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Removal of Wario/DK's Keys

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DatOneWeeb

DatOneWeeb

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Okay so Donkey Kong has a Donkey Kong Country key and a composite key. Wario has a composite key with a Wario Land key. Why? Both of these game series are still canon within the main series, I have no idea why we have them as separate keys. There's nothing to prove otherwise. We don't give Luigi nor Yoshi keys for their own game series. The only issue is the scaling for the DK characters, but I guess you can decide if you want the DKC characters to scale to Donkey Kong.

Agree: DatOneWeeb, ElixirBlue, Dust_Collector, NotAMarioFan(lol), 00potato, Maverick_Zero_X, Starsprite53, Bobsican, GiverOfThePeace, Ican'tthinkof1goodname, Foxthefox100, Psycomaster35, Da_Lunge_Fish, Lonkitt, Stalker-Maggot (15)

Netural (For DK): YuriAkuto, I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die, DarkDragonMedeus(?), Dino_Ranger_Black(?) (4?)

Disagree: Matthew_Schroeder (1)
 
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I agree with the removal

Tho, if you think there is an issue with scaling to DK characters, that could be addressed in another thread. But definitely for Wario.
 
I swear this has been agreed on several times before. I still don't know why we treat Wario and DK games as their own universe so count me in agreement for the removal.
 
Oh and one more thing, Cranky should not have keys. I have no idea why he's 8-C as young but then scales to DK as an old man.
 
I agree for Wario, his whole game series is a direct sequel to a Mario game.

Neutral on DK.
 
DKC would still not be a key. Considering how it's a spin-off to the original DK games on the arcade and Gameboy. DKC characters appear in sport games and Mario Party. Super Mario Odyssey has Pauline outright state she's been captured in the past. DK in the gameboy shows DK and DK Jr. in the Mario world. Etc etc, you get the point.
 
I think Dino preferred to keep the old keys mostly because of scaling issues. I agree that Donkey Kong is canonically far above his Country level feat with scaling in mind, but I know people are reluctant to make all DK cast characters Tier 4 and perhaps assume DK holds back or doesn't use all his power. But I'm unsure how to handle it and would need Dino's input. It's already difficult to defend the current state of the Mario cast. And actually, the original DK being Cranky Kong was actually a retcon. As most recent games point to the actual DK being the original. And Mario isn't that much older than Jumpman; unless we want to rely on Game Theory that is. So honestly, the classic DK key should be removed from Cranky's profile.

Wario on the other hand, he has a lot more connections outside of sports. I can see his Wario Land key being removed rather easily. And his Low 5-B feat is still solid if push comes to shove. But Wario also has his Low 2-C feat via Black Jewel even if an outlier ATM. He is the main villain of Mario Land 2.

@Dino_Ranger_Black would you like to help out? Though I can understand you're stressed with these topics.
 
I agree with those changes. DK may not have that many tier 4 feats by himself, but the powerscaling is more than blatant, so I can see the DKC cast going to tier 4 as well.
 
Keys should not be made just because of scalling, that implies those characters are for whatever reason weaker in that game. It's headcanon.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
perhaps assume DK holds back or doesn't use all his power.
Click to expand...
Seems extremely unlikely when K. Rool was able to capture Donkey Kong in Diddy's Quest and Donkey Kong Country 3. No reason for him to hold back and let himself be captured.


DarkDragonMedeus said:
And actually, the original DK being Cranky Kong was actually a retcon. As most recent games point to the actual DK being the original.
Click to expand...
Citation? Cranky already referenced the older games himself, and the DKC manual just straight up says it. I'm aware of how extremely ****** up it is. Cranky is the first, DK Jr is the second, and modern DK is the third. Despite modern DK being the same age as Mario and everyone else. However I'm going to just assume the Kongs age differently, since Donkey Kong Jr is already an adult in Donkey Kong 3 (that one no one played).
 
I don't remember, but I argued about Cranky Kong being a Star Child a long time ago, but I got called out saying it was DK. Dark649 made mentions of it and those statements about Cranky being the original Donkey Kong came from the DKC games back when Rare worked on DKC. But most of the Mario Vs Donkey Kong series literally has Pauline still looking young and it being Mario and Donkey Kong lacking the original design. And it allegedly taking place around the same time as other Mario games of the time.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But most of the Mario Vs Donkey Kong series literally has Pauline still looking young and it being Mario and Donkey Kong lacking the original design.
Click to expand...
We can still see Mario's current design even way before Mario vs Donkey Kong was out. I know aging makes it confusing, however nothing officially retcons this.



Even though these at the time were from when Rare developed the series, they never really changed this. New Donk City even has paintings of Mario, Pauline, and Cranky's original designs.
 
I am definitely 100% in agreement with DarkDragonMedeus here. The Donkey Kong Country games are pretty removed from Mario short of Cranky Kong's appearance, and beyond a few cameos and references and a few crossovers that one time the two series are pretty much separate.

I am fine with not giving Wario a key but DK characters definitely should keep them.
 
Oh yeah. Diddy Kong, K. Rool, Kremlings, Cranky Kong and Funky Kong have appeared in various Mario games as well, and those are DKC originals. So unless there's actual proof of it being a retcon, it's literal headcanon. Otherwise, the Kongs scale from Cranky contending with Mario in DK 1981/Gameboy, Donkey Kong fighting Mario and other Mario characters, and the others from appearing in spin-offs.
 
Nobody is saying there's a retcon dude, just that the actual DK Country games are very separate from Mario and have wildly different levels of feats and so they should have a separate key.
 
Not a good reason my guy, varying feats doesn't warrant a different key. Especially when DKC is just a sequal to Donkey Kong.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Not a good reason my guy, varying feats doesn't warrant a different key. Especially when DKC is just a sequal to Donkey Kong.
Click to expand...
1. They literally do, though. If two series that are tangencially connected so wildly disparate feats then yeah, separating the two in keys is advised.

2. That's irrelevent, Donkey Kong was made into its own series with the DKC games, that the Mario games also branched out from the original DK is irrelevant to my point.
 
> Ignores how canon scaling works and DKC characters appearing in Mario Kart, Party, Sluggers, Strikers, etc
Kek. They're still a part of the same verse, literally has no reason not to scale other than your own headcanon.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
> Ignores how canon scaling works and DKC characters appearing in Mario Kart, Party, Sluggers, Strikers, etc
Kek. They're still a part of the same verse, literally has no reason not to scale other than your own headcanon.
Click to expand...
I acknowledged it, did you read my post? I quite literally said "beyond a few cameos and references and a few crossovers that one time the two series are pretty much separate"

Like, yeah no shit DK is in the sports and kart games, that was my whole point. But the actual main games are 100% separate at this point.

And again you show no comprehension of the word "headcanon". This is not a headcanon, nobody is even talking about theories or speculation here, just that on a purely basic level the series are primarily separate.

And I explained the reason not to scale. Because the feats are completely separate in scale.
 
I'm going to argue basic ******* scaling, DK and Cranky do not just suddenly go from 4-A to Tier 6 in canon from game to game.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
I'm going to argue basic ******* scaling, DK and Cranky do not just suddenly go from 4-A to Tier 6 in canon from game to game.
Click to expand...
Cranky is a old man who can barely stand lol. He definitely doesn't scale.

DK's best feat in the entire series is punching the moon. Scaling to Tier 4 just because he raced Mario at Kar is ridiculous.
 
He's scaling him cause fighting Mario in party games where you get power stars as rewards + Mario vs. Donkey Kong series, not specifically Mario Kart.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
He's scaling him cause fighting Mario in party games where you get power stars as rewards + Mario vs. Donkey Kong series, not specifically Mario Kart.
Click to expand...
Party Games shouldn't be used for scaling, the whole thing is that everyone can fight everyone in the various minigames. Mario vs Donkey Kong is obviously better but it's literally the only time it happened in a legitimate game.

Beyond that it's all separate, as I explained in my points. I used Mario Kart for exaggeration, because half of Blaze's points so far have been the existence of crossovers.
 
Just to argue regarding Mario vs DK:

Isn't the game like, toy based? Not a true fight and all.
 
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