Removal of Wario/DK's Keys

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Don’t get me there. You always act like your beliefs are law.

This is just poisoning the well. There's literally a thread about revising Mario's tier going on, you can't just ask like it's not a real question.

Gee, it’s almost as if DK started off as a Mario villain way back in 1981!

That DK isn't even the same DK being discussed and he is "defeated" by Mario dropping him of a building.

Yeah and Persona 3 and 4 has no feats close to universal but guess who scales to Joker? Rinse and repeat for Final Fantasy Gilgamesh scaling.

I disagree with PErsona 3 and 4 scaling too actually. So I"m not sure what you are getting at.

With Gilgamesh we literally agree several versions don't scale to each other. So these are just false equivalencies.

Lies. See above for two instances of this being the case.

The above two instances aren't comparable and one of them is an outright fabrication on your part. And it ultimately just amounts to "Other verses do wrong thing so I think my verse should be wrong too".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is just poisoning the well. There's literally a thread about revising Mario's tier going on, you can't just ask like it's not a real question.

I’m not the one who opened the well by responding “debatable.”

That DK isn't even the same DK being discussed and he is "defeated" by Mario dropping him of a building.

And yet Mario had to do that because Cranky Kong (who DK the 3rd is stronger than so thanks for supporting my point further) is stronger than.

I disagree with PErsona 3 and 4 scaling too actually. So I"m not sure what you are getting at.

With Gilgamesh we literally agree several versions don't scale to each other. So these are just false equivalencies.

Nope. Squall and Bartz scale to each other’s feats because Gilgamesh. And you lost that battle with Persona so if you got overrode there you’ll GER overrode here.

The above two instances aren't comparable and one of them is an outright fabrication on your part. And it ultimately just amounts to "Other verses do wrong thing so I think my verse should be wrong too".

Because your way is always right, Matt.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I’m not the one who opened the well by responding “debatable.”

That's not what poisoning the wall is.

And yet Mario had to do that because Cranky Kong (who DK the 3rd is stronger than so thanks for supporting my point further) is stronger than.

You do know this shows that Cranky Kong has wall level durability by his only feat in the original 1981 DK? It's not a solid argument. And again, Mario supporters use the word "Defeat" like it was some Shounen Battle when Mario "fights" are almost always "throw vegetable at dude when his mouth is opened".

Nope. Squall and Bartz scale to each other’s feats because Gilgamesh. And you lost that battle with Persona so if you got overrode there you’ll GER overrode here.

Squall can scale out of FF8's feats actually. Don't know about Bartz but if people think it's wrong they should change it.

Also, "lost the battle", why are you being so aggressive? Is this personal to you?

And again, my principles are the same. It was wrong on Persona and it's even more wrong here. Comparing it to Persona is actually dishonest since it has 5 main games and 2 main spin-offs. It's not the same as Mario having hundreds and hundreds of disconnected titles with 0 continuity.

Because your way is always right, Matt.

When did I say this? This is ad-hominen and I would appreciate that if you, a Staff Member, didn't rely on it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Cut it out, both of you.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes, high and mighty Medeus. As soon as you say.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus just wants you both to try to act in a polite and respectful manner. He isn't doing anything wrong, just trying to do his job.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, the debating is fine, its just the part of you getting at each other's throats is not.

 

[Antvasima]

Exactly. The only way we can sustain this community in the long run is if we try to collaborate in a reasonably constructive manner, and that is not possible if we are hostile against each other.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Option 2 because it makes FAR more sense from a canon standpoint, read what a key is. They are used for different forms, eras, or versions. Not for different scaling of the same canon in the same continuity.

 

[Antvasima]

We do not have extremely set standards for keys as far as I am aware. I think that we can show a bit of flexibility in that regard.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There do exist keys based on hungered, bad health, or casual vs well fed, good health, or serious.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Ant, define what a key is. And explain to me why we'd make keys for two series within the same canon and continuity just for scaling. DK as a baby scales to a 4-A feat. So there's nothing like a continuity era feat. And DK in Mario is still by definition not a crossover.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

There do exist keys based on hungered, bad health, or casual vs well fed, good health, or serious.

And the difference between those examples is that it's the same character, but in a certain circumstance. But still overall the same. This isn't DK's case, he has no reasons to hold back (K. Rool captured him twice), and was never displayed to ge fatigued.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I think we should tag Dino again, cause the reasons he sided option 1 for were debunked.

 

[Antvasima]

Keys usually simply separate statistics for different incarnations or eras for a character, but they can be used for other purposes as well, such as if different games, time periods, or authors handle characters in an extremely different manner in terms of power levels. We do not have a set standard for them. We simply use them when it is most convenient.

Anyway, I am not dead set in my views here, and would like to get input from other staff members.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

But you have to realize that the tier 6 feats were done by a single punch, an accidental headbutt, and flying.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Agreed those feats are extremely casual.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Also, why is Diddy not 6-B is he performed the feat himself?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Diddy's feat by himself was calculated at Low 6-B.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Diddy's feat by himself was calculated at Low 6-B.

Wasn't DK's feat calced at 6-B? And Diddy's feat is
exactly the same.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I believe the moon fell slightly slower in Diddy's animated on screen feat; slower movement means less KE.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Are you telling me Diddy can't take a single punch from DK?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Lots of people have problems with the moon feat becaus it assumes it feel from the same distance as the actual moon.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Odyssey confirms it's the same distance as the regular moon from what I have heard

 

[Dust_Collector]

I just checked and, unless I'm blind, the calc for the moon feat doesn't assume it falls the same distance as the actual moon, not even remotely close to it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The calc actually took the size of the moon and the distance into account based on Returns pixel scaling; it's only 4 distance km according to the blog. Which is a lot closer to the Earth than the real Moon. It would have been High 6-A if we took the distance from the actual moon.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members should I notify to comment here again?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I asked Dino Ranger Black, Ryukama, and I think Saikou is familiar with Mario too. But it seems none of them responded.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will ask again. You can try private messages later if nothing happens.

@Dino_Ranger_Black @Ryukama @Saikou_The_Lewd_King

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

If the distance of the moon is taken from the real moon, we might have to re-calc it since this is one of those "size vs distance" matters. If not, I think it's fine the way it is.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is the blog, according to the calc, the moon is merely 2.7 km as opposed to the RL 3400 km diameter. And it makes no mention of the 240,000 km distance from the Earth to moon, it just pixel/frame scales comparing the distance traveled to its size. So it's using the own in game method. The calc is fine.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Yeah. The moon from DKC clearly isn’t 240,000 km away, and the current calc seems to already account for that.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here then?

 

[Bobsican]

There's still discussion over which of the two alternatives should be taken.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[00potato]

Bump?

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise what we need to do here please?

 

[00potato]

Just apply option 2, it has far more support overall and the same amount of staff approval.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, most staff in fact didn't support it.