Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

[Eseseso]

It would be great and make things easier, as a really lot of characters display this power. Galactus, Silver Surfer, heralds, Watchers, Celestials, Eternity, Thor in his herald form... and so on.

What do you think Ultima? (I can't ping him so I would apreciate if somebody could do this)

Eh hehe, don't get your hopes up too much, it'll be a while before I get to the Power Cosmic stuff since I'm busy with making the page on Marvel Magic (which along with these revisions may be a smurf hax since Ultima said its potency may scale to Low 1-A Eternity).

Also, sorry for derailing, @Ultima_Reality.

Oh, and heads up for everyone, all Hell-Lords will be High 1-B in their own realms due to Mephisto in Hell matching a moderately-fed Galactus.

Dormammu outside of the Dark Dimension is stronger than 5 Hell Lords in their own realms combined, plus he could kill all Celestials, so he is minimum High 1-B. He is "possibly Low 1-A" outside of the DD due to hurting Shuma Gorath and one-shotting a Phoenix amped Giraud (who hurt Eternity) when merged with an alternate counterpart.

Inside the DD he is flat-out Low 1-A. Dude threw hands with Eternity.

With the cosmic Axis, he and Umar are High 1-A for basically killing Multi-Eternity.

This reminds me, now all mind-haxxers in Marvel on the level of Strange (who mindhaxxed Umar) and Xavier (who mind-fought the Phoenix Force itself) are Low 1-A.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I will assume we'll make the guys that exist in the same space as Eternity and the Far Shore are immediately High 1-A?

 

[Eseseso]

1. Support for the Watchers being High 1-B in their AP justification can be how when a weakened Aron the Rogue Watcher fought Uatu in Fantastic Four #400, their war spread across "A thousand planes of reality" and "The infinite rivers of reality". So the 2nd statement is blatantly 2-A while the first one is at least baseline 2-B but likely high into 1-B.

 

[Georredannea15]

4. Why aren't you working on making GoW High 1-B to 1-A in response?

Bro you want us to fight the all wiki? Sounds like fun, I'm in, Lmao.

 

[Eseseso]

Got some Hell-Lord stuff for High 1-B (NOT from me, an acquaintance on Discord provided these scans):

Mephisto's realm infinitely transcends the Universe (Doctor Strange, Triumph and Torment)

In Thunderbolts Annual 2000, all Hell-Realms are stated to be pan-dimensional, meaning connected to all dimensions. Considering there's infinite higher dimensions, could be pretty good considering Mephisto can destroy it

For support to scaling to his realm, we have this from Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection #4 Basically, he fights a king sized Adam Warlock using the power of Hades, because it is Mephisto's spirit (meaning Hell is just part of Mephisto). It's also stated they were destroying Hell later

The Galactus that Mephisto fought in Silver Surfer: Judgement Day was also capable of devouring Mephisto's realm

In Warlock Chronicles #3, it's stated Mephisto in his realm has the power of a Cosmic Cube, which will be rated H1B, so pretty decent support

It's stated in Thunderstrike #15 that w war between Mephisto and Hela would cause Omniversal Armageddon and make Ragnarok pale in comparison. While this is technically a feat for their armies as well, in Daredevil #279, Mephisto challenged every soul in his realm to fight him together, yet none dared to, so he should scale to any creature he controls.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Got some Hell-Lord stuff for High 1-B (NOT from me, an acquaintance on Discord provided these scans):

Mephisto's realm infinitely transcends the Universe (Doctor Strange, Triumph and Torment)

In Thunderbolts Annual 2000, all Hell-Realms are stated to be pan-dimensional, meaning connected to all dimensions. Considering there's infinite higher dimensions, could be pretty good considering Mephisto can destroy it

For support to scaling to his realm, we have this from Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection #4 Basically, he fights a king sized Adam Warlock using the power of Hades, because it is Mephisto's spirit (meaning Hell is just part of Mephisto). It's also stated they were destroying Hell later

The Galactus that Mephisto fought in Silver Surfer: Judgement Day was also capable of devouring Mephisto's realm

In Warlock Chronicles #3, it's stated Mephisto in his realm has the power of a Cosmic Cube, which will be rated H1B, so pretty decent support

It's stated in Thunderstrike #15 that w war between Mephisto and Hela would cause Omniversal Armageddon and make Ragnarok pale in comparison. While this is technically a feat for their armies as well, in Daredevil #279, Mephisto challenged every soul in his realm to fight him together, yet none dared to, so he should scale to any creature he controls.

There’s also this

Spoiler

 

[Theglassman12]

Gonna talk about the type 5 Acausality stuff since I'm not that knowledgeable on tier 1 marvel stuff, but where exactly does either scan mention that these entities are unchangeable because they're above cause and effect? Because I'm not seeing it unless it's some specific Marvel terminology I'm not familiar with.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Gonna talk about the type 5 Acausality stuff since I'm not that knowledgeable on tier 1 marvel stuff, but where exactly does either scan mention that these entities are unchangeable because they're above cause and effect? Because I'm not seeing it unless it's some specific Marvel terminology I'm not familiar with.

I explained it here. Basically, the White-Hot Room's flames are the force which drives any kind of change and dynamism that happens in the lower reality. It's the thing through which the very process of "X becomes Y" occurs at all.

This means whatever transcends the White-Hot Room is not subject to this process, obviously, and for the matter neither does the White-Hot Room itself, since while it's responsible for the "movement" of the cosmos, it doesn't move itself.

 

[Theglassman12]

can you post the scans that mention the white-hot room's flames control change itself, alongside whoever is above the white-hot room being rendered unchangeable as a result?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

can you post the scans that mention the white-hot room's flames control change itself

That's largely inferred from how the cosmology works. The White-Hot Room is part of a series of planes that serves as the "machinery" that keeps the omniverse running, so to speak. They're a "creation zone" whose purpose is to design existence and then manifest it (A process that comes in steps. Each succeeding step being a lower realm, with the stage where everything is finalized being then the lowest realm).

So any function they exert is going to be directed at the realms below and then at creation, but not at themselves. For example, one of the planes in the aforementioned "creation zone" is the engine room of creation, but it's obviously not its own engine room (I.e The function it exerts is directed at creation, but not towards itself). Same goes for the White-Hot Room.

 

[Kage]

(i.e Eternity surviving being erased by taking on another aspect of himself that personifies the void left after the universe's destruction).

When was this?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems like these revisions can begin to be applied after Ultima has finished with his preparations for other pages that are affected by this change, such as the Never Queen, Oblivion, and Dormammu.

I still do not think that it seems reliable to scale the Jim Starlin cosmology from other authors though, given that he tends to completely ignore them.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Full body image renders are our standard structure, especially in comparison with images that feature other characters as well, and it also fits much better for our upcoming infobox addition project.

Strictly speaking, renders tend to lose the context and majesty that a full image would otherwise have. Take our Warhammer 40k pages for example, merely cropping out the characters from those is way lamer than displaying the full image that captures the awesome figure within it.

I'm personally fine with the new Beyonder image over the render. The latter can be relegated to the gallery section if need be.

Also with regards to the revision, I'm all for it. Finally having consistent scaling is a breath of fresh air for comics.

 

[Antvasima]

Look, we cannot just suddenly ignore our standards for rendering images, and the replacement image is not even good looking, as it features The Beyonder together with Hank Pym and looking far more sinister and malevolent than he actually ever did within his comic book appearances.

It is fine if somebody finds a better image to create a render from though, just preferably not with the dumb inane handbook smile. The Beyonder very seldom actually looked like that within the stories themselves.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well, it seems like these revisions can begin to be applied after Ultima has finished with his preparations for other pages that are affected by this change, such as the Never Queen, Oblivion, and Dormammu.

I'll get to work on the Queen of Nevers and Oblivion (And the Molecule Man now that i think of it) once I've some free time. Weekend is approaching, so, shouldn't take long. I'm also starting to draft up Part 3, so, yeah, that's something on my immediate backlog as well.

When was this?

Here, from What If #43

 

[ImmortalDread]

This means whatever transcends the White-Hot Room is not subject to this process, obviously, and for the matter neither does the White-Hot Room itself, since while it's responsible for the "movement" of the cosmos, it doesn't move itself.

With all due respect, and being aware that the logical outcome of transcendence should align with the direction you are mentioning, I believe the explicit question here is: Is there any evidence for the outcome itself? This is what @Theglassman12 intended to convey in this specific sentence.

alongside whoever is above the white-hot room being rendered unchangeable as a result?

As we no longer rely on assumed results, we have essentially rejected many characters based on these similar reasons.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

With all due respect, and being aware that the logical outcome of transcendence should align with the direction you are mentioning, I believe the explicit question here is: Is there any evidence for the outcome itself? This is what @Theglassman12 intended to convey in this specific sentence.

I don't need to provide evidence for that, no. If a character transcends the process by which change occurs, then definitionally they are, themselves, unchangeable with respect to that process and things beholden to it. What you're saying right now is the equivalent of seeing a video of a person getting stabbed in the chest and asking "Do you have evidence they were harmed by that?". Or, better yet: It's like looking at a cup of water and saying "I see there is water in this cup. But what's the evidence that there is H2O in it?"

What we don't automatically give Type 5 to is statements of transcending "causality" or "cause-and-effect," to my understanding because fiction is finnicky and doesn't always associate those things with the concept of change, but things like what I just explained most definitely qualify, yes.

 

[Robo432343]

I don't need to provide evidence for that, no.

i kinda said that when arguing for lucifer aca 5 and it didn't work

 

[Ultima_Reality]

i kinda said that when arguing for lucifer aca 5 and it didn't work

Not terribly familiar with Lucifer's case, so, I can't speak for it, but given the characters which I've successfully argued into having Type 5 (And the discussion I was in, back when these standards were first applied), either his case is a different one entirely, or there was a lapse in judgement on the part of the person who analyzed it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Let me rephrase that: I believe the primary reason for rejecting many of the characters is due to the absence of evidence of outcomes (a stance I strongly disagree with, given the current standards). This is despite the fact that even if the context itself relies on the notion of cause and effect, it often culminates in Acausality type 4 (another point of disagreement, as it fundamentally aligns with baseline Acausality type 5).

Furthermore, there appears to be a misunderstanding. Why should the outcome be solely interpreted in a singular manner? What I intended to convey is: why should the outcome be viewed as unchangeable, rather than as a spectrum of different outcomes? I might appear illogical here, but this is essentially the counter-argument I consistently encounter, even if it seems absurd. We oftentimes engage in powerscaling based on our interpretation, while maintaining logical consistency within the verse.

Is there any indication of this assumed unchangeability? Or is it merely inferred due to "an appeal to common sense"? The truth is, we no longer lean heavily on this conventional logical standard for establishing such an ability.

Let's get the requirements out of the way: to qualify you need to have some statements that you're beyond causality to the point of being an unchangeable entity (essentially being unaffected by anything and everything that would affect the world in some way shape or form). Both of these are required for type 5 to be validated, as without these two, it can be taken as either a resistance to causality manipulation or type 4 Acausality or some other ability depending on the context. The same applies to the alleged acausal character being interactable by normal people, or more generally beings that have absolutely no precedent for being able to do that as that would be an anti-feat and would be one of the two mentioned prior.

These are requirements. Bear with me, none are stated on the current page (that if it does not work, it should end up lower?!), but focus on the bolded parts. You see, you have only addressed half of Acausality type 5 requirements and simply assumed that the second one should be a logical outcome of it.

Now, if the standards themselves are false or the person who is responsible on analysing all characters that have Acausality type 5 is misinterpreting it, this is an entirely different topic.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Qawsedf234

What do you think about this?

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

It would be great and make things easier, as a really lot of characters display this power. Galactus, Silver Surfer, heralds, Watchers, Celestials, Eternity, Thor in his herald form... and so on. What do you think Ultima? (I can't ping him so I would apreciate if somebody could do this) Eh...

vsbattles.com

 

[Agnaa]

I currently have 53 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Furthermore, there appears to be a misunderstanding. Why should the outcome be solely interpreted in a singular manner? What I intended to convey is: why should the outcome be viewed as unchangeable, rather than as a spectrum of different outcomes? I might appear illogical here, but this is essentially the counter-argument I consistently encounter, even if it seems absurd. We oftentimes engage in powerscaling based on our interpretation, while maintaining logical consistency within the verse.

Is there any indication of this assumed unchangeability? Or is it merely inferred due to "an appeal to common sense"? The truth is, we no longer lean heavily on this conventional logical standard for establishing such an ability.

There being "A spectrum of different outcomes" is essentially saying that immutability is not the only possible result you can derive from something being, as I explained, superior to the process governing the acts of changing and becoming. This is false, and if there are, in fact, other possible outcomes, I'd certainly like to hear of them.

Overall, calling this an "assumption" is, in my view, extremely disingenuous, because something being an assumption means that it is being taken to be true without proof, when the character existing beyond change is, in and of itself, the proof. It's not any more of an assumption than saying a character who lacks a soul will not be affected by Soul Manipulation.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You seem to believe that despite the evidence proving a relationship of cause and effect, and the person's unquestionable transcendence of the system, the expected outcome of this transcendence should be immutability, unless contradicted by other anti-feats such as invalidity of the system.

This is exactly what I wanted to hear, and I'm glad that my interpretation over these years wasn't wrong after all. So, if I may inquire: Is the demand for explicit proof of the logical outcome absurd? Unless I am misreading, this is what the current bolded part is conveying.

"Without both 'The evidence + outcome,' it could either resist causality manipulation or represent a type 4 acausality, depending on the context."

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You seem to believe that despite the evidence proving a relationship of cause and effect, and the person's unquestionable transcendence of the system, the expected outcome of this transcendence should be immutability, unless contradicted by other counterexamples.

This is exactly what I wanted to hear, and I'm glad that my interpretation over these years wasn't wrong after all. So, if I may inquire: Is the demand for explicit proof of the logical outcome absurd? Unless I am misreading, this is what the current bolded part is conveying.

It is completely absurd, yes. To draw from the example I've given above: It's like asking for explicit proof that, because a character lacks a soul, they'll not be affected by Soul Manipulation. Or proof that, because a character is incorporeal, they'll not be affected by Matter Manipulation. Or proof that a cup of water has H2O in it. This kind of sophistry is completely at odds with our general modus operandi in that area.

 

[ImmortalDread]

One last concern;

You asked for a spectrum of other possible outcomes, so bear me, I will try to present some.

• Possibility 1 – time manipulation: I think the character could simply be beyond cause and effect, might have the ability to manipulate time itself. This could mean they can move freely through time, affecting events, without being subject to the linear flow of cause and effect. Their actions might seem to defy causality from the perspective of observers.
• Possibility 2: Or the character could exist simultaneously in multiple parallel universes, where cause and effect operates differently in each. This might allow them to interact with events across different realities in ways that appear non-causal in any single universe.
• Possibility 3 – Reality wraping: This character might possess the power to shape or influence reality itself. Their thoughts or intentions could directly manifest as changes in the world, bypassing the traditional cause and effect chain.
• Possibility 4: Rather than being unchangeable, this person's consciousness could exist outside of the constraints of time. They might experience all moments simultaneously and have a unique perspective on cause and effect, making them seem unbound by it.
• Possibility 5 – symbolic abstract? A character beyond cause and effect could represent abstract concepts, such as the human yearning for freedom from determinism or the search for meaning in a seemingly random world.

I could list more, but these are all the instances where I believe the outcomes could differ from being unchangeable. Frankly speaking, all of them result from being unchangeable. These are the possibilities where we have demonstrated that the system is the cause of change, and the person is beyond its influence.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

One last concern;

You asked for a spectrum of other possible outcomes, so bear me, I will try to present some.

• Possibility 1 – time manipulation: I think the character could simply be beyond cause and effect, might have the ability to manipulate time itself. This could mean they can move freely through time, affecting events, without being subject to the linear flow of cause and effect. Their actions might seem to defy causality from the perspective of observers.
• Possibility 2: Or the character could exist simultaneously in multiple parallel universes or dimensions, where cause and effect operates differently in each. This might allow them to interact with events across different realities in ways that appear non-causal in any single universe.
• Possibility 3 – Reality wraping: This character might possess the power to shape or influence reality itself. Their thoughts or intentions could directly manifest as changes in the world, bypassing the traditional cause and effect chain.
• Possibility 4: Rather than being unchangeable, this person's consciousness could exist outside of the constraints of time. They might experience all moments simultaneously and have a unique perspective on cause and effect, making them seem unbound by it.
• Possibility 5 – symbolic abstract? A character beyond cause and effect could represent abstract concepts, such as the human yearning for freedom from determinism or the search for meaning in a seemingly random world.

I could list more, but these are all the instances where I believe the outcomes could differ from being unchangeable. Frankly speaking, all of them result from being unchangeable. These are the possibilities where we have demonstrated that the system is the cause of change, and the person is beyond its influence.

None of these make much sense, and in fact are far more assumptive than saying the character in question is unchangeable (With respect to the system governing change and progression that they transcend). You're not listing things that follow from being above the concept of change on the basis of logical consequence, but things that could simply exist alongside it, seeing as a good chunk of those don't even follow at all. (Being a conceptual entity doesn't logically follow from being above change, for instance. Neither does having reality warping, or time manipulation)

 

[ImmortalDread]

That said, while other interpretations might be possible, they would likely involve more speculative or abstract concepts that might not have a straightforward logical grounding.

Any other outcomes would need to be carefully constructed to avoid contradictions and inconsistencies within the framework of the verse. Given the premise that a character is beyond the cause and effect system, the most direct and logically consistent outcome is indeed their unchangeability within that system.

Merely demanding an explicit logical proof of the outcome is indeed preposterous (again, an appeal to common sense). Even if such proofs do exist, we lack grounds to delve into more complicated speculative possibilities when simpler options are available.

Thank you for your patience. I already agreed with the ability in question; I simply wanted you to present the current standards. I provided you with the fact of how many similar characters possess the evidence, but we dismiss it simply due to the lack of outcome from it.

Frankly speaking, I believe the standards have been altered solely due to instances where cause and effect are not equivalent to our defined "concept of change/causality." Instead, they relate more to obscure terminology or situations where they are directly contradicted by certain counterexamples (later on, these counterexamples can interact with humans who are connected to the system). Therefore, evaluating these scenarios was crucial. However, when considering cases where there are no counterexamples present, no unusual terminology is involved, and the discussion revolves around causality, I fail to see a reason not to apply the standard to the ability.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

I guess my points are getting ignored

 

[Gasper]

Is Multi Eternity beseline High 1-A or 1 layer into it?

 

[Eseseso]

Look, we cannot just suddenly ignore our standards for rendering images, and the replacement image is not even good looking, as it features The Beyonder together with Hank Pym and looking far more sinister and malevolent than he actually ever did within his comic book appearances.

It is fine if somebody finds a better image to create a render from though, just preferably not with the dumb inane handbook smile. The Beyonder very seldom actually looked like that within the stories themselves.

I'll get to work on the Queen of Nevers and Oblivion (And the Molecule Man now that i think of it) once I've some free time. Weekend is approaching, so, shouldn't take long. I'm also starting to draft up Part 3, so, yeah, that's something on my immediate backlog as well.


Here, from What If #43

Would eiither of you two mind if I applied these revisions to some of the characters who aren;t still being discussed (Strange w/ prep, Doom w/ prep, Uatu), and so on?

I won't touch the sandboxes Ultima made or the characters that the sandboxes are about.

 

[Antvasima]

Would eiither of you two mind if I applied these revisions to some of the characters who aren;t still being discussed (Strange w/ prep, Doom w/ prep, Uatu), and so on?

I won't touch the sandboxes Ultima made or the characters that the sandboxes are about.

What do you want to do exactly?

 

[Eseseso]

What do you want to do exactly?

Just edit the profiles of some of the more uncontroversial upgraded characters based on these revisions.

If you and Ultima want to wait until Ultima is ready to implement the sandboxes before focusing on the minor characters, I understand.

 

[Antvasima]

So do you want to copy-paste the contents of Ultima's sandboxes or do something else?

I prefer to not have too many glaring inconsistencies between our pages.

 

[Eseseso]

So do you want to copy-paste the contents of Ultima's sandboxes or do something else?

I prefer to not have too many glaring inconsistencies between our pages.

I plan on not touching the sandboxes, just the profiles of those who scale to the sandboxes.

But that might cause inconsistencies, now that I think about it.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. It seems better to focus on that after Ultima has applied his changes.

 

[Eseseso]

Yes. It seems better to focus on that after Ultima has applied his changes.

Will do!

Also:

Some universal stuff:

• An infant Thor’s crying summoned a storm more fierce and powerful than any god had ever remembered up until that point, enough to rattle all of Asgard itself.
• Created a storm from Asgard that’s so strong it destroys mountains and buildings from Earth.
• Created a universe-shaking thermo-blast.
• Pulled the Midgard Serpent away from Earth at high speeds; the Midgard Serpent extended all the way from Earth to Asgard.
• Shattered a small portion of reality.
• Shattered a hole into two realities.
• Early in his career, managed to block the explosion of a Life-Bomb, a blast with enough energy to destroy 1/5th of the universe, though died in the process (This is universal because the Marvel Universe is at least 2 trillion LY wide).
• Stated he can crumble a galaxy away and lay waste to the cosmos.

Agree with the proposals, including nuking the Yggdrasil scaling cuz lol no to High 1-B Heralds.

Also, to throw some feats into the Universal pile:

Spoiler: Stuff

• Thor and Hercules have enough power to shake the universe, which is infinite (Thor #130, Thor #161, Thor #278)
• In the battle between Beta Ray Bill and Stardust, they shook the firmament of the Universe (Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill #3)
• Thor makes the very fabric of infinity begin to tremble (Mighty Thor Vol.1 #432)
• Silver Surfer used the Power Cosmic to create a weapon with enough power to destroy the universe (Fantastic Four Vol 1 #57)
• Thunderstrike’s clash with another Thor is compared to the Big Bang (Thor Vol 1 #439)
• Hulk channels the power of two universes (Heroes Reborn: The Return #4)

Also, I recall a feat of Savage Hulk shaking infinite universes, but for reasons I don’t remember it’s considered contentious.

Just to be clear, will Marvel be downgraded to High 3-A, Low 2-C, or just a lower level of 2-C?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I need to perform some minor cleaning in his sandboxes first. Standard Procedure.

 

[Gasper]

Will do!

Also:




Just to be clear, will Marvel be downgraded to High 3-A, Low 2-C, or just a lower level of 2-C?

That will be discussed in part 3 i believe.

 

[Deagonx]

That's largely inferred from how the cosmology works. The White-Hot Room is part of a series of planes that serves as the "machinery" that keeps the omniverse running, so to speak. They're a "creation zone" whose purpose is to design existence and then manifest it (A process that comes in steps. Each succeeding step being a lower realm, with the stage where everything is finalized being then the lowest realm).

I'm not sure this inference is a good basis for it, in my opinion. It could be inferred, for instance, that the temporal dimension is what governs causality and thus something that is outside spacetime should be acausal, but that's very rarely the case in practice. The White-Hot Room being the machinery that runs the omniverse tells me much more about the relationship between the WHR and the Omniverse than it does about the precise properties of beings above the WHR. I, personally, would want to see something more explicit.