Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

[Ultima_Reality]

It could be inferred, for instance, that the temporal dimension is what governs causality and thus something that is outside spacetime should be acausal, but that's very rarely the case in practice

That's because we don't consider causality to be restricted by time, as a default. I believe the example that was given back when this was discussed is that fiction often depicts cause-and-effect relationships happening in places without time or places with stopped time. So the assumption is that the temporal dimension does not govern causality to begin with.

Here, meanwhile, we do know that the White-Hot Room is the root of all becoming in the lower planes, so the inference I am making here is not comparable to what you say at all.

 

[Deagonx]

That's because we don't consider causality to be restricted by time, as a default. I believe the example that was given back when this was discussed is that fiction often depicts cause-and-effect relationships happening in places without time or places with stopped time. So the assumption is that the temporal dimension does not govern causality to begin with.

Is that because it is not logically sound or because it is so routinely ignored by fictional verses?

 

[Antvasima]

I need to perform some minor cleaning in his sandboxes first. Standard Procedure.

That seems fine to me, if you only want to improve on the spelling, grammar, formatting, and similar.

What do you think, Ultima?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Is that because it is not logically sound or because it is so routinely ignored by fictional verses?

The examples used to justify the notion point towards the latter, but it doesn't particularly matter, either way. For the purposes of this discussion, the WHR is much more analogous to a case where we are, in fact, explicitly told that the temporal dimension governs causality.

What do you think, Ultima?

I believe Lawyer has already taken care of that? What exactly does Dread plan to polish?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Lawyer only works in the terms of placements and formatting, I work more on grammar and spelling.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I have rendered Chaos and Order images, since the outlines are a bit pixeled. I cleaned them and replaced them.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Are you going to create new pages or simply move them to existing pages? Since there are many with invalid links (mentioned Characters), if you are doing the latter, let me know, so I can fix those.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ultima_Reality I’m not sure I follow the whole “they’re above creation therefore they become unchangeable” part, plus the Imgur scan you linked I can barely read the text without it being blurry as hell. Is there a blog I can look through that talks about this and how the beings above the white hot room become a constant or whatever? Because the scans on the profiles aren’t really explaining anything for type 5.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

• Possibility 1 – time manipulation: I think the character could simply be beyond cause and effect, might have the ability to manipulate time itself. This could mean they can move freely through time, affecting events, without being subject to the linear flow of cause and effect. Their actions might seem to defy causality from the perspective of observers.
• Possibility 2: Or the character could exist simultaneously in multiple parallel universes, where cause and effect operates differently in each. This might allow them to interact with events across different realities in ways that appear non-causal in any single universe.
• Possibility 4: Rather than being unchangeable, this person's consciousness could exist outside of the constraints of time. They might experience all moments simultaneously and have a unique perspective on cause and effect, making them seem unbound by it.
• Possibility 5 – symbolic abstract? A character beyond cause and effect could represent abstract concepts, such as the human yearning for freedom from determinism or the search for meaning in a seemingly random world.

I'd like to point out that Loki is already displaced in time in Issue#3 yet he is still subject to the white hot room.
So the assumption of simply being above time or any time related stuff is not a plausible conclusion. Further more in the White Hot Room a cause can happen without consequences of abyss which is what gives birth to what could be. Etc.
I believe reading the issue would give more context on what the scan is trying to say and uh. It definitely need a blog since you have to tackle multiple issues of defenders beyond to gain the full context of these higher cosmological stuff like The Abyss and Pure Phoenix Force etc

 

[Comicgyal]

I would certainly be willing to help create a blog containing the WHR, and pure Phoenix Force information— as one of the main forces for its prior 1A upgrades.

Also, do not forget to change Jean Greys White Phoenix key in accordance to the Phoenix Force’s upgrades/changes.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Just out of curiosity, would this upgrade require any of the discussion rules to be removed?

• Do not attempt to upgrade Dormammu, Umar, Eternity, and all of the other Marvel Comics cosmic entities to tier 1-A, based on a single mention within the 2005 "Defenders" series, given that it would enormously contradict virtually everything else known about the characters. In addition, a 1-A fictional environment does not remotely automatically translate to the nature of any characters present within it, or plenty of much weaker characters would qualify as well.

• Also do not attempt to upgrade Galactus to 1-A, based on "Spider-Man and the Secret Wars". The story is not a part of continuity any more than "Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet" or "Captain America and the Korvac Saga", which were released in conjunction, as part of the same imprint. In addition, if you read the entire comicbook, rather than an out-of-context scan, you clearly see that the Enchantress is not referring to Galactus being beyond all concepts of dimensions of time and space altogether, but about his infinite real size compared to the cosmos, how he can affect lots of different aspects of existence with his reality-warping powers, and since she and Spider-Man are strictly physical entities, they only perceive a small part of his entire being. See here for more information. It would also contradict everything else that we know about Galactus.

 

[Gasper]

Just out of curiosity, would this upgrade require any of the discussion rules to be removed?

We're not using "Spider-Man and the Secret Wars" comic, no. But that should be removed anyway, yes.

As for dormammu, that should be removed too.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Just to be clear, will Marvel be downgraded to High 3-A, Low 2-C, or just a lower level of 2-C?

Not sure, there's some feats I haven't assembled yet.

 

[Theglassman12]

Talked to Ultima through discord and he better explained the arguments for type 5 Acausality. It looks fine to me.

 

[Elizhaa]

Acausality type 5 seems fine to me from what I read.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That should be fine to apply then.

 

[Gasper]

I think everything is good to apply, right?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I believe so, yes. I'll apply the revisions when I finish the remaining few profiles. I don't have time to do wiki stuff at length at the moment and my stay in this thread is already stretching things a bit, so, that'll probably happen by the weekend.

That said, we still need to settle on at least a provisional tier for the Heralds, since that affects Galactus' profile, and we can't exactly treat Yggdrasil as both 2-C and High 1-A.

 

[Robo432343]

I believe so, yes. I'll apply the revisions when I finish the remaining few profiles. I don't have time to do wiki stuff at length at the moment and my stay in this thread is already stretching things a bit, so, that'll probably happen by the weekend.

That said, we still need to settle on at least a provisional tier for the Heralds, since that affects Galactus' profile, and we can't exactly treat Yggdrasil as both 2-C and High 1-A.

are you gonna work on oblivions profile

 

[Gasper]

are you gonna work on oblivions profile

He will

 

[Antvasima]

I believe so, yes. I'll apply the revisions when I finish the remaining few profiles. I don't have time to do wiki stuff at length at the moment and my stay in this thread is already stretching things a bit, so, that'll probably happen by the weekend.

That said, we still need to settle on at least a provisional tier for the Heralds, since that affects Galactus' profile, and we can't exactly treat Yggdrasil as both 2-C and High 1-A.

Do we have any reliable feats for the herald-level characters that are above tier High 3-A?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Just to be clear, will Marvel be downgraded to High 3-A, Low 2-C, or just a lower level of 2-C?

Seems like most of the feats gathered fall under High 3-A, so I’d go with that for now.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I compiled a list of all the feats I know about for Marvel heralds. However, I haven't had time to figure out the sourcing yet, and I don't know which ones are reliable enough to use.
Thor

• An infant Thor’s crying summoned a storm more fierce and powerful than any god had ever remembered up until that point, enough to rattle all of Asgard itself.
• Created a storm from Asgard that’s so strong it destroys mountains and buildings from Earth.
• Created a universe shaking thermo-blast.
• Pulled the Midgard Serpent away from Earth at high speeds; the Midgard Serpent extended all the way from Earth to Asgard.
• Superior to Jane Foster, who can create shockwaves so powerful they shake planets from half a universe away.
• Shattered planets thousands of miles away in his fight with Gorr.
• Shattered a small portion of reality.
• Shattered a hole into two realities.
• Stated by Adam Warlock to be one of the most physically powerful beings in the universe.
• Early in his career, managed to block the explosion of a Life-Bomb, a blast with enough energy to destroy 1/5th of the universe, though died in the process.
• Stated he can crumble a galaxy away and lay waste to the cosmos.
• Mjolnir contains a cosmic storm named the God Tempest, large as a galaxy, powerful enough to extinguish stars and shake black holes.
  • Even Odin wasn’t powerful enough to permanently put the Tempest down.
  • According to Jane, even the Phoenix Force is scared of the God Tempest.
• Shook the stars when he wielded two Mjolnir’s.
• Superior to Thunderstrike, whose clash with another Thor creates more energy than the Big Bang, sending the energy across infinite planes of reality.
• Comparable to Hercules, who briefly bore Atlas’ celestial burden and held up the weight of the heavens.
  • Atlas literally holds the universe.
• Thor has withstood and overpowered infinitely increased gravity
• Tanks blast from the Casket of Ancient Winters, which can freeze Hel from Asgard in a fairly short time
• Surtur intended to destroy all of Asgard and then the universe, Thor takes the hit
• Thor’s God-Blast can:
  • Prove to be a threat to a hungry Galactus.
  • K.O. Ego the Living Planet.
  • "Rip the fabric of the universe", banishing Ymir and Surtur to another dimension.
  • One-shot Zelia, who had twice the strength and power of Odin.
• (Odinforce) Broke the shield of Captain America.
• (Odinforce) Defeated Hulk and Thing while his power was temporarily suppressed.
• (Odinforce) Knocked back Phoenix Force Echo, physically sent The Dark Phoenix flying out of Asgard and effortlessly defeated Phoenix Force Moon Knight.
  • He was considered one of the top people in the Marvel Universe who had the capable power to kill the Phoenix Force by the Super Celestial Computer.
• (Odinforce) Fought on equal footing with Surtur before defeating him.
  • Surtur is equal in power to Odin.
  • Surtur is capable of destroying all of Asgard and universes.
• (Odinforce) His current self is comparable to Old King Thor who:
  • Traded blows with Galactus.
  • Released all of his remaining power to defeat Necroverse Gorr who had used All-Black the Necrosword to fuse with all creation.
  • Old King Thor held up all creation to save everything from falling into Oblivion.
    • Jason Aaron confirmed this crisis was on a multiversal scale.

Odin

• Is superior to both Hela and Mephisto whose war could cause omniversal armageddon, even surpassing that of Ragnarok.
• Shook the Infinite Embassy in a fight with Zeus, a structure created by the Living Tribunal that exists above infinite dimensions.
• In his fight with Surtur shook all nine realms in Asgard.
• Is able to nullify Surtur’s mortal flames which was burning through the nine realms of Asgard and would have eventually engulfed the entire multiverse.

Hulk

• Held together a planet’s tectonic plates
• Performed a Fastball Special with Colossus, destroying the Triskellion from the Ultimate Marvel universe
• Destroyed a meteor twice the size of Earth
• Fighting Red Hulk causes earthquakes across the planet
• Mere footsteps as Worldbreaker could level entire cities
• Has destroyed Nightcrawler's universe
• Battled Nightmare in his dimension and rendered it asunder to such a degree as to cause nightmares to cease
• Punches through the time storm
• Channeled energy that would destroy two universes when split from Banner
• Channeled enough energy from an alternate universe that can destroy a universe when split from Banner
• His Thunderclap sent shockwaves across an infinite number of dimensions
• His clash with another Hulk causes seismological activity all over the planet
• Stalemated the Sentry (WOG confirms Sentry wasn't holding back, as does the story)
  • Sentry and Genis’s explosive fight in the microverse is said to be able to shred entire worlds as both are capable of planet busting, atoms are at least the size of Solar Systems in the microverse, likely universe sized (1000x universes, possibly 578 octillion x universes)
• Physically contends with Gladiator and defeated him,who can rattle every bone in the universe from hitting Galactus
• Shattered the time barrier
• Generates enough force to power the shield that was able to stop the planet-destroying force of Exitar's feet temporarily
• The collision of his physical blows against an amped Red She-Hulk which vaporized a whole planet in the Dark Dimension
• A suppressed Green Scar survived absorbing the power of Pandora’s box
• When possessed by the One Below All, was able to kill both Franklin Richards and Galactus, as well as absorb Metatron, the Sentience of the Eighth Omniverse, to become the Breaker of Worlds
• Breaker of Worlds destroyed all planets and extinguished all stars in the universe
• Him and Umar's sex was so strong it sent shockwaves and bent reality across the multiverse to where the Silver Surfer knew something was wrong
• Devil Hulk shatters a shard that contains Nyx’s power; for comparison, a weakened Nyx with no shards killed Zeus
• Devil Hulk forced a nerfed version of The One Below All to retreat (fully explained here)

 

[Antvasima]

There are some 3-A and High 3-A feats there, but you shouldn't publicly reveal Jason Aaron's email address. It is best if you replace that image with one where it has been hidden.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

There are some 3-A and High 3-A feats there, but you shouldn't publicly reveal Jason Aaron's email address. It is best if you replace that image with one where it has been hidden.

Okay, when I found that screenshot (it's not mine), I didn't realize that. I've replaced the image.

 

[Eseseso]

Thor

• An infant Thor’s crying summoned a storm more fierce and powerful than any god had ever remembered up until that point, enough to rattle all of Asgard itself.
• Shattered a hole into two realities.
• Superior to Thunderstrike, whose clash with another Thor creates more energy than the Big Bang, sending the energy across infinite planes of reality.

• Comparable to Hercules, who briefly bore Atlas’ celestial burden and held up the weight of the heavens.
  • Atlas literally holds the universe.
• Thor has withstood and overpowered infinitely increased gravity

Good Infinite LS feats

• Surtur intended to destroy all of Asgard and then the universe, Thor takes the hit

• (Odinforce) His current self is comparable to Old King Thor who:
  • Traded blows with Galactus.
  • Released all of his remaining power to defeat Necroverse Gorr who had used All-Black the Necrosword to fuse with all creation.
  • Old King Thor held up all creation to save everything from falling into Oblivion.
    • Jason Aaron confirmed this crisis was on a multiversal scale.

We really do need to upgrade Old King Thor btw, he is NOT 2-C.

Hulk

• Has destroyed Nightcrawler's universe
• Battled Nightmare in his dimension and rendered it asunder to such a degree as to cause nightmares to cease
• Punches through the time storm
• Channeled energy that would destroy two universes when split from Banner
• His Thunderclap sent shockwaves across an infinite number of dimensions
• Shattered the time barrier
• When possessed by the One Below All, was able to kill both Franklin Richards and Galactus, as well as absorb Metatron, the Sentience of the Eighth Omniverse, to become the Breaker of Worlds
• Him and Umar's sex was so strong it sent shockwaves and bent reality across the multiverse to where the Silver Surfer knew something was wrong
• Devil Hulk shatters a shard that contains Nyx’s power; for comparison, a weakened Nyx with no shards killed Zeus
• Devil Hulk forced a nerfed version of The One Below All to retreat (fully explained here)

I cut and bolded all the feats which I think are the best, for further analysis.

Thanks a lot for compiling these, Lawyer.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Good Infinite LS feats



We really do need to upgrade Old King Thor btw, he is NOT 2-C.


I cut and bolded all the feats which I think are the best, for further analysis.

Thanks a lot for compiling these, Lawyer.

There’s also this feat for hickmans hyperion

Spoiler

 

[Gasper]

There’s also this feat for hickmans hyperion

Spoiler

Outlier

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Outlier

How? His constantly shown comparable to likes of Thor and hulk

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Withstanding an Incursion is a Low 1-A feat, so that’s considered an outlier.

 

[Gasper]

How? His constantly shown comparable to likes of Thor and hulk

What Maverik said.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Withstanding an Incursion is a Low 1-A feat, so that’s considered an outlier.

How? It’s just two universes smashing against each other and exploding

 

[Excellence616]

I compiled a list of all the feats I know about for Marvel heralds. However, I haven't had time to figure out the sourcing yet, and I don't know which ones are reliable enough to use.
Thor

• An infant Thor’s crying summoned a storm more fierce and powerful than any god had ever remembered up until that point, enough to rattle all of Asgard itself.
• Created a universe shaking thermo-blast.
• Pulled the Midgard Serpent away from Earth at high speeds; the Midgard Serpent extended all the way from Earth to Asgard.
• Shattered a small portion of reality.
• Shattered a hole into two realities.
• Stated by Adam Warlock to be one of the most physically powerful beings in the universe.
• Early in his career, managed to block the explosion of a Life-Bomb, a blast with enough energy to destroy 1/5th of the universe, though died in the process.
• Stated he can crumble a galaxy away and lay waste to the cosmos.
• Mjolnir contains a cosmic storm named the God Tempest, large as a galaxy, powerful enough to extinguish stars and shake black holes.
  • Even Odin wasn’t powerful enough to permanently put the Tempest down.
  • According to Jane, even the Phoenix Force is scared of the God Tempest.
• Superior to Thunderstrike, whose clash with another Thor creates more energy than the Big Bang, sending the energy across infinite planes of reality.
• Comparable to Hercules, who briefly bore Atlas’ celestial burden and held up the weight of the heavens.
  • Atlas literally holds the universe.
• Thor has withstood and overpowered infinitely increased gravity
• Tanks blast from the Casket of Ancient Winters, which can freeze Hel from Asgard in a fairly short time
• Surtur intended to destroy all of Asgard and then the universe, Thor takes the hit
• Thor’s God-Blast can:
  • Prove to be a threat to a hungry Galactus.
  • K.O. Ego the Living Planet.
  • "Rip the fabric of the universe", banishing Ymir and Surtur to another dimension.
  • One-shot Zelia, who had twice the strength and power of Odin.
• (Odinforce) Broke the shield of Captain America.
• (Odinforce) Defeated Hulk and Thing while his power was temporarily suppressed.
• (Odinforce) Knocked back Phoenix Force Echo, physically sent The Dark Phoenix flying out of Asgard and effortlessly defeated Phoenix Force Moon Knight.
  • He was considered one of the top people in the Marvel Universe who had the capable power to kill the Phoenix Force by the Super Celestial Computer.
• (Odinforce) Fought on equal footing with Surtur before defeating him.
  • Surtur is equal in power to Odin.
  • Surtur is capable of destroying all of Asgard and universes.
• (Odinforce) His current self is comparable to Old King Thor who:
  • Traded blows with Galactus.
  • Released all of his remaining power to defeat Necroverse Gorr who had used All-Black the Necrosword to fuse with all creation.
  • Old King Thor held up all creation to save everything from falling into Oblivion.
    • Jason Aaron confirmed this crisis was on a multiversal scale.

Odin

• Is superior to both Hela and Mephisto whose war could cause omniversal armageddon, even surpassing that of Ragnarok.
• Shook the Infinite Embassy in a fight with Zeus, a structure created by the Living Tribunal that exists above infinite dimensions.
• In his fight with Surtur shook all nine realms in Asgard.
• Is able to nullify Surtur’s mortal flames which was burning through the nine realms of Asgard and would have eventually engulfed the entire multiverse.

Hulk

• Has destroyed Nightcrawler's universe
• Battled Nightmare in his dimension and rendered it asunder to such a degree as to cause nightmares to cease
• Punches through the time storm
• Channeled energy that would destroy two universes when split from Banner
• Channeled enough energy from an alternate universe that can destroy a universe when split from Banner
• His Thunderclap sent shockwaves across an infinite number of dimensions
• Stalemated the Sentry (WOG confirms Sentry wasn't holding back, as does the story)
  • Sentry and Genis’s explosive fight in the microverse is said to be able to shred entire worlds as both are capable of planet busting, atoms are at least the size of Solar Systems in the microverse, likely universe sized (1000x universes, possibly 578 octillion x universes)
• Physically contends with Gladiator and defeated him,who can rattle every bone in the universe from hitting Galactus

• Shattered the time barrier

This is unquantifiable. This is resistance to time

• Generates enough force to power the shield that was able to stop the planet-destroying force of Exitar's feet temporarily
• The collision of his physical blows against an amped Red She-Hulk which vaporized a whole planet in the Dark Dimension
• A suppressed Green Scar survived absorbing the power of Pandora’s box

• When possessed by the One Below All, was able to kill both Franklin Richards and Galactus, as well as absorb Metatron, the Sentience of the Eighth Omniverse, to become the Breaker of Worlds
• Breaker of Worlds destroyed all planets and extinguished all stars in the universe

This feat can't be used. This is a feat for The One Below All not Hulk except if we are giving Hulk another Key.

• Him and Umar's sex was so strong it sent shockwaves and bent reality across the multiverse to where the Silver Surfer knew something was wrong
• Devil Hulk shatters a shard that contains Nyx’s power; for comparison, a weakened Nyx with no shards killed Zeus
• Devil Hulk forced a nerfed version of The One Below All to retreat (fully explained here)

I remove some of the feats that i think falls under Heralds 5-B and 3-C tier that they already have.

 

[Gasper]

How? It’s just two universes smashing against each other and exploding

It's not, it's two eternities.

 

[Hasty12345]

Shouldn't this discussion happen in the next thread??

 

[Gasper]

Shouldn't this discussion happen in the next thread??

Ultima said we should discuss heralds somewhat for Galactus scaling.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

It's not, it's two eternities.

What do you mean?

 

[Gasper]

What do you mean?

These universes have designation numbers which means they are baseline universes or the original realities.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Seems like most of the feats gathered fall under High 3-A, so I’d go with that for now.

I assume everyone here is fine with this? If so, I'll edit Galactus' profile accordingly when I get the time. Afterwards It's preferable that people refrain from commenting further here (Unless it's for something important) until I post the remaining revised profiles and then call it a wrap.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I assume everyone here is fine with this? If so, I'll edit Galactus' profile accordingly when I get the time. Afterwards It's preferable that people refrain from commenting further here (Unless it's for something important) until I post the remaining revised profiles and then call it a wrap.

There's still some 2-C stuff in my list, I believe, though I don't have time to discuss right now.