Removal of Wario/DK's Keys

[Bobsican]

And? We already went over that, being a crossover means nothing if they're the same verse from start to finish.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

DKC is definitely the same verse as the Mario Bros, but the feats often shown are lacking despite a lot of characters being seen as almost as strong as DK. Obviously, I'd like to see the keys get merged, but it's just often too difficult to convince; can't really force other staff members. So it seems safest to have DK keep his Donkey Kong | Mario Bros keys.

Yes, but these feats were casual. That moon punch was done by a single one, I have no idea why you're treating this as DK's peak. DK having a key for his games and his own series would objectively imply that these are separate a canon/time/form etc.

Key: For characters who have transformation stages/power-ups or who become stronger through certain points of the story, insert those transformations/power-ups/timelines here in bold.

You can't have both. Either DK only scales to his own series or scales to the Mario cast, you cannot have both.

The scale isn't good. It's still relying solely on crossovers being applied back to everyone back.

Not a valid reason. Either display a contradiction or we just use scaling. I don't give a **** when they're born within the same planet in Yoshi's Island DS and had their first game in Donkey Kong.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Just why, why do you consider Mario and Donkey Kong being separate? They are from the same franchise, no reason AT ALL to have separate keys.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Can we please stop claiming it's a crossover? Nintendo already established that they are part of the same universe with Yoshi's Island DS solidifying that. Yes, DK has his own series but so does Yoshi, Wario, and Luigi. In short, every game he appears with Mario doesn't make it a crossover. That being said, I have to agree with DDM. I have no qualms with Donkey, Diddy, and Dixie scaling due to how prominent they are. It's just that the other Kongs sans Chunky due to being stronger is where I have my doubts. They just didn't appear enough to make it less controversial. Since not alot of staff have given their input on this, I think it's best to leave the keys the way they are until then. But you can add an additional key for Diddy if you like.

 

[00potato]

Because they don’t appear often , wouldn’t that make the scaling less of a problem? They lack major anti-feats and they only really can scale to the leader of the bunch. (Except for the weaker ones.)

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Dino said some understandable things, but I still don't entirely agree. Why not just scale everybody who's not fodder? Giving them separate keys was a bad decision in the first place, so we should correct it now.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

But it also makes for a lack of believability and justification to scale to them since Lanky Kong never fought his bosses directly in DK64. How are we sure he's on par with the other Kongs, who fought the Snowmads, the Tiki Tribe, and squared off with the star children Mario and co. in combative sports titles such as Strikers, Hoops, Sport Mix, and Aces?

 

[00potato]

You mean lanky? Sure I don’t know if Lanky scales but the main point of the thread was combining the keys. The issues of whether to scale Lanky to the main hongs would exist even with the tier 6 key. Since the complaint will still be valid. If we can agree on the key removal, Lanky’s scaling can come later (I would assume Unknown, Possibly on the same level as the kongs.) Tiny probably would not scale, that can be definite.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Having the implication that Donkey Kong is a seperate person or continuity from the OG Mario series just seems entirely wrong. There's no reason for them not to be the same from a VS outlook.

That's just all I'll say.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

No one is saying they are a separate continuity. It's just the worry of certain characters sharing the same stats with more prominent characters in the verse to justify it.

 

[00potato]

What is the problem with that?
The scaling was mostly worked out already by Weeb. If you want to fix the scaling, that is fine but as long as the two franchises are in the same continuity, you can’t give them separate keys and scaling.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

But it also makes for a lack of believability and justification to scale to them since Lanky Kong never fought his bosses directly in DK64.

Which is why prior to this comment I literally said I am fine without scaling Lanky to the main Kongs since he nevee directly harms the opponent. Hell, not even Lanky's own profile is being scaled to any character. There's a reason I said I would only scale if they have things to prove it. Chunky and Kiddy being in one game is a good thing, means they have no contradictions at all.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Lanky does have a higher strength stat than Diddy, which would arguably make him scale. But I agree with Dino that it's mostly all the one note characters is where contradictions lie. And it's mostly Matt who's making vague claims about "Franchise" and "Crossovers". I think all the "Composite keys" should be renamed to Mario Bros to avoid confusion though.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Lanky does have a higher strength stat than Diddy, which would arguably make him scale.

And how do we know the strength stat refers to ap? What if it's a Super Mario Bros 2 situation where the strength stat refers to lifting strength?

I think all the "Composite keys" should be renamed to Mario Bros to avoid confusion though.

Name of the key doesn't matter, regardless of how you intent it, making them seperate keys for seperate scaling due to a seperate series means you absolutely cannot scale DK to the Mario cast. Again, pick one, as a key implies otherwise. Is it a seperate version of DK? A separate point in time? A different canon? A power-up? These are what we use keys for. To say we should make a key for a series and give a character what's essentially a varying tier would just outright make zero sense from a canon stand point. Under no circumstances should a series with the same canons have separate keys for seperate series, that implies he's weaker in those games despite always being 4-A in any other.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

If the issue is giving them a high tier in itself just show the anti feat in question that messes with their tiering, or this would be the same as me saying that I don't think Petey Piranha should be 4-A because he's in Mario games without that high of a tier (I'm ignoring the spin off since no clue if he appears in any prominent one that gives him scaling).

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

If the issue is giving them a high tier in itself just show the anti feat in question that messes with their tiering, or this would be the same as me saying that I don't think Petey Piranha should be 4-A because he's in Mario games without that high of a tier (I'm ignoring the spin off since no clue if he appears in any prominent one that gives him scaling).

What anti feat?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Strength stat in DK 64 is how much damage you do to enemies via punching; a lot of enemies in DK64 have notable pools of health that take multiple hits to take out.

And actually, I don't think every mini-boss should scale from Mario as I mentioned on numerous threads before; such as Boom Boom or Pom Pom. In Petey's case, he not only is an occurring boss, he also has a Shine sprite empowerment and was in the cutscenes seen as threatening.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Strength stat in DK 64 is how much damage you do to enemies via punching; a lot of enemies in DK64 have notable pools of health that take multiple hits to take out.

Then what's the issue with Lanky then, lol. Backscaling is a thing.

And actually, I don't think every mini-boss should scale from Mario as I mentioned on numerous threads before; such as Boom Boom or Pom Pom.

I still think they do, but that's unrelated.

In Petey's case, he not only is an occurring boss, he also has a Shine sprite empowerment and was in the cutscenes seen as threatening.

I agree with Petey scaling, however a Shine does not empower you like a Power Star. It's never stated and has been disproven in The Thousand Year Door.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Also, let's take a look at our DK page and their feats, shall we?

Wizpig: Planet level for reality warping his planet. I have no idea where the feat is, but either way, you only race him and never fight him.

DK: Country level for his calc on punching the moon. However, this was a very casual feat. Literally done by a single punch, thus casual. Hell, Diddy does it with a headbutt on ACCIDENT. So it should be obvious that this is nowhere near their peak. This pretty much the Roshi thread argument in terms of using outliers as the basic argument when they didn't contradict themselves.

Lord Fredrik: Froze DK's island. Considering how the ice dragon did it by simply flying around, this isn't their peak either.

And that's it. So why exactly is scaling them such an issue when one feat is from a guy you never fight, the second is done with a casual punch and accidental headbutt, and third by simply flying. These aren't contradictions.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I agree with Petey scaling, however a Shine does not empower you like a Power Star. It's never stated and has been disproven in The Thousand Year Door.

^This

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

I am fine with the removal

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Bump

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

What's left now?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Mods saying yes.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Tag some mods then.

 

[Bobsican]

Only staff using the tagging will actually notify the respective users, then again.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Only staff using the tagging will actually notify the respective users, then again.

Oh, I didn't know that.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Mods saying yes.

Well, you can write in somebody's message wall.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Bump

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

Will @Dino_Ranger_Black ever reply once more?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Dino that it's mostly all the one note characters is where contradictions lie. And it's mostly Matt who's making vague claims about "Franchise" and "Crossovers". I think all the "Composite keys" should be renamed to Mario Bros to avoid confusion though.

Would this be an acceptable compromise for the rest of you? To simply call the two keys "Donkey Kong Games" and "Mario Games" or somesuch?

Matthew has a very good point that the DK Crew have never been portrayed at anywhere near a peak Mario level within their own games, due to their creators not caring about consistency or scaling.

It may not exactly be a crossover when Mario and Donkey Kong interact, but the same principle largely applies.

 

[Bobsican]

Also, let's take a look at our DK page and their feats, shall we?

Wizpig: Planet level for reality warping his planet. I have no idea where the feat is, but either way, you only race him and never fight him.

DK: Country level for his calc on punching the moon. However, this was a very casual feat. Literally done by a single punch, thus casual. Hell, Diddy does it with a headbutt on ACCIDENT. So it should be obvious that this is nowhere near their peak. This pretty much the Roshi thread argument in terms of using outliers as the basic argument when they didn't contradict themselves.

Lord Fredrik: Froze DK's island. Considering how the ice dragon did it by simply flying around, this isn't their peak either.

And that's it. So why exactly is scaling them such an issue when one feat is from a guy you never fight, the second is done with a casual punch and accidental headbutt, and third by simply flying. These aren't contradictions.




Name of the key doesn't matter, regardless of how you intent it, making them seperate keys for seperate scaling due to a seperate series means you absolutely cannot scale DK to the Mario cast. Again, pick one, as a key implies otherwise. Is it a seperate version of DK? A separate point in time? A different canon? A power-up? These are what we use keys for. To say we should make a key for a series and give a character what's essentially a varying tier would just outright make zero sense from a canon stand point. Under no circumstances should a series with the same canons have separate keys for seperate series, that implies he's weaker in those games despite always being 4-A in any other.

By the above I don't think that's a good compromise, either the DK cast fully scales or the key is best being removed. A better compromise would be perhaps something like "At least 6-B, likely 4-A", and as said before they actually have better reasons to scale to the Mario cast than Waluigi, who already gets around fine with a "Likely 4-A".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I stand by my opinion of giving keys to the DK characters who actually have participated on Crossovers with Mario and have feats that indicate scaling.

Taking those feats and then applying to everyone back is hella dumb.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Oh hey, thanks for bumping it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The problem with Mario Bros is that Mario is pretty much the Superman of video game characters; he's really whacky and all over the place when it comes power scaling or tiers. And it does have continuity for sure given the constant references to previous games and hints for future releases, as well as hints for some growth in the RPG games especially. Or even taking the DK Rap lyrics seriously; He's Bigger, Faster, and Stronger Too! But there's also Mario having a couple Tier 4 feats and one Massively FTL+ feats as babies. And even the baby Mario Bros are seen as about as strong as their adult selves in Partners in Time. But having a bunch of Tier 9 anti feats mainly from gameplay, extremely casual Tier 7 to Tier 6 feats, and some occasional solid Tier 2 feats make things far more complicated. Mario cast are a troupe of actors according to Miyamoto and they only demonstrate feats their stage/game design directors allow them to. Which also varies from game to game.

I think having Donkey Kong Country | Mario Bros keys works. And it's what Dino prefers, with Donkey Kong, and Diddy Kong having those keys especially. But I got nothing against the "At least 6-B, possibly 4-A" if the keys need to be merged.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

But I got nothing against the "At least 6-B, possibly 4-A" if the keys need to be merged.

Honestly, I am 100% fine with this. I just want the keys to go.

 

[Bobsican]

Why possibly? They have better reasons to scale than Waluigi, who managed to get a likely rating, so to remain consistent that should at least apply here as well from a glance.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Scaling isn't even my main thing, I just want the keys g o n e. Because keys for separate series means different characters.