At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

ShadowWhoWalks · 2024-07-15T06:00:50+0100

Deagonx said:
Two things. First, the raws say she is "the root" that gave rise to all creation, not "the root of all creation."

Second, that question says "the power to create all things that the Earth goddesses possess." The earth goddesses possess the power, it's not saying the power specific refers to the things Earth Godesses created.

First of all, I'd like to know:

Whether you deny that Imaginary Number Space exists in the Reverse Side of the World.
Whether you think that human Magi manipulating and accessing the "nothingness" of Imaginary Number Space are accessing and manipulating the Root.

I made major points related to the above two questions in my previous comment. This is a notification in case you somehow haven't seen them, and a reminder to address them in case you did.

For you first objection, I don't like to get into what appears to me a fuss over semantics. So for the sake of removing obstacles to more substantive engagement, please feel free to switch X in my point to "the root that gave rise to all creation", "the root that created all creation", "the root that birthed all creation", "the root that originated all creation", "the root that conceived all creation", or whatever close equivalent.

The reason she is X is because she created the Earth Mothers who created earth. This is only coherent if 'creation' refers to whatever the Earth Mothers created.

As for your second objection, what do the Mother Goddesses possess beside what they created? Some sort of wealth they didn't create and power? Please list canonical creations, items, and powers that are relevant to the topic of the thread and possessed by these Mother Goddesses (Tiamat, Cybele, Ishtar, Inanna, Anat, Astarte, Gaia, Hera, Artemis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Athena, and so forth).

Would you say that if Gaia gave birth to 'everything', then goddess of Çatalhöyük have created 'everything' by proxy via. creating Gaia?

Deagonx said:
These are all from an entirely different game regarding an entirely different character and is focused on the word "nothingness" not the root. Moreover, the identical nature of what BB is able to do in terms of crushing the existing world with a new one is very dispositive here.

What are the manga scans from? I assume that's the manga version of the scene of Shiki in the Root from KnK?

Yes, different canonical sources are being used, and later ones expand upon the cosmology. Is there a problem?

You did emphasize that BB digitized the "nothingness" before life. Are you talking about a specific type of nothingness, like the Imaginary Number Space which is mentioned in the scan?

BB is capable of healing people, and 「Shiki Ryougi」 have offered to heal Mikiya, I guess that is an other connection? There are characters who threatened to destroy Proper Human History, which would be a higher tier multiversal feat.

Yes, from the Kara no Kyoukai manga.

Ultima_Reality · 2024-07-15T06:25:15+0100

Deagonx said:
Second, it literally says BB digitized the "nothingness" before life. Third, the Moon Cell is a direct digital copy of everything outside if it. It's literally a computer version of the Akashic Records, and this just confirms that further.

So the Moon Cell contains an exact copy of the entire cosmology inside of it, including the Root, thus making it comparable to the Root itself? And this is what is meant by BB having "digitized" the nothingness, I take it, based on your comments?

Because, yeah, if that be the case, it's pretty damning, from the sound of it.

Deagonx · 2024-07-15T06:55:28+0100

I'll reply to everything probably tomorrow or Tuesday.

Grand_Saver_Ritsuka · 2024-07-15T08:01:35+0100

Deagonx said:
It says "the root" that gave rise to all creation. They use quotes elsewhere to signify specific terms being used, which means "the Root" is not just the root of something generically. There's only one thing it could be.

That is actually ignoring the context here. to say it was referring to all creation when here entire kit is creating life on Earth, with all the context surrounding the Earth. An example of all creation only referring to Earth is Gilgamesh's Ea even.

Theoretical · 2024-07-15T10:10:07+0100

Now, now isn't this tad bit ridiculous, to begin, the "Swirl of the root", "Vortex of Origin" "Akashic Records" as a general term has never ever been translated as, never been referred to as, never be coined as a "Goddess", let alone "Mother Goddess", the Swirl of the root as a term has never ever been said to have its name lost 8, 000 years ago.

Gilgamesh gains the power that's on par with the supposed authority of BB which is just allegedly the Swirl of the root digitized and the mother goddess in question herself is the Swirl of the root and defeats her, this is the same person who's equal to BB is inferior to Kiara. The same Kiara who's inferior as Amaterasu and Arcueid in the Moon. Arcueid who refers to the Swirl of the root as "Absolute", is the same Arcueid who's beyond the Swirl of the root? Seeing as she's the only one capable of defeating Amaterasu in the entire Extra Verse, are we being genuine when we are saying the description of Void Shiki sent so far are identical? BB is said to not have significance and no intellect? No?

BB can't do anything? Now let's keep going, Regular Ryougi kills Archetype Earth with the Mystic Eyes, the strongest version of Arcueid beyond all divine spirits and the highest manifestation of life on the planet, killed with a power that derives from the Swirl of the root.

not everything coined as "Nothing" is the Swirl of the root, Not even that would make sense, The term nothing in the raw for Extra CCC is distinct as well it's 無, which just means nothing, the normative term for nothing, whilst 空 or「　」 translates to Emptiness, Void, Blank, Vacuum and Shunya, Shunya a Sanskrit term for a state of nothingness that lacks all qualities, derived from svi meaning hollow, a state of nothingness, it relates to the Brahman as well that which has Zero qualities and attributes.

If I had to pronounce this term, it would be kara. Each person receives it differently. To put it simply and easily, it is the vortex of the origin. However, since the vortex of the origin is called the vortex of the origin, it is still different from 「　」The problem with the drama CD was how to translate this into dialogue.

Because it's no-thing, that can't even have a name not just nothing, people only put it in terms to make it easier to understand, knowing well it doesn't fully capture it, something a wise woman by the name of Touko Aozaki said.

The core of the mooncell is an extension of Arcueid herself, an equivalent of Crimson Moon in power who lost to Zelretch because of 2nd magic, true magic literally power that comes from the Swirl of the root itself, it's almost as if the Swirl of the root grants power that can circle back and overthrow itself, the literal implications of this, how do you record an entire cosmology yet a constituent of the cosmology like Arcueid causes stress to your computational capabilities, by just being in it.

Shall We Play Around Some? [Technique name]
Arcueid's Last Arc.
For just a second, it is possible to catch a glimpse of the vampire princess Arcueid's true power. The phantom that appears behind her back is her original form. Its appearance, abilities, and very thoughts could be called the Crimson Moon.
The inspiration for this technique comes from Kagetsu Tohya. Specifically, the episode where Shiki strayed off into Arcueid's dream and received proper retribution for killing her. Because of that, when this technique is used on Shiki it hits eighteen times.

少しばかり戯れようか?【技名】
アルクェイドのラストアーク。
ほんの一瞬、アルクェイドという吸血姫の真の力が垣間見れる。背後に現れる幻は本来の姿。この姿、能力、思考こそが朱い月と言える。
出典は『歌月十夜』より。アルクェイドの夢に迷い込んだ志貴が殺された仕返しを受ける、というエピソードから。志貴が相手だとしっかり18ヒットになる。

Q: You must tell us the details of the battle between the Crimson Moon and Zelretch at his prime!!

A: You are asking me to divulge such delicious details from my stash of ideas? Mmmm... I have shown some similar scenes in Mahoyo, they would carry a similar vibe. It would be something like, the Crimson Moon dropping a mirror image of the Moon (HERE IT COMES!) versus Zelretch doing something only he was able to do: a virtually limitless Ether Cannon unleashed through a special magic circle ("Magic Square"). If we had five times the budget of Mahoyo, then we may be able to realize such a scene.

Even with how the Mooncell works, it Mooncell only records phenomena of earth.

The Moon Cell is, in a manner of speaking, an eye that observes the Earth.
A processor that faithfully simulates all life on Earth and is capable of providing a definite prediction of the future.
A database of humanity. A massive memory recording their habits, history, ideas, even their souls. A pandorafs box that promises the next stage of evolution, promises god-like power to those intelligent lifeforms who have become technologically advanced enough to scan the interior of the moon.

Originally it was an observation device left behind by an alien civilization. It had only recorded the nature of life on Earth, but after many years it came to possess its current abilities.
Though an observation device initially, it could not leave anything unseen in its observations.

(Heisenbergfs uncertainty principle. The observer determines an event by observing it. What isnft observed is not certain).

An observation device must be fair. If it is to observe, there must be nothing unseen. Thus, it required capabilities for knowing everything about the Earth.
To record all things without bias, it needed performance greater than that of an observation device.

And so, it had made a giant leap in evolution.

It had enhanced its functions to the point where it went from making observations to surveillance, even understanding the workings of the planet.

The greater its enhancements, the more complicated its administration policy.
It created many terminals and even made artificial intelligences to manage functions for each section.
(These were later utilized for the NPCs and advanced AIs of the Holy Grail War)
However, it firmly refused to install an artificial intelligence for itself.

The observer must not have a mind.
For the observer to have a mind would result in the meaning of things being decided by the observer.
Thus, it kept to maintaining its absolute objectivity as an eye, doing so while always dismantling the emerging semblances of sapience that it had incorporated to administrate its functions.

Thus, this computer has no conception of good and evil, no desire for the future, not even an outcome.

It is simply there.

A type-writer left behind by god.

An observation lens bored in the moon.

Later, the crystal ball of dreams would come to be called this.

An eye of the moon.

A bottomless Klein cube.

An ownerless Type Moon which has read all of this planet.

How can record phenomena beyond the world, not too long ago you agreed the Swirl of the root is outside of the world, we can't be having a conversation about how something recorded from earth, a planet within the material world is the Swirl of the root, This thing with computational power comparable to the solar system, not even the universe within the context of the nasuverse is simultaneously something that can simulate an existence that is equivalent to the creator of everything? This thing can't even genuinely record emotions, I didn't think it was important to have a discussion about how it can record something that creates emotions.

Tamamo overrided the authority of the Mooncell by just kicking it to save hakuno from being erased by it, Buddha overrided the authority of the Mooncell by just being in it, this powerful computer that has enough power to record the cosmology can't even handle a kick from a constituent of reality, Velber and altera can both collective destroy this artifact which can record the entire cosmology, this is the same artifact that that views Velber as a threat as well, the Ark of the stars has computational power on par with Mooncell, let's assume the Mooncell can record the cosmology, that's the equivalent of saying the Mooncell has Power to record something on Par with it.

I don't think Kinoko Nasu wrote and allowed the Swirl of the root to be the absolute of the verse and have that be recited over the years, later in Extra CCC have it to be an equivalent of a mere computer that is exceeded by several orders of magnitude by several characters and after that Fate/Extra CCC and later on have Makoto Sanda write it to be the absolute again in El Melloi Case files, while Nasu himself writes it in Tsukihime Remake to be the absolute again, Because a goddess of earth, I love the emphasis on "Earth" being said to have created Earth emphasis on earth and they liken creating Earth to create everything and "Earth" cannot be ignored because "everything" is mentioned despite her creating everything being an extension of her just creating the planet. That's not even all, there are various times in Type Moon when statements like these have been loosely said, Arcueid's soul which is the world egg, is said to be the symmetry of stars from which everything comes from, and everything returns back from.

Territory Creation: EX

As the entire planet can be considered to be her territory, she excels at synchronizing with leylines. However, the connection is so strong that the weakening of the land is capable of influencing her as well.

Despite that, her power is only limited to just earth and the Moon.

Her master is Monji Gatou.
She is a Funny Vamp [localized as Temptress] with disheveled blond hair and crimson eyes.
She is a fan service character.
Technically not a Servant, she is a mysterious creature that Gatou brought along from Earth. Sometimes a cat, sometimes Yuzu-nee, sometimes a silicon creature, Berserker is a princess that doesn’t seem to have a proper place in the game. She is waiting eagerly for the release of the remake.
Incidentally, in the world of EXTRA where the information world (digital) takes precedence over the physical world, she is no longer the strongest.
This is because in the information world legend becomes reality, and natural phenomena that have been incarnated as “Gods” can often hold more power than their original natural existence does.
Well even with that being said, if Berserker regained her sanity she would easily be considered a cheat-tier Servant. Her power, “The stage is the Moon, so all targets have their power reduced to a sixth of their usual” would be extremely useful against other similar cheat-tier Servants.
It’s a conceptual numerical alteration, so it is unavoidable when on the Moon. Even the Moon Cell transformed version of BB would be limited by it.
As far as EXTRA and CCC go, she‘s about the only one who can bring Golden White Face [Konjiki Hakumen] down to a level where “it’s possible to defeat her no matter how slim the possibility.”

Which she applied necessary conditions in(The Moon) that it must obey including the Mooncell and BB who has the power of The Root, who would've thought, her territory is just earth not the universe, this is the same person who calls the Swirl of the root an "absolute one", I can give so many more examples, is characters like Gilgamesh with EA being said to have the capacity to destroy all of creation.

The released tumult of genesis was no longer in the
realm of an anti-fortress Noble Phantasm. It was an
irregularity that broke down not only that which
possessed shape, but all of creation. That was the true
form of the anti-world Noble Phantasm that made the
King of Heroes transcendent.
Heaven fell, Earth broke; within the darkness where
everything returned to nothingness, only Archer's Sword
of Rupture shone with brilliance. The dazzling light
continued to complete the destruction, like a star of
creation, the first thing illuminating the new world.
Rider and Waver could not ascertain all of this to the
end. To begin with, the Reality Marble they were in was
maintained by the total prana of the summoned Heroic
Spirits. Before the world itself disappeared, the bounded
field broke apart at the seams once over half of the army
had been lost, and the distorted laws of space once again
returned to the way they had been.
Fate/Zero Act 16 - Volume 4

But stalemates with other characters like Enkidu with it, who derives his power from the counter force, several characters being loosely stated to be omnipotent and, in some cases, "Truly Omnipotent" but they still circle back and regard the Swirl of the root as the one and true ultimate reality.

Obviously, if you have a company that has been releasing source material for well over 20+ years, you're going to find statements like that, which obviously is cause to analyze the statements with caution instead of taking something as ambiguous as being said to be the source of all things, right after they say "creator of earth" and mother goddess, when there are several characters with the similar statements, this is not even taking into account how I can still list numerous divine spirits with the same statements let alone all characters in Type Moon.

And just to be clear this thing we're talking about is a mother goddess, by proxy it is either a God or Divine Spirit, both of which are exceed as a category in power by True Ancestors collectively, because the status of "Planet" takes precedence in power over the status of "God", which is why Arcueid was weakened in Extra, because she reduced to be "God" instead of having the status of "Planet".

The authority of the goddesses that BB compiled and absorbed from the abyss of the mooncell.

It embodies the power of all creation possessed by the mother goddesses—originating from a forgotten goddess approximately 8000 years ago (the goddess of Çatalhöyük) and branching to Tiamat and Cybele, Ishtar, Inanna, Anat, Astarte, Gaia, Hera, Artemis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Athena, etc.

Many are depicted with mural crowns. This is because many of these goddesses were also guardian deities of cities.

Let's take look at its applications.

The symbols of this authority include holes opening the earth and the sky (caves and the moon), whirling tides and waterspouts of the sea, calderas of the volcanoes, etc., and from these, evils that bring all manners of death are birthed. However, after these evils have spread death, they promise certain good harvest and fertility. This authority is none other than the power of bringing death as well as giving life.

The earth mother is worshipped by the people and protects them as a guardian deity, but at the same time, she is the very sacrifice that nurtures them with crops born from her body and beasts of the fields and the forests.

The earth mother nurtures men with her flesh and blood, kills men as time passes to restores herself with her own nourishment, and once again nurtures men with her restored flesh and blood.

This process is the cycle of the food chain, and this cycle of life and death can be said to be the true nature of the earth mother. With this authority, most of the goddesses gave birth to countless monsters and giants, posing threats to gods and men, or they gave birth to heroes, thus protecting people.

As representative examples, Tiamat and Gaia became threats, while Hera is a mother of heroes.

Literally all of its applications are about the Earth and the Moon.

◆

Those born on this earth cannot defy the authority of the mother goddess, as that would mean rebelling against the very system of life. However, when they leave this earth, head to space, and end the childhoood as intelligent lifeforms, they will have broken this authority.

The wish of Çatalhöyük is the coming of that day.

Literally even it being absolute as well is limited to Earth, when humans reach the age of will, they'll leave earth and break the authority itself; this does not look like something that's the source of all things to me, maybe just maybe all things just refer all things on Earth.

You can't even deny this being a divine spirit or god because she wields authority which has been passed down to many other divine spirits and gods.

Authorities are special abilities that fall into a different category than Codecasts, Skills, and Noble Phantasms.

An Authority is a power that is on the level of creating a world, and includes things like altering events, time-flow manipulation, and kingdom building.

Authorities existed in the age known as the Age of Gods, which was about 6000 years ago, but after entering the Common Era human civilization advanced to the point where Authorities were no longer needed, and so Authorities became a relic of the past. A normal skill "is able to accomplish a certain task by following a corresponding principle," but an Authority works "simply by making things happen because one has that right." A divine spirit Servant should naturally possess Authorities, but to use them in the modern age requires a corresponding compensation to be paid (self-destruction).

An authority is something exclusive to divine spirits and the manifestation of their omnipotence, True Ancestor wield something equivalent to that, but it's less of an authority but more of a "System" of the Planet. How is that a goddess wields something affected by Mystery, this goddess is then being argued to be the Swirl of the root, when the Swirl of the root grants powers that are not affected by Mystery lmao, True Magic that which derives from reaching the root of which there are only 5 types, True magic transcends mystery, human knowledge, because it's solely rooted in Gnosis and divine providence, it's isolated from the laws of the world and human knowledge which affects Mystery itself,

「何故かって言うと、魔術ってのは隠されていないと力が薄れてしまうものだから。
神秘の語源は閉ざす、というギリシャ語だけど、魔術は限られた密儀でなければ魔術でなくなってしまう。
文明にとって、未知なるモノ、未開なる場所は拓かれていないからこそ恐怖に値するのと同じね」

"The reason is that magic is weak if it isn't hidden.

The Greek word says that the mysterious etymology is closed, but magic is no longer magic unless it is a limited esoteric.

For civilization, unknown things and undeveloped places are just as scary because they haven't been cultivated. "

「知られたら迫害されるから隠す、じゃないの。
未知でなくなった魔術師……というより魔術ね。
明かされた魔術は力を弱めてしまう。だから隠匿するのよ。何より、魔術師の未来のために」

"If you know it, you'll be persecuted, so hide it.

A magician who is no longer unknown ... Rather than magic.

The revealed magic weakens the power. That's why I hide it. Above all, for the future of the sorcerer. "

Because phenomenology in the verse and human knowledge is the reason why mystery declines, as long as you reveal the mystery of something it becomes less powerful, The increase of human knowledge led to the decrease of mystery, which reduced Divine Spirits to just being mere phenomenon, this mere phenomenon being subjected to the phenomenological aspects of the verse, seeing as the collective will of humanity or collective unconscious, affects to what extent are certain Divine Spirits considered "Real" affects to what extent can a Heroic Spirit wield the power he had in myth.

The collective unconscious can bring about the "being" or shape of something using intellect or knowledge, that's exactly why the more people believe or/and worship the stories of myth of the hero itself, the stronger the heroic spirit will be just as it is with the God's, it is a way to solidify the presence of something that would normally exists as mere phenomenon. If people stop believing in one God or Divine Spirit entirely the God ceases to be.

Yes, if you want to preserve your memories, just take a photo or video. If that's the case, you'll be able to check it even after you've forgotten about it.
However, the magician denied it.
For the first time---that expression takes on something other than a smile.
It's not forever. Things left in the outside world won't last forever. It's true that human technology will eventually be able to create a medium'' that will not be damaged in any accident. Things are unchanging, but we are not unchanging.
Only then can we be given meaning. Even if the thing itself is unchanging,
It is not "eternal" unless the impression of the person measuring it remains unchanged. Can you observe what you saw yesterday in exactly the same state of mind as when you saw it yesterday? Yes, you can't. The observer's mind cannot always remain unchanged.
New things become old, and great things fade. He says that things themselves do not change, but our own minds change the value of things.
You see - whether an individual is immutable or not, it cannot be eternal, right? Why? It's simple, because we are disconnected from things in the outside world.
6/Oblivion recording
To be eternal is to be formless. An event that is not influenced by the observer's impressions but rather controls the observer himself. It is the only eternal phenomenon, a perfect record.
"It's called a record." "Even that record will change later on. I thought it was a good thing at the time.
In many cases, even the most unfortunate events turn out to be bad when you look back on them. No matter where I look, I can't find the eternity you speak of. It's not a record, it's a memory. A memory is nothing more than a person's personality.
Personality changes every time. The personality that changes to adapt to the outside world is like a dress. You should understand. His tone, personality, body, etc. are all just clothes he wears to express himself in an easy-to-understand manner.''
one step. The magician stepped toward me.
“The observer himself becomes the object of observation. It is not the self, but the self that is important.
Recognize and accept that the time you have spent is yourself. Admit that there is no such thing as a definite personality from the beginning. A record is a record of a soul that is unaffected by even its own thoughts.
It's nuclear. That's what will be kept forever. These are your own wounds that you can internalize and be with. Then, even if the world were to disappear, it would remain within you and be yourself.

I find it rather interesting how the characteristics of this goddess in question, bare no resemblance with the Swirl of the root, the effect of phenomenology extends to all things because the observers impressions about particulars of reality ensures that that it is not considered eternal, this extends to all things but an event that is not influenced by the observers impressions, but controls the observer himself, the only eternal phenomenon, a complete record otherwise called the Akashic Records, I don't think we need to get into the Mooncell being called an observer right? Because it observes the Earth? And all observers are dominated by the predestined records within this "perfect, eternal and unchanging record".

I'd be interested to see how anyone can possibly take exactly one statement, that isn't even a rare occurring thing in Type Moon to completely deny the entire power system and world building, it's nigh impossible to even rationalize going against these statements, because exactly one or statements are being used against several, these 2 statements are statements that occur in Type Moon regularly because of loosely some things are being described, same statements that are similar to this statement which become contradicted, either that or the characters with these outlandish statements concede to the fact that the Swirl of the root is the one and true ultimate reality.

Firestorm808 · 2024-07-15T10:45:41+0100

RaveeCPN · 2024-07-15T21:23:37+0100

Root Magazine 1.jpg

No idea.

Witch on the Holy Night (RAW)

Again, Witch on the Holy Night (RAW)

Kara no Kyoukai, Volume 3 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Fate/Zero, Volume 2, Act 7 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Kara no Kyoukai, Volume 2 (RAW)

Kara no Kyoukai, Volume 1 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II, Volume 2, Chapter 1, Part 2 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II, Volume 2, Chapter 2, Part 2 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II, Volume 6, Chapter 1, Part 2 (RAW)

I will try to send the others when I have more time. That's all from me for now...

At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

ShadowWhoWalks

Ultima_Reality

?????????

Deagonx

Grand_Saver_Ritsuka

Theoretical

Firestorm808

RaveeCPN

Breaker of Chains

Gyazo

Gyazo

Gyazo

Gyazo

Gyazo

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