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SoL-only seems to be too slow for Gold Saints

Speed scaling in Saint Seiya is incredibly flat. More cosmo=more speed is something that applies to the lower tier Saints then the 7th sense grants light-speed movement. Speed scaling chains in Saint Seiya aren't a thing, unlike other shonen like Naruto or One Piece.
 
Hasty12345 said:
Speed scaling in Saint Seiya is incredibly flat. More cosmo=more speed is something that applies to the lower tier Saints then the 7th sense grants light-speed movement. Speed scaling chains in Saint Seiya aren't a thing, unlike other shonen like Naruto or One Piece.
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Which doesn't make too much sense (Saga blitzes Aiolia with a SoL attack when they're both SoL and he was looking right at him) but Is the most consistent position
 
AlexZiggy said:
Which doesn't make too much sense (Saga blitzes Aiolia with a SoL attack when they're both SoL and he was looking right at him) but Is the most consistent position
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I think it makes some level of sense.

2 characters of the same speed and perception at close ranges would come down to who launches the attack first a lot of the time, which is more or less how Saint seiya fights go.

When Seiya pressed Saga with light speed movement, Seiya was well into the attack by the time Saga had realised Seiya reached that speed.

It is weird, and there is a forced rationalisation of how fights play out. However, all 7th sense users having static speed is just how the verse works.
 
Hasty12345 said:
Nah that statement is in the anime, in the manga when he raises his cosmo to its limit it doesn't state a speed
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Hasty12345 said:

The FTL statement comes from Athena's shield


I am aware of the context, however, none of those statements make the bronzes FTL, my point wasn't that the bronzes cannot reach light-speed, it was their stated speeds aren't billions of times FTL. The only explicit mention of FTL movement is from Ody and Tenma, where Ody says that he's FTL hence why Golds couldn't hit him with their light speed fist.


Before anyone says this panel goes against me, Sukiyo's cosmo was surrounding Tenma


So it was an aided feat, a feat consistent with how FTL speed is portrayed in the spin-offs as well, but that's not too relevant.

More to the point, if Ody says the Golds are light-speed (whom he fought just about all of), that would include Cain who's above the 18th and 20th century Golds.

So Golds being FTL is massively inconsistent, with the lowest peg on the scaling chain that can reach FTL speeds being Ody and Sukiyo amped Tenma, if not Athena's shield.
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The Next Dimension scans linked are from an unofficial English translation (fanfox.net). So they need to be taken with a grain of salt.

As Saint Seiya: Next Dimension does not currently have a licensed english version we really need to be using the raw japanese.
 
AllForOne said:
The Next Dimension scans are from an unofficial English translation (fanfox.net). So they need to be taken with a grain of salt.

As Saint Seiya: Next Dimension does not currently have a licensed english version we really need to be using the raw japanese.
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So the only evidence remotely in favour of the OP is useless.

That helps me thank you.
 
Hasty12345 said:
So I guess your idea of the verse comes down to Classic, Sho and nothing else.
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Not at all. Just use the raw japanese. Even statements in the Viz Media version can and should be contested with the raw scans.

If the raws support your claims, so be it. But follow the translation hierarchy. Anything 'unofficial' is automatically questionable. Right or wrong.
 
Hasty12345 said:
it's a wormhole with fluctuating time and and space, there's no "minimum speed" that can be assumed.
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I also agree with this, in HD there is mention of space-time being distorted in that place, there is also a guide talking about it and the anime, I don't think we should treat it as a feat of speed.
 
Hasty12345 said:
As it currently stands, the CRT has no basis given it's trying to upgrade characters with an unaccepted calc.

It should have been closed pretty much immediately. The OP has made no effort to support their claim with scans or scaling beyond the calc, this debate is pointless. As such, I'm not going to waste my time gathering scans for an extensive debunk of a non-existent point.

This is not a discord debate server unless you're going to take over for the OP with a validated calc and scans of your own, I'm not going waste my time proving claims that are self-evident for anyone who has read the manga, which is who my comments are targeted towards.
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LordGriffin1000 said:
Oh, I only just noticed that. It wasn't anyone I was familiar with. I guess there isn't an issue if they were a calc member back at that time.

I guess I can agree with this upgrade then.
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Could you close this crt?
 
Speed of light is baseline, faster than light when burning ones cosmos and pushing their limits. Easy.

Actually every stat in Saint Seiya using variable depending on willpower.
 
Read the series? Every single fight Seiya is either stronger or weaker depending or motivation or how much cosmos he burns. This is true of every single Saint.

The reason Seiya can be supersonic, reach the speed of light, move faster than light against Saga, and then next arc he is back to being supersonic is because his base power didn’t increase. all that increased was his potential peak.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Read the series? Every single fight Seiya is either stronger or weaker depending or motivation or how much cosmos he burns. This is true of every single Saint.

The reason Seiya can be supersonic, reach the speed of light, move faster than light against Saga, and then next arc he is back to being supersonic is because his base power didn’t increase. all that increased was his potential peak.
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I have read the series, and I'm not contending pre-7th sense Seiya doesn't go faster with higher cosmo, that's where this misunderstanding comes from - assuming the logic for 6th sense users holds for 7th sense.

Seiya doesn't go FTL against Seiya.

It is a flat out lie to say 7th sense users exceed light speed without some divine or miraculous aid, with the sole exception being some Dark Wing character.
 
Been talking about this with some other guy in discord. Do you think Saint Seiya treats FTL speed and Infinite Speed as intercheangeable?

Like:

  • Leo Vassilios in Dark Wing is able to throw "Infinite punches" with his Lightning Plasma when he goes faster than light (Contrast that to a finite number when the attack is fired at the Speed of Light).
  • God Cloth Seiya was able to match Sigurd by punching him infinitely with his Meteor Fists in Assassin. Again, the Pegasus Meteor Fist has a finite number of punches when fired at Slower-Than-Light speeds.
  • When Shura "Surpasses the speed of light and the speed of the Big Bang" in Assassin, the RAW Japanese text specifically mentions him moving so fast that causality no longer applies
  • When Aiolia fights Cronus in Episode G, they make a big deal out of Aiolia and Cronus moving faster than light, but Cronus's faster than light speed is paired simultaneously with his power as the God of Time and his control over time. He even has a technique where he instantaneously hits the opponent, but Aiolia is still able to dodge.
This isn't a real Revision Thread but its something to think about. All of these examples have major "Flash goes FTL and enters the Speed Force" vibes to me, where moving faster than the Speed of Light means to move so fast you distort time and causality.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Been talking about this with some other guy in discord. Do you think Saint Seiya treats FTL speed and Infinite Speed as intercheangeable?

Like:

  • Leo Vassilios in Dark Wing is able to throw "Infinite punches" with his Lightning Plasma when he goes faster than light (Contrast that to a finite number when the attack is fired at the Speed of Light).
  • God Cloth Seiya was able to match Sigurd by punching him infinitely with his Meteor Fists in Assassin. Again, the Pegasus Meteor Fist has a finite number of punches when fired at Slower-Than-Light speeds.
  • When Shura "Surpasses the speed of light and the speed of the Big Bang" in Assassin, the RAW Japanese text specifically mentions him moving so fast that causality no longer applies
  • When Aiolia fights Cronus in Episode G, they make a big deal out of Aiolia and Cronus moving faster than light, but Cronus's faster than light speed is paired simultaneously with his power as the God of Time and his control over time. He even has a technique where he instantaneously hits the opponent, but Aiolia is still able to dodge.
This isn't a real Revision Thread but its something to think about. All of these examples have major "Flash goes FTL and enters the Speed Force" vibes to me, where moving faster than the Speed of Light means to move so fast you distort time and causality.
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This is something I Bern thinking about. Since there is weird emphasis on "Divine speed" in things like G.

Also, GR introduced the idea that the universes in Saint seiya are infinite in distance and size
 
Hmm. Just for notation. Perhaps attack speed and travel speed could be differentiated in the SS verse. This would explain the MFTL feats without clashing too much with the whole Light Speed punches gimmick the series has.

Best of both worlds I guess. I'm only voicing a shower thought with this though.
 
AllForOne said:
Hmm. Just for notation. Perhaps attack speed and travel speed could be differentiated in the SS verse. This would explain the MFTL feats without clashing too much with the whole Light Speed punches gimmick the series has.

Best of both worlds I guess. I'm only voicing a shower thought with this though.
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Interesting thought, however, I don’t really see a reason for doing that given god tiers have plenty FTL combat speed feats and have travel speed feats in similar ranges.

The hyper dimension feat, as I explained and was accepted a few CRTs ago is not a calculable feat. So there’s no reason to split these statistics.
 
Hasty12345 said:
Interesting thought, however, I don’t really see a reason for doing that given god tiers have plenty FTL combat speed feats and have travel speed feats in similar ranges.

The hyper dimension feat, as I explained and was accepted a few CRTs ago is not a calculable feat. So there’s no reason to split these statistics.
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I think its worth noting on the profile. Since VSBW aims to list all of the statistics.

Probably something like: Speed of Light (attacks and reactions), MFTL+ (travel speed.)
 
AllForOne said:
I think its worth noting on the profile. Since VSBW aims to list all of the statistics.

Probably something like: Speed of Light (attacks and reactions), MFTL+ (travel speed.)
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As I just explained, that’s pointless when the characters that have MFTL travel speed feats scale to or have MFTL combat speed feats.

There aren’t any instances (that I am aware of) that would require such a split.

Gold Saints don’t scale to any MFTL travel speed feats whatsoever, and gods and god cloths scale to infinite speed combat feats.

The hyper dimension feat, which is the only basis for such a split, once again isn’t calculable and it’s inconsistent for bronze saints to be MFTL pre god cloth transformation.
 
I don't see how you can split it anyways. It just creates more incoherencies and would still have the same problem and issues as before.

Heck light speed in if itself is already super inconsistent inverse. I just wonder of SoL is supposed to be infinite speed. I have reasons for that but I would say their concrete in anyway though.
 
So, what's the verdict on this thread? I am kind of leaning with the op and what matt first said. Gold saint can indeed reach a speed that is faster than light.
 
Hasty12345 said:
Have you got a single feat you could use to support that claim?
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Didn't seiya with a broken leg reached ftl? Didn't the author also state higher cosmos =higher stat? I don't see why that logic should be ignored here when that basically a point that added to how infinite speed god tier got accepted.

I agree with op, LS is to slow.
 
Danny33wise said:
Didn't seiya with a broken leg reached ftl? Didn't the author also state higher cosmos =higher stat? I don't see why that logic should be ignored here when that basically a point that added to how infinite speed god tier got accepted.

I agree with op, LS is to slow.
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No he didn't.

Seiya got a miracle (doesn't scale to his regular stats) to raise his cosmo to Aiolia's level.


If he's on Aiolia's level, he's not faster than Aiolia.


again stated to only be on a Gold Saints level, which is light speed.

There's no FTL feat here, and Seiya having a broken doesn't make him faster.
 
To give my 2 cents:
If there's an undeniable thing is that many times it was argued that a miracle was the thing who got the person to more than SoL, so I guess if we truly want best of both worlds, the minimum is "SoL (our argumentation for that)  higher with miracles", no?
 
noninho said:
To give my 2 cents:
If there's an undeniable thing is that many times it was argued that a miracle was the thing who got the person to more than SoL, so I guess if we truly want best of both worlds, the minimum is "SoL (our argumentation for that)  higher with miracles", no?
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That was my plan I just need the FTL miracle feats calculated since almost all the verse calcs were deemed invalid.
 
Hasty12345 said:
1 and with new cosmology details it’s infinite speed. So when you ask me if I think Golds are FTL my answer is no.
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Actually we may need to start differentiating the timelines.

I've been reading up on the overall lore and a lot of different installments in the series listed as alternate timelines canon to the original multiverse.

Episode G and Assassin maybe should have their own profiles for that reason.
 
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