Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

[Gasper]

So, I finished the three remaining profiles:

• Oblivion
• Never-Queen
• Molecule Man

Does Chaos king came in part 3?
And there is also Abraxas.

A few things: With regards to the Queen of Nevers' exact position in the cosmological scale, I would actually like some input here, because at the moment, I am really torn. As a high-end, one could argue that she is above even the White-Hot Room and thus presently the most powerful being in the verse aside from The One Above All. An explanation of this is in the profile.

And for the matter, I don't think her being Eternity's lover actually disproves the idea that she is this high, particularly because the notion that they must be equal in standing largely comes from the scenes where they are shown interacting, like this one, which certainly gives the impression they are comparable. It's all really cute, but ultimately it should be kept in mind that all of this is metaphor: Eternity and the Queen of Nevers aren't two giants making out, and those scenes are, in-universe, just allegorical visualizations of the interaction between two concepts (Existence and Possibility), so they really don't prove she is his equal at all.

That said, in Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #13, The Never Queen actually is shown dying alongside the Seventh Cosmos, apparently because the death of the omniverse means that there is no longer a future, and therefore no possibilities, which seems to indicate that she is indeed being treated as Eternity's complement, rather than something above him.

I think this scene is really weird, though, because the same run states that the Queen of Nevers births possibilities, as such meaning that she, in some way, exists prior to them, so her being dependent on their existence is just bizarre. Furthermore, the Kabbalah-based cosmology that Al Ewing established in Defenders: Beyond has it so possibility ultimately antedates reality and emanates it into existence, to begin with, so that makes the Never Queen dying because of the Seventh Cosmos' reboot even weirder.

Granted, Reckoning War showed that there is apparently a Never-Queen living in Overspace, who seems to have the Universal Eternity as her lover, so it's plausible that the above could be explained by her having different versions of herself across different layers of reality, meaning then that the Never-Queen which the Silver Surfer saw dying wasn't the same as the Never-Queen who lives in the Sefirot. It isn't unprecedented, mind you, given that we're shown that Death has a higher version that resides in the White-Hot Room and stands in direct duality with the Phoenix, apart from the Lady Death that exists in the omniverse but still linked to her.

---

I think this makes sense.

As for the Molecule Man's profile... I have to say that I don't really like. It is, in fact, probably my least favorite thing ever, but further revisions to it don't belong on this thread, so I've kept it as close to its present state as possible, while trimming it down significantly because as it stands that thing is barely readable.

However, some abilities were particularly egregious, so I chose to remove them already. Existence Erasure and Mid-Godly level Healing come from intepreting this as meaning that Molecule Man can send people to Oblivion's realm, thus erasing them from all levels of existence, as well as bring them back from there.

This is pretty ridiculous, because it's just assuming that any usage of the word "oblivion" in-verse is talking about the guy, which is obviously really silly, and is a line of logic that'd lead to quite a few entities scaling above where they should be (There are a lot of times where the word "eternity" is used in reference to stuff above Eternity, for instance)

Next is Causality Manipulation, which comes from this, and honestly I don't even know where exactly the Causality Manipulate comes from, in this scene. The other justification comes from this, which is not only not Causality Manipulation but was also done by Owen after he absorbed the Beyonders, so it has no place in his base key. The same goes for a lot of the powers and scans on that tab, actually.

Law Manipulation comes from this and this, which are Physics Manipulation instead.

Conceptual Manipulation comes from his interactions with the Abstracts in Secret Wars II, which turned out to not be so trustworthy, as has already been established, so, it goes, too.

And this is it, methinks.

This makes sense too.

 

[Gasper]

Also, here is one question, do you think This is any indication for beyonder<oblivion?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

So, I finished the three remaining profiles:

• Oblivion
• Never-Queen
• Molecule Man

A few things: With regards to the Queen of Nevers' exact position in the cosmological scale, I would actually like some input here, because at the moment, I am really torn. As a high-end, one could argue that she is above even the White-Hot Room and thus presently the most powerful being in the verse aside from The One Above All. An explanation of this is in the profile.

And for the matter, I don't think her being Eternity's lover actually disproves the idea that she is this high, particularly because the notion that they must be equal in standing largely comes from the scenes where they are shown interacting, like this one, which certainly gives the impression they are comparable. It's all really cute, but ultimately it should be kept in mind that all of this is metaphor: Eternity and the Queen of Nevers aren't two giants making out, and those scenes are, in-universe, just allegorical visualizations of the interaction between two concepts (Existence and Possibility), so they really don't prove she is his equal at all.

That said, in Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #13, The Never Queen actually is shown dying alongside the Seventh Cosmos, apparently because the death of the omniverse means that there is no longer a future, and therefore no possibilities, which seems to indicate that she is indeed being treated as Eternity's complement, rather than something above him.

I think this scene is really weird, though, because the same run states that the Queen of Nevers births possibilities, as such meaning that she, in some way, exists prior to them, so her being dependent on their existence is just bizarre. Furthermore, the Kabbalah-based cosmology that Al Ewing established in Defenders: Beyond has it so possibility ultimately antedates reality and emanates it into existence, to begin with, so that makes the Never Queen dying because of the Seventh Cosmos' reboot even weirder.

Granted, Reckoning War showed that there is apparently a Never-Queen living in Overspace, who seems to have the Universal Eternity as her lover, so it's plausible that the above could be explained by her having different versions of herself across different layers of reality, meaning then that the Never-Queen which the Silver Surfer saw dying wasn't the same as the Never-Queen who lives in the Sefirot. It isn't unprecedented, mind you, given that we're shown that Death has a higher version that resides in the White-Hot Room and stands in direct duality with the Phoenix, apart from the Lady Death that exists in the omniverse but still linked to her.

---

As for the Molecule Man's profile... I have to say that I don't really like. It is, in fact, probably my least favorite thing ever, but further revisions to it don't belong on this thread, so I've kept it as close to its present state as possible, while trimming it down significantly because as it stands that thing is barely readable.

However, some abilities were particularly egregious, so I chose to remove them already. Existence Erasure and Mid-Godly level Healing come from intepreting this as meaning that Molecule Man can send people to Oblivion's realm, thus erasing them from all levels of existence, as well as bring them back from there.

This is pretty ridiculous, because it's just assuming that any usage of the word "oblivion" in-verse is talking about the guy, which is obviously really silly, and is a line of logic that'd lead to quite a few entities scaling above where they should be (There are a lot of times where the word "eternity" is used in reference to stuff above Eternity, for instance)

Next is Causality Manipulation, which comes from this, and honestly I don't even know where exactly the Causality Manipulate comes from, in this scene. The other justification comes from this, which is not only not Causality Manipulation but was also done by Owen after he absorbed the Beyonders, so it has no place in his base key. The same goes for a lot of the powers and scans on that tab, actually.

Law Manipulation comes from this and this, which are Physics Manipulation instead.

Conceptual Manipulation comes from his interactions with the Abstracts in Secret Wars II, which turned out to not be so trustworthy, as has already been established, so, it goes, too.

And this is it, methinks.

I'm fine with this.

 

[Eseseso]

So, I finished the three remaining profiles:

• Oblivion
• Never-Queen
• Molecule Man

A few things: With regards to the Queen of Nevers' exact position in the cosmological scale, I would actually like some input here, because at the moment, I am really torn. As a high-end, one could argue that she is above even the White-Hot Room and thus presently the most powerful being in the verse aside from The One Above All. An explanation of this is in the profile.

And for the matter, I don't think her being Eternity's lover actually disproves the idea that she is this high, particularly because the notion that they must be equal in standing largely comes from the scenes where they are shown interacting, like this one, which certainly gives the impression they are comparable. It's all really cute, but ultimately it should be kept in mind that all of this is metaphor: Eternity and the Queen of Nevers aren't two giants making out, and those scenes are, in-universe, just allegorical visualizations of the interaction between two concepts (Existence and Possibility), so they really don't prove she is his equal at all.

That said, in Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #13, The Never Queen actually is shown dying alongside the Seventh Cosmos, apparently because the death of the omniverse means that there is no longer a future, and therefore no possibilities, which seems to indicate that she is indeed being treated as Eternity's complement, rather than something above him.

I think this scene is really weird, though, because the same run states that the Queen of Nevers births possibilities, as such meaning that she, in some way, exists prior to them, so her being dependent on their existence is just bizarre. Furthermore, the Kabbalah-based cosmology that Al Ewing established in Defenders: Beyond has it so possibility ultimately antedates reality and emanates it into existence, to begin with, so that makes the Never Queen dying because of the Seventh Cosmos' reboot even weirder.

Granted, Reckoning War showed that there is apparently a Never-Queen living in Overspace, who seems to have the Universal Eternity as her lover, so it's plausible that the above could be explained by her having different versions of herself across different layers of reality, meaning then that the Never-Queen which the Silver Surfer saw dying wasn't the same as the Never-Queen who lives in the Sefirot. It isn't unprecedented, mind you, given that we're shown that Death has a higher version that resides in the White-Hot Room and stands in direct duality with the Phoenix, apart from the Lady Death that exists in the omniverse but still linked to her.

---

As for the Molecule Man's profile... I have to say that I don't really like. It is, in fact, probably my least favorite thing ever, but further revisions to it don't belong on this thread, so I've kept it as close to its present state as possible, while trimming it down significantly because as it stands that thing is barely readable.

However, some abilities were particularly egregious, so I chose to remove them already. Existence Erasure and Mid-Godly level Healing come from intepreting this as meaning that Molecule Man can send people to Oblivion's realm, thus erasing them from all levels of existence, as well as bring them back from there.

This is pretty ridiculous, because it's just assuming that any usage of the word "oblivion" in-verse is talking about the guy, which is obviously really silly, and is a line of logic that'd lead to quite a few entities scaling above where they should be (There are a lot of times where the word "eternity" is used in reference to stuff above Eternity, for instance)

Next is Causality Manipulation, which comes from this, and honestly I don't even know where exactly the Causality Manipulate comes from, in this scene. The other justification comes from this, which is not only not Causality Manipulation but was also done by Owen after he absorbed the Beyonders, so it has no place in his base key. The same goes for a lot of the powers and scans on that tab, actually.

Law Manipulation comes from this and this, which are Physics Manipulation instead.

Conceptual Manipulation comes from his interactions with the Abstracts in Secret Wars II, which turned out to not be so trustworthy, as has already been established, so, it goes, too.

And this is it, methinks.

Shame but had to be done.

Btw:

How come you lowered True Oblivion's Transduality from Type 3 (his current profile) to Type 2 (your sandbox)?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

A few things: With regards to the Queen of Nevers' exact position in the cosmological scale, I would actually like some input here, because at the moment, I am really torn. As a high-end, one could argue that she is above even the White-Hot Room and thus presently the most powerful being in the verse aside from The One Above All. An explanation of this is in the profile.

We treat the Never Queen inside Da'at as different then the Never Queen that interacts with Eternity and the Outside. Which probably requires two different keys

If The Beyonders and even Those-Who-Sit-Above-In-Shadows have to take finite forms of themselves to interact with both the Outside and The Multiverse, it isnt difficult to assume that The Never Queen also takes forms of herself to do the same (same probably goes for any entity that exists higher in the Kabbalah but is seen taking forms in the Multiverse.)

 

[Gasper]

We treat the Never Queen inside Da'at as different then the Never Queen that interacts with Eternity and the Outside. Which probably requires two different keys

If The Beyonders and even Those-Who-Sit-Above-In-Shadows have to take finite forms of themselves to interact with both the Outside and The Multiverse, it isnt difficult to assume that The Never Queen also takes forms of herself to do the same (same probably goes for any entity that exists higher in the Kabbalah but is seen taking forms in the Multiverse.)

Or the Never Queen could be using an M bodies.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

And there is also Abraxas.

I think Abraxas now is Low 1-A, right? Or possible 1-A, that's it if he's not receiving a key at the Superflow.

 

[Gasper]

I think Abraxas now is Low 1-A, right? Or possible 1-A, that's it if he's not receiving a key at the Superflow.

I think he can eat Multi-Eternity. So probably High 1-A?

 

[Eseseso]

Abraxas should likely be "Low 1-A, likely Higher", since he was killing Galactus versions by the hundreds.

 

[Gasper]

Abraxas should likely be "Low 1-A, likely Higher", since he was killing Galactus versions by the hundreds.

I think High 1-B likely higher should be better then. We don't know how well fed where Galactus' when Abraxas killed them.

 

[Eseseso]

• Molecule Man

As for the Molecule Man's profile... I have to say that I don't really like. It is, in fact, probably my least favorite thing ever, but further revisions to it don't belong on this thread, so I've kept it as close to its present state as possible, while trimming it down significantly because as it stands that thing is barely readable.

However, some abilities were particularly egregious, so I chose to remove them already. Existence Erasure and Mid-Godly level Healing come from intepreting this as meaning that Molecule Man can send people to Oblivion's realm, thus erasing them from all levels of existence, as well as bring them back from there.

This is pretty ridiculous, because it's just assuming that any usage of the word "oblivion" in-verse is talking about the guy, which is obviously really silly, and is a line of logic that'd lead to quite a few entities scaling above where they should be (There are a lot of times where the word "eternity" is used in reference to stuff above Eternity, for instance)

Next is Causality Manipulation, which comes from this, and honestly I don't even know where exactly the Causality Manipulate comes from, in this scene. The other justification comes from this, which is not only not Causality Manipulation but was also done by Owen after he absorbed the Beyonders, so it has no place in his base key. The same goes for a lot of the powers and scans on that tab, actually.

Law Manipulation comes from this and this, which are Physics Manipulation instead.

Conceptual Manipulation comes from his interactions with the Abstracts in Secret Wars II, which turned out to not be so trustworthy, as has already been established, so, it goes, too.

And this is it, methinks.

1. For Possession on his profile, IMO it could also be Mind Manipulation since he takes over the minds of his victims.

2. Some more stuff for the Molecule Man's AP include:

• Shaking the multiverse upon getting his powers
• Was not only a threat to the Watchers upon his creation, but also the universe (aka Eternity) itself. From Fantastic Four Vol 1 #20

 

[HigashikataJobin]

I think High 1-B likely higher should be better then. We don't know how well fed where Galactus' when Abraxas killed them.

So, "At least High 1-B, likely higher" them?

 

[HigashikataJobin]

I remembered that Reed said the only way to kill Abraxas was if he remake Multi-Eternity with the Ultimate Nulifier, and he said that while he was receiving help of the 616 Galactus.

 

[Gasper]

So, "At least High 1-B, likely higher" them?

I think so, i wanna hear what others think.

 

[Gasper]

This really has nothing to do with the thread, i'm just interested if This can be used as another justification for High 1-B/Low 1-A Universes.

 

[Railgun]

So, I finished the three remaining profiles:

• Oblivion
• Never-Queen
• Molecule Man

I think you have mixed nature and aspect types on never-queen's page.
it says: Nonexistent Physiology (Aspect Type 2, Nature Types 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5

 

[HigashikataJobin]

The changes of the profiles can be applied now, right? Ultima has already done the last profiles remaining.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, I finished the three remaining profiles:

• Oblivion
• Never-Queen
• Molecule Man

A few things: With regards to the Queen of Nevers' exact position in the cosmological scale, I would actually like some input here, because at the moment, I am really torn. As a high-end, one could argue that she is above even the White-Hot Room and thus presently the most powerful being in the verse aside from The One Above All. An explanation of this is in the profile.

And for the matter, I don't think her being Eternity's lover actually disproves the idea that she is this high, particularly because the notion that they must be equal in standing largely comes from the scenes where they are shown interacting, like this one, which certainly gives the impression they are comparable. It's all really cute, but ultimately it should be kept in mind that all of this is metaphor: Eternity and the Queen of Nevers aren't two giants making out, and those scenes are, in-universe, just allegorical visualizations of the interaction between two concepts (Existence and Possibility), so they really don't prove she is his equal at all.

That said, in Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #13, The Never Queen actually is shown dying alongside the Seventh Cosmos, apparently because the death of the omniverse means that there is no longer a future, and therefore no possibilities, which seems to indicate that she is indeed being treated as Eternity's complement, rather than something above him.

I think this scene is really weird, though, because the same run states that the Queen of Nevers births possibilities, as such meaning that she, in some way, exists prior to them, so her being dependent on their existence is just bizarre. Furthermore, the Kabbalah-based cosmology that Al Ewing established in Defenders: Beyond has it so possibility ultimately antedates reality and emanates it into existence, to begin with, so that makes the Never Queen dying because of the Seventh Cosmos' reboot even weirder.

Granted, Reckoning War showed that there is apparently a Never-Queen living in Overspace, who seems to have the Universal Eternity as her lover, so it's plausible that the above could be explained by her having different versions of herself across different layers of reality, meaning then that the Never-Queen which the Silver Surfer saw dying wasn't the same as the Never-Queen who lives in the Sefirot. It isn't unprecedented, mind you, given that we're shown that Death has a higher version that resides in the White-Hot Room and stands in direct duality with the Phoenix, apart from the Lady Death that exists in the omniverse but still linked to her.

---

As for the Molecule Man's profile... I have to say that I don't really like. It is, in fact, probably my least favorite thing ever, but further revisions to it don't belong on this thread, so I've kept it as close to its present state as possible, while trimming it down significantly because as it stands that thing is barely readable.

However, some abilities were particularly egregious, so I chose to remove them already. Existence Erasure and Mid-Godly level Healing come from intepreting this as meaning that Molecule Man can send people to Oblivion's realm, thus erasing them from all levels of existence, as well as bring them back from there.

This is pretty ridiculous, because it's just assuming that any usage of the word "oblivion" in-verse is talking about the guy, which is obviously really silly, and is a line of logic that'd lead to quite a few entities scaling above where they should be (There are a lot of times where the word "eternity" is used in reference to stuff above Eternity, for instance)

Next is Causality Manipulation, which comes from this, and honestly I don't even know where exactly the Causality Manipulate comes from, in this scene. The other justification comes from this, which is not only not Causality Manipulation but was also done by Owen after he absorbed the Beyonders, so it has no place in his base key. The same goes for a lot of the powers and scans on that tab, actually.

Law Manipulation comes from this and this, which are Physics Manipulation instead.

Conceptual Manipulation comes from his interactions with the Abstracts in Secret Wars II, which turned out to not be so trustworthy, as has already been established, so, it goes, too.

And this is it, methinks.

Ontop of this, I also wrote the provisional justification for the Herald tiers. Since Thor is pretty much the lynchpin for that part of the verse's scaling, I wrote it as a justification for him, specifically (Using both feats currently accepted and the most blatant among the feats Maverick presented up there):

High Universe level (Consistently equal to Hercules, who can support the infinitely massive weight of the heavens, as well as shake the universe, which is consistently described as infinitely large. Comparable to Beta Ray Bill, who shook the firmament of the universe in his battle with Stardust. Wrestled with the World-Serpent while it was bridging Earth and Asgard with its length, the two being spaced apart by an infinite distance, and himself created a storm so strong its winds reached Earth from Asgard)

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Ontop of this, I also wrote the provisional justification for the Herald tiers. Since Thor is pretty much the lynchpin for that part of the verse's scaling, I wrote it as a justification for him, specifically (Using both feats currently accepted and the most blatant among the feats Maverick presented up there):

High Universe level (Consistently equal to Hercules, who can support the infinitely massive weight of the heavens, as well as shake the universe, which is consistently described as infinitely large. Comparable to Beta Ray Bill, who shook the firmament of the universe in his battle with Stardust. Wrestled with the World-Serpent while it was bridging Earth and Asgard with its length, the two being spaced apart by an infinite distance, and himself created a storm so strong its winds reached Earth from Asgard)

Isn’t there also like two feats of hulk destroying a specific dimension?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Ontop of this, I also wrote the provisional justification for the Herald tiers. Since Thor is pretty much the lynchpin for that part of the verse's scaling, I wrote it as a justification for him, specifically (Using both feats currently accepted and the most blatant among the feats Maverick presented up there):

High Universe level (Consistently equal to Hercules, who can support the infinitely massive weight of the heavens, as well as shake the universe, which is consistently described as infinitely large. Comparable to Beta Ray Bill, who shook the firmament of the universe in his battle with Stardust. Wrestled with the World-Serpent while it was bridging Earth and Asgard with its length, the two being spaced apart by an infinite distance, and himself created a storm so strong its winds reached Earth from Asgard)

Looks good

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Ontop of this, I also wrote the provisional justification for the Herald tiers. Since Thor is pretty much the lynchpin for that part of the verse's scaling, I wrote it as a justification for him, specifically (Using both feats currently accepted and the most blatant among the feats Maverick presented up there):

High Universe level (Consistently equal to Hercules, who can support the infinitely massive weight of the heavens, as well as shake the universe, which is consistently described as infinitely large. Comparable to Beta Ray Bill, who shook the firmament of the universe in his battle with Stardust. Wrestled with the World-Serpent while it was bridging Earth and Asgard with its length, the two being spaced apart by an infinite distance, and himself created a storm so strong its winds reached Earth from Asgard)

Second link doesn't work.

 

[Excellence616]

Ontop of this, I also wrote the provisional justification for the Herald tiers. Since Thor is pretty much the lynchpin for that part of the verse's scaling, I wrote it as a justification for him, specifically (Using both feats currently accepted and the most blatant among the feats Maverick presented up there):

High Universe level (Consistently equal to Hercules, who can support the infinitely massive weight of the heavens, as well as shake the universe, which is consistently described as infinitely large. Comparable to Beta Ray Bill, who shook the firmament of the universe in his battle with Stardust. Wrestled with the World-Serpent while it was bridging Earth and Asgard with its length, the two being spaced apart by an infinite distance, and himself created a storm so strong its winds reached Earth from Asgard)

Looks okay

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Ontop of this, I also wrote the provisional justification for the Herald tiers. Since Thor is pretty much the lynchpin for that part of the verse's scaling, I wrote it as a justification for him, specifically (Using both feats currently accepted and the most blatant among the feats Maverick presented up there):

High Universe level (Consistently equal to Hercules, who can support the infinitely massive weight of the heavens, as well as shake the universe, which is consistently described as infinitely large. Comparable to Beta Ray Bill, who shook the firmament of the universe in his battle with Stardust. Wrestled with the World-Serpent while it was bridging Earth and Asgard with its length, the two being spaced apart by an infinite distance, and himself created a storm so strong its winds reached Earth from Asgard)

We don't currently accept the universe as infinitely large.

 

[Gasper]

We don't currently accept the universe as infinitely large.

We do if it's stated as such in the comic that the feat happens in.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

We don't currently accept the universe as infinitely large.

Don’t we? This thread was accepted

https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-comics-the-infinite-universe.144482/

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Don’t we? This thread was accepted

https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-comics-the-infinite-universe.144482/

Not completely.

We consider the part of the Marvel universe that is possible for characters to travel within to have been proven to be finite, and to at the very least have a radius of 1 trillion lightyears.[1]

This is due to that it has very explicitly been established to have a border called The Crunch,[2] to have a centre that Thanos was once transported to after being deprived of a cosmic cube,[3] and to have been reduced to 1/10th of its original size during the Reckoning War storyline.[4]

Although many, but unproven and likely allegorical, statements regarding that the entirety of the universe as a whole is infinite. We also consider the complete universal space-time continuum to be literally endless in all spatial directions via the void that should logically surround The Crunch border. It was also discussed in this thread.

In a nutshell, only the continuum was accepted as infinite; the physical matter within it is finite.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Not completely.

In a nutshell, only the continuum was accepted as infinite; the physical matter within it is finite.

I'm not sure saying "Only the continuum was accepted as infinite" is a terribly relevant distinction, seeing as the text you've quoted says we consider the universe to be infinite in all spatial directions as well, not just the temporal one. Sounds more like it's saying Marvel's "observable universe" is a trillion lightyears in radius, but the full universe is infinite.

Not sure how this pans out, when it comes to feats. Do we require clarification that feats affected the entire universe, and not just the observable one, or? If so, I suppose can remove the "shaking the universe" bit.

 

[Antvasima]

So, I finished the three remaining profiles:

• Oblivion
• Never-Queen
• Molecule Man

A few things: With regards to the Queen of Nevers' exact position in the cosmological scale, I would actually like some input here, because at the moment, I am really torn. As a high-end, one could argue that she is above even the White-Hot Room and thus presently the most powerful being in the verse aside from The One Above All. An explanation of this is in the profile.

And for the matter, I don't think her being Eternity's lover actually disproves the idea that she is this high, particularly because the notion that they must be equal in standing largely comes from the scenes where they are shown interacting, like this one, which certainly gives the impression they are comparable. It's all really cute, but ultimately it should be kept in mind that all of this is metaphor: Eternity and the Queen of Nevers aren't two giants making out, and those scenes are, in-universe, just allegorical visualizations of the interaction between two concepts (Existence and Possibility), so they really don't prove she is his equal at all.

That said, in Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #13, The Never Queen actually is shown dying alongside the Seventh Cosmos, apparently because the death of the omniverse means that there is no longer a future, and therefore no possibilities, which seems to indicate that she is indeed being treated as Eternity's complement, rather than something above him.

I think this scene is really weird, though, because the same run states that the Queen of Nevers births possibilities, as such meaning that she, in some way, exists prior to them, so her being dependent on their existence is just bizarre. Furthermore, the Kabbalah-based cosmology that Al Ewing established in Defenders: Beyond has it so possibility ultimately antedates reality and emanates it into existence, to begin with, so that makes the Never Queen dying because of the Seventh Cosmos' reboot even weirder.

Granted, Reckoning War showed that there is apparently a Never-Queen living in Overspace, who seems to have the Universal Eternity as her lover, so it's plausible that the above could be explained by her having different versions of herself across different layers of reality, meaning then that the Never-Queen which the Silver Surfer saw dying wasn't the same as the Never-Queen who lives in the Sefirot. It isn't unprecedented, mind you, given that we're shown that Death has a higher version that resides in the White-Hot Room and stands in direct duality with the Phoenix, apart from the Lady Death that exists in the omniverse but still linked to her.

---

As for the Molecule Man's profile... I have to say that I don't really like. It is, in fact, probably my least favorite thing ever, but further revisions to it don't belong on this thread, so I've kept it as close to its present state as possible, while trimming it down significantly because as it stands that thing is barely readable.

However, some abilities were particularly egregious, so I chose to remove them already. Existence Erasure and Mid-Godly level Healing come from intepreting this as meaning that Molecule Man can send people to Oblivion's realm, thus erasing them from all levels of existence, as well as bring them back from there.

This is pretty ridiculous, because it's just assuming that any usage of the word "oblivion" in-verse is talking about the guy, which is obviously really silly, and is a line of logic that'd lead to quite a few entities scaling above where they should be (There are a lot of times where the word "eternity" is used in reference to stuff above Eternity, for instance)

Next is Causality Manipulation, which comes from this, and honestly I don't even know where exactly the Causality Manipulate comes from, in this scene. The other justification comes from this, which is not only not Causality Manipulation but was also done by Owen after he absorbed the Beyonders, so it has no place in his base key. The same goes for a lot of the powers and scans on that tab, actually.

Law Manipulation comes from this and this, which are Physics Manipulation instead.

Conceptual Manipulation comes from his interactions with the Abstracts in Secret Wars II, which turned out to not be so trustworthy, as has already been established, so, it goes, too.

And this is it, methinks.

This seems reasonable to me, although in her first appearance Glorian had forged a blade that was capable to killing the Never Queen, so Dan Slott evidently didn't perceive her as nearly as impressive as Al Ewing does.

Btw: So is the most reasonable current interpretation of the true Oblivion that "he" is the personification of "The Land of Couldn't Be Shouldn't Be"? With The Never Queen being one step higher in the hierarchy? And if so, do we have any evidence to base stating it on officially, or do we have to keep this speculation out of his profile page?

 

[Gasper]

This seems reasonable to me, although in her first appearance Glorian had forged a blade that was capable to killing the Never Queen, so Dan Slott evidently didn't perceive her as nearly as impressive as Al Ewing does.

Btw: So is the most reasonable current interpretation of the true Oblivion that "he" is the personification of "The Land of Couldn't Be Shouldn't Be"? With The Never Queen being one step higher in the hierarchy? And if so, do we have any evidence to base stating it on officially, or do we have to keep this speculation out of his profile page?

Nah, Oblivion is currently viewed as Far Shore level.

 

[Antvasima]

Ontop of this, I also wrote the provisional justification for the Herald tiers. Since Thor is pretty much the lynchpin for that part of the verse's scaling, I wrote it as a justification for him, specifically (Using both feats currently accepted and the most blatant among the feats Maverick presented up there):

High Universe level (Consistently equal to Hercules, who can support the infinitely massive weight of the heavens, as well as shake the universe, which is consistently described as infinitely large. Comparable to Beta Ray Bill, who shook the firmament of the universe in his battle with Stardust. Wrestled with the World-Serpent while it was bridging Earth and Asgard with its length, the two being spaced apart by an infinite distance, and himself created a storm so strong its winds reached Earth from Asgard)

This also seems fine to me. Thank you very much for helping out.

 

[Antvasima]

Nah, Oblivion is currently viewed as Far Shore level.

At what level is that considered to be compared to the other High 1-A characters?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, here is one question, do you think This is any indication for beyonder<oblivion?

Both of them were illusions, so probably not.

 

[Gasper]

At what level is that considered to be compared to the other High 1-A characters?

In between Malkuth (Nutral Zone) and Yesod (The Beyond). Level Above Eternity.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Btw: So is the most reasonable current interpretation of the true Oblivion that "he" is the personification of "The Land of Couldn't Be Shouldn't Be"? With The Never Queen being one step higher in the hierarchy? And if so, do we have any evidence to base stating it on officially, or do we have to keep this speculation out of his profile page?

My initial train of thought in these revisions was that Oblivion was just the personification of the Far Shore, so, one level above Eternity but nonetheless below the higher planes in the Mystery. Overtime, though, I've become more of the opinion that his void could be associated with a number of things, what with how vaguely described it is, so I'm also perfectly fine with saying his exact standing in the cosmology beyond "Higher than Eternity's true self" is an unknown.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not sure saying "Only the continuum was accepted as infinite" is a terribly relevant distinction, seeing as the text you've quoted says we consider the universe to be infinite in all spatial directions as well, not just the temporal one. Sounds more like it's saying Marvel's "observable universe" is a trillion lightyears in radius, but the full universe is infinite.

Not sure how this pans out, when it comes to feats. Do we require clarification that feats affected the entire universe, and not just the observable one, or? If so, I suppose can remove the "shaking the universe" bit.

Well, Dan Slott caused problems again when he established that 90% of the Marvel Universe was destroyed extremely long ago by a race of aliens called The Reckoning who used Watcher technology.

 

[Antvasima]

My initial train of thought in these revisions was that Oblivion was just the personification of the Far Shore, so, one level above Eternity but nonetheless below the higher planes in the Mystery. Overtime, though, I've become more of the opinion that his void could be associated with a number of things, what with how vaguely described it is, so I'm also perfectly fine with saying his exact standing in the cosmology beyond "Higher than Eternity's true self" is an unknown.

Okay. You should probably mention this information within his profile page then.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Okay. You should probably mention this information within his profile page then.

Did so.

Anyway: What is left to do here, exactly? Do I have full-on approval to apply the accepted changes? At most, the only thing left to further discuss are what to do with the Never-Queen and whether Hercules and Beta Ray Bill's universe-shaking feats are eligible for High 3-A, both of which are subjects of decent relevance but that otherwise hold no bearing in the overall proposals, so, yeah.

 

[Gasper]

Did so.

Anyway: What is left to do here, exactly? Do I have full-on approval to apply the accepted changes? At most, the only thing left to further discuss are what to do with the Never-Queen and whether Hercules and Beta Ray Bill's universe-shaking feats are eligible for High 3-A, both of which are subjects of decent relevance but that otherwise hold no bearing in the overall proposals, so, yeah.

Yeah, we where mostly waiting on you, so if you're fine with everything then i think you can, everyone has agreed to apply this, i think.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Did so.

Anyway: What is left to do here, exactly? Do I have full-on approval to apply the accepted changes? At most, the only thing left to further discuss are what to do with the Never-Queen and whether Hercules and Beta Ray Bill's universe-shaking feats are eligible for High 3-A, both of which are subjects of decent relevance but that otherwise hold no bearing in the overall proposals, so, yeah.

Just one small thing I would want to ask: about Abraxas, what tier do you see that fits him? We talked about him but I wanted to see your opinion. Besides this, none is left and the other characters can be discussed in part 3.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Just one small thing I would want to ask: about Abraxas, what tier do you see that fits him? We talked about him but I wanted to see your opinion. Besides this, none is left and the other characters can be discussed in part 3.

Abraxas is specifically the personification of the destruction that acts as a counterbalance to the act of creation that Multi-Eternity represents, and is such an integral part of existence that Reed needed to reboot Eternity entirely to get rid of him. Given those things, I think he's pretty easily High 1-A.