Yeah, alright. You've mentioned before that there actually are scans saying that the world is illusory and in actually just nothingness, too, yes? Can you show those here (And the surrounding context, too)? I know you said you can't be assed to get them, but you can take your time, ofc. Not like anyone is in a rush.
Essentially Kiara is a Buddhist that followed teachings from the branch of Shingon Tachikawa, she explains how all creation is an illusion and all things are fundamentally nothingness, the part where she says as long as the virtual world (the mooncell) remains there will be hope, is her reference to how there's still a chance for all to reach the truth of nirvana by overcoming Maya, a principle whereby the "attributeless Absolute" appears to have "attributes" and attaining enlightenment means you overcome this illusion.
And another voice line says all is a dream and this is the flower of the end as well, originally in Kara no Kyoukai when the 3rd personality of Ryougi talks about her connection and what she can do with it.
Which would in a sense correspond to this in the grand scheme of things, because teachings of dharma by extensions teach about enlightenment and reaching nirvana in Buddhism.
Which all goes back to how when humans reach it, they return back to this nothingness, they essentially become complete and the meaning of life vanishes.
"the other side" is a loose term for this
Yeah, I looked into the raws of that. "彼岸より放たれる". Literally "Released from the other side," where 彼岸 can mean both "Other side" and "Nirvana." Seems to be an intentional play on words.
Although, question: Earlier on, you posted a scan that mentioned how Shiki's third personality was born as something with no intellect or significance, because she just sprung directly from the [ ] and into a womb. In fact, she identifies herself with the very [ ] in that scene, and says that she was "awakened" into consciousness. Not endowed with a ready-made personality, as she notes, but truly awakened to the outside world. What's up with that? Did the Root gain a will, or somesuch? I can't be bothered to get the scan right now, but you know which one I mean.
I found them, my friend nel made my job easier, it still says the same thing and talks about all things being fundamentally nothing and everything being confined by Maya which can be escaped through reaching the nirvana through earthly desires which is rooted in Mahayana Buddhism iirc.
She waffles for a while, but explains that she gained a personality as a result of the brain and flesh itself, rather than having a personality being born directly from intellect itself, the way she gained intellect is seemingly individuated from how the male and female personality got intellect, she says they both intrinsically possessed a will and inclination of their own and in that sense they are of a higher order than her.
The insinuation that she's basically a philosophical zombie is pretty hilarious, but yeah, seems to check out. I'll go over all of the stuff when I get home later.
No personal experience, but she is designed to be a living vessel for the Holy Grail and is a member of a family dedicated to reaching it, so we can presume that she is reflecting the knowledge of the mage societies at large.
This theory is problematic on two counts. The first is that numerous scans assert that this ritual is for reaching the Root itself, the invention of some unmentioned pathway that contains a bunch of mana seems to circumvent the stated purpose of the Holy Grail War. Second, it is problematic that there is an intermediary zone "between" the normal world and the Root.
I mean, if the nothingness is supposed to be the Root, then this is super weird:
Still doesn't mean much if you want to accept it alongside Shiki's vision of the Root. Was all the mana just tucked away somewhere she couldn't see, for instance? (Sounds pretty stupid).
oof
Deagon, pls tell me you didn't know this was a blatant mistranslation. @Theoretical was actually talking about this on discord a few days or weeks ago. It never said "Swirl of The root." Whoever added that beside "the root" really is doing devil's work
Since when was Akasha referred to as a goddess?
I like how in the "raws" for this, it explicitly never mentions the Swirl of the root.
Yeah, it's from marshadow. This authority comes from the Mooncell, Arcueid despite being weakened causes a stress to the computational capabilities of the Mooncell, it's weird how it grants Swirl of the root capabilities but can't handle the existence of someone who claiming the Swirl of the root is absolute.
Is this gonna make the raws have "Swirl of the root" or something? The raw is is there, I'm unsure as to what another person's translation is gonna do when the raw never mentions the Swirl of the root.
Ultima's question was "experience with the root" Insofar as gazing into the root, not the pathway to the root.
They don't teleport to the Swirl of the root, they travel in the pathway, the pathway is in the other side, now assuming the experience of another person with the Swirl of the root, inside the Swirl of the root, it makes it less feasible that the other side is a reference to the Swirl of the root, if the person who it experiences lists attributes that don't share a relation with the attributes you're trying to infer to instantiate the Swirl of the root.
From a purely philosophical standpoint, this causes no problems, there are intermediate emanations between the ultimate reality and the material reality in many theosophical and philosophical models, the ultimate reality doesn't just directly spawn the material world. If anything that's more nonsensical than just having places that are intermediate to the material world and the ultimate reality.
No, it's a mother goddess who predates Tiamat, Tiamat got her Authority from her.
I suppose the name of the Swirl of the root, could've simply been lost 8,000 years ago as well, this seems consistent enough.
Seriously? You guys have been using localized scans without taking the time to find the raws for us to archive them. How is it his fault if he also pulls out a localized scan that could have been mistranslated?Deagon, pls tell me you didn't know this was a blatant mistranslation. @Theoretical was actually talking about this on discord a few days or weeks ago. It never said "Swirl of The root." Whoever added that beside "the root" really is doing devil's work
This is the raws
DeepL translation
Since when was Akasha referred to as a goddess?
Nowhere does it mention "Swirl of The root" Just reading it, you will understand that the context has literally nothing to do with the omnipotent Swirl of the root.
An actual translator could check it out tho.
Once again, finding random raw scans from Type Moon is borderline impossible. I wish you understood the pain it took to get some of these scans.
You and I are aware of the difficulty, yes. So lay off the attitude when someone else presents a localized scan but doesn't have the raw to know if it's a mistranslation or not.
It's fine, I'm unsure if BB got it from Tiamat tho.
I think he means in general not just that Extra CCC scan, if so it's (根源の渦), it's typically vortex of origin or spiral of origin, lemme check in El Melloi Case files, because it has that too. Also Extra CCC was never localized, there are only English patches from fans iirc.
Whose screenshot is accurate? The translation I used or the one you dropped?
Did you even read the raw at all? The scan you showed had a bad translation. The raws doesn't have any mini notes and the statement literally refers to the "earth goddess" being the "source" or "root" or whatever. Please settle down to read the actual translation.
I genuinely cannot fathom how in the world you somehow saw Shiki's abilities and statement and said yup it's similar to BB's who has absolutely nothing in common to Shiki ability-wise. But I'm not like theoretical. I can't be arsed to explain the same thing to you gazillion times so imma just leave it for Ultima to read the correct tl and decide the context.Further, the description of the ability BB has a result of this is identical to what Shiki says she can do with her Root powers.
And indeed, BB was able to digitize/quantify the "nothingness." So, yeah, Fate/EXTRA CCC is saying pretty plainly that the Mother of the various Earth Goddesses (the Primordial Goddess) was the Root that gave rise to all creation and BB has this power (literally digitized it), as a result she can do the same things Shiki can do (crush the old world and superimpose a new world).
Pretty cut and dry, actually.
Pretty sure that scan is popularly know to be a mistranslated scan just based off the supposed context of the scene. Isn't it funny how all of the scans I and the rest of supporters used have been mainly more accurate than most of Deagon's scans. It's almost as if he's specifically cherrypicking the ones with faulty translations. But imma lay off a bit before I get blamed for saying too much.
That's what Deagon was saying. That it was a translator's note; something outside of the original text, but using the translator's knowledge of it to provide additional context.
Alright. Then it's a dumb note then. The scan clearly wasn't referring to the Swirl of the Root.
It was probably the part where both of them are said to superimpose a new world with which they "crush" the old world using their abilities.
You keep dismissing the context of "earth goddess" alright. The root has never been referred to as an "earth goddess" cmon now.
One is talking about all of creation (all of Nasuverse), the other is only referring to things within the mooncell. How is this comparable?
This is about the primordial mother of the Earth goddesses. Also, regardless of whether it's been referred to that way before, that's what the scan is saying unambiguously.
First, nothing says it's referring to the Moon Cell and that wouldn't make any sense regardless. Second, it literally says BB digitized the "nothingness" before life. Third, the Moon Cell is a direct digital copy of everything outside if it. It's literally a computer version of the Akashic Records, and this just confirms that further.
So you can't explain how the Swirl of the root has anything to do with the "primordial earth goddess" who by the way, is a character that is already mentioned and definitely not Swirl of the Root.
This is gotten from CCC. Everything happened in the 8D mooncell. Secondly, claiming the mooncell ia a digital copy of everything outside and comparing it Akasha is just painfully hilarious. I honestly don't know if you're trolling or not. 8D mooncell=Akasha is just something else
And yet, here is the source material directly saying otherwise and all you have mustered as a rebuttal is "no."
I'm aware of where it's from. If you have nothing to provide in terms of an actual rebuttal then simply stop commenting. It doesn't make any sense for "all of creation" to refer to the Moon Cell when there's several statements in CCC acknowledging the fact that the Moon Cell is a copy of the outside world.This is gotten from CCC. Everything happened in the 8D mooncell. Secondly, claiming the mooncell ia a digital copy of everything outside and comparing it Akasha is just painfully hilarious. I honestly don't know if you're trolling or not. 8D mooncell=Akasha is just something else
vsbattles.fandom.com
The aforementioned primordial goddess isn't Arcueid. Arcueid isn't even among the Earth Mother Goddesses that the primordial goddess is responsible for.Arcueid Brunestud
Arcueid Brunestud is the White Princess of the True Ancestors, created for the meaningless purpose of being the strongest of their kind. Tasked with eradicating those True Ancestors that fell to their bloodlust and the Dead Apostles that turned against them, she was nothing more than a tool used...
Arcueid is not the swirl of the root, Void Shiki is.
And indeed, BB was able to digitize/quantify the "nothingness." So, yeah, Fate/EXTRA CCC is saying pretty plainly that the Mother of the various Earth Goddesses (the Primordial Goddess) was the Root that gave rise to all creation and BB has this power (literally digitized it), as a result she can do the same things Shiki can do (crush the old world and superimpose a new world).
Pretty cut and dry, actually.
| Trisha's elemental affinity was for Imaginary Numbers, she remembered. Imaginary Numbers space, where "nothingness" existed as an actual thing, was something like a dimensional pocket, a place where objects would be freed from interaction with the flow of space and time. The only thing that could interact with this dimensional pocket was the original spell. Primarily that meant only someone with the same affinity for Imaginary Numbers could access it, but in certain cases there were other methods. Or so she had heard from Trisha. |
| Potnia Theron: Womb of All Animals: EX Potnia Theron (Animal Mistress). It is the Authority of the goddesses whom BB compiled and absorbed from the abyss of the Moon Cell. It is the embodiment of the power to create all things that the Mother Goddesses possess, originating approximately 8000 years ago from a goddess who already lost her name (the Goddess of Çatalhöyük), and branching to Tiamat, Cybele, Ishtar, Inanna, Anat, Astarte, Gaia, Hera, Artemis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Athena, and so forth. Many of these goddesses have been pictured with an appearance that has a mural crown on them. That is because many of these goddesses were also simultaneously the Guardian Deities of cities. |
| Merlin Soon you'll start hearing people claiming the Goddess of Demonic Beasts is the same as Tiamat. Choices
According to the Mesopotamian creation myth, they are the last children of Tiamat, the mother of all gods.
A goddess of creation in the world of Mesopotamia... It is said she's the mother who gave birth to all the gods. Dr. Roman Tiamat is one of the primordial gods of Mesopotamia. Or perhaps she should be considered a first-generation god. In Mesopotamian mythology, the universe is called Anki. “An” means “heaven and god” and “Ki” means “earth and goddess.” The goddess brings forth life, and the god rules it. That's how the relationship is. Back when what was above was not called heaven and what was beneath was not called earth, the god Abzu mated with the goddess Tiamat, and gave birth to many children, the gods. But as the children grew, they desired power, and they rebelled against Tiamat to widen the world. [...] Merlin Tiamat bit hard into Marduk, but he defeated her with a final strike from his bow. Tiamat lay there, defeated, and the gods ripped her body apart, turning it into a land that floats on the sea. That was the land of Mesopotamia, a world created from the body of the fallen deity. Dr. Roman Well, it's a pretty typical creation myth. The body of the Earth Mother is used as soil to create the world. It is a theme seen in other mythologies too. A goddess creates life. But when she turns to chaos, she becomes the enemy of humanity, the mother of Demonic Beasts. It's an Authority called Potnia Theron, the “Womb of a Hundred Beasts.” Anyone with this Authority possesses the seed of life... They can make an infinite amount of monsters, provided they have the resources. Based on the number of Demonic Beasts, the goddess to the north likely has this Authority. |
| Demeter I'm the goddess of the land, and the land has always been mother to all things. Peperoncino Mother of the land, huh. That sounds like Gaia. Peperoncino In the Greek mythology I know, she was the mother of the Earth, the gods, and everything else under the sun. She was also married to Uranus, the first god of the heavens. Demeter First, there was Chaos. Then Gaia, the land, came forth and gave birth to everything. The land has always been a mother. That's how it's supposed to be. And the sea... The sea was...also a mother. Or at least, it was supposed to be... |
| Prometheus-Hephaestus I'm sorry, I should have asked sooner: Does the concept of zero exist in Proper Human History? Holmes Yes, most assuredly. We've known about it since at least the third century. I daresay we also have a fairly deep understanding of the concept. In fact, Ms. Miyamoto over there is something of an expert on it. Musashi ... Prometheus-Hephaestus Oho, fascinating. A mathematician or philosopher would be one thing, but I never would have thought a swordfighter could reach such an understanding. A scholar would no doubt use their understanding to pass the concept on to other people as knowledge, but for a swordfighter to understand zero... I see. Then you must have attained it as a skill, rather than as knowledge. Zero. The line that lies between positive and negative. A number smaller than any decimal, and greater than any negative number. It is the void — the lack of existence. ...I see. The fact that you reached such an understanding with the sword just goes to show you humans truly are an unsolvable mystery. |
| Q: Well since we are talking about her, I want to hear bout Miyamoto Musashi. During Fate/Stay Night, there was a phrase that "Whether a path to the future or path to the past, the place it reaches its Zero" type of phrase was said in it. Does this mean Musashi's Empty Space/Kyu = Zero concept means something similar to the Root? Nasu: No, not at all actually. When I was studying the person Miyamoto Musashi historically, I found out that tale of Musashi was happening around the same period as when the concept of "Mu" from Buddhism entered into Japan recently. And thinking about it, I thought it was impressive that Musashi's Father claimed to be a Muise? during that era. And as I saw myself deeper into that side of history, I felt that in "FGO" , the place female Musashi must reach as her peak must be "Cutting that which has no form". And around that time, as I was doing Musashi's Trial Quest, I was also making plans for FGO Part 2, so I was studying info on Greece and the concept of Chaos. And at that moment, I thought, well this is something Musashi has to cut, as Muramasa mentioned, "One you are able to cut that which has no form, you show your true essence". Many different creative material makes Miyamoto Musashi appear in it, but we thought that if we are to put in Musashi, that we have to put her inside the story with a meaning to her in the story. And I thought that Musashi would have meaning if she at the end cuts through the Empty Space/Kyou, and accomplishes all things and disappears beyond the zero. And she was character that was made with that in mind, and we put in a lot of small nods to this throughout the game. So this isn't something that is related to the Root of All Magic or etc like that. |
I want to point out that there are actually several "nothingnesses" throughout the Nasuverse (like Imaginary Number Space/Void Space, Musashi's Nothingness, Chaos, Ginnungagap, the Abyss (kind of), etcetera), none of which are associated with the Root (unless they are referencing the Root directly in a scan about "nothingness," it is not about the Root, and even then calling the Root "nothingness" has baggage that doesn't fully describe it). In this case, "nothingness" refers to Imaginary Number Space (which the English translation of Fate/Grand Order calls "Void Space") which BB has control over.I've checked the Iwakura patch, and the screenshot is accurate to it. This is more like a translator's note where they're clarifying what is meant, they do it in a couple areas. It is doubtless that the phrase "the Root" in quotations refers to the Root. Especially if the phrase is "the Root" that gave rise to all of creation. It's no wonder they interpreted it that way and added that note.
Further, the description of the ability BB has a result of this is identical to what Shiki says she can do with her Root powers.
And indeed, BB was able to digitize/quantify the "nothingness." So, yeah, Fate/EXTRA CCC is saying pretty plainly that the Mother of the various Earth Goddesses (the Primordial Goddess) was the Root that gave rise to all creation and BB has this power (literally digitized it), as a result she can do the same things Shiki can do (crush the old world and superimpose a new world).
Pretty cut and dry, actually.
Two things. First, the raws say she is "the root" that gave rise to all creation, not "the root of all creation."
These are all from an entirely different game regarding an entirely different character and is focused on the word "nothingness" not the root. Moreover, the identical nature of what BB is able to do in terms of crushing the existing world with a new one is very dispositive here.
It says "the root" that gave rise to all creation. They use quotes elsewhere to signify specific terms being used, which means "the Root" is not just the root of something generically. There's only one thing it could be.
