Spaces in Times Dragon Ball revision

[omegabronic]

And Piccolo was able to communicate with Goten and Trunks through telepathy, a Ki ability, so what is your point?

is it really a Ki ability?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

No.

 

[Ednaxel2]

And Piccolo was able to communicate with Goten and Trunks through telepathy, a Ki ability, so what is your point?

Actually in the special attack dictionary it's categorized as an "ability" planely not ki manipulation like the kamehameha etc.

I do agree with the 2-C scaling, just wanted to say..

 

[omegabronic]

I disagree with OP fra. I find it strange how teleportation is the only way to get the kai realm, yet its being argued these realms are just floating about in the physical universe.

not in the physical universe, outside of it, i am not saying that it is inside the universe

besides one of the points in the OP is how Teleportation is NOT the only way to go to the Kaioshin realm, so.......using it as a point without mentioning that point is even more strange

I can't help to think this is just arguments in bad faith.

no accusations please

We know teleportation techniques like kai kai and I.T are able to travel to different dimensions like zeno's palace, which btw, is another dimension, based on this scan right here. So saying teleportation is the only way to travel to these realms does in fact mean these are spatialtemporally separated dimensions.

1 Whis' Warp is factually not Teleporation, so the scan saying that only Teleporation can get you there is factually wrong

2 Another Dimension =/= Another space time, you were told that already in the past thread

3 Teleporation doesn't work to go to other space times, like the ROSAT, so......that alone isn't really proof of such separation

Whis was also able to travel to zeno's dimension, it would just take longer. So we know for a fact that whis travels to other dimensions with his warp ability.

which doesn't really for the point now, does it? all that matters is that it isn't teleporation,

Goku even said it would be IMPOSSIBLE for kid buu to get to the kaioshin realm without teleportation

yeah, because he had no way to actually reach that far without, from what he knew so far, the only way he fond to go there, which isn't really solid proof when Whis showed that you can in fact go to the other realms without Teleportation at all, so Goku is just proven wrong in this case

, these dimensional physical walls that you keep mentioning do not exist, and its been shown that "barriers" clearly mean the fabric of space and time that separates them, that's why toriyama calls them separated worlds completely.

being a separated world =/= being another dimension

and yes, it they do exist, i explained how the one separating the Afterlife and the one separating the Kaioshin realm are pretty much physical walls

Do you really think the ONLY thing separating the worlds are just big brick walls or something? There is so much wrong with this but I'll humor you.

brick certainly not, that would be a weird material to use

What are these walls made of? Surely they can't be made of anything harder than the hardest material in the universe kachi kachin, so there's definitely people who could break it.

Can anyone in the Universe break it? Up until the ToP i don't think we saw any char who could break Kachi kachin, at least not confirmed, as for what they are made of? the Kaishin realm one is Crystal, that much is said, which crystal? dunno, the Afterlife one? no idea, never specified

and of course there is people in the Universe who can break it, Beerus and Goku themselves almost destroyed them alongside the universe at one point, altho that is only in Super after God level of power is achieved, so that really isn't much saying for the common folk of the Universe

Where are these physical barriers and why have they never been seen at all?

around he realms they separate from the rest, as to why they were never seen? well man, we never really saw the Afterlife and the Kaioshin realm from the outside in an accurate way to actually see them, altho if you want to use the Macrocosm map, which people for some reason think is acurate to what the universes looks like, they are seen, domes and a weird wall around and such, so if you really want to count that, meh, not like it matters much

Has nobody ever in history seen them?

Why is teleportation the only way to get to the kaio realm and afterlife? Besides dying of course, why is this interdimensional technique that is specifically made to have the capabilities of traveling to other dimensions the ONLY WAY?

simple......it isn't, Whis does all the time without using teleporation at all, sides it clearly can't go to other dimensions, Goku can't use it to go to the ROSAT for example

Why can't this physical wall just be broken by strong characters?

it can be, Beerus and Goku almost did in BoG

Why are the barriers that are confirmed to exist just the fabric of spacetime? Like the barrier between the rosat and the living world? Or the dimension broly and gogeta broke into?

i mean......physical barriers existing doesn't stop other type of non physical barriers to exist, i hope you know that

Why do toriyama and numerous statements from kakarot literally confirm that they do NOT sit in the same body of space?

Toryama word is less front sit then what the actual source material says even then i request a scan of such statement and Kakarot was decided here as only being usable when not contradicting the source material, so if it has statements contradicting the clear physical 3D separation of the realms, then too bad for it

Chozenshuu 4 and kakarot literally tells us the ROSAT is an area of subspace, that the ROSAT is between dimensions sitting in the subspace. What does between dimensions mean?

that it is in between dimensions.........which is what the realms like Afterlife and Kaioshin realm being argued to not be

And what does it mean that you can break the dimensional barrier of the rosat and get back to the living realm?

that the ROSAT is another dimension outside the Universe and that you need to break the dimensional barriers of the ROSAT to go to the Universe

It means that the rosat is in fact between the dimensions for being in subspace which is what holds the dimensions.

the ROSAT is a dimension however, Subspace is what is between dimensions, as such, ROSAT is inside of Subspace, which exists between it and the other dimensions

They literally can't share the same spacetime.

which i never said the ROSAT does with the rest

Also, for the point of, "goku can sense ki in the afterlife and the kaioshin realm but can't sense ki in the ROSAT". Why exactly does this matter?

because if it was between the realms of the macrocosm, it would be closer, thus easier to feel than the other realms who supposedly would be further apart

We know the rosat has an explicit different flow of time which could just mean its harder for goku to ki sense in there

why would a different flow of time make him feeling ki there more difficult? that smells like a headcanon from you now

, we do know that the afterlife and kaioshin realm have separate time axis, but they flow on the same rate of time.

we don't really know that no, at least, no scan presented says as such

This doesn't suddenly mean, "oh yeah all the realms are just in one physical universe that you can travel to physically". That doesn't make any sense, different dimensions could have different properties.

of course they "could" but the limitations you say for the likes of IT and Ki sense is not based around any statements in universe, just you trying to come up with something to explain why one space time can't be traveled to with IT while the other supposed space time can, when the supposed one is not even said to be another space time to begin with

We really just don't know, piccolo can communicate between dimensions with goten and trunks, and surely that requires picking up some type of detection or ki signature.

says who? he is using telepathy, not Ki

There's many things it could be, but it doesn't debunk separated realms in the macrocosm.

no, but the statements saying that there is a physical connection does, also you saying things that "could" be without showing evidence for said things, which you could only justify if you assume that the realms that are not stated to be space times are for some reason is......odd to say the least

 

[TiltedFN]

This ki sensing thing literally doesn't matter, we know jiren was able to sense hit when he was in another dimension entirely, and jiren can sense ki obviously. Goku not being able to sense ki in the rosat is not a defeater to the argument. We're going off of the presumption that all dimensions have the same nature, there are characters that can sense ki across dimensions, like jiren for example, even goku can, across the afterlife, and the kaioshin realm. But it doesn't mean he can for the rosat, especially sense its said to be shut off entirely. What this means is that it also hinders their capability to sense ki from other dimensions, which goku actually clarifies in that same scan, which I repeat, is NOT a defeater for the other realms being separated spacetimes, its not even close actually. Unless we're going to argue that hits dimension is not a separate spacetime now? Which is obviously baseless, so this argument has absolutely nothing to stand on. As for the old kai statement, when he says they are fighting in a different dimension, why does this matter? Goku obviously thought they were fighting in the living realm, so old kai saying they are fighting in another dimension is just him describing where they are, and since goku can sense ki from the kaioshin realm, naturally he would be confused as to why he cannot, and it clicks for him because goku KNOWS that ki can't be sensed from the rosat. Also old kai then clarifies that this dimension is the dimension of time (the rosat) which is why energy cant be sensed there. A nothing argument yet again. As for omegas argument, maybe I should have worded it better so you can understand it, but the whole point is that teleportation can travel interdimensional distances, and yes whis cannot teleport, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter, because whis has shown interdimensional travel, just like instant transmission, but slower. So ultimately we arrive at the conclusion that these realms require interdimensional techniques and methods to get to them, like whis' warp, or the kais and gokus teleportation techniques. Certain dimensions have limitations, we CANNOT assume that every dimension is the same. Also for the telepathy scan, we aren't sure if it is a ki based ability or not, saying its a natural ability doesn't disprove it from using ki, but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things if it does or doesn't.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

we know jiren was able to sense hit when he was in another dimension entirely

The one character whose abilities explicitly transcend time and far surpass everybody else's.

 

[omegabronic]

This ki sensing thing literally doesn't matter, we know jiren was able to sense hit when he was in another dimension entirely, and jiren can sense ki obviously.

is it ever said that he sensed hit's ki or that he sensed hit at all? the scan you posted just says on they being confused about his attacks being detected, given the normality of Ki sense in that era, something so simply being to make Hit detected seems odd

regardless, if nothing is ever said about Jiren using Ki sense specifically to feel Hit, then this doesn't really prove much

Goku not being able to sense ki in the rosat is not a defeater to the argument. We're going off of the presumption that all dimensions have the same nature, there are characters that can sense ki across dimensions, like jiren for example, even goku can, across the afterlife, and the kaioshin realm.

Jiren you didn't posted anything that would suggest he can, the Hit one just says he detected Hit, never said that he did that with Ki sense, also you do understand that the thread is proposing that the other realms are not other dimensions right? so by the other evidence in the thread the Goku example would also be wrong

But it doesn't mean he can for the rosat, especially sense its said to be shut off entirely.

so a dimension that is supposedly between the other realms in the macrocosm, thus close to them than the said other realms, is paradoxically also cutted out completely and unable to be detected? seems weird, specially since Telepathy still works, showing that it isn't entirely shut off

What this means is that it also hinders their capability to sense ki from other dimensions, which goku actually clarifies in that same scan, which I repeat, is NOT a defeater for the other realms being separated spacetimes

despite the above, i find this good to consider for that point in specific

Unless we're going to argue that hits dimension is not a separate spacetime now? Which is obviously baseless

is there anything saying that it is? i can only remember it ever being called another space, not another space time

regardless, Jiren's example doesn't show him feeling Hit's Ki in there anyway, so your point hanging on this is def not really solid

Also old kai then clarifies that this dimension is the dimension of time (the rosat) which is why energy cant be sensed there.

he doesn't clarify that that's the reason why it can't be sensed there tho

As for omegas argument, maybe I should have worded it better so you can understand it, but the whole point is that teleportation can travel interdimensional distances

based on what?

, and yes whis cannot teleport, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter, because whis has shown interdimensional travel, just like instant transmission, but slower.

point is that it isn't Teleportation, so a statement saying "only teleporation can be used to reach there" is automatically wrong if can do that without teleportation, that is kind of self evident

So ultimately we arrive at the conclusion that these realms require interdimensional techniques and methods to get to them, like whis' warp, or the kais and gokus teleportation techniques.

not really since it is never said that things like Warp is the only method of going there, Teleportation is retconned by Whis' warp, so the statement saying that is also not valid

overall, we don't have any valid statement that say that only interdimensional techniques can make once reach the Kaioshin realm, even then the likes of the Afterlife don't have such statements at all, so

Also for the telepathy scan, we aren't sure if it is a ki based ability or not, saying its a natural ability doesn't disprove it from using ki

it not being in the Ki category in the techniques organization certainly comfirms that it isn't a Ki technique tho

 

[TiltedFN]

The one character whose abilities explicitly transcend time and far surpass everybody else's.

Explain why that matters? Jiren being able to sense hit in another dimension is ki sensing, which means hits presence in another dimension can be sensed and is not limited by the nature of the dimension. His strength transcending time statements we treat as a resistance to time related abilities, but what jiren did was blatantly detect him and know where he was going to attack from in that alternate dimension. And why the hell are you typing like that? Stop typing like a smartass, you come off as extremely arrogant.

 

[omegabronic]

Explain why that matters? Jiren being able to sense hit in another dimension is ki sensing

says who?

 

[TiltedFN]

says who?

Says who? What do you mean says who? Detecting someone in dragon ball in most cases means KI SENSING!! The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that detecting hit doesn't mean he sensed his ki, that's another baseless claim. What kind of argument is "says who", EXPLAIN IT. And wait while i reply to your other argument, you like to break everything into small lines of text so im going to respond to what matters.

 

[omegabronic]

Says who? What do you mean says who? Detecting someone in dragon ball in most cases means KI SENSING!!

......so you are saying that it is ki sensing because other character can fell each others Ki? if something so common could be used to detect hit.....then why would anyone be surprised at all that he can be detected when in another dimension? by all accounts it should be very easy to detect Hit if Ki sensing was able to do that, more on that, Ki sensing the characters say that they "felt" each other and not "detected", but that is a minor thing anyway

regardless, if nothing says that he used Ki sense, with the implication of it allowing one to feel hit with something so banal contradicting the surprise of other chars about said detection, then i say we don't really have a reason to say that he used Ki sense

The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that detecting hit doesn't mean he sensed his ki, that's another baseless claim.

no, you are the one with the positive claim "he used Ki sense" the burden of proof to prove that is on you

What kind of argument is "says who", EXPLAIN IT.

it wasn't an argument, it was a question, you explain your point, you are the one who made it in the first place

And wait while i reply to your other argument, you like to break everything into small lines of text so im going to respond to what matters.

i don't really feel like waiting, both comment have nothing to do with each other anyway

 

[TiltedFN]

is it ever said that he sensed hit's ki or that he sensed hit at all? the scan you posted just says on they being confused about his attacks being detected, given the normality of Ki sense in that era, something so simply being to make Hit detected seems odd

regardless, if nothing is ever said about Jiren using Ki sense specifically to feel Hit, then this doesn't really prove much


Jiren you didn't posted anything that would suggest he can, the Hit one just says he detected Hit, never said that he did that with Ki sense, also you do understand that the thread is proposing that the other realms are not other dimensions right? so by the other evidence in the thread the Goku example would also be wrong


so a dimension that is supposedly between the other realms in the macrocosm, thus close to them than the said other realms, is paradoxically also cutted out completely and unable to be detected? seems weird, specially since Telepathy still works, showing that it isn't entirely shut off


despite the above, i find this good to consider for that point in specific


is there anything saying that it is? i can only remember it ever being called another space, not another space time

regardless, Jiren's example doesn't show him feeling Hit's Ki in there anyway, so your point hanging on this is def not really solid


he doesn't clarify that that's the reason why it can't be sensed there tho


based on what?


point is that it isn't Teleportation, so a statement saying "only teleporation can be used to reach there" is automatically wrong if can do that without teleportation, that is kind of self evident


not really since it is never said that things like Warp is the only method of going there, Teleportation is retconned by Whis' warp, so the statement saying that is also not valid

overall, we don't have any valid statement that say that only interdimensional techniques can make once reach the Kaioshin realm, even then the likes of the Afterlife don't have such statements at all, so


it not being in the Ki category in the techniques organization certainly comfirms that it isn't a Ki technique tho

Well I already replied to you about the ki sensing bit, so Im skipping that. The rosat being, "closer" doesn't mean anything when goku EXPLICITLY EXPLAINS that the rosat is shut out from the outside world including sensing ki, so from that statement, we can denote that the rosat has special properties that doesn't allow for ki sensing. It's that simple, easy to understand. And again we really don't know how telepathy works across the dimension that doesn't allow for ki sensing, either it doesn't require ki and that's a property that is not hindered by the chamber, OR if it does use ki and piccolo communicates by picking up on their ki signatures, then the statement is wrong, and this entire argument for the other realms not being separate dimensions because of the rosat falls apart completely because its inconsistent and proven wrong, pick your poison. Or we could easily brush this off as an outlier, that's another option, its obviously something that really just doesn't matter, its a bad argument. Also we are given examples of what is actually shut out when entering that chamber, and an example we have is ki sensing, so we can only go off whats SHOWN to be shut out. And yes, hits dimension is called a "parallel world" by vados verbatim, but even without that, we clearly see goku enter that dimension by cracking the spatialtemporal boundaries of the universe and hits dimension, so that should be out of the question if its a separate spacetime or not, it clearly is. And for the whis shit, what I said still stands, the actual logical conclusion we can go to is that interdimensional abilities are required to go to the separate realms, like whis warp or IT, I'm tired of repeating myself.

 

[TiltedFN]

You can't wait a couple minutes for a reply omega? Patient much?

 

[CloverDragon03]

says who?

The assumptions needed to claim it's not ki sensing (the most prevalent form of sensing ever that almost every fighter that uses ki is able to do), but perhaps just some never-before-seen, never-before-explained means of sensing people, are just so ludicrous that this response is not one I'd consider good or productive at all.

 

[Flashlight237]

Gonna have to agree with the thread. I mean why give a very physical description of the makeup of both Other World and the Supreme Kai's world unless you have clear intentions of doing so? I mean, heck, Goku physically went from Other World to Earth on the flying nimbus and that isn't even considered interdimensional travel when that happened. It's just a cloud flying from Point A to Point B.

And before you complain, engraving is a physical art form. Statues have been built with gaps in their design before, as this bronze statue of Don Quixote can certainly attest:

 

[Damage3245]

Put me down as agree with the OP for now.

 

[TiltedFN]

Gonna have to agree with the thread. I mean why give a very physical description of the makeup of both Other World and the Supreme Kai's world unless you have clear intentions of doing so? I mean, heck, Goku physically went from Other World to Earth on the flying nimbus and that isn't even considered interdimensional travel when that happened. It's just a cloud flying from Point A to Point B.

And before you complain, engraving is a physical art form. Statues have been built with gaps in their design before, as this bronze statue of Don Quixote can certainly attest:

Goku never traveled to otherworld physically with flying nimbus

 

[Nierre]

Gonna have to agree with the thread. I mean why give a very physical description of the makeup of both Other World and the Supreme Kai's world unless you have clear intentions of doing so? I mean, heck, Goku physically went from Other World to Earth on the flying nimbus and that isn't even considered interdimensional travel when that happened. It's just a cloud flying from Point A to Point B.

And before you complain, engraving is a physical art form. Statues have been built with gaps in their design before, as this bronze statue of Don Quixote can certainly attest:

what on earth are you talking about.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

you come off as extremely arrogant.

I am arrogant.

The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that detecting hit doesn't mean he sensed his ki

Gladly.

In the original Japanese dialogue, "How can his attacks be detected and not work when he's in another space?!" is "別空間に潜んでの攻撃も察知されて通用しないなんて！", with the kanji "察知されて" (sacchi sarete) meaning "to sense; to infer; to gather; to pick up on" and is intuition-based.

Compare that with Episode 103, in which Gohan claims "I can sense [Obni], but can't find him"—in "なっ…気配が… 実体の位置がつかめない", the kanji "気配" (kehai) means "indication; sign; hint; sensation; feeling"; or with Episode 110, when Khai notes that "I sense a far higher power from [Jiren]"—in "彼からは はるか高みの力を感じます", the kanji "感じます" (kanjiru; like "Ki Sense") means "to feel; to sense; to experience"; both are perception-based.

Jiren intuited Hit's position, like Goku did against Time-Skip in the Tournament of Destroyers.
I'm not going to lie, I was 100% already completely convinced of a perception vs. intuition thing before I even went through the Japanese text; I'm so good at confirming my own biases.

Goku physically went from Other World to Earth on the flying nimbus

Actually, he never travelled between worlds; Kami teleported Goku from King Yemma's Palace to The Lookout, and then he summoned the Flying Nimbus.

 

[omegabronic]

The rosat being, "closer" doesn't mean anything when goku EXPLICITLY EXPLAINS that the rosat is shut out from the outside world including sensing ki, so from that statement, we can denote that the rosat has special properties that doesn't allow for ki sensing. It's that simple, easy to understand.

ok, i can agree with that

And yes, hits dimension is called a "parallel world" by vados verbatim

which in itself doesn't really mean much when she says that what he creates is purely a separated space, so in this case she isn't saying "parallel" world in the usual sense

, but even without that, we clearly see goku enter that dimension by cracking the spatialtemporal boundaries of the universe and hits dimension

when do we ever have any statements that this is what happened?

And for the whis shit, what I said still stands, the actual logical conclusion we can go to is that interdimensional abilities are required to go to the separate realms, like whis warp or IT, I'm tired of repeating myself.

and i say again, nothing is ever said about "interdimensioanl abilities" being a requirement, the one statement we have is about Teleportation exclussively, which is contradicted by Whis' Warp not being it, so once again i ask, what statement is there about only interdimensional tecnhiques being able to make one reach the other realms?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I am arrogant.

This whole "arrogant" persona thing's gotta stop though, it's not at all productive and only poisons things

In the original Japanese dialogue, "How can his attacks be detected and not work when he's in another space?!" is "別空間に潜んでの攻撃も察知されて通用しないなんて！", with the kanji "察知されて" (sacchi sarete) meaning "to sense; to infer; to gather; to pick up on" and is intuition-based.

The very first definition is "to sense." Also, you say the original Japanese dialogue, but the "is intuition-based" link is for Chinese, not Japanese.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

not a persona but okay.

Also, you say the original Japanese dialogue, but the "is intuition-based" link is for Chinese, not Japanese.

Whoops. Sorry.
Regardless, the word is a combination of the kanji 察 and 知; "guess, presume, surmise, judge, understand" + "know, wisdom".

Together, (roughly) "To know something in advance. To become aware of something.", or "inference", or "sense; infer", or "become conscious of; get to know or become aware of, usually accidentally; conclude from evidence; to become aware of through the senses". The point stands yet.

 

[TiltedFN]

ok, i can agree with that

Okay so can we drop the rosat argument entirely since you concede?

which in itself doesn't really mean much when she says that what he creates is purely a separated space, so in this case she isn't saying "parallel" world in the usual sense

It does lmao, does parallel world mean something different now? Look at vados statement, it CLEARLY means a separate spacetime.

when do we ever have any statements that this is what happened?

Here, goku is cracking the fabric of space

and i say again, nothing is ever said about "interdimensioanl abilities" being a requirement, the one statement we have is about Teleportation exclussively, which is contradicted by Whis' Warp not being it, so once again i ask, what statement is there about only interdimensional tecnhiques being able to make one reach the other realms?

It doesn't explicitly have to say that, using logic and watching the show, we KNOW that whis and teleportation techniques can travel to other dimensions.

 

[CloverDragon03]

not a persona but okay.

Whatever it is the point remains

Whoops. Sorry.
Regardless, the word is a combination of the kanji 察 and 知; "guess, presume, surmise, judge, understand" + "know, wisdom".

Together, (roughly) "To know something in advance. To become aware of something.", or "inference", or "sense; infer", or "become conscious of; get to know or become aware of, usually accidentally; conclude from evidence; to become aware of through the senses". The point stands yet.

My other question: How did you arrive at this for the Japanese text?

別空間に潜んでの攻撃も察知されて通用しないなんて！

Are there raws or something? Because it sounds like you used the English sub for the English dialogue

It doesn't explicitly have to say that, using logic and watching the show, we KNOW that whis and teleportation techniques can travel to other dimensions.

Doesn't Whis explicitly travel to other universes, which are spatio-temporally separated from Universe 7? Like Universe 10 for instance. Or is that somehow not relevant?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Are there raws or something? Because it sounds like you used the English sub for the English dialogue

Source rips of the Japanese subtitle files from various streaming platforms, including Prime Video—my preferred source, because they include the entire dialogue—can be found here.

 

[KingNanaya]

I agree with the thread 100%

 

[TiltedFN]

Doesn't Whis explicitly travel to other universes, which are spatio-temporally separated from Universe 7? Like Universe 10 for instance. Or is that somehow not relevant?

Yeah he does lmao, and he can travel to zenos dimension, but apparently that doesn't matter

 

[CloverDragon03]

Source rips of the Japanese subtitle files from various streaming platforms, including Prime Video—my preferred source, because they include the entire dialogue—can be found here.

I will keep this in mind for future endeavors

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah he does lmao, and he can travel to zenos dimension, but apparently that doesn't matter

Yeah so idk why it's being claimed that Whis can't do this

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah so idk why it's being claimed that Whis can't do this

We argued that the guides said that teleportation is the only way to reach these realms, because they have interdimensional properties, omega argued its wrong because whis doesn't use teleportation. I countered by saying while that may be true, whis has shown interdimensional properties with his warp, so whis traveling to other realms is not an anti feat for the realms being separated, like at all. And now omega is saying its wrong basically because it doesn't state that, but it doesn't have to, its SHOWN that whis warp ability is different. Clearly if special techniques and unique transportation methods like teleportation and the angels warp abilities are NEEDED, this literally means physical travel via 3D movement isnt possible and this proves the realms are separate dimensions. And the subspace shit.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah I really don't agree with Omega on that point at least

 

[omegabronic]

Doesn't Whis explicitly travel to other universes, which are spatio-temporally separated from Universe 7? Like Universe 10 for instance. Or is that somehow not relevant?

the point isn't if Whis can or not travel other dimensions, he can, the point is that it isn't teleportation, thus the statement saying that only teleporation can be used to reach the Kaioshin realm is retconed, that is all that the Warp is used as far as my arguments for its description go

 

[omegabronic]

Yeah so idk why it's being claimed that Whis can't do this

simple.......it isn't

 

[TiltedFN]

the point isn't if Whis can or not travel other dimensions, he can, the point is that it isn't teleportation, thus the statement saying that only teleporation can be used to reach the Kaioshin realm is retconed, that is all that the Warp is used as far as my arguments for its description go

Omega, I'm going to say this again, whis not teleporting DOES NOT MATTER. You just admitted yourself whis CAN travel to other dimensions so this argument should be OVER. If you want to argue the statement for teleportation only being possible is retconned, thats fine, but interdimensional abilities ONLY being able to reach these realms is still valid, therefore this entire argument still falls apart.

 

[omegabronic]

We argued that the guides said that teleportation is the only way to reach these realms, because they have interdimensional properties, omega argued its wrong because whis doesn't use teleportation.

that part isn't specified

I countered by saying while that may be true, whis has shown interdimensional properties with his warp, so whis traveling to other realms is not an anti feat for the realms being separated, like at all.

..........nor am i using the fact that he travels to them to prove such

And now omega is saying its wrong basically because it doesn't state that

what the hell are you even talking about? no, i am saying a statement that only teleporation works to make one reach a place is retconned by someone else using a completely different thing to reach the said place, thus the statement is contradicted.......where are you getting this outlandish ideas of me saying a completely different thing from what i am actually saying?

Clearly if special techniques and unique transportation methods like teleportation and the angels warp abilities are NEEDED, this literally means physical travel via 3D movement isnt possible and this proves the realms are separate dimensions.

considering the only statement that would even suggest that such methods are a necessity is contradicted by the Warp not being teleporation......no, it doesn't prove that at all

And the subspace shit.

even if the above were true, that doesn't prove the subspace part at all regardless

 

[omegabronic]

Omega, I'm going to say this again, whis not teleporting DOES NOT MATTER.

likewise i will say it again, it does, as without that there isn't anything that even remotely suggests or says that Interdimensional techniques are a necessity to reach the other realms

You just admitted yourself whis CAN travel to other dimensions so this argument should be OVER. If you want to argue the statement for teleportation only being possible is retconned, thats fine,

if you agree with the argument why are you continuing arguing with me for it?

but interdimensional abilities ONLY being able to reach these realms is still valid, therefore this entire argument still falls apart.

it isn't as that isn't said, they BEING able to reach these realms doesn't mean one NEEDS THEM EXCLUSIVELY to reach the realms, therefore you arguing that one NEEDS these type of things to travel to the likes of the Kaioshin realm is based on absolutely nothing

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean I have only a minor understanding of the thread given I don't really want to participate in it too much, but if only interdimensional travel abilities like teleportation and Whis's ability can reach these realms, I don't see what the point of contention is

 

[TiltedFN]

likewise i will say it again, it does, as without that there isn't anything that even remotely suggests or says that Interdimensional techniques are a necessity to reach the other realms

Omega, Im very tired of this back and forth, you're not making a lot of sense here at all, do you even know what you're trying to argue anymore? Let me ask you this, what methods have been used to travel to different dimensions? Lets go over it, Teleportation, like kai kai, and instant transmission. Next, we have whis warp ability, which is able to travel to other dimensions. Next, the cube, which is something specifically DESIGNED to go to different universes. Next? Breaking spacetime barriers, like in the buu saga. Next? No physical travel? Weird isn't it? That every method ever used to go to different dimensions have some unique interdimensional property huh? Now what does that tell us omega? That the ONLY way to go to other dimensions are any of the methods I listed already, if you can't prove otherwise you LOSE this point. Which means the dimensions are spatialtemporally separated.

if you agree with the argument why are you continuing arguing with me for it?

Because I'm saying me agreeing with the retcon of ONLY teleportation being needed to get there, that still doesn't disprove only interdimensional travel methods being required.

it isn't as that isn't said, they BEING able to reach these realms doesn't mean one NEEDS THEM EXCLUSIVELY to reach the realms, therefore you arguing that one NEEDS these type of things to travel to the likes of the Kaioshin realm is based on absolutely nothing

But it does until proven otherwise.

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean I have only a minor understanding of the thread given I don't really want to participate in it too much, but if only interdimensional travel abilities like teleportation and Whis's ability can reach these realms, I don't see what the point of contention is

The specific word teleport. In his eyes, even though it is teleporting adjacent/teleporting with extra steps/teleporting with travel time, it’s still totally not teleporting and that makes that statement (and the implications of it), totally invalid for use. From what I understand.

 

[omegabronic]

I mean I have only a minor understanding of the thread given I don't really want to participate in it too much, but if only interdimensional travel abilities like teleportation and Whis's ability can reach these realms, I don't see what the point of contention is

Point is......it isn't ever said that only these abilities can reach the realms, there is actually nothing supporting the notion of that being the case