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Saint Seiya speed issues

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Alonik

Alonik

957
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Hello everyone, i was rereading saint seiya and i saw several issues with speed of the bronze and silver saints, and it's need a revision. The actually problem that i found, it that this High Hypersonic calc it's in fact a outlier for the saints.

This feat is from Galaxian Wars, but after Galaxian Wars Seiya and his friends fought with many saints, he get miracles that increase his speed but not so much to be Mach 25.

Situation 1 and 2
According to Aiolia the speed of the bronze saints can only reach Mach 1, and in that moment Seiya speed is that.

And that claim is suitably important because this was after Pegasus Seiya and his friends fight with the Silver Saints. When Seiya fought with misty, he took a blitz from Lizard Misty (who have a speed variable of mach 2 to 5) before Seiya did a miracle.

0005-138
0005-139

Situation 3
After the miracle and the battle against Misty, Seiya started a fight with other silver saints, and he faces Hound Asterio that says the following thing about his speed and seiya.

Situation 4
Forward in the manga and after these two instances, seiya reached the Taurus House, and fought with Taurus Aldebaran, and before Seiya make a Miracle and awake to 7th sense, Aldebaran claims that the speed of Seiya who had recovered from all his injuries only reaches mach 1.

Situation 5
Different from previous situations, where the characters were said to only reaches X speed, here Acheron Charon, said that the speed of his oar reaches a speed above Mach 18.

And had a time who possibly can be calculated (if there someone of good heart to calc this), to find this exact value above Mach 18.

Conclusion
As you can see, the baseline of the saints at Pre 7th sense are Mach 1 and can reaches high speed like Mach 2 to 5 with miracles, and in Hades Arc, their power is so increased that they reaches high speeds above mach 18 without miracle or 7th sense.

So... the speed of the bronze saints has to be:

Mach 1 | Mach 2 to 5 | Mach 1 | Some number above Mach 18

Galaxians Wars | Miracles | Post Miracle | 7th sense unmastered

The speed of the silver saints on the base has to be Mach 2 ranging up to Mach 5

Notes

  1. This speed proposal is only for saints without performing 7th sense or specifics miracles, before or after the specific event is what i'm adressing here, not their speed during the specific event (Except for the battle against the silver saints).
  2. Yes, seiya was weakened because the battle against the Black Pegasus and Ikki, but that was no excuse for Seiya to elevate his cosmo via miracle above Misty and overcome Misty speed.

Agree: Archaro, ReshRech, EmperorRorepme, The Causality

Neutral: Sera EX, Antvasima

Disagree: Tyri456
 
I agree, it is consistent that this calculation does not match the reality presented in the classic, it is by far an outlier.
 
I see that all calculus that involves the speed of the Classic Ss, can be Outlier. Kurumada all times make clear the speed that the bronze saints have in the moment, and always reforce the fact that the Golden boys it's only Speed of Light.
 
Yes, but in this CRT is just the revision for the bronze boys and silver saints.
 
I guess this is true because of the narrative. If they were High Hypersonic they'd have a much easier time against the Silver Saints. I'm pretty sure Aiolia's statement is after they beat the Silver Saints though. Are you saying they got miracles here?

I don't know about statements for speed since Gold Saints are "light speed" and untouchable when they're much faster.
 
We tend to go by calculated feats over assumptions by the authors due to plot convenience.

You should ask Matthew to comment here in any case.
 
I mean, technically speaking, OP's reasoning is fine, but i don't know how to deal with it since we can also apply the same logic to the Gold Saint being only lightspeed despite the fact that they showed many other MFTL feat.
 
@EmperorRorepme

Yeah, is after they beat the Silver Saints, but in the midle of the fight, Hound Asterion said that his speed is Mach 2, but claim's of Aiolia i think is more important than just define the speed of the other silver saints based only in Asterion.

@Antvasima

I mean, this way is better too, but only when is coherent, no? After all this claim's of speed is not plot convenience, but rather a Kurumada rule. But i will call matthew anyway.
 
@The Causality

The Gold Saints of Episode G, it is shown that they can exceed the speed of light, but in the case of the classic, i don't see how they can be something above speed of light, since even Gemini Saga has taken blitz for something FTL, and consistably their speed is only SoL (only in classico of course)
 
There's MFTL feats by the Hades saga irrc. Saint Seiya, yes the Classic series, is known for its absurd speed. This was before Episode G btw. Kurumada only calling the speed SoL is because FTL/MFTL are not real terms.
 
Noted, but he still has a habit of calling FTL and MFTL feats SoL. Likewise he has a habit of claiming separate universal realms like Elysion and the Underworld are only separated from the ordinary universe by "light years" despite actually showing us otherwise.
 
I don't remember him calling any feat FTL or MFTL just like SoL, but rather that these scales of the Gold Saints is due to ep g and g.a or SoG.

Elysium and Underworld, is separated by cross-dimensional distance (Hyperdimension), even the teleport of Aries Mu and Virgo Shaka to the beginning of Hades arc has the nature of cross-dimensional.
 
I don't remember him calling any feat FTL or MFTL just like SoL, but rather that these gold saints scale is due to ep g and g.a or SoG.

This is actually the problem with how we do SS continuity, since Ep G is considered a prequel to the classic.
 
Disagree, you can apply the same logic at the gold saints, and it will be wrong for obvious reasons.
 
Gold Saints move at minimum the SoL. It's consistent with the series' powerscaling mechanics that they can increase their speed with their cosmos and even higher through miracles. I do believe their minimal speed needs to be listed as SoL in any case.
 
@Sera EX

Yeah... And it's a prequel with some very big lore problems against the classic.

And i agree with the minimum speed for the gold saints aswell.
 
Sera EX said:
I don't remember him calling any feat FTL or MFTL just like SoL, but rather that these gold saints scale is due to ep g and g.a or SoG.

This is actually the problem with how we do SS continuity, since Ep G is considered a prequel to the classic.
Click to expand...
Stubbornly, Ep G is treated as a prequel, but not quite, the events of Episode G, the concepts, the cosmology, the plots, everything is different, and yet people treat it as if the classic is the same as G, even though the reason for the story to start (the saga rebellion), was caused by another deity in G (Cronus), while in the real classic, it was a deity called ker who plotted against the sanctuary.
 
I agree, it has many contradictions to the original classic series which is why I consider it an alternate universe which is basically a retelling of the Gold Saints' history where Cronus was revived by Pontus and manipulated Saga, rather than Saga mostly acting merely off his evil side as was the case in the original. I'm open to the possibility of a retcon but I don't recall it ever been confirmed Sp G is a retcon. So I certainly agree with you on the continuity part.
 
Tyri456 said:
Disagree, you can apply the same logic at the gold saints, and it will be wrong for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
If you only consider the classic and Next Dimension, which is really as it should be, none gold saint can exceed the speed of light.
 
If no other Gold Saint can exceed the speed of light, what is the point of having the "fastest" Saint between the Gold if they all have the same speed?
 
To be fair, acceleration is a thing. Two cars can have a max speed of 340 km/h but the one that can go to from 0 to 90 in 4.5 seconds would be considered faster (or more accurately "quicker") than the one that hits 0 to 90 in 6 seconds.
 
I disagree with the contradictions, and inconsistencies beetween the canons there's already a thread about it. Which I will be replying to that today, or tomorrow 100% for sure I will since I don't work the next 3 days.

I have my own problem with the speed calcs currently. It's probably not for the same reason as you guys either though
 
@Sera

Thank you for helping out. So what do you think that we should do here?
 
Sera EX said:
To be fair, acceleration is a thing. Two cars can have a max speed of 340 km/h but the one that can go to from 0 to 90 in 4.5 seconds would be considered faster (or more accurately "quicker") than the one that hits 0 to 90 in 6 seconds.
Click to expand...
that is not the case tho
 
@Tyri

I know, I was just making a clarification since there ca be someone faster in the case of two people with the same top speed.
 
In episode g assassin's. The gold saints still have statements of being light speed. I can retrieve those in the future. Roland vs Shura. Shura did a thing that was labeled "faster than light mode activated"

In Episode G, they only seemingly become FTL in combat speed by focusing their Cosmo for only their attacks.

Doesn't the classic series have 1 statement of "faster than light!!?" I'll have to try and find it too later

Seiya used his 7th sense to dodge Aiolias lightening plasma

Lastly, I find some of the calcs a bit off when look at what the super Dimensional space is, and what it's properties are. That realm has not consistent, always in flux/disorting, and ever changing time and space. It's a place that only gods can traverse, or those with divine permission. this is basically Infinite speed/immeasurable speed for the gods

let's not bring up shuras miracle feat of cosmic inflation theory because that calc is a massive low-ball

I hate typing on phone lol
 
Sera EX said:
@Tyri

I know, I was just making a clarification since there ca be someone faster in the case of two people with the same top speed.
Click to expand...
Is there a standard for Statements vs calcs?
 
Has somebody asked Matthew to comment here?
 
I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

For the record, I think that we should ignore statements that contradict calculations though, as we do with other series. Otherwise Thor (Marvel Comics) would only be able to fight at 108 miles an hour and lift 100 tons for example, as that are his official handbook ratings.
 
Alonik said:
And Sera's logic fits perfectly into that, for the golds of the classic series.
Click to expand...
it doesnt xD I think tommorow I will write an huge comment on why put all of them at SOL is completely illogical according to our wiki rules about feats. Mankagas doesn't know physics, unconscously they can make char stronger than what they thought and also make them even consistent with those feats since they do that a lot of times. So you can't call them Outlier.

Regarding this thread, it is more debatable, but iirc, Shiyru stated that he was amping his speed in the context of the feats.
 
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