powerful effect of the three, yet it is only a Multi-Solar System level tractor beam.
Thus we know Abeloth should be below Multi-Solar System level at her prime, and below that during FOTJ (as she couldn’t breakout with Centerpoint Station online).
I fully accept that Abeloth affects the entirety of the Force, I am merely arguing that this should be considered Environmental Destruction to contrast her raw telekinesis which should only be around Multi-Solar System level at her prime, and far below that in FOTJ.
Thus that in her prime her (and the Mortis Gods’) Tier should read: 4-A; Low 1-C with Environmental Destruction
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Where is that shown? Because she's been tossed into the black hole many times over the millennia. Wouldn't she have possessed/regained significantly more power in normal space at different points if it was this gradual? Because most of her re-appearances seem to happen closer to modern times.
Centerpoint's greatest feat is making The Maw, which is like 4-B if I'm not mistaken. Where's 4-A coming from?
Centerpoint Station's continued presence worked because she was already trapped within The Maw after The Ones overpowered her and Centerpoint made The Maw. Its continued function is to continue to keep her contained within the prison and the prison operating, not to overpower her at full power.
Sinkhole is part of the equation alongside Centerpoint, and we don't know what it does. This is already a fairly good reason to dismiss that a black hole or Centerpoint alone can stop her.
That doesn't account for all the times in the past that Abeloth escaped, just Fate of the Jedi.
Yeah, I know what you're arguing. There's no confusion there.
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Epyriel
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By the fact that the only proof we have of the weakening effect of black hole was for refugees staying there for an extended period, while those that stayed there for short times (like the strike force that fought the Callista Avatar) never showed or mentioned any signs of weakening whatsoever (which wouldn’t make much sense if it was an immediate effect that could instantly weaken a being with universal telekinesis all the way down to Multi-Solar System level).
And yes, she should regain power every time she breakouts and gets sent back in the prison. So she would only be suffering from a few thousand years of weakening from the black holes, rather than 100,000 years straight.
Yet why wouldn’t she immediately break out again if her telekinesis was stronger than it’s pull to contain her?
The past breakouts are explained by the Killiks as times of strife when the “current” (the balance of the Force) changes to favour and empower Abeloth enough to escape:
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The refugees were in The Maw Installation, which is a series of asteroids inside of a safe zone from The Maw's black holes where literally astronomical amounts of matter exist.
The fact that even its least powerful spots weakens Force users speaks volumes about the combined effect of all the factors of Abeloth's prison, including being at the very heart of The Maw.
Which is exactly my point. It's not a gradual process. She goes from astronomically above her Fate of the Jedi levels to 0 in, at most, a matter of centuries.
That still supports my point, though. She can break out of Centerpoint just with galactic scale events.
It's not nearly enough to contain her full power.
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Epyriel
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A gravitationally stable safe zone, which is the same that can be said for Abeloth’s planet. You have to be a certain distance from the black holes or else the object would spiral in or slingshot out, but this is true for both Abeloth’s planet and the station.
But even a matter of centuries makes little sense if the prison requires her to just voluntarily sit around for a few centuries until she is weakened enough for the prison to do its job.
Except that is specifically a massively amped state (after literally thousands of years of war) which we don’t know how to compare to her base power at her prime.
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Centerpoint and Sinkhole are in stable zones and orbits. Abeloth's planet is close to but outside Centerpoint's stable zone, meaning she's still in proximity to the black holes.
- Stable Zone One wasn't actually very stable. Even the slightest perturbation would start a mass on a long, slow fall into one of the adjacent gravity wells. Therefore, anything permanently located inside the zone could only be at the precise center, because that was the only place where the forces were in absolute equilibrium.
I said it happened within centuries, which can mean literally anything less than that timeframe. It happening over the course of centuries is never actually stated, and it wasn't part of that point, which is that this shit happens way faster than you're claiming.
Even discounting the fact that the state in Fate of the Jedi is still a massively amped state and they say these power levels can be achieved with smaller timeframes, these wars were also galactic or sub-galactic scale affair. What you've said really changes nothing about my point because she still wouldn't have received so massive an amp from such wars if she was operating on a fully-powered universal scale.
We know that she got stomped by The Son and Daughter, whom she could easily overpower at her height.
Also, what do you mean by 'we don't know'? You're making the claim that Abeloth musn't have been heavily weakened quickly and scales at least somewhat to her prison conditions, so the onus is on you to prove that Abeloth is relatively close to her prime state for this to work.
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Epyriel
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The point is that any significant amount of time doesn’t make any sense, let alone centuries, because then it wouldn’t really be logical to call her prison one that could hold a being of the architects’ power. Since you would basically have to weaken “a being of the architects’ power” to a being nowhere near the architects power before it can do its job. Especially since there is no mention of the Twins holding her in there by Force until she is weak enough to be contained.
And yet even when she escapes she only flees the prison rather than wrecking both stations, which still implies a certain level of relativity to their power.
It should also be noted that Centerpoint Station gets called “the most powerful force in the galaxy, second only to the power of the Force itself” which also places the Mortis Gods and Abeloth below it:
Except there is no solid proof she even fought the Son and Daughter at her height, let alone “easily” overpowered them. The only evidence for this that people throw around is a mural in which the Son is glowering at her and the Daughter is cowering, which could just as easily be their reactions from her first appearance as an eldritch monstrosity.
In fact she get stated to be individually weaker than either of them:
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There is no point here because you haven't proven that it's a slow process. As I said earlier (I guess you missed that edit), you're the one making the claims, so the onus is on you to prove that it's a slow process, which you've failed to do.
Which actually substantiates it being quick. How could they contain her in a prison she was already powerful enough to escape from if the weakening process wasn't quick?
Plus, it's entirely possible that The Son and Daughter would've already destroyed her avatars before fighting Abeloth and dumping her back into The Maw, which would've heavily weakened her again.
In her massively weakened state, yes.
The Ones literally are the power of The Force (both living and cosmic). Not only that, but they can't even be considered 'in the galaxy' even if they're within material space and not Mortis because they operate on a scale far beyond the galaxy.
While I disagree with your interpretation, I can't prove it wrong, so I'll concede.
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????? Abeloth managed to persist for thousands of years going by this quote which I assume came from the later novels of Legends.
In addition to that, according to a archived old Star War page, the Centerpoint existed for 100,000 years at the bare minimum.
Galactic Architecture 101 and the History of Centerpoint Station | StarWars.com
Learn the story behind one of the biggest, most mysterious constructs in the Star Wars universe.
web.archive.org
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Apparently the Celestials/Ones were the ones who hired the Kiliks to ensure she was imprisoned as long as possible as the Maw was built using Centerpoint Station which was designed to pull in black holes, and other celestial bodies.
