Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

[LuciferX]

I just revised the points.

 

[ByAsura]

And none of the revisions affect the argument overall.

 

[LuciferX]

There are two possibilities, Like Ultima said, Beyonder's dimensionality could be same now. but on the other hand, it could be wrong due to retcons in story.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

If your entire reason for leaning towards it having been retconned is based on the pocket universe thing, then that's just an invalid point to begin with. So, again, don't think any further repetition is necessary here.

 

[LuciferX]

I don't see how it's invalid, but fine.

 

[Antvasima]

After Asgard was called a pocket dimension that contains most of the 9 realms on a single, eponymous continent, I basically learned to never trust the handbooks again when it comes to Marvel's cosmology.

They also said that Odin is not even planetary in scale, that Galactus is barely planetary, that the Silver Surfer is city level, that Thor can only lift 95 tons, that the cosmic cube Beyonder only created a duplicate of the Earth and its Sun, and that it may have been illusory, and that Dormammu never held his own against Eternity, among many other blatant deliberate lies.

 

[Antvasima]

As for the pre-retcon Beyonder, I think that we should publicly acknowledge the difference in some manner, given that he used to be explicitly stated to be millions of times more powerful than the entire Marvel multiverse and all of the cosmic entities within it combined. Cherry-picking which of the statements about him that we can use for his post-retcon incarnations or not seems erroneous and slightly disingenuous.

 

[Eseseso]

Btw, didn't just 5 Cosmic cubes render Eternity catatonic?

Also, what will well-fed Galactus scale to?

And Marvel Comics are gonna have the best mind-hax possible once this CRT is done, since all the top mindhax people scale to Strange, who beat Umar in a telepathy battle.

 

[Antvasima]

Btw, didn't just 5 Cosmic cubes render Eternity catatonic?

Yes, but that was in Jim Starlin's personal egocentric cosmology.

And Marvel Comics are gonna have the best mind-hax possible once this CRT is done, since all the top mindhax people scale to Strange, who beat Umar in a telepathy battle.

Do you mean the time he beat Moondragon in a telepathic battle?

 

[Eseseso]

Yes, but that was in Jim Starlin's personal egocentric cosmology.

OOF.

Do you mean the time he beat Moondragon in a telepathic battle?

From what I've gathered, the mind-scaling in Marvel Comics for the top tiers goes like this:

Doctor Strange beat Umar (who was at her peak due being in the Dark Dimension) in a mind battle. He also mind-haxxed well-fed Galactus, but a well-fed Galactus is "only" 4D (at least until this CRT gets implemented).

Moondragon matched Doctor Strange.

Xavier is apparently superior to Moondragon, and Emma Frost as well as Onslaught are comparable to Xavier.

So anyone who scales in mind-hax to Xavier, Moondragon, Emma Frost, and/or Onslaught has tier 1 mindhax. Asides from any personal feats they might have on that level, of course.

 

[ByAsura]

Cosmic Cubes vary in terms of strength. It's implied even weak ones can kill Stranger, though.

Tbf, Starlin is quite particular.

 

[Antvasima]

Moondragon broke through Galactus' mind-shields for Thanos, which Xavier has explicitly been unable to do on two different occasions, and Strange explicitly beat Moondragon, although it took a while.

 

[Eseseso]

Moondragon broke through Galactus' mind-shields for Thanos,

Just curious, how strong is Thanos's mind-hax?

which Xavier has explicitly been unable to do on two different occasions, and Strange explicitly beat Moondragon, although it took a while.

That should still make Moondragon comparable to Strange. I saw the mind-fight, they were going blow-for-blow, and Strange IIRC collapsed from the effort needed to beat her.

Though other people still have their own mindhax feats on that abstract, like Doom mindhaxing Phoenix Force Rachel Summers and putting her in an infinite time-loop hologram.

Or Xavier mind-dueling either the Phoenix Force itself or Dark Phoenix IIRC.

And I just want to clarify that this is just what I've seen used in other threads, as well as asking others about the tier 1 mind-hax scaling (such as when I asked @The_Impress about how Doom has tier mindhax and he said that Doom chainscales from Strange mindhaxxing Umar).

Also, Xavier helped Thanos, who IIRC is comparable to Moon dragon, as well as Adam Warlock mentally fight a Cosmic Egg amped Goddess, who should be tier 1 once this CRT is accepted via Cosmic Cube scaling.

Also shows that Xavier is comparable to Thanos who IIRC as I said above is apparently comparable to Moondragon. And Xavier also casually put Thor to sleep, and Thor resisted Moondragon's mindhax.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Btw, didn't just 5 Cosmic cubes render Eternity catatonic?

Also, what will well-fed Galactus scale to?

They did, yeah, but Cosmic Cubes vary pretty heavily in power, since the endpoint of their evolution is to mature into a Beyonder. That, and Eternity's M-Bodies can also be pretty variable.

Well-Fed Galactus would just scale to High 1-B based on scaling to the Celestials and the Cosmic Cubes.

As for the pre-retcon Beyonder, I think that we should publicly acknowledge the difference in some manner, given that he used to be explicitly stated to be millions of times more powerful than the entire Marvel multiverse and all of the cosmic entities within it combined. Cherry-picking which of the statements about him that we can use for his post-retcon incarnations or not seems erroneous and slightly disingenuous.

That sounds pretty pointless, given that, if we divide him in "Pre-Retcon" and "Post-Retcon" profiles, the former will only be able to scale to things established during and before the publication of Secret Wars II. So that's a lot of cosmology developments that he'd ultimately be ignored in and as such not be able to scale to. At that point we'd just have two basically identical profiles for what's essentially the same character, as I said before.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant that we can probably not use the pre-retcon statement about the Beyonder being infinite-dimensional for his post-retcon self.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That sounds pretty flimsy to me, for the reasons said above. It'd be one thing if the comic made a direct correlation between his infinite dimensionality and his size compared to the Marvel Multiverse (As in, "He is immensely larger than the multiverse because he is infinite-dimensional," or something of that sort), but that doesn't really happen. He is mentioned to be larger than the multiverse, and then he is also described as infinite-dimensional, and those two traits are never linked to each other. So the former having been retconned doesn't mean the latter was.

 

[Antvasima]

It was one of the most explicit statements that were intended to describe his scale of power in relation to everything else, much like the oft-repeated "a universe is just a drop of water compared to the Beyond Realm", so to me it seems flimsy to include some parts but not others, rather than strictly go by what was established after Tom DeFalco decided to retcon The Beyonder out of hatred for the character.

 

[Udlmaster]

Cool, but again the actual comics say that both The Beyonder and the womb-space are infinite, so I really couldn't care less what the handbooks have to say.

Heh... Marvel handbooks (and other info products) are famously wrong.

One that comes to mind is the X-Men one where they made cards with "Did you know?" and so on facts like that "Due to a magical spell, the X-Men are undetectable by any kind of electronic equipment and cannot be photographed!" On the back of this nice little card? A photograph of the entire X-Men team (can't make this shit up) including incorrect members of the team (including ones either dead, not there at the time and more). It's more funny at the time too given that Nimrod (a robot) was their main enemy during the late 80s, early 90s run.

These facts were completely wrong and the writers for them just said "Yeah, we didn't want to read all the stories for them so we just made stuff up"

Under my own proposed idea of the Hierarchy of Canon for Marvel, Handbooks would be supplementary material used only to add more credence to an extant argument rather than being the major example of a counter argument.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It was one of the most explicit statements that were intended to describe his scale of power in relation to everything else, much like the oft-repeated "a universe is just a drop of water compared to the Beyond Realm", so to me it seems flimsy to include some parts but not others, rather than strictly go by what was established after Tom DeFalco decided to retcon The Beyonder out of hatred for the character.

Not really, no, it was a random factoid about the Beyonder that we're given when he first decides to stick to a fully human form. As said up there, if it went like "This multiverse has [insert finite number here] dimensions, while he has infinite," that'd be a valid point, but that's not what the comic says. All it says is "Physical? Having but three dimensions, instead of an infinite number? Such a thing was unknown to him." So if you want to go down that route, the statement was intending to describe his scale in relation to 3-dimensional beings alone, not in relation to everything and everyone else.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we will likely end up with the same end result for the tiering, but I still think that the pre-retcon and post-retcon continuities should preferably be separated. I will likely get outvoted though.

 

[Executor_N0]

I wanted to say this before, but the thread just got outside of this topic, but since someone mentioned it again, I think it's important to also think about how fluid the cosmology of the Marvel universe/multiverse is.

One of the most basic elements of the history of the universe is exactly the presence of basically all kinds of mythological beings that were created by the collective minds of beings across the universe to explain natural phenomena, those would become "outdated" as science is developed, but this didn't make the myths "cease to exist" as a whole. It's not like Thor or Zeus stopped existing when the explanation about how thunders and lightning happen turned into particle science. Instead, the universe grows as people try to understand it and that is becoming a very common way to explain how mythical beings exist.

In many ways that reflect how just different writers will have different perspectives of cosmology depending on what they are going to value it. Take for example when the micro verse is explained as just another reality that you can get into by shrinking more than a Planck length until you get to the other universe with normal size. It's a very sciencey explanation and a way that there are not "worlds within worlds", just "worlds side by side", but at the same time, we have the talk of "worlds within worlds" being said by mystical beings, even by Dormammu as he's about to remake all of existence.

The truth is, Marvel's cosmology is fluid. It is, in-universe, anything the person that is thinking thinks it is as their thoughts, ideas, and myths can reshape reality. Depending on the writer that is writing the comic, the scope of the universe can be very small and self-contained, take for example this interview with Al Ewing where he gives the scope of his last Guardians of the Galaxy work talking about the difference between "space" and "cosmic".

Ewing: It’s tricky, because at a certain point it does come down to drawing the lines. Like, Galactus…if he’s having a chat with Eternity it’s Marvel Cosmic. Or if you look at him from the human point of view, it’s Marvel Space. And I can see how it all connects, and I can see how people would want it all to be one thing. But from a writing perspective, it’s just impossible. It’s such a broad church that I prefer to break it down a little.

Rabiroff: So does that become a challenge to you at all, in terms of what kinds of stories can interact with each other? Because when we’re talking about something that’s supposed to be one universe after all…

Ewing: You know, one type of story will turn into another type of story. But it’s like, with something like Guardians [of the Galaxy], I thought I was going to have some fun with the Master of the Sun. But I didn’t go into it thinking, “okay, this is going to be one of the books where I get to do fun stuff with Eternity and Order and Chaos and all of the big Starlin people, or make up my own big Starlin people)– which is much more what Defenders is. And we can go to those places if we like, if the story takes us there. I definitely don’t treat the original Master of the Sun as an actual guy, I treat him as a sort of personification in the Starlin mode, so he’s always sort of off to the side in memories or in dreams, and not really being part of things. But 99% of my Guardians run takes place in space: places you can go if you have a spaceship. I feel like if you’re chatting with Eternity, that takes more than a spaceship. You need Quantum Bands or something. Space is a place. Cosmic is a state of being.
[...]
Ewing: So, I have never played Risk. A horrible thing for me to admit. I do have an intact copy of Risk Legacy that at some point I will get time to play. But no: I cheated. I said, “well, they’re the Guardians of the Galaxy. There’s one galaxy.” I don’t care what anybody said before, I don’t care what anybody says after: for the purposes of this book, there’s one galaxy, and if people complain, we’ll shrug and say, “well, there’s always been one galaxy. You must have imagined all those other stories.” But, yeah, no: it’s cheating. I feel like at this point, I’m allowed to completely ignore continuity. I have paid homage to it enough. I am allowed to completely ignore it to make my life easier.

And at the time when it comes to his other project, Defenders Beyond, he went with a totally different perspective to make everything make sense together and even say that there are no retcons at all, there have been fun coincidences over the way that made his work easier, but still is just a compilation of everything that came before connecting the dots
.
So, just like you have different myths and theories to answer the same thing, just like you can have characters appear when it makes no sense for them to appear, the world of Marvel is fluid and can fit all the contradictory views of cosmology at the same time.

So in regard to what might happen, the truth is that most cosmologies can coexist as part of a hierarchy, and what scope of the cosmology is being adopted in any given work is dependent on what we know from those works. Sometimes they might explain the multiverse as just a collection of parallel worlds without going to the scope of each universe, but at the same time, you can have a single universe having many layers to it with each layer transcending the one before. Sometimes the scope is just space, other times it's cosmic.

If anything, it has become a bit common for some works to start to explain those contradictions as all part of the same thing and yet divided, so they can coexist when necessary, but be their own thing when it isn't needed. Marvel does just like that. If, as that other user said, there are moments when these planes of existence are called just "pocket universes" that are defined in the guidebook as just finite, at the same time you need to understand that the marvels handbooks have a long history of trying to tie everything to some kind of down-to-earth scientific explanation that goes against most of the mystical side of it (In fact, even the mystic guidebooks tend to downplay the scope of that mystic side when it comes to talking about parallel universes, even when we have mystical planes whose entire role is to eat other universes). And then when you look into how those planes are described in their own proper comic books, their description far surpasses what is being said in the handbook. It's because one has a more limited perspective while the other is bigger in scope, and both can coexsit as a part of the other.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I wanted to say this before, but the thread just got outside of this topic, but since someone mentioned it again, I think it's important to also think about how fluid the cosmology of the Marvel universe/multiverse is.

One of the most basic elements of the history of the universe is exactly the presence of basically all kinds of mythological beings that were created by the collective minds of beings across the universe to explain natural phenomena, those would become "outdated" as science is developed, but this didn't make the myths "cease to exist" as a whole. It's not like Thor or Zeus stopped existing when the explanation about how thunders and lightning happen turned into particle science. Instead, the universe grows as people try to understand it and that is becoming a very common way to explain how mythical beings exist.

In many ways that reflect how just different writers will have different perspectives of cosmology depending on what they are going to value it. Take for example when the micro verse is explained as just another reality that you can get into by shrinking more than a Planck length until you get to the other universe with normal size. It's a very sciencey explanation and a way that there are not "worlds within worlds", just "worlds side by side", but at the same time, we have the talk of "worlds within worlds" being said by mystical beings, even by Dormammu as he's about to remake all of existence.

The truth is, Marvel's cosmology is fluid. It is, in-universe, anything the person that is thinking thinks it is as their thoughts, ideas, and myths can reshape reality. Depending on the writer that is writing the comic, the scope of the universe can be very small and self-contained, take for example this interview with Al Ewing where he gives the scope of his last Guardians of the Galaxy work talking about the difference between "space" and "cosmic".

Ewing: It’s tricky, because at a certain point it does come down to drawing the lines. Like, Galactus…if he’s having a chat with Eternity it’s Marvel Cosmic. Or if you look at him from the human point of view, it’s Marvel Space. And I can see how it all connects, and I can see how people would want it all to be one thing. But from a writing perspective, it’s just impossible. It’s such a broad church that I prefer to break it down a little.

Rabiroff: So does that become a challenge to you at all, in terms of what kinds of stories can interact with each other? Because when we’re talking about something that’s supposed to be one universe after all…

Ewing: You know, one type of story will turn into another type of story. But it’s like, with something like Guardians [of the Galaxy], I thought I was going to have some fun with the Master of the Sun. But I didn’t go into it thinking, “okay, this is going to be one of the books where I get to do fun stuff with Eternity and Order and Chaos and all of the big Starlin people, or make up my own big Starlin people)– which is much more what Defenders is. And we can go to those places if we like, if the story takes us there. I definitely don’t treat the original Master of the Sun as an actual guy, I treat him as a sort of personification in the Starlin mode, so he’s always sort of off to the side in memories or in dreams, and not really being part of things. But 99% of my Guardians run takes place in space: places you can go if you have a spaceship. I feel like if you’re chatting with Eternity, that takes more than a spaceship. You need Quantum Bands or something. Space is a place. Cosmic is a state of being.
[...]
Ewing: So, I have never played Risk. A horrible thing for me to admit. I do have an intact copy of Risk Legacy that at some point I will get time to play. But no: I cheated. I said, “well, they’re the Guardians of the Galaxy. There’s one galaxy.” I don’t care what anybody said before, I don’t care what anybody says after: for the purposes of this book, there’s one galaxy, and if people complain, we’ll shrug and say, “well, there’s always been one galaxy. You must have imagined all those other stories.” But, yeah, no: it’s cheating. I feel like at this point, I’m allowed to completely ignore continuity. I have paid homage to it enough. I am allowed to completely ignore it to make my life easier.

And at the time when it comes to his other project, Defenders Beyond, he went with a totally different perspective to make everything make sense together and even say that there are no retcons at all, there have been fun coincidences over the way that made his work easier, but still is just a compilation of everything that came before connecting the dots
.
So, just like you have different myths and theories to answer the same thing, just like you can have characters appear when it makes no sense for them to appear, the world of Marvel is fluid and can fit all the contradictory views of cosmology at the same time.

So in regard to what might happen, the truth is that most cosmologies can coexist as part of a hierarchy, and what scope of the cosmology is being adopted in any given work is dependent on what we know from those works. Sometimes they might explain the multiverse as just a collection of parallel worlds without going to the scope of each universe, but at the same time, you can have a single universe having many layers to it with each layer transcending the one before. Sometimes the scope is just space, other times it's cosmic.

If anything, it has become a bit common for some works to start to explain those contradictions as all part of the same thing and yet divided, so they can coexist when necessary, but be their own thing when it isn't needed. Marvel does just like that. If, as that other user said, there are moments when these planes of existence are called just "pocket universes" that are defined in the guidebook as just finite, at the same time you need to understand that the marvels handbooks have a long history of trying to tie everything to some kind of down-to-earth scientific explanation that goes against most of the mystical side of it (In fact, even the mystic guidebooks tend to downplay the scope of that mystic side when it comes to talking about parallel universes, even when we have mystical planes whose entire role is to eat other universes). And then when you look into how those planes are described in their own proper comic books, their description far surpasses what is being said in the handbook. It's because one has a more limited perspective while the other is bigger in scope, and both can coexsit as a part of the other.

The malleable nature of Marvel's Cosmology is actually something I plan to cover pretty extensively in the second part of these revisions. Nice that you gave a prelude in here already, though. Props.

 

[Eseseso]

The malleable nature of Marvel's Cosmology is actually something I plan to cover pretty extensively in the second part of these revisions. Nice that you gave a prelude in here already, though. Props.

Will you also cover P&A during some part of these revisions?

Because some of them (like Dormammu and Uatu) are ridiculously barren.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Will you also cover P&A during some part of these revisions?

Because some of them (like Dormammu and Uatu) are ridiculously barren.

Like I said in the OP, I'm dealing with the tiering first. I'll fix up... everything else in a Part 2.5 I have planned up.

 

[Eseseso]

Like I said in the OP, I'm dealing with the tiering first. I'll fix up... everything else in a Part 2.5 I have planned up.

Got it.

Maybe we could make a list of everyone who scales to a certain tier?

For example, who scales to Low 1-A, who scales to only High 1-B, etc.

Also, how do starving and moderately fed Galactus scale?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Got it.

Maybe we could make a list of everyone who scales to a certain tier?

For example, who scales to Low 1-A, who scales to only High 1-B, etc.

Also, how do starving and moderately fed Galactus scale?

I did one a while ago. Though it's still just a rough draft:

Incomplete Cosmic Cube = High 1-B (Described as an infinite-dimensional entity. Newborn Cosmic Cubes in general are stated to be of an omni-dimensional nature)

Complete Cosmic Cube* = At least High 1-B (Kubik stomped the Beyonder, and described himself as transacting in levels unimaginable to him. Kosmos is portrayed as being his equal, and later on, an enraged Molecule Man who had achieved power equal to Kubik boasted to the Beyonder that he operated on "infinities beyond his narrow perception")

(*Cosmic Cubes and especially Cosmic Cube entities, being simply larval Beyonders, are heavily variable in power, due to the broad spectrum of evolution that they by necessity undergo. As such, Kubik and Kosmos are being taken as a minimum for how powerful Cosmic Cubes generally are, but they are not necessarily to be taken as capstones for that)

Celestials = At least High 1-B (Kubik states that his and Kosmos' powers are as nothing compared to the Celestials)

Well-Fed Galactus = At least High 1-B (Could do battle with the Mad Celestials, forcing them to merge in order to take care of him)

In-Betweener = High 1-B (Stalemated a well-fed Galactus) to Low 1-A (Can manifest on the same plane of eixstence as Eternity and the higher Abstracts if needed)

Eternity = Low 1-A (Certain manifestation bodies of his can be as low as High 1-B, as seen in Secret Wars II, where he made himself weaker than even the Beyonder. However, that was deliberate on Eternity's part, and he doesn't usually operate on levels of power that low)

Infinity = Low 1-A (She is Eternity's sister-self and ontologically the same being as him)

Lord Chaos and Master Order = Low 1-A (Scaling off Eternity. Though they are still weaker than he is)

Death = Low 1-A (The direct counterpart to Eternity in the Cosmic Compass)

Universal Oblivion = Low 1-A (Equal to Infinity)

Dormammu = Low 1-A (Considerably weaker than Eternity, though still comparable to him and able to put up something of a fight. Also helped Eternity seal away Zom in a world beyond the multiverse aeons ago)

Amped-Up Dormammu = Low 1-A (During the War of Seven Realms, his power grew to degrees that Doctor Strange described as "incalculable," to the point he didn't even need to stay in the Dark Dimension to be at full power anymore, and merging with Strange would also allow him to defeat the Goddess, who was powered by the Cosmic Egg)

Infinity Gauntlet = Low 1-A (Self-explanatory. Laughably above all of the Universal Abstracts' manifestation bodies)

 

[Eseseso]

I did one a while ago. Though it's still just a rough draft:

Incomplete Cosmic Cube = High 1-B (Described as an infinite-dimensional entity. Newborn Cosmic Cubes in general are stated to be of an omni-dimensional nature)

Complete Cosmic Cube* = At least High 1-B (Kubik stomped the Beyonder, and described himself as transacting in levels unimaginable to him. Kosmos is portrayed as being his equal, and later on, an enraged Molecule Man who had achieved power equal to Kubik boasted to the Beyonder that he operated on "infinities beyond his narrow perception")

Post-retcon Beyonder, right? Probably a dumb question but I wanna be sure.

(*Cosmic Cubes and especially Cosmic Cube entities, being simply larval Beyonders, are heavily variable in power, due to the broad spectrum of evolution that they by necessity undergo. As such, Kubik and Kosmos are being taken as a minimum for how powerful Cosmic Cubes generally are, but they are not necessarily to be taken as capstones for that)

Celestials = At least High 1-B (Kubik states that his and Kosmos' powers are as nothing compared to the Celestials)

Well-Fed Galactus = At least High 1-B (Could do battle with the Mad Celestials, forcing them to merge in order to take care of him)

So Uatu would scale to this via scaling to the Celestials?

In-Betweener = High 1-B (Stalemated a well-fed Galactus) to Low 1-A (Can manifest on the same plane of eixstence as Eternity and the higher Abstracts if needed)

Eternity = Low 1-A (Certain manifestation bodies of his can be as low as High 1-B, as seen in Secret Wars II, where he made himself weaker than even the Beyonder. However, that was deliberate on Eternity's part, and he doesn't usually operate on levels of power that low)

Infinity = Low 1-A (She is Eternity's sister-self and ontologically the same being as him)

Lord Chaos and Master Order = Low 1-A (Scaling off Eternity. Though they are still weaker than he is)

Death = Low 1-A (The direct counterpart to Eternity in the Cosmic Compass)

Universal Oblivion = Low 1-A (Equal to Infinity)

Dormammu = Low 1-A (Considerably weaker than Eternity, though still comparable to him and able to put up something of a fight. Also helped Eternity seal away Zom in a world beyond the multiverse aeons ago)

Amped-Up Dormammu = Low 1-A (During the War of Seven Realms, his power grew to degrees that Doctor Strange described as "incalculable," to the point he didn't even need to stay in the Dark Dimension to be at full power anymore, and merging with Strange would also allow him to defeat the Goddess, who was powered by the Cosmic Egg)

So will he get a third key?

Also, an amped-up Dormammu only wanted to merge with Strange because he himself wasn't back to full power yet.

Infinity Gauntlet = Low 1-A (Self-explanatory. Laughably above all of the Universal Abstracts' manifestation bodies)

Asides from my comments above, everything looks great!

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Post-retcon Beyonder, right? Probably a dumb question but I wanna be sure.

Yeah. My plan right now is to yeet "Pre-Retcon Beyonder" entirely, so, every time the Beyonder comes up in scaling, think of the post-retcon one.

So Uatu would scale to this via scaling to the Celestials?

He would, yes. Although ByAsura said he plans to downgrade the Watchers up there, so, let's see what he has to say, I suppose.

So will he get a third key?

Also, an amped-up Dormammu only wanted to merge with Strange because he himself wasn't back to full power yet.

He will, yeah. War of Seven Spheres Dormammu is way, way above regular Dormammu. I don't remember the Strange merging thing too clearly, so, I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah. My plan right now is to yeet "Pre-Retcon Beyonder" entirely, so, every time the Beyonder comes up in scaling, think of the post-retcon one.

Got it.

He would, yes. Although ByAsura said he plans to downgrade the Watchers up there, so, let's see what he has to say, I suppose.

I disagree with downgrading them from Celestial level to tier 2-C or whatnot, but I'll wait to see what he says.

He will, yeah. War of Seven Spheres Dormammu is way, way above regular Dormammu.

Makes sense. Was he the Dormammu who one-shot Giraud?

I don't remember the Strange merging thing too clearly, so, I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

IIRC Dormammu said that was the main reason he wanted to merge with Strange.

I can check the comic later.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Makes sense. Was he the Dormammu who one-shot Giraud?

No, that one was the Dormammu from Earth-691. Though, as an addendum: Nevermind the bit about Dormammu not needing the Dark Dimension anymore after his amp. It seems he still did indeed.

 

[Slenderblak]

@Excel616

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

Yeah. My plan right now is to yeet "Pre-Retcon Beyonder" entirely, so, every time the Beyonder comes up in scaling, think of the post-retcon one.


He would, yes. Although ByAsura said he plans to downgrade the Watchers up there, so, let's see what he has to say, I suppose.


He will, yeah. War of Seven Spheres Dormammu is way, way above regular Dormammu. I don't remember the Strange merging thing too clearly, so, I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Technically pre retcon and post retcon are the same character

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

I did one a while ago. Though it's still just a rough draft:

Incomplete Cosmic Cube = High 1-B (Described as an infinite-dimensional entity. Newborn Cosmic Cubes in general are stated to be of an omni-dimensional nature)

Complete Cosmic Cube* = At least High 1-B (Kubik stomped the Beyonder, and described himself as transacting in levels unimaginable to him. Kosmos is portrayed as being his equal, and later on, an enraged Molecule Man who had achieved power equal to Kubik boasted to the Beyonder that he operated on "infinities beyond his narrow perception")

(*Cosmic Cubes and especially Cosmic Cube entities, being simply larval Beyonders, are heavily variable in power, due to the broad spectrum of evolution that they by necessity undergo. As such, Kubik and Kosmos are being taken as a minimum for how powerful Cosmic Cubes generally are, but they are not necessarily to be taken as capstones for that)

Celestials = At least High 1-B (Kubik states that his and Kosmos' powers are as nothing compared to the Celestials)

Well-Fed Galactus = At least High 1-B (Could do battle with the Mad Celestials, forcing them to merge in order to take care of him)

In-Betweener = High 1-B (Stalemated a well-fed Galactus) to Low 1-A (Can manifest on the same plane of eixstence as Eternity and the higher Abstracts if needed)

Eternity = Low 1-A (Certain manifestation bodies of his can be as low as High 1-B, as seen in Secret Wars II, where he made himself weaker than even the Beyonder. However, that was deliberate on Eternity's part, and he doesn't usually operate on levels of power that low)

Infinity = Low 1-A (She is Eternity's sister-self and ontologically the same being as him)

Lord Chaos and Master Order = Low 1-A (Scaling off Eternity. Though they are still weaker than he is)

Death = Low 1-A (The direct counterpart to Eternity in the Cosmic Compass)

Universal Oblivion = Low 1-A (Equal to Infinity)

Dormammu = Low 1-A (Considerably weaker than Eternity, though still comparable to him and able to put up something of a fight. Also helped Eternity seal away Zom in a world beyond the multiverse aeons ago)

Amped-Up Dormammu = Low 1-A (During the War of Seven Realms, his power grew to degrees that Doctor Strange described as "incalculable," to the point he didn't even need to stay in the Dark Dimension to be at full power anymore, and merging with Strange would also allow him to defeat the Goddess, who was powered by the Cosmic Egg)

Infinity Gauntlet = Low 1-A (Self-explanatory. Laughably above all of the Universal Abstracts' manifestation bodies)

How does this effect some other cosmics like
Stranger
Uatu
Kronos
Love and hate

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

How does this effect some other cosmics like
Stranger

Is not Stranger like God but not truely a abstract, like a character that has VIP

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

Is not Stranger like God but not truely a abstract, like a character that has VIP

Stranger is a cosmic being mainly, he's very vague

Sometimes he's an elder of the universe

 

[ByAsura]

Eternity = Low 1-A (Certain manifestation bodies of his can be as low as High 1-B, as seen in Secret Wars II, where he made himself weaker than even the Beyonder. However, that was deliberate on Eternity's part, and he doesn't usually operate on levels of power that low)

In this thread, I explained that universal aspects of Abstracts aren't actually M-Bodies, just that they work through M-Bodies that have transfinite separate versions even throughout a universe.

Maybe we can have a separate varies tier, or something like 'as low as High 1-B while operating through M-Bodies'.

As such, Kubik and Kosmos are being taken as a minimum for how powerful Cosmic Cubes generally are, but they are not necessarily to be taken as capstones for that)

I disagree with them being seen as more minimalistic Cubes, because Cubes also depend heavily on the amount of energy/where the energy comes from.

A true capstone probably comes from Avengers Assemble. This Cube was a less powerful fake that drew power from a dark matter portal, yet Maria Hill (who knew that) still called it a threat to the universe. It was able to banish the Elders of the Universe (plus a weakass version of The In-Betweener, for some reason) to the Cancerverse, and it's implied they didn't want to face Cube Thanos directly even though the cube couldn't kill them.

Celestials = At least High 1-B (Kubik states that his and Kosmos' powers are as nothing compared to the Celestials)

I actually have some more evidence for this that I've been planning for a while, and a point to make about the Protege.

When the Protege copies someone's powers, he doesn't immediately gain the same level of power. He has to copy demonstrations of power, and his abilities begin to increase geometrically from the person he's copying until he can rival them.

Protege had already copied the power of The Beyonder, dwarfed him, and copied some demonstrations from TLT himself (he definitely wasn't in the same league yet, mind you), yet a prominent 691 Celestial was able to muzzle him. This was very shortly (in non-relative terms) after 691 was no longer 616's future.

And in the Mutant X timeline, the Fifth Host were barely able to subdue the Goblin Force, which is > the universal Phoenix Force.

Well-Fed Galactus = At least High 1-B (Could do battle with the Mad Celestials, forcing them to merge in order to take care of him)

I have a lot to say about how our ratings on Galactus are very inaccurate. But I'll hold off.

It's worth noting that, while Doom with Galactus' power was beaten by the Comic Cube, it's stated various times that Galactus' power represented an appreciable portion of the strength that Doom had gained even while he had a Cosmic Cube and various other items. Even just logically, Doom wouldn't have gone after Galactus' power if it was a drop in the ocean compared to the power he already had.

And this was a somewhat hungry version of Galactus (specifically, he'd just began to become hungry again after eating a planet), whose power Doom was using (like almost exclusively, to the point where he didn't even notice the Cube was gone a bit later) to god stomp Sky Fathers.

 

[Eseseso]

In this thread, I explained that universal aspects of Abstracts aren't actually M-Bodies, just that they work through M-Bodies that have transfinite separate versions even throughout a universe.

Maybe we can have a separate varies tier, or something like 'as low as High 1-B while operating through M-Bodies'.

I disagree with them being seen as more minimalistic Cubes, because Cubes also depend heavily on the amount of energy/where the energy comes from.

A true capstone probably comes from Avengers Assemble. This Cube was a less powerful fake that drew power from a dark matter portal, yet Maria Hill (who knew that) still called it a threat to the universe. It was able to banish the Elders of the Universe (plus a weakass version of The In-Betweener, for some reason) to the Cancerverse, and it's implied they didn't want to face Cube Thanos directly even though the cube couldn't kill them.

I actually have some more evidence for this that I've been planning for a while, and a point to make about the Protege.

When the Protege copies someone's powers, he doesn't immediately gain the same level of power. He has to copy demonstrations of power, and his abilities begin to increase geometrically from the person he's copying until he can rival them.

Protege had already copied the power of The Beyonder, dwarfed him, and copied some demonstrations from TLT himself (he definitely wasn't in the same league yet, mind you), yet a prominent 691 Celestial was able to muzzle him. This was very shortly (in non-relative terms) after 691 was no longer 616's future.

Looks good.

And in the Mutant X timeline, the Fifth Host were barely able to subdue the Goblin Force, which is > the universal Phoenix Force.

I have a lot to say about how our ratings on Galactus are very inaccurate. But I'll hold off.

What do you think about tier 1 Uatu? Ultima said you had some issues with that.

It's worth noting that, while Doom with Galactus' power was beaten by the Comic Cube, it's stated various times that Galactus' power represented an appreciable portion of the strength that Doom had gained even while he had a Cosmic Cube and various other items.

And this was a somewhat hungry version of Galactus, whose power Doom was using (like almost exclusively, to the point where he didn't even notice the Cube was gone a bit later) to god stomp Sky Fathers.

Also what do you think the tiers for starving and moderately fed Galactus will be?

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

In this thread, I explained that universal aspects of Abstracts aren't actually M-Bodies, just that they work through M-Bodies that have transfinite separate versions even throughout a universe.

Maybe we can have a separate varies tier, or something like 'as low as High 1-B while operating through M-Bodies'.

I disagree with them being seen as more minimalistic Cubes, because Cubes also depend heavily on the amount of energy/where the energy comes from.

A true capstone probably comes from Avengers Assemble. This Cube was a less powerful fake that drew power from a dark matter portal, yet Maria Hill (who knew that) still called it a threat to the universe. It was able to banish the Elders of the Universe (plus a weakass version of The In-Betweener, for some reason) to the Cancerverse, and it's implied they didn't want to face Cube Thanos directly even though the cube couldn't kill them.

I actually have some more evidence for this that I've been planning for a while, and a point to make about the Protege.

When the Protege copies someone's powers, he doesn't immediately gain the same level of power. He has to copy demonstrations of power, and his abilities begin to increase geometrically from the person he's copying until he can rival them.

Protege had already copied the power of The Beyonder, dwarfed him, and copied some demonstrations from TLT himself (he definitely wasn't in the same league yet, mind you), yet a prominent 691 Celestial was able to muzzle him. This was very shortly (in non-relative terms) after 691 was no longer 616's future.

And in the Mutant X timeline, the Fifth Host were barely able to subdue the Goblin Force, which is > the universal Phoenix Force.

I have a lot to say about how our ratings on Galactus are very inaccurate. But I'll hold off.

It's worth noting that, while Doom with Galactus' power was beaten by the Comic Cube, it's stated various times that Galactus' power represented an appreciable portion of the strength that Doom had gained even while he had a Cosmic Cube and various other items. Even just logically, Doom wouldn't have gone after Galactus' power if it was a drop in the ocean compared to the power he already had.

And this was a somewhat hungry version of Galactus (specifically, he'd just began to become hungry again after eating a planet), whose power Doom was using (like almost exclusively, to the point where he didn't even notice the Cube was gone a bit later) to god stomp Sky Fathers.

How do you rate them?

Galactus I mean

 

[ByAsura]

I think The Watchers scaling to the Celestials makes no sense and has a lot of problems.

There are much more degrees of hunger that I want to get into. The profile only has three, when there's probably 6 notable ones (though I'm not saying they should be separate keys).

 

[Scathan_The_Celestial]

I think The Watchers scaling to the Celestials makes no sense and has a lot of problems.

There are much more degrees of hunger that I want to get into. The profile only has three, when there's probably at least 6 notable ones.

I think this is kinda a ok interpretation

But I personally have the watchers below the celestials