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Matthew_Schroeder

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Cool, 4-A DK doesn't contradict jack.
It does.

Crossover? Technically yes but it isn’t a crossover in the Blazblue or Smash sense. This is the same continuity, just different franchises within that setting even your fellow staff agreed with that.
It's literally listed as a crossover in our Crossovers page.

From what the context is saying, it's implying the other verse is featless or there's a clear distinction, in terms of this argument the distinction is whether or not the casual feat contradicts or doesn't contradict the scaling.
It's saying that feats that are different scale between two verses in crossovers shouldn't cross-scale between the series. That's it.

The point of the casual feat is to point out that in these two franchises that have a canon continuity with each other that Donkey Kong can perform something uber casually that's holding him at tier 6 to begin with, again you want to make it an outlier? Go ahead, but in terms of the current profile this is what I'm talking about.
That's not my argument, you just keep moving the goalpost and refusing to actually acknowledg what I"m saying, that 99% of the time the series are separate.
 
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It's also fun how Marvel and DC gets this treatment free.

Many characters have their own feats and stuff from their own series. Yet we allow them to scale when meeting up with other characters. That's still a canon crossover feat. Much like Mario and DK, they exist within the same universe and coninuity. Marvel and DC have a many crossovers and many characters scaling to each, they sure as hell won't get keys for it.
 
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Dino was just a bit worried about the scaling. He wasn’t outright agreeing with you.
Weeb already cleared that up with DK and I don’t know if any issues Wario would have.
 
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"It's saying that feats that are different scale between two verses in crossovers shouldn't cross-scale between the series. That's it."
>It says one's that don't contradict the scaling, read further here:
"This includes considering the contexts based on the nature or portrayal of the characters. For example, while Final Fight has shown very limited feats, characters such as Mike Haggar, Cody, and Hugo are consistently comparable to various Street Fighter characters and could scale to their feats."

"That's not my argument, you just keep moving the goalpost and refusing to actually acknowledg what I"m saying, that 99% of the time the series are separate."
>Uh no, directly examined the entire thing about series being separate from what I'm seeing on the wiki it's acknowledged as a canon crossover
"Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent."
Which is saying the feats/scaling may be used as long as it's consistent. What we moved on to was the point on whether or not this is consistent which by this point I'm confused, you're either argue for it not being consistent or say they can't be used cause separate franchise. It's listed as a canon crossover that's allowed to be used for feats on the page.
"Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent."

Also nah, not moving goal post by definition

Asking you to make a CRT on them being outliers because I don't give a single flying fuck about what's truly considered consistent or not (cause my entire argument is just based off the profiles alone) is not the same thing as trying to force you into a different goal. All I mentioned was the casual 6-B feat they're locked behind doesn't seem to contradict what's mentioned on the quote you gave from the page, not that you argued it contradicts it or whatever, I really do not care.
 

Matthew_Schroeder

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Actually I wanna ask, why is Mario and Donkey Kong even a "crossover". They've been in the same games ever since 1981, literally Mario's first game. And they've been born in the same game. This isn't even a crossover at that point, these were never separate.
The games are literally classified as crossovers. They are treated as different franchises with different copyrights and game series.
 
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> Mario's first game had DK
> DK has been a thing ever since Mario was a baby

They're made from the same people, it's not even a crossover at that point.
 

Matthew_Schroeder

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>It says one's that don't contradict the scaling, read further here:
I did read further and that doesn't disagree with anything I said. I already pointed out the contradictions in the setting, you saying that it's fine when there are no contradictions is not addressing any argument.

Which is saying the feats/scaling may be used as long as it's consistent. What we moved on to was the point on whether or not this is consistent which by this point I'm confused, you're either argue for it not being consistent or say they can't be used cause separate franchise. It's listed as a canon crossover that's allowed to be used for feats on the page.
I already addressed this. You're just repeating yourself over and ovr and pretending it's a new argument.

Also nah, not moving goal post by definition
It literally is. You just answer criticism by going "Nah man, that's not valid criticism unless you do [blank]."

All this proves is that you're incapable of actually answering the criticism and need it deflected.
 
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Already addressed both things multiple times in multiple posts. You're just repeating yourself.
A character getting his own series and coming back doesn't mean it's a crossover. If the two were together from the start, then it was never a crossover to begin with.

Smash Bros isn't a crossover confirmed.
Woah, I didn't know Miyamoto made Smash Bros. Miyamoto made both characters.
 
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"I did read further and that doesn't disagree with anything I said. I already pointed out the contradictions in the setting, you saying that it's fine when there are no contradictions is not addressing any argument."
>Blaze was the one that said there was no contradictions, my point was that the tier 6 feat is listed as extremely casual and is the only one thing locking him at his feat. Also the exact example I gave you lists final fight feats along with street fighter feats in the same key here

"I already addressed this. You're just repeating yourself over and ovr and pretending it's a new argument."
>Yes Matt I am repeating myself not because I was making a new argument but because I'm directly re-explaining to you what I'm saying since you seem to act like I was trying to say you said something you didn't. Which if you're going to reply "you did" quote it pls.

"It literally is. You just answer criticism by going "Nah man, that's not valid criticism unless you do [blank]."

All this proves is that you're incapable of actually answering the criticism and need it deflected."
>I didn't say it wasn't valid, I said I do not care about what's considered consistent or not and am going by the profile. I didn't answer the critcism cause I do not care about the criticism. If you want to keep using it on others go ahead, I already established what I'm going by and the usual thing I've seen treated on CRTs is that you're allowed to stick to what a profile says and disagreements on the consistency of a profile is meant to be put in a new CRT.
 

Matthew_Schroeder

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>Blaze was the one that said there was no contradictions, my point was that the tier 6 feat is listed as extremely casual and is the only one thing locking him at his feat. Also the exact example I gave you lists final fight feats along with street fighter feats in the same key here
Final Fight is admittedly a very bad example since Final Fight the franchise doesn't exist anymore and the characters got incorporated into Street Fighter and Cody in particular got presented as super strong there too.
 
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For DK & Mario it's two franchises even if they're in the same setting so crossover.
Separate franchises =/= Crossover if the they started from the same series. DK was always with Mario, had his own games, comes back again. It's not a crossover.

The most odd example I can think of is Cleveland being from Family Guy at the start, got his own show, sometimes comes back to Family Guy. Never was a crossover.
 

Matthew_Schroeder

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Separate franchises =/= Crossover if the they started from the same series. DK was always with Mario, had his own games, comes back again. It's not a crossover.
You saying it's not a crossover over and over doesn't make it true. The games are literally classified as such.
 
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You saying it's not a crossover over and over doesn't make it true. The games are literally classified as such.

Donkey Kong™ just made off with all the Mini-Mario toys, and now it's up to Mario™ to chase his long-time nemesis and retrieve the stolen goods.

Leap and battle through increasingly difficult levels as you use switches, conveyor belts, hammers, and more to overcome the hordes of enemies that block your way.

You need brawn...and brains! Figure out the best path, then break out new Mario moves like the handstand to track down keys, collect gifts, and navigate perilous platforms across barrels of levels.

Before battling Donkey Kong at the end of each world, collect all the Mini-Marios and lead them to safety!
Source

Nice to know Nintendo never stated it was a crossover.
 
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I mean, this is like saying that Rabbids aren't canon to Rayman only because they became their own franchise later on. Canons don't work like that, if both started as the same verse, and there's plenty of consistency to it, yeah, they should just scale, they even have a better scaling situation than Waluigi overall.
 
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Obviously my stance is that we remove the keys and that anyone who has reason to scale (basically not Lanky and Tiny) should scale.
 
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Still need a mod to unlock Wario and DK's page. Everyone else (Diddy, K. Rool, Shake King, etc) is unlocked so those will be scaled to their respected characters. Still keep in mind characters like Lanky, Tiny, or others from the WarioWare series will not be scaled.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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It's undoubtedly uncontroversial for Donkey Kong to scale from the main Mario cast, and one could argue for some more prominent DK crew members such as Diddy Kong to be considered in their leagues. People like Tiny Kong and Lanky Kong would also be in their leagues as they're comparable Diddy and Dixie. And I know Kiddy is as strong as DK with Chunky being even stronger as far as DKC is concerned.

DKC is definitely the same verse as the Mario Bros, but the feats often shown are lacking despite a lot of characters being seen as almost as strong as DK. Obviously, I'd like to see the keys get merged, but it's just often too difficult to convince; can't really force other staff members. So it seems safest to have DK keep his Donkey Kong | Mario Bros keys.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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But several of them including a few spin offs do; Yoshi games, Mario 64, Galaxy games, the RPGs, ect all have some Tier 4 feats. Wario even have one Tier 2 feat, but none of the DKC games have tier 4 feats and it has several Tier 6 feats.
 
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Mmm... I guess they could just go like "At least 6-B, likely 4-A".
Separating the keys as if the 4-A end is "composite-only" isn't really applicable when they aren't composites in the first place (Plus they aren't allowed anymore), so at worst they should be merged like above.

BTW, the site update made Mario's gallery on his profile look awful, it needs some reformatting.
 
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DKC is definitely the same verse as the Mario Bros, but the feats often shown are lacking despite a lot of characters being seen as almost as strong as DK. Obviously, I'd like to see the keys get merged, but it's just often too difficult to convince; can't really force other staff members. So it seems safest to have DK keep his Donkey Kong | Mario Bros keys.
Yes, but these feats were casual. That moon punch was done by a single one, I have no idea why you're treating this as DK's peak. DK having a key for his games and his own series would objectively imply that these are separate a canon/time/form etc.

Key: For characters who have transformation stages/power-ups or who become stronger through certain points of the story, insert those transformations/power-ups/timelines here in bold.

You can't have both. Either DK only scales to his own series or scales to the Mario cast, you cannot have both.
The scale isn't good. It's still relying solely on crossovers being applied back to everyone back.
Not a valid reason. Either display a contradiction or we just use scaling. I don't give a fuck when they're born within the same planet in Yoshi's Island DS and had their first game in Donkey Kong.
 

Dino_Ranger_Black

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Can we please stop claiming it's a crossover? Nintendo already established that they are part of the same universe with Yoshi's Island DS solidifying that. Yes, DK has his own series but so does Yoshi, Wario, and Luigi. In short, every game he appears with Mario doesn't make it a crossover. That being said, I have to agree with DDM. I have no qualms with Donkey, Diddy, and Dixie scaling due to how prominent they are. It's just that the other Kongs sans Chunky due to being stronger is where I have my doubts. They just didn't appear enough to make it less controversial. Since not alot of staff have given their input on this, I think it's best to leave the keys the way they are until then. But you can add an additional key for Diddy if you like.
 
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Because they don’t appear often , wouldn’t that make the scaling less of a problem? They lack major anti-feats and they only really can scale to the leader of the bunch. (Except for the weaker ones.)
 
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Dino said some understandable things, but I still don't entirely agree. Why not just scale everybody who's not fodder? Giving them separate keys was a bad decision in the first place, so we should correct it now.
 

Dino_Ranger_Black

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But it also makes for a lack of believability and justification to scale to them since Lanky Kong never fought his bosses directly in DK64. How are we sure he's on par with the other Kongs, who fought the Snowmads, the Tiki Tribe, and squared off with the star children Mario and co. in combative sports titles such as Strikers, Hoops, Sport Mix, and Aces?
 
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You mean lanky? Sure I don’t know if Lanky scales but the main point of the thread was combining the keys. The issues of whether to scale Lanky to the main hongs would exist even with the tier 6 key. Since the complaint will still be valid. If we can agree on the key removal, Lanky’s scaling can come later (I would assume Unknown, Possibly on the same level as the kongs.) Tiny probably would not scale, that can be definite.
 
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But it also makes for a lack of believability and justification to scale to them since Lanky Kong never fought his bosses directly in DK64.
Which is why prior to this comment I literally said I am fine without scaling Lanky to the main Kongs since he nevee directly harms the opponent. Hell, not even Lanky's own profile is being scaled to any character. There's a reason I said I would only scale if they have things to prove it. Chunky and Kiddy being in one game is a good thing, means they have no contradictions at all.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Lanky does have a higher strength stat than Diddy, which would arguably make him scale. But I agree with Dino that it's mostly all the one note characters is where contradictions lie. And it's mostly Matt who's making vague claims about "Franchise" and "Crossovers". I think all the "Composite keys" should be renamed to Mario Bros to avoid confusion though.
 
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Lanky does have a higher strength stat than Diddy, which would arguably make him scale.
And how do we know the strength stat refers to ap? What if it's a Super Mario Bros 2 situation where the strength stat refers to lifting strength?


I think all the "Composite keys" should be renamed to Mario Bros to avoid confusion though.
Name of the key doesn't matter, regardless of how you intent it, making them seperate keys for seperate scaling due to a seperate series means you absolutely cannot scale DK to the Mario cast. Again, pick one, as a key implies otherwise. Is it a seperate version of DK? A separate point in time? A different canon? A power-up? These are what we use keys for. To say we should make a key for a series and give a character what's essentially a varying tier would just outright make zero sense from a canon stand point. Under no circumstances should a series with the same canons have separate keys for seperate series, that implies he's weaker in those games despite always being 4-A in any other.
 
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If the issue is giving them a high tier in itself just show the anti feat in question that messes with their tiering, or this would be the same as me saying that I don't think Petey Piranha should be 4-A because he's in Mario games without that high of a tier (I'm ignoring the spin off since no clue if he appears in any prominent one that gives him scaling).
 
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If the issue is giving them a high tier in itself just show the anti feat in question that messes with their tiering, or this would be the same as me saying that I don't think Petey Piranha should be 4-A because he's in Mario games without that high of a tier (I'm ignoring the spin off since no clue if he appears in any prominent one that gives him scaling).
What anti feat?
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Strength stat in DK 64 is how much damage you do to enemies via punching; a lot of enemies in DK64 have notable pools of health that take multiple hits to take out.

And actually, I don't think every mini-boss should scale from Mario as I mentioned on numerous threads before; such as Boom Boom or Pom Pom. In Petey's case, he not only is an occurring boss, he also has a Shine sprite empowerment and was in the cutscenes seen as threatening.
 
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Strength stat in DK 64 is how much damage you do to enemies via punching; a lot of enemies in DK64 have notable pools of health that take multiple hits to take out.
Then what's the issue with Lanky then, lol. Backscaling is a thing.

And actually, I don't think every mini-boss should scale from Mario as I mentioned on numerous threads before; such as Boom Boom or Pom Pom.
I still think they do, but that's unrelated.

In Petey's case, he not only is an occurring boss, he also has a Shine sprite empowerment and was in the cutscenes seen as threatening.
I agree with Petey scaling, however a Shine does not empower you like a Power Star. It's never stated and has been disproven in The Thousand Year Door.
 
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Also, let's take a look at our DK page and their feats, shall we?

Wizpig: Planet level for reality warping his planet. I have no idea where the feat is, but either way, you only race him and never fight him.

DK: Country level for his calc on punching the moon. However, this was a very casual feat. Literally done by a single punch, thus casual. Hell, Diddy does it with a headbutt on ACCIDENT. So it should be obvious that this is nowhere near their peak. This pretty much the Roshi thread argument in terms of using outliers as the basic argument when they didn't contradict themselves.

Lord Fredrik: Froze DK's island. Considering how the ice dragon did it by simply flying around, this isn't their peak either.

And that's it. So why exactly is scaling them such an issue when one feat is from a guy you never fight, the second is done with a casual punch and accidental headbutt, and third by simply flying. These aren't contradictions.
 

Antvasima

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I agree with Dino that it's mostly all the one note characters is where contradictions lie. And it's mostly Matt who's making vague claims about "Franchise" and "Crossovers". I think all the "Composite keys" should be renamed to Mario Bros to avoid confusion though.
Would this be an acceptable compromise for the rest of you? To simply call the two keys "Donkey Kong Games" and "Mario Games" or somesuch?

Matthew has a very good point that the DK Crew have never been portrayed at anywhere near a peak Mario level within their own games, due to their creators not caring about consistency or scaling.

It may not exactly be a crossover when Mario and Donkey Kong interact, but the same principle largely applies.
 
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Also, let's take a look at our DK page and their feats, shall we?

Wizpig: Planet level for reality warping his planet. I have no idea where the feat is, but either way, you only race him and never fight him.

DK: Country level for his calc on punching the moon. However, this was a very casual feat. Literally done by a single punch, thus casual. Hell, Diddy does it with a headbutt on ACCIDENT. So it should be obvious that this is nowhere near their peak. This pretty much the Roshi thread argument in terms of using outliers as the basic argument when they didn't contradict themselves.

Lord Fredrik: Froze DK's island. Considering how the ice dragon did it by simply flying around, this isn't their peak either.

And that's it. So why exactly is scaling them such an issue when one feat is from a guy you never fight, the second is done with a casual punch and accidental headbutt, and third by simply flying. These aren't contradictions.




Name of the key doesn't matter, regardless of how you intent it, making them seperate keys for seperate scaling due to a seperate series means you absolutely cannot scale DK to the Mario cast. Again, pick one, as a key implies otherwise. Is it a seperate version of DK? A separate point in time? A different canon? A power-up? These are what we use keys for. To say we should make a key for a series and give a character what's essentially a varying tier would just outright make zero sense from a canon stand point. Under no circumstances should a series with the same canons have separate keys for seperate series, that implies he's weaker in those games despite always being 4-A in any other.
By the above I don't think that's a good compromise, either the DK cast fully scales or the key is best being removed. A better compromise would be perhaps something like "At least 6-B, likely 4-A", and as said before they actually have better reasons to scale to the Mario cast than Waluigi, who already gets around fine with a "Likely 4-A".
 

Matthew_Schroeder

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I stand by my opinion of giving keys to the DK characters who actually have participated on Crossovers with Mario and have feats that indicate scaling.

Taking those feats and then applying to everyone back is hella dumb.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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The problem with Mario Bros is that Mario is pretty much the Superman of video game characters; he's really whacky and all over the place when it comes power scaling or tiers. And it does have continuity for sure given the constant references to previous games and hints for future releases, as well as hints for some growth in the RPG games especially. Or even taking the DK Rap lyrics seriously; He's Bigger, Faster, and Stronger Too! But there's also Mario having a couple Tier 4 feats and one Massively FTL+ feats as babies. And even the baby Mario Bros are seen as about as strong as their adult selves in Partners in Time. But having a bunch of Tier 9 anti feats mainly from gameplay, extremely casual Tier 7 to Tier 6 feats, and some occasional solid Tier 2 feats make things far more complicated. Mario cast are a troupe of actors according to Miyamoto and they only demonstrate feats their stage/game design directors allow them to. Which also varies from game to game.

I think having Donkey Kong Country | Mario Bros keys works. And it's what Dino prefers, with Donkey Kong, and Diddy Kong having those keys especially. But I got nothing against the "At least 6-B, possibly 4-A" if the keys need to be merged.
 
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Why possibly? They have better reasons to scale than Waluigi, who managed to get a likely rating, so to remain consistent that should at least apply here as well from a glance.
 
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Scaling isn't even my main thing, I just want the keys g o n e. Because keys for separate series means different characters.
 
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