Removal of Wario/DK's Keys

[00potato]

Donkey Kong better be in the next Super Robot Wars.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

God this is annoying. Even on a thread that should be simple.

Anyways, I agree with this. DKC should definitely be part of the main canon. I don't see why Yoshi's Island, a more wacky platformer located on an isle is any different from DKC, a platformer located on an isle. I guess the only difference is Mario characters appear in it but so does DK.

But whatever. If the main reason why DKC is being debated right now is because of how you feel about the scaling then that seems pretty personal. What significant, unbiased perspective warrants DKC being a separate property and worth being given a key that causes a divide between it and the canonicity of the overall Mario franchise since I'm to assume "Composite" would stay.

Wario would have just as much reason to keep his divide given like DK in the series titled after him Mario has only canonically appeared once. Hell, DK has at least had Diddy appear in other games Wario's own repertoire of characters and enemies has yet to appear outside his own series within Mario.

But go off, I guess. I'm done.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Donkey Kong scales because he's one of the Seven Star Children; and Donkey Kong becomes more of a supporting character Mario Party 5 and beyond who's purpose is to be the counter part of DK who often punches coins out Koopa Kids and saves the player from Bowser in Party Mode. But the Seven Star Children lore and statements on being Mario's physical superior should be the actual reasons as Sports and Parties are notorious for their inconsistencies. Also, I agree that people like Chunky Kong or K Rool are indeed Donkey Kong's equal or even superior in the former's case especially. But the problem stems from Cranky, Dixie, Lanky, and Tiny Kong.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Isn't the fight not scaling him tho? The mech would scale, but DK itself doesn't physically harm Mario nor does he tank his blows.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If you are being unbiased then you would recognize that two characters from two primarily separate series that only show up together in crossovers and have wildly different feats shouldn't scale without keys.

This is simple. People aren't even denying it, we just say there needs to be a reasonable degree of separation.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Isn't the fight not scaling him tho? The mech would scale, but DK itself doesn't physically harm Mario nor does he tank his blows.

The way you're supposed to harm him is by Mario lifting and throwing something inside of the mech and you see DK's sprite go into a blue colored sprite after he's hit

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Party Games shouldn't be used for scaling, the whole thing is that everyone can fight everyone in the various minigames.

DONKEY KONG SURGE





Much like Waluigi is scaled to the cast via spin-offs.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also speaking of Wario his Tier 5 feat is pure bullshit and needs to be resolved. It doesn't fit any storm standards anymore.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Isn't the fight not scaling him tho? The mech would scale, but DK itself doesn't physically harm Mario nor does he tank his blows.

He can survive his own projectiles and they harm Mario. Barrels have harmed other bosses in DKC.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

But the problem stems from Cranky, Dixie, Lanky, and Tiny Kong.

Cranky is playable in Tropical Freeze, proving he still has fight. Dixie fought K. Rool twice and saved Donkey Kong and Diddu Kong. Does Lanky and Tiny have anything contradicting?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Throwing barrels at someone is something you credit to the people throwing objects, not the objects being thrown. So that is solid. The Barrels themselves don't have anything special, but it can be assumed DK Throws them with legit strong force. Same with Mario.

And no, it's not really a storm feat is what the Low 5-B calc is. It's someone punching the ground hard enough to disperse clouds; a solid Kinetic energy feat. So it is solid.

@DatOneWeeb They're currently Low 6-B scaling from Diddy Kong's feat as they aren't fully on par with K Rool. Dixie uses his own CannonBalls and throws them back into his Blunderpuss. And in the end of DKC2, they actually couldn't beat K Rool and needed to be rescued when DK broke out of his ropes to punch K Rool. Cranky is also Low 6-B. I need to rewatch the DK 64 fight, but DK and Chunky are the only ones who actually match his strength. Tiny just sticks feathers in his toes; literally chip damaging and like a Bee Sting scenerio. Forgot what Lanky does, but I know his page is really bad ATM. I don't think anyone would mind if he's Low 6-B scaling from Diddy for now.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Dixie uses his own CannonBalls and throws them back into his Blunderpuss.

Dixie (and Kiddy) can throw barallels hard enough to actually harm K. Rool. DK nor Diddy do anything in this batte. She should also be comparable to Diddy at the very least, who can physically harm K. Rool in the first game.

but DK and Chunky are the only ones who actually match his strength. Tiny just sticks feathers in his toes; literally chip damaging and like a Bee Sting scenerio.

I'm fine with not using specifcs like Tiny if she has nothing to actually prove she can be comparable to any other Kong. The others I listed though should still scale to main DK.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

What about Dixie being able to harm K Rool?


Edit: Blaze cease ninjaing

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, a Low 6-B harming a 6-B is with barrels is consistent. But I'd prefer Dino's input. I'm overall neutral and would be for; they have more reason to scale than characters like Boom Boom or Pom Pom tbh. But still, a lot of stuff have been making me not want to really touch topics.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Just gonna list the Kong scaling.

Donkey Kong: Is one of the 7 Star Children, who are already born powerful. He's fought Mario, and physically punched Bowser as shown above. Fought Rabbid Kong who's also faced off the Mario cast.

Diddy Kong: Has harmed K. Rool, who's physically stronger than Donkey Kong. He's also appeared in Mario spin-offs. Party and Strikers involving physical strikes. Seeing as he isn't a fodder character, this should be fine.

Cranky Kong: Also fought Mario during the original game and in its sequel. Should be comparable to his Rabbid self who fought Rabbid Kong.

K. Rool: Consistently fights DK and has proven at times to have beaten him.

Dixie: Fought and harmed K. Rool.

Chunky Kong: Stronger than DK.

Kiddy Kong: Harmed K. Rool. I also recall being able to use Dixie/Kiddy as a projectile if you throw each other.

Those who do not scale:

Lanky: Does not harm K. Rool, he makes him trip from a banana peel.

Tiny: Tickles K. Rool, does not harm him.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with this

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In regards to the Wario Calc: It doesn't matter that it was a punch, the calculation formulas involving the clouds and the map scaling are all outdated and real calc people should look into it more. Chrono Trigger was 5-A due to World Map scaling and it has been thoroughly downgraded too, for instance, so that's going to happen at one point.

Second: Scaling to freaking Rabbids is out of the question. Did you miss the last thread where the game was agreed to be non-canon? Are you just ignoring that?

Third: DK scaling to Mario in crossovers is not something I object, I object to this being his default key. His default key should be only feats in his actual DK Country games and not crossover games with Mario.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Scaling to freaking Rabbids is out of the question. Did you miss the last thread where the game was agreed to be non-canon? Are you just ignoring that?

Says who, never was that agreed.

DK scaling to Mario in crossovers is not something I object, I object to this being his default key. His default key should be only feats in his actual DK Country games and not crossover games with Mario.

We are not making keys for canon crossovers. They scale, all of them do. We aren't limiting them to their own series, that's stupid.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Says who, never was that agreed.

The staff who agreed in the last thread where it was rejected.

We are not making keys for canon crossovers. They scale, all of them do. We aren't limiting them to their own series, that's stupid.

We literally do make keys for crossovers my dude. The "Scaling" via crossovers is not applicable to the mainline DK Country games as they clearly exist on very different levels of feats.

And it's not stupid, it's called being reasonable and desiring accuracy.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Ok so I need to understand how the standards work, cause I'm seeing and hearing two diff things, I see that keys for canon crossovers is a thing, but then I see profiles with no keys that uses crossover feats

Spyro

Spyro the Dragon is a young purple dragon and the main, titular protagonist of the Spyro the Dragon series created by Insomniac Games and owned by Activision. As told in an interview with Sparx by the Dragon News Network, it was said that Sparx used to crawl around Spyro's egg when he was a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

To quote a dead meme
"Kowalski, analysis"

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I can respond to points if you feel tired

 

[DatOneWeeb]

We literally do make keys for crossovers my dude. The "Scaling" via crossovers is not applicable to the mainline DK Country games as they clearly exist on very different levels of feats.

No, because these "crossovers" (despite existing within the same verse) are canon with each other. This isn't like Dante in SMT. The Donkey Kong and other characters we see in any other Mario and/or DK game is the exact same character. Different feats is an invalid argument because it ignores canon scaling. This is the same reason why splitting Mario and Paper Mario stopped being a thing, different feats don't mean jack.

The staff who agreed in the last thread where it was rejected.

Says the two mods when two others were fine with it being canon? Uhuh.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, because these "crossovers" (despite existing within the same verse) are canon with each other. This isn't like Dante in SMT. The Donkey Kong and other characters we see in any other Mario and/or DK game is the exact same character. Different feats is an invalid argument because it ignores canon scaling.

Dante in SMT is probably getting deleted eventually because he isn't canon even to SMT so bad example.

The rest of your argument doesn't address my point at all. The two series are primarily separate outside of crossovers and have wildly different degrees of feats. Thus they should be separate as two keys.

This is the same reason why splitting Mario and Paper Mario stopped being a thing, different feats don't mean jack.

That was wrong then and it is still wrong, and it's getting reverted at some point. Paper Mario is explicitly a different character than mainline Mario and scaling the two is extraordinarily dumb.

No, what is actually happening is that the Mario Crowd doesn't care about little things such a consistent, varying portrayals, retcons, canonicity, or outliers, or honesty. They just want their favorite series to be as strong as possible to they ignore anything that inconveniences them. But thankfully people are coming around already.

Says the two mods when two others were fine with it being canon? Uhuh.

Yes. We mods decided it wasn't going to be accepted since it doesn't fit any criteria to be accepted.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Oh yeah, should I even talk about why the feats themselves does not mean this is their peak?

The two feats come from DK punching the moon/Diddy headbutting it and Fredrik freezing DK island. DK punched the moon out of orbit with a single punch, and he sure as hell didn't struggle with it. Diddy's was an accident and he bonked his head. Fredrik used a machine to freeze the island.

So explain to me why a casual feat would just suddenly nullify their scaling. Did DK struggle with that punch? No. Did Diddy have to put all of his might into that headbutt? No. So why are these taken as peak feats?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oh yeah, should I even talk about why the feats themselves does not mean this is their peak?

Irrelevant to my point, I'm sure we could find plenty of evidence that DK is way weaker than 6-B if we were being honest and looking through his games.

So explain to me why a casual feat would just suddenly nullify their scaling. Did DK struggle with that punch? No. Did Diddy have to put all of his might into that headbutt? No. So why are these taken as peak feats?

Show me a single feat in the whole of Mario where a guy punching produces the same effect actually.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Dante in SMT is probably getting deleted eventually because he isn't canon even to SMT so bad example.

> "Probably"
> Not deleted
Over.

The rest of your argument doesn't address my point at all. The two series are primarily separate outside of crossovers and have wildly different degrees of feats. Thus they should be separate as two keys.

Casual feats =/= Peak

That was wrong then and it is still wrong, and it's getting reverted at some point. Paper Mario is explicitly a different character than mainline Mario and scaling the two is extraordinarily dumb.

If it's not already done, then don't use it as an argument. Argument null.

Yes. We mods decided it wasn't going to be accepted since it doesn't fit any criteria to be accepted.

Two v Two, your input isn't automatically taken over the others.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I've also seen people take issue to the moon calc.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

So Matt doesn't wanna acknowledge that these are casual feats done via single attacks. Good to know. Use an argument, I don't want strawmans.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If it's not already done, then don't use it as an argument. Argument null.

Yeah but it's going to happen. Just like all of the other lies in the Mario profiles are getting removed with time too. It's only a matter of time.

Two v Two, your input isn't automatically taken over the others.

No admin or mod explictly agreed to keep it as canon, and Ant also agreed with it being acceptable. So if you just want to use numbers there you're at a disadvantage too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So Matt doesn't wanna acknowledge that these are casual feats done via single attacks. Good to know. Use an argument, I don't want strawmans.

If they are better than any other physical feat that DK's ever done in his whole series it doesn't matter, only makes it worse actually.

And again you have yet to address my main argument for scaling needing to be separate into keys.

 

[00potato]

Why does the level of feats have bearing on what is canonical, that is such a random and somewhat reductive restriction. That isn’t what decides canon, canon is decided by what makes sense in story and what the creators decide.
We could easily apply that logic to any old-school Mario game.

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

unless we want to rely on Game Theory that is.

Really, Medues? What is this, 2018? Grow up.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why does the level of feats have bearing on what is canonical, that is such a random and somewhat reductive restriction. That isn’t what decides canon, canon is decided by what makes sense in story and what the creators decide.

That is not my argument! At all! Which you would understand if I wasn't being misquoted by Blaze.

My argument is that Donkey Kong Country is, for all intents and purposes, a separate franchise from Super Mario Bros at Nintendo, albeit one that has frequent crossovers. The two series had the same origin point, the original 1981 arcade game, but have since headed to wildly different directions. And as such I think it is best if the two remain separate for the most part, because separate they are in modern games outside of crossovers.

Therefore, while I am fine with scaling DK based on his showings in crossovers, those should have a separate key.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

> [FUTURE MARIO REVISIONS THAT HAVEN'T EVEN MADE CAN BE USED AS AN ARGUMENT]
Again, if it's not already accepted, I don't want to hear it.

No admin or mod explictly agreed to keep it as canon, and Ant also agreed with it being acceptable. So if you just want to use numbers there you're at a disadvantage too.

Yeah I don't want this to go from Megabug thread 2.

If they are better than any other physical feat that DK's ever done in his whole series it doesn't matter, only makes it worse actually.

Do I need to keep repeating it's done casually? God damn Matt, a feat isn't a peak display of power. Hell, how does a casual feat even begin to contradict canon scaling? Your entire argument stems on "no scaling them is an outlier". Canon crossovers are a thing, can, and have been used. Hell, look at Spyro's page as listed above. He's scaling to Crash. They're still part of the same overall franchise. There's no reason why they can't other than you gripping to a casual feat like this is what the Kong's can only do. Keys are made if they are separate forms or characters. They are not.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Really, Medues? What is this, 2018? Grow up.

Insults are uncalled for.

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Insults are uncalled for.

That wasn't an insult.
Or at least it wasn't supposed to be.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Again, if it's not already accepted, I don't want to hear it.

That's fine, but you will hear it. What you want isn't what you'll get.

Yeah I don't want this to go from Megabug thread 2.

You're the one who brought it up in the first place, don't play the victim card. It wasn't accepted there so it's irrelevant to your claims now. Besides, clearly you don't find it necessary to argue.

God damn Matt, a feat isn't a peak display of power. Hell, how does a casual feat even begin to contradict canon scaling?

Already addressed how. How casual or serious the feat is is completely irrelevant to the point I'm making. You just invented that my argument was that the feat was DK's peak strength and started attacking the strawman.

So there, you proved it's not a full strength feat. The nonexistent Matt is thoroughly defeated, well done. Can we go back to talking for real, though?

Canon crossovers are a thing, can, and have been used

Yes with caveats. In this case the wildly different power levels of both series should require a scaling.

Hell, look at Spyro's page as listed above. He's scaling to Crash.

I wasn't aware, thanks for notifying me. I'll be sure to remove that as well because it's wrong as all hell.

They're still part of the same overall franchise

They're really not, Spyro and Crash crossed over in one non-canon game and beyond that it's only been cameos. They're not remotely in the same universe looking at the actual games.

There's no reason why they can't other than you gripping to a casual feat like this is what the Kong's can only do. Keys are made if they are separate forms or characters

Blaze is unfamiliar with the concept of separate keys for characters who have different feats under different stories, authors or canons it seems.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

@Matthew_Schroeder You don't seem to know the canon of Crash or Spyro but I do and them scaling is correct because they can fight each other evenly in the two crossover games

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Already addressed how. How casual or serious the feat is is completely irrelevant to the point I'm making. You just invented that my argument was that the feat was DK's peak strength and started attacking the strawman.

Because your argument is quite literally based off of different feats, thus no scaling. It's not a strawman. My entire point is the best feats in that same series being casual doesn't nullify the scaling at all.

I wasn't aware, thanks for notifying me. I'll be sure to remove that as well because it's wrong as all hell.

Okay, then until then, I can still use this an argument, regardless of future revisions.

That's fine, but you will hear it. What you want isn't what you'll get.

Then my argument stands on that separation from feats isn't an argument as this was done in the past. Until then, my argument on this is valid.

They're really not, Spyro and Crash crossed over in one non-canon game and beyond that it's only been cameos. They're not remotely in the same universe looking at the actual games.

This was about Mario and Donkey Kong, not Crash and Spyro. Those two are consistently in the same verse.

Blaze is unfamiliar with the concept of separate keys for characters who have different feats under different stories, authors or canons it seems.

Matt is unfamiliar with the concepts that this applies to characters who get stronger, different versions of characters, and that my argument stems from all the same canon. Nice false equivalency.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matthew_Schroeder You don't seem to know the canon of Crash or Spyro but I do and them scaling is correct because they can fight each other evenly in the two crossover games

It's a crossover game lol it's not canon.