Removal of Wario/DK's Keys

[00potato]

Then tell Weeb to stop bringing it up as an argument. DKC has no feats on Mario's level so DK and Diddy Kong fighting Mario in a crossover game isn't good evidence for scaling across the board. It's that simple.

It is still canon to both.
The word crossover means diddly squat here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, right. Why should we have a compromise when Matt is the only opponent?

Staff has been universally against from what I saw.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Both DDM and DRB are neutral. Scaling issues is the only reason they're still unsure.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, the conflicts are getting obnoxious on both sides. Yes, saying that Donkey Kong has never been portrayed as Tier 4 in the DKC series is indeed a note worthy statement, and then saying "Mario isn't portrayed as Tier 4 in every game he's in" is a terrible counter argument. That's only going to make it worse on the upgrading side. Superman isn't Tier 4 in every comicbook he's in and is heavily all over the place in tiers; he struggles to lift of an airplane, effortlessly moves a planet, back to using all his might to lift up the Empire State building, sneezing away a solar system, then gets either more pathetic than those lower entries or more crazy then those high end entries. Same with Megaman, not every classic Megaman has a Tier 5 feat or every X game has a Tier 4 feat, but they both have enough to justify their tiers.

Most Mario characters should be given the Superman treatment; middle ground is the best way to go. And the absolute worst debaters are the people trying to take game mechanics literally; the fact that some people have this "Either upgrade Goombas to Tier 4 or downgrade Mario to Goomba tier mindset" is the reason why a lot of people don't take Mario threads seriously anymore. I'm aware no one went that far in this thread. But it still speaks loud volumes that I had to debate with people writing 10 or more paragraph long essays with each of their posts. It's why Ryukama and Dino are basically having the same viewpoints on the series as Sera and Executor N0 do for Sonic. Speaking of Superman, while him being 4-B is consistent enough, there are a lot of problems of him being scaled to pretty much every DC Metahuman an existence. While some characters are legit comparable if not superior to him, Lex Luthor or various Teenage superheroes such as Starfire are not truly on his level. And I feel the same for some of the underdogs in DK or Mario. Hence why I'm iffy about Mario scaling to all those punching bag minibosses, One-note RPG mini-bosses, or various side kick type characters.

Also, the creators often don't care about scaling; making them essentially more Marvel/DC writers in that regard. While not as extreme with the whole Tier 9 kicking 1-A's range, some characters getting knocked by giant blocks and the same characters kicking Multiversal Gods in other instances is still within the same concept. But anyway, DK is still officially a star child; he should logically be in the same league as Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Peach, Bowser, and Wario in lore. And the fact that he's a star child while none of the other DK Crew members are is a reason to consider him special compared to the rest. But I know that also has it's share of inconsistencies. Mario and Yoshi have multiple showings of their tiers and scaling from both main games and canon spinoffs where as DKC doesn't even have a single Tier 4 feat within the entire sidestory.

Anyway, I'd prefer if we just stick to the two compromises and maybe ask more staff particularly Dino or Ryu if they have their preferences on either keep the keys but rename them, or have the At least possible for some of the side-kick Kongs.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus makes sense to me. A compromise solution is probably best, in lack of better options.

Feel free to notify Ryukama and Dino_Ranger_Black about this.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well, how about only DK fully scales? Because one can definitely agree he should be comparable to Mario.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if the other characters scale from his feats in his own games, that seems confusing.

 

[Antvasima]

@Super_Saiyan_God_Julian @GyroNutz @Starter_Pack

We would appreciate your input here.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Antvasima I still prefer option 1 overall since it seems less controversial. Among all of the DK Krew, it seems that this would fit to Donkey and Diddy only. Again, that's my own view.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Option 1: Keep the Keys as Donkey Kong | Mario Bros. This will be for Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong. The stronger DK characters such as K. Rool, Chunky, Funky, and Kiddy will be 6-B scaling from DK. Where as the weaker Kongs such as Dixie, Tiny, Lanky, ect are Low 6-B scaling from Diddy. DK and Diddy are Tier 4 and Massively FTL+ in their Mario keys

Guess this would be the way to go then.

 

[Bobsican]

I guess I'll mention again that the tier 6 feats of the DK cast were pretty casual and are in no way antifeats to take the tier 4 end as outlierish. There's also how they have better scaling for this than Waluigi, who managed to get a Likely 4-A rating just by keeping up with others in sportive spin-offs.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Dino is our biggest Mario expert among the staff. We should use his suggestion.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Still kinda weird to have keys for characters without any inverse explanation for the separation but eh.

 

[Bobsican]

At least an explanation over this separation could be added to the verse page to avoid further issues, if we remain with the separate key things.

 

[Antvasima]

That might be a good idea.

 

[GyroNutz]

I prefer Option 2. Treating the DK vs Mario games as crossovers is very misleading when they're one and the same canon.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that the Donkey Kong games have not treated the DK crew as being nearly that powerful, so different keys for different portrayals, while still making sure that we convey that these are not separate continuities, seems less misleading to our visitors.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well, the problem is that the Donkey Kong games have not treated the DK crew as being nearly that powerful, so different keys for different portrayals, while still making sure that we convey that these are not separate continuities, seems less misleading to our visitors.

Nintendo never treated somebody at a certain level of power. They just make games. They likely never would even think that Mario is capable of destroying a planet. They're the same canon, that's all we need to know.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If there is greater consensus for option 2, I suppose that we have to use that then.

 

[GyroNutz]

They're only treated as far weaker if you list all their feats and look at it from a vs battling perspective, assuming they're separate. From a narrative perspective, Donkey Kong should be no weaker in DKC than his own origin game.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I still defend Option 1

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

They're only treated as far weaker if you list all their feats and look at it from a vs battling perspective, assuming they're separate. From a narrative perspective, Donkey Kong should be no weaker in DKC than his own origin game.

This

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Dino and Matt prefer option 1, but Gyro prefers option 2; iirc Cal also does but he hasn't commented on any of these threads as of late. But I can tag more Mario related staff. @The_real_cal_howard @Super_Saiyan_God_Julian @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Ryukama which option do you prefer?

• Option 1: Keep the Keys as Donkey Kong | Mario Bros. This will be for Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong. The stronger DK characters such as K. Rool, Chunky, Funky, and Kiddy will be 6-B scaling from DK. Where as the weaker Kongs such as Dixie, Tiny, Lanky, ect are Low 6-B scaling from Diddy. DK and Diddy are Tier 4 and Massively FTL+ in their Mario keys
• Option 2: Merge them with the At least, possibly in mind. DK, K Rool, Funky, Chunky are At least 6-B, likely 4-A. Diddy Kong and Dixie Kong are At least Low 6-B, possibly 4-A. Lanky and Tiny only scale to the low ends however since they never really fight the big bosses on equal grounds but gameplay makes them more or less comparable to Diddy.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I'm picking Option 2 if I didn't say so already

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't know if non-staff opinions are relevant at the moment, but I prefer option 1

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I pick option 2.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Option 1 ig

 

[Antvasima]

I prefer option 1, but Gyro made a good point.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think Ryu prefers option 1. I can ask him to comment.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Option 1 implies they are from different franchises, which is simply not true.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's not what it implies buddy.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It does imply that. I’m option 2 because it’s well...accurate.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It does imply that. I’m option 2 because it’s well...accurate.

No it doesn't. It just implies that the scaling is dishonest. Which it is.

You are picking Option 2 by inventing that Option 1 is something it's not.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Mario is tier 4
DK fights Mario
DK fights K. Rool

For any other franchise this would just scale K. Rool to Mario. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t overwrite the basis of scaling. It’s not even crossover rules.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They both have good points which is why I put myself as neutral. Option 2 is the most canon portrayal of Donkey Kong for certain, but Option 1 just has a lot less circular scaling. And Miyamoto said it himself, the cast are actors. Meaning the reason Mario or Donkey are weaker in some guys is just the director or programmers in this case just didn't want them to use their full strengths. DK is Mario's physical superior, but K Rool has never fought evenly with Bowser, and even other Kongs can be inconsistent. K Rool is seen as DK's physical superior in DKC 1 and 64, but the opposite is true in DKC 2 and 3. Though,it's because K Rool is also an actor; he's a monstrous brute in some games and a scientist in others. And Kaptain K Rool claims to be King K Rool's brother, when he's actually the same guy.

But anyway, it is best if the community behaves, both staff and non staff. And even more so in staff.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Mario is tier 4

Debatable.

DK fights Mario

In like two crossover games out of 500

DK fights K. Rool

In their own games while nobody has feats anywhere near the ones currently attributed to Mario.

For any other franchise this would just scale K. Rool to Mario. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t overwrite the basis of scaling. It’s not even crossover rules.

Wrong, it wouldn't be scaled in similarly long-running franchises.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Tbf it’s not like different keys are used specifically to denote different canons

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Tbf it’s not like different keys are used specifically to denote different canons

It’s used to denote eras or forms. And Mario isn’t a shounen, lacking both (forms exist but not like a SSJ).

 

[Bobsican]

I support option 2 if I didn't say that already.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Debatable.

Don’t get me there. You always act like your beliefs are law.

In like two crossover games out of 500

Gee, it’s almost as if DK started off as a Mario villain way back in 1981!

In their own games while nobody has feats anywhere near the ones currently attributed to Mario.

Yeah and Persona 3 and 4 has no feats close to universal but guess who scales to Joker? Rinse and repeat for Final Fantasy Gilgamesh scaling, or Falchion scaling for Fire Emblem.

Wrong, it wouldn't be scaled in similarly long-running franchises.

Lies. See above for three instances of this being the case. Hell, name one that’s not Marvel or DC.