Saint Seiya; Low 1-C thread.

[Reiner04]

Continuation of this crt or even if he want to consider it separate it's fine;

Per FAQ, having more than one time axis in the verse is enough to prove qualitative superiority. The past and future in Saint Saiya are explicitly stated to be different time axes. This isn't stated Just once but twice. The future, operating on different time axis than past, is accumulation of events of the present, even as we speak, the ramification of future is endless and scattered. be “numerous” (数多) and “fragmented” while “branching” from “this universe.” A character named "Capricorn Shura" who is time traveller, was stated to be moving into different time axis when he was forced to go into an another world. The Universe is also stated to be extra-dimension which can be perceived by eigth consciousness.

Thanks to @Hasty12345 and @AlexZiggy to provide details over how Timetravel in Saint seiya do not affect future time axis either or has been shown to affect yet:

So I went and did some digging, Athena asked Kronos (Chronos, Khronos, Cronus, Cronos) to send her to the past to change the future, but that isn't how time travel works in the series. What ended up happening is she was sent to a different past branch. She was also told that time travel cannot change history. Additionally, in Saint Seiya: Episode G Assassins, it was made evident that the "past" is indefinite and cannot be undone. Aiolios, of the Lost World, took Aiolia from his world's past, and moved him into another branch, but that did not alter, or change, his own branch in any way, shape, or form, from a time paradox, or change his branches future. It remained the same by all events being completely untouched, and unchanged. Another example is Avenir from Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas Gaidens, and Kairos. Avenir was rescued by Kronos (Chronos, Khronos, Cronus, Cronos), and sent to the past, but that didn't change his branches history. Additionally, Karios was not apart of Avenirs branch. Kairos was an anomaly in the Saint Seiya: Lost Canvas branch. The reason Avenir was moved from his branch into the branch of Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas was strictly because of Kairos. Thus, time travel to change the past history, or past events, of a Universe is not something that exist within the Saint Seiya universe.

外の世界では消え続け、別の世界では在り続ける
Disappearing from one world and appearing in another,

同じ人間が同時に存在する世界
The same people existing simultaneously in the same world.

ブラックホール情報パラドックス
It's the Black Hole Information Paradox.

ボク等はそこを超えて未来（ここ）に来た
We crossed over from there and came here, to the future.

それを許されたのはボク等がこの未来では既に死んでいるから
We were allowed to do so because we are already dead in this future.

過去の世界は多数改変されても
Even if the past world suffers many changes,

死んだ歴史は変わらない
the history of the dead is unchanged.

GA chapter 31

Be civil, whoever tried to wrote off more than 3 posts can have a nice chat with me /jk idc about Saint Seiya, just that previous crt was mess.

Agree: @Hasty12345 (educationally enhanced), @Danny33wise, @Pepsimanslover_69, @AlexZiggy, @Robo432343

Disagee: @PrinceofPein, @Georredannea15 (multiple time axis is not enough, they must have statement of being perpendicular)

Neutral: @LuffyRuffy46307 (?), @Accelerated_Evolution, @Qawsedf234 (Clarified what will and what will not qualify but choose to not take any side due to not kmowin about series enough)

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

If it's Reiner, then he's right and i don't even need to show disagreement.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

can have a nice chat with me

something I can offer

lmao

Neutral per now

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Im gonna withhold judgment for now, but it seems to me that the first scan is being slightly misinterpreted. AFAIK Athena went into the "past" which is supposed to be a different universe altogether so it doesnt seem like you necessarily need a second temporal axis/dimension to explain that (although correct me if Im wrong here, and if i am then I have no idea how time is flowing slower in the "past" than it is in the present).

 

[Reiner04]

Im gonna withhold judgment for now, but it seems to me that the first scan is being slightly misinterpreted. AFAIK Athena went into the "past" which is supposed to be a different universe altogether so it doesnt seem like you necessarily need a second temporal axis/dimension to explain that (although correct me if Im wrong here).

The point is, as long as different time axis is stated to exist, regardless if in form of different universes, timelines or worlds. That'd be enough from what I know and stated in faq. Incase if direct statement regarding different time axes doesn't exist, as it's unlikely for fiction to get into such wording and concepts and use the term, there can be different ways to prove it too which Ben 10 like Verses had used (time travel and stuff). But Saint seiya seems to be kinda direct approach different time axes than to go over other roundabout cases mentioned in FAQ.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

The point is, as long as different time axis is stated to exist, regardless if in form of different universes, timelines or worlds. That'd be enough from what I know and stated in faq. Incase if direct statement regarding different time axes doesn't exist, as it's unlikely for fiction to get into such wording and concepts and use the term, there can be different ways to prove it too which Ben 10 like Verses had used (time travel and stuff). But Saint seiya seems to be kinda direct approach different time axes than to go over other roundabout cases mentioned in FAQ.

Yeah I see what you mean but I just think some context as to what these "time axes" are are necessary since misunderstanding them is what lead to me believing high 1-B

 

[GarrixianXD]

Disagree because I hate you

 

[Reiner04]

Yeah I see what you mean but I just think some context as to what these "time axes" are are necessary since misunderstanding them is what lead to me believing high 1-B

Yeah, that's why I excluded high 1-B stuff, since our standards treats timelines and time axes differently and so I don't think that was anywhere enough.

Disagree because I hate you

.... divorce???

 

[GarrixianXD]

.... divorce???

Widow.

 

[Ziplak]

stop it you edaters.

 

[Hasty12345]

I definitely see where this CRT is coming from. So I agree.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I definitely see where this CRT is coming from. So I agree.

can you help resolve my confusion with it?

Im gonna withhold judgment for now, but it seems to me that the first scan is being slightly misinterpreted. AFAIK Athena went into the "past" which is supposed to be a different universe altogether so it doesnt seem like you necessarily need a second temporal axis/dimension to explain that (although correct me if Im wrong here, and if i am then I have no idea how time is flowing slower in the "past" than it is in the present).

 

[Reiner04]

stop it you edaters.

Respect e-dating, e-gf, e-bf, e-marriage, e-wife, e-life, e-sex, e-childrens, e-grandchildrens please ( Joke aside. That's enough of shit posting. Let’s focus on thread at hand now.

 

[Georredannea15]

Per FAQ, having more than one time axis in the verse is enough to prove qualitative superiority.

Mehh... Having more than one time axis in the verse does not mean that these axes flow in different direction from each other. It does not. We have already revised this

It seemed to me more like different timelines branching infinitely into the past and the future. That's why I think it will be 2-A. Yeah, there's a little bit more things here, but for now I'm in 2-A.

"Extra-dimensional can basically be used in many ways (even as an "area" outside of space) so I won't touch that too much"

 

[Reiner04]

Mehh... Having more than one time axis in the verse does not mean that these axes flow in different direction from each other. It does not. We have already revised this

Different time axes are enough tbh. I was in that thread too. And that's what faq states, tho u might wanna confirm from whoever staff u consider knowledgeable on tier 1, if in case of "Different Time Axis" statements you need orthogonality stuff stated or not. Will save me a discussion of no point when points of disagreement are known.

 

[Georredannea15]

Different time axes are enough tbh. I was in that thread too. And that's what faq states, tho u might wanna confirm from whoever staff u consider knowledgeable on tier 1, if in case of "Different Time Axis" statements you need orthogonality stuff stated or not. Will save me a discussion of no point when points of disagreement are known.

Ahhh yes, I was the one who opened that thread. And different time axes can basically fallow along the same direction and it's not a hyper timeline, you have to be able to distinguish between the two. And yes, you can wait for the experts if you want. But I am quite sure that this is the case.

The important thing is that it's clear that different directions are a necessity. If "separate" means something in that sense it's fine. If separate just means separate in space or separate due to one being a subset of the other, then not.

It's a quote from DT.

I also talked to Ultima about it in DM. He had an example of the difference between the two, but I think it's better not to belabor the point here

 

[Reiner04]

Ahhh yes, I was the one who opened that thread. And different time axes can basically fallow along the same direction and it's not a hyper timeline, you have to be able to distinguish between the two. And yes, you can wait for the experts if you want. But I am quite sure that this is the case.


It's a quote from DT.

I also talked to Ultima about it in DM. He had an example of the difference between the two, but I think it's better not to belabor the point here

I know what was stated too, and I has been following around the same thing. The point of FAQ is that mentioning 2 different time axis itself means separate as in directional manner, with no wording needed beyond it. Since barely any fiction mentions anything near of 2 time axis existence. Sk while it necessary, for different time axis it's default. The roundabout method needs additional and lot of stuff. But as I said, point of disagreement is known and convincing won't be possible beyond it. So u can ask some knowledgeable staff to visit.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Since barely any fiction mentions anything near of 2 time axis existence

Different time axis can work on their own if there's no contradicting evidence. The fact that time travel can cause branching timelines and effect things in the past would point at a standard multiverse rather than Low 1-C or High 1-B.

 

[Georredannea15]

I know what was stated too, and I has been following around the same thing. The point of FAQ is that mentioning 2 different time axis itself means separate as in directional manner, with no wording needed beyond it. Since barely any fiction mentions anything near of 2 time axis existence. Sk while it necessary, for different time axis it's default. The roundabout method needs additional and lot of stuff. But as I said, point of disagreement is known and convincing won't be possible beyond it. So u can ask some knowledgeable staff to visit.

Well, I still stand by what I said and I am sure that is the case. Because 2 different temporal axes can still extend in the same direction. But let's see, the staffs will decide

But it saddens me that you don't agree with me...

 

[Hasty12345]

Different time axis can work on their own if there's no contradicting evidence. The fact that time travel can cause branching timelines and effect things in the past would point at a standard multiverse rather than Low 1-C or High 1-B.

But these structures are in the same universe structure or "timeline" (using that term loosely here given the nature of the discussion), so would you be in support of the universe being multiversal if not low 1-C?

I want to get clarification on this as it was a major component of the previous thread that this is continuing, but it's not touched upon too much on the OP.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But these structures are in the same universe structure or "timeline" (using that term loosely here given the nature of the discussion)

Having different universes in the same space is Tier 2. The only way to get Tier 1 is if you could prove that two things exist in the same physical plane and that the time erasure of one section wouldn't effect the other section.

The OP just reads as standard multiversal time travel.

 

[Reiner04]

The fact that time travel can cause branching timelines and effect things in the past would point at a standard multiverse rather than Low 1-C or High 1-B.

I would like to clarify that in Saint seiya, universes branches on their own, not time travel. Future axis contains the timelines that has been branched off from present.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

AFAIK Athena went into the "past" which is supposed to be a different universe altogether so it doesnt seem like you necessarily need a second temporal axis/dimension to explain that

How can you prove a second temporal axis through time travel ?

 

[Hasty12345]

For reference, these timeline-like structures are within the universe structure, and there's more evidence of this in the linked thread.

 

[Danny33wise]

I was gonna type agree before, but given other people comments I guess I will have to wait. Still leaning towards agree though.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

How can you prove a second temporal axis through time travel ?

If you can demonstrate a second flow of time with your time travel NOT leading to branching timelines then it can be used as evidence for a second temporal dimension

 

[Reiner04]

For reference, these timeline-like structures are within the universe structure, and there's more evidence of this in the linked thread.

I think as per Qawsed, having multiple time axis is enough, so as long there is not anything which contradicts those 2 time axis separate, like changes in past changes future, time travel to last creates new timelines, etc

 

[Hasty12345]

I think as per Qawsed, having multiple time axis is enough, so as long there is not anything which contradicts those 2 time axis separate, like changes in past changes future, time travel to last creates new timelines, etc

There's none of that yet but we will see in summer when the time travel saga finally ends

 

[Reiner04]

There's none of that yet but we will see in summer when the time travel saga finally ends

Uh I see. Then should be fine ig.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think as per Qawsed, having multiple time axis is enough, so as long there is not anything which contradicts those 2 time axis separate, like changes in past changes future, time travel to last creates new timelines, etc

So I went and did some digging, Athena asked Kronos (Chronos, Khronos, Cronus, Cronos) to send her to the past to change the future, but that isn't how time travel works in the series. What ended up happening is she was sent to a different past branch. She was also told that time travel cannot change history. Additionally, in Saint Seiya: Episode G Assassins, it was made evident that the "past" is indefinite and cannot be undone. Aiolios, of the Lost World, took Aiolia from his world's past, and moved him into another branch, but that did not alter, or change, his own branch in any way, shape, or form, from a time paradox, or change his branches future. It remained the same by all events being completely untouched, and unchanged. Another example is Avenir from Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas Gaidens, and Kairos. Avenir was rescued by Kronos (Chronos, Khronos, Cronus, Cronos), and sent to the past, but that didn't change his branches history. Additionally, Karios was not apart of Avenirs branch. Kairos was an anomaly in the Saint Seiya: Lost Canvas branch. The reason Avenir was moved from his branch into the branch of Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas was strictly because of Kairos. Thus, time travel to change the past history, or past events, of a Universe is not something that exist within the Saint Seiya universe.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Put down for agree can you offer me Pepsi instead?

 

[Reiner04]

So I went and did some digging, Athena asked Kronos (Chronos, Khronos, Cronus, Cronos) to send her to the past to change the future, but that isn't how time travel works in the series. What ended up happening is she was sent to a different past branch. She was also told that time travel cannot change history. Additionally, in Saint Seiya: Episode G Assassins, it was made evident that the "past" is indefinite and cannot be undone. Aiolios, of the Lost World, took Aiolia from his world's past, and moved him into another branch, but that did not alter, or change, his own branch in any way, shape, or form, from a time paradox, or change his branches future. It remained the same by all events being completely untouched, and unchanged. Another example is Avenir from Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas Gaidens, and Kairos. Avenir was rescued by Kronos (Chronos, Khronos, Cronus, Cronos), and sent to the past, but that didn't change his branches history. Additionally, Karios was not apart of Avenirs branch. Kairos was an anomaly in the Saint Seiya: Lost Canvas branch. The reason Avenir was moved from his branch into the branch of Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas was strictly because of Kairos. Thus, time travel to change the past history, or past events, of a Universe is not something that exist within the Saint Seiya universe.

Different time axis can work on their own if there's no contradicting evidence. The fact that time travel can cause branching timelines and effect things in the past would point at a standard multiverse rather than Low 1-C or High 1-B.

Bump. Can u take a look at it?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

In fact, i'm going to give my opinion on changes in Saint Seiya's time.

 

[Hasty12345]

In fact, i'm going to give my opinion on changes in Saint Seiya's time.

Go for it

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

All the stories about not changing that line still happen in Saint Seiya.

In fact, Athena causes a distortion in the flow of space-time and will end up destroying the Universe in a type of domino effect, caused by Athena when returning to the past, messing with the timeline and will cause the destruction of the Universe or erase a certain line of the universe time.

Chronos also says that changes can happen in the timeline

Oh yes! In fact, Chronos himself warns Athena about changes in the past, and changes in the past can still happen

There are other mentions of changes to the timeline

Furthermore, it is mentioned by Pandora, with Athena's return to the past changing the flow of time in the past

All events throughout the ND series show the knights and Athena changing stories with mere events, such as the case of Odysseus who was not supposed to be resurrected during the series (all of this was caused by Athena and her bronze boys), I also forgot to mention that Because of Athena returning to the past prevented Sasha from awakening as Athena, drastically changing the past of the timeline.

And more mentions of Athena's cause in the past

In addition to delaying Hades' arrival in Alone's body

Odysseus mentioned that strange things can happen with two Athena in the same period of time

Athena with her unpleasant presence is shaping the entire timeline and causing strange events in the past

Athena, returning to the past, is causing this, it is said by Asclepius that she is breaking a law (causing the entire Universe to collapse completely or timeline).

By the way, ND things happen in the past that actually affect the future, so I don't think it qualifies as low 1-C anyway.

The past was affecting the future in some way, something that never happened in the future is happening, due to Athena's changes when traveling through time

Athena goes to the past to affect the future, where she steals Hades' sword, so that the same fate doesn't happen where Seiya meets his death in his future, so there's plenty of evidence that changes in the past can affect the future itself




I disagree about the part about not changing anything, because it's literally shown events that Athena does shape the entire flow of time.

Although, i think this should be added, since there is a different space-time flow between the past and future timelines. (i'm completely sure it will help with low 1-C)

 

[Hasty12345]

I think there’s been a misunderstanding, no one is saying Athena isn’t changing the past with her time travel, the problem is the future events aren’t changing due to that time travel.

Also, your English has drastically improved, congratulations, it’s not an easy language to learn. Take pride in that.

 

[Reiner04]

Uh i should have clarified it- Changes in past, spacetime hax/distortion in present, is fine. So long changes in past only affects past and not the future timeline.

 

[Hasty12345]

Uh i should have clarified it- Changes in past, spacetime hax/distortion in present, is fine. So long changes in past only affects past and not the future timeline.

At this stage, that’s what is presented in the manga, but as I said earlier, subject to change pending the finale of the time travel arc.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I think there’s been a misunderstanding, no one is saying Athena isn’t changing the past with her time travel, the problem is the future events aren’t changing due to that time travel.

Actually, i forgot to mention and the scan where it shows that the future is also being affected, but on a small scale, i remember that strange words appeared from the past to the future.

Anyway, when find it, post the scan here

Also, your English has drastically improved, congratulations, it’s not an easy language to learn. Take pride in that.

What nothing

 

[AlexZiggy]

There are some other scans from GA awaiting proper translations, but as for now, I agree with Hasty, and the upgrade.