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I'm fine with this.
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Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
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- marvel comics
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- Hulk Channeled energy that would destroy two universes when split from Banner
- Baseline 2-C feat
- Surtur intended to destroy all of Asgard and then the universe, Thor takes the hit
- Baseline Low 2-C feat
But at least we got Infinite LS, so that's something.
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- Thread starter
- #203
Yeah, which is why I'd go with High 3-A as the provisional tier, personally, since it's already implicitly accepted by the profiles, so it's pretty much just going for the next immediately avaliable thing after discarding the Yggdrasil scaling. Whether they should be higher is a discussion best left for another thread.
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Well, except for that I am still somewhat allergic to using the word "omniverse" in the wrong context, that I want a regular rendered character profile image for The Beyonder, and that I am wary of scaling the Jim Starlin cosmology to any other authors than Starlin.
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So wait, when are you gonna put the sandbox revisions on the actual profiles?
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Ok so then how dose that transfer to tier 1?
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Joke Battles
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Conclusively proven in the first thread.
Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)
Right, so, at the moment the profiles for the Marvel Comics Abstracts are all quite bad, and in pretty dire need to repairs. Not only in terms of tiering, but also of... everything, really. This thread will be Part 1 of an attempt at overhauling them. Beginning from the top (The tiers). About...
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Eternity is Low 1-A
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We can simply define "Omniverse" in the terminology tab in the verse page.
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I know eternity himself is tier 1 but I don’t get how that affects Hyperion’s feat.
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- Thread starter
- #213
Each Eternity is an Earth. An Incursion quite literally is just two instances of Eternity colliding with each other.
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Universes which have a number are Eternities.
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Hmm, ok then what about the other universal feat from the other heralds? Wouldn’t they be outliers ?
Excellence616
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- Thread starter
- #217
Not quite, since each Earth has a bunch of universes within itself, too, like the Earth Dimension, the Negative Zone, and etc. So there is a difference between feats that just vaguely affect a "universe" and feats that explicitly affect Eternity as a whole.
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So basically if a character shakes an m-body or destroys a specific dimension then that’s fine but if they were to destroy an m-body(or survive said destruction) then that would be an outlier for said hearld character?
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I guess.
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Bro, imagine being Eternity in an incursion, like seeing yourself colliding with another one of yourself...
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I'm not the biggest fan of the new Galactus page, but I agree with the profile revisions at least (just the statistics, though). Good job overall.
Also, I have some accepted Monica Rambeau stuff that'd tie into this, and even provide a supporting feat for The Beyonder due to the apparent multiversal scale.
Unless I'm mistaken, the only contradiction to this specific logic is her portrayal as one of the universe's top dogs of the new Cosmos in Starlin's work.
So, it's still incoherent, wrong (especially due to this statement), but it's incoherent in an even worse way than what you're indicating because the comics don't remotely begin to line up with the Incursions/Beyonders now, and presents universal Abstracts as a whole in a very strange light.
I'd also disregard this BS because Infinity Entity implies that Hell and the Negative Zone aren't part of any of 616's Abstracts/universal forces, which blatantly contradicts Starlin's own work. It's just too messy, and I've developed an appreciation for this wiki's attempts to get rid of this cosmology since the last thread ended.
Also, I have some accepted Monica Rambeau stuff that'd tie into this, and even provide a supporting feat for The Beyonder due to the apparent multiversal scale.
To be needlessly nitpicky (since you'd be correct regardless), we also see Infinity—presumably not the same one—in later comics. There's precedent for concepts having different power levels under the same circumstances, since the Griever has the same role as Entropy in the Seventh Cosmos but is far more important and powerful, despite the universe being no closer to its end than it was when Entropy was the personification of entropy (prior to Vell being an a-hole).
Unless I'm mistaken, the only contradiction to this specific logic is her portrayal as one of the universe's top dogs of the new Cosmos in Starlin's work.
Earth-19141 was absorbed into Warlock well before—in a relative, poorly executed and thought out sense—TLT died, which is why 616 TLT appears in Infinity Revelation alongside the other Abstracts. 19141 is a semi-annulled timeline that exists within Adam Warlock, so it wasn't part of the multiverse at the time.
So, it's still incoherent, wrong (especially due to this statement), but it's incoherent in an even worse way than what you're indicating because the comics don't remotely begin to line up with the Incursions/Beyonders now, and presents universal Abstracts as a whole in a very strange light.
I'd also disregard this BS because Infinity Entity implies that Hell and the Negative Zone aren't part of any of 616's Abstracts/universal forces, which blatantly contradicts Starlin's own work. It's just too messy, and I've developed an appreciation for this wiki's attempts to get rid of this cosmology since the last thread ended.
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Genis-Vell when he went crazy and decided to destroy Eternity?
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We are just waiting for Ultima to finish his preparations.
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I noticed feats from strange tales on the Silver Surfer page and his Celestials blog
Does that mean characters like Job Burke, Divine creator and the fallen stars will be returning on this wiki?
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- Thread starter
- #231
The Divine Creator is obviously just TOAA, so, you do the math.
As for the others: Probably someday, but I'm focusing on the more important Abstracts for the moment.
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I meant as an aspect
Oh okay
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It's just a different name for TOAA.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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@Ultima_Reality About how long will it take you to finish preparing?
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Ultima already added it yes.
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- Thread starter
- #238
I'm finishing up the remaining profiles, as it stands. Expect me to answer back in the next couple hours, most likely.
Yeah, and neither should he. Beyonder as a complete Ivory King does, but that's already included in the "all powers of the Beyonders" bit.
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How come you lowered True Oblivion's Transduality from Type 3 (his current profile) to Type 2 (your sandbox)?
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- Thread starter
- #240
So, I finished the three remaining profiles:
A few things: With regards to the Queen of Nevers' exact position in the cosmological scale, I would actually like some input here, because at the moment, I am really torn. As a high-end, one could argue that she is above even the White-Hot Room and thus presently the most powerful being in the verse aside from The One Above All. An explanation of this is in the profile.
And for the matter, I don't think her being Eternity's lover actually disproves the idea that she is this high, particularly because the notion that they must be equal in standing largely comes from the scenes where they are shown interacting, like this one, which certainly gives the impression they are comparable. It's all really cute, but ultimately it should be kept in mind that all of this is metaphor: Eternity and the Queen of Nevers aren't two giants making out, and those scenes are, in-universe, just allegorical visualizations of the interaction between two concepts (Existence and Possibility), so they really don't prove she is his equal at all.
That said, in Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #13, The Never Queen actually is shown dying alongside the Seventh Cosmos, apparently because the death of the omniverse means that there is no longer a future, and therefore no possibilities, which seems to indicate that she is indeed being treated as Eternity's complement, rather than something above him.
I think this scene is really weird, though, because the same run states that the Queen of Nevers births possibilities, as such meaning that she, in some way, exists prior to them, so her being dependent on their existence is just bizarre. Furthermore, the Kabbalah-based cosmology that Al Ewing established in Defenders: Beyond has it so possibility ultimately antedates reality and emanates it into existence, to begin with, so that makes the Never Queen dying because of the Seventh Cosmos' reboot even weirder.
Granted, Reckoning War showed that there is apparently a Never-Queen living in Overspace, who seems to have the Universal Eternity as her lover, so it's plausible that the above could be explained by her having different versions of herself across different layers of reality, meaning then that the Never-Queen which the Silver Surfer saw dying wasn't the same as the Never-Queen who lives in the Sefirot. It isn't unprecedented, mind you, given that we're shown that Death has a higher version that resides in the White-Hot Room and stands in direct duality with the Phoenix, apart from the Lady Death that exists in the omniverse but still linked to her.
As for the Molecule Man's profile... I have to say that I don't really like. It is, in fact, probably my least favorite thing ever, but further revisions to it don't belong on this thread, so I've kept it as close to its present state as possible, while trimming it down significantly because as it stands that thing is barely readable.
However, some abilities were particularly egregious, so I chose to remove them already. Existence Erasure and Mid-Godly level Healing come from intepreting this as meaning that Molecule Man can send people to Oblivion's realm, thus erasing them from all levels of existence, as well as bring them back from there.
This is pretty ridiculous, because it's just assuming that any usage of the word "oblivion" in-verse is talking about the guy, which is obviously really silly, and is a line of logic that'd lead to quite a few entities scaling above where they should be (There are a lot of times where the word "eternity" is used in reference to stuff above Eternity, for instance)
Next is Causality Manipulation, which comes from this, and honestly I don't even know where exactly the Causality Manipulate comes from, in this scene. The other justification comes from this, which is not only not Causality Manipulation but was also done by Owen after he absorbed the Beyonders, so it has no place in his base key. The same goes for a lot of the powers and scans on that tab, actually.
Law Manipulation comes from this and this, which are Physics Manipulation instead.
Conceptual Manipulation comes from his interactions with the Abstracts in Secret Wars II, which turned out to not be so trustworthy, as has already been established, so, it goes, too.
And this is it, methinks.
A few things: With regards to the Queen of Nevers' exact position in the cosmological scale, I would actually like some input here, because at the moment, I am really torn. As a high-end, one could argue that she is above even the White-Hot Room and thus presently the most powerful being in the verse aside from The One Above All. An explanation of this is in the profile.
And for the matter, I don't think her being Eternity's lover actually disproves the idea that she is this high, particularly because the notion that they must be equal in standing largely comes from the scenes where they are shown interacting, like this one, which certainly gives the impression they are comparable. It's all really cute, but ultimately it should be kept in mind that all of this is metaphor: Eternity and the Queen of Nevers aren't two giants making out, and those scenes are, in-universe, just allegorical visualizations of the interaction between two concepts (Existence and Possibility), so they really don't prove she is his equal at all.
That said, in Silver Surfer Vol. 7 #13, The Never Queen actually is shown dying alongside the Seventh Cosmos, apparently because the death of the omniverse means that there is no longer a future, and therefore no possibilities, which seems to indicate that she is indeed being treated as Eternity's complement, rather than something above him.
I think this scene is really weird, though, because the same run states that the Queen of Nevers births possibilities, as such meaning that she, in some way, exists prior to them, so her being dependent on their existence is just bizarre. Furthermore, the Kabbalah-based cosmology that Al Ewing established in Defenders: Beyond has it so possibility ultimately antedates reality and emanates it into existence, to begin with, so that makes the Never Queen dying because of the Seventh Cosmos' reboot even weirder.
Granted, Reckoning War showed that there is apparently a Never-Queen living in Overspace, who seems to have the Universal Eternity as her lover, so it's plausible that the above could be explained by her having different versions of herself across different layers of reality, meaning then that the Never-Queen which the Silver Surfer saw dying wasn't the same as the Never-Queen who lives in the Sefirot. It isn't unprecedented, mind you, given that we're shown that Death has a higher version that resides in the White-Hot Room and stands in direct duality with the Phoenix, apart from the Lady Death that exists in the omniverse but still linked to her.
As for the Molecule Man's profile... I have to say that I don't really like. It is, in fact, probably my least favorite thing ever, but further revisions to it don't belong on this thread, so I've kept it as close to its present state as possible, while trimming it down significantly because as it stands that thing is barely readable.
However, some abilities were particularly egregious, so I chose to remove them already. Existence Erasure and Mid-Godly level Healing come from intepreting this as meaning that Molecule Man can send people to Oblivion's realm, thus erasing them from all levels of existence, as well as bring them back from there.
This is pretty ridiculous, because it's just assuming that any usage of the word "oblivion" in-verse is talking about the guy, which is obviously really silly, and is a line of logic that'd lead to quite a few entities scaling above where they should be (There are a lot of times where the word "eternity" is used in reference to stuff above Eternity, for instance)
Next is Causality Manipulation, which comes from this, and honestly I don't even know where exactly the Causality Manipulate comes from, in this scene. The other justification comes from this, which is not only not Causality Manipulation but was also done by Owen after he absorbed the Beyonders, so it has no place in his base key. The same goes for a lot of the powers and scans on that tab, actually.
Law Manipulation comes from this and this, which are Physics Manipulation instead.
Conceptual Manipulation comes from his interactions with the Abstracts in Secret Wars II, which turned out to not be so trustworthy, as has already been established, so, it goes, too.
And this is it, methinks.
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