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Hahahaha Canon crossovers do exist
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Removal of Wario/DK's Keys
- Thread starter DatOneWeeb
- Start date
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No it's not. My god you still strawman me completely.
That's not the basis of my argument and never was. And I shall ignore it if you keep bringing it up.
I am familiar with different versions, yes. Therefore they shouldn't scale. The two series are separate except for crossovers. It's not a false equivalency. The existence of canon doesn't prevent this from happening.
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I rather keep them because I'm worried how the characters from their respective titles would scale, particularly the enemies who fought DK and Wario. Btw, I should note that while Donkey Kong Country may be their own franchise, they are by no means a separate canon. Nor does any game Donkey Kong appeared with Mario qualifies as a crossover sans Super Smash Bros. Yoshi's Island DS and the Mario vs Donkey Kong games established that both series takes place within the same universe.
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- Thread starter
- #84
Ad nauseum hits you like a truck, I am not going to repeat myself when yes, your ENTIRE arguments boils down to to the DKC series having separate feats from the Mario series. Despite said feats are casual. The fact that Mario and Donkey Kong's first games both in date AND continuity display them together should be a suggestion enough that no, they are not to be separated. Hell we've already had the two appear in Mario's main setting.
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This is not my argument. My argument is that the series are separate 99% of the time save for crossovers therefore they should be kept mostly separate, with crossover scaling allowed in a separate key. Meaning that characters involved in the crossovers can scale to crossover feats but backwards scaling is not allowed.
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I agree, but they are separate franchises and thus I think keys are preferrable to not turn the profiles into a giant mess of scaling.
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- Thread starter
- #87
Simple, scale the ones who are actually shown comparable to each other. If characters like Shake King harm Wario, scale them. If K. Rool can harm DK, scale them. Specifics like Ashley or Tiny Kong who don't have feats displaying them to scale to those characters don't scale.
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Will just note from the official Crossover page
"Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent.
We still have to differentiate between characters of different comparative power levels within the verses, and there may be outliers and Plot-Induced Stupidity, which are rules that still apply to linear canon verses.
Additionally, the feats seen or taken from the crossover may be consistent to one verse and not the other. There could be impressive feats seen as consistent with the established scale of one franchise, but that lack consistency with the otherwise featless franchise. We should only use scaling that does not contradict the statistics of the franchises, and need to use common sense for case-by-case analysis in addition to this.
This includes considering the contexts based on the nature or portrayal of the characters. For example, while Final Fight has shown very limited feats, characters such as Mike Haggar, Cody, and Hugo are consistently comparable to various Street Fighter characters and could scale to their feats."
"Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent.
We still have to differentiate between characters of different comparative power levels within the verses, and there may be outliers and Plot-Induced Stupidity, which are rules that still apply to linear canon verses.
Additionally, the feats seen or taken from the crossover may be consistent to one verse and not the other. There could be impressive feats seen as consistent with the established scale of one franchise, but that lack consistency with the otherwise featless franchise. We should only use scaling that does not contradict the statistics of the franchises, and need to use common sense for case-by-case analysis in addition to this.
This includes considering the contexts based on the nature or portrayal of the characters. For example, while Final Fight has shown very limited feats, characters such as Mike Haggar, Cody, and Hugo are consistently comparable to various Street Fighter characters and could scale to their feats."
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That's not his argument nor mines. The problem is with the scaling chain derived from crossovers. IF the characters who aren't in crossovers start scaling to other characters that are we have a problem.
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- Thread starter
- #91
Let Dino argue for himself, that was a response for him, not you.
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- Thread starter
- #92
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You misinterpreted his point, I correct him. But sure.
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"There could be impressive feats seen as consistent with the established scale of one franchise, but that lack consistency with the otherwise featless franchise."
From what I can gather, this is saying if the other franchise has consistently lower feats that they struggle with then they can't be used, and seeing as you have Mario lower then what's currently on the pages idk why it's seen as inconsistent to you, if you're arguing via their current tiering on the pages then fact ofthe matter is the main feat scaling DK crew rn is a casual feat which is the issue. If you think it's lower then please by all means, make a CRT to lower both of them, idc either way on that, my issue is that you're arguing that mario is way lower then it actually is... but then say the feats are too inconsistent with Donkey Kong?
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They aren’t separate canons though. Just seperate franchises. What is the issue here?
K Rool can scale to the main cast and so can Wario goons that seems consistent considering how they mostly fight. If it somehow causes an issue later, we will cross that bridge but for now that issue doesn’t exist.The DK feats are casual and Wario is Wario.
K Rool can scale to the main cast and so can Wario goons that seems consistent considering how they mostly fight. If it somehow causes an issue later, we will cross that bridge but for now that issue doesn’t exist.The DK feats are casual and Wario is Wario.
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Yes, Mario feats are inconsistent with DK feats, thanks for demonstrating my point.
If the best feats are astronomically slower this applies. It doesn't matter if it's casual. In fact being casual could lead credence to it being an outlier too. I also heard from calcers who have problems with the current rating due to assumptions about the moon's distance from Earth so that could be discussed as well.
Look, Blaze agrees too:
DatOneWeeb said:
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You guys are literally addressing the problems yourselves at this point...
Scaling King K Rool to Donkey Kong is a no-brainer, but then also scaling him to a DK who is scaling to crossovers and then scaling everyone who interacts with them despite not being on any crossovers themselves is a massive issue.
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- Thread starter
- #98
Cool, 4-A DK doesn't contradict jack.
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Crossover? Technically yes but it isn’t a crossover in the Blazblue or Smash sense. This is the same continuity, just different franchises within that setting even your fellow staff agreed with that.
This is more like a superhero crossover. We would not be concerned about scaling one DC guy to another even if they have separate comic series since they might meet or crossover a lot. This is the same issue.
This is more like a superhero crossover. We would not be concerned about scaling one DC guy to another even if they have separate comic series since they might meet or crossover a lot. This is the same issue.
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"Yes, Mario feats are inconsistent with DK feats, thanks for demonstrating my point."
>From what the context is saying, it's implying the other verse is featless or there's a clear distinction, in terms of this argument the distinction is whether or not the casual feat contradicts or doesn't contradict the scaling.
"If the best feats are astronomically slower this applies. It doesn't matter if it's casual. In fact being casual could lead credence to it being an outlier too. I also heard from calcers who have problems with the current rating due to assumptions about the moon's distance from Earth so that could be discussed as well.
Look, Blaze agrees too:"
>Ok then make a CRT on it being an outlier, I legitimately do not care what's right or wrong about the tier I'm talking about what's on the profile. The point of the casual feat is to point out that in these two franchises that have a canon continuity with each other that Donkey Kong can perform something uber casually that's holding him at tier 6 to begin with, again you want to make it an outlier? Go ahead, but in terms of the current profile this is what I'm talking about.
>From what the context is saying, it's implying the other verse is featless or there's a clear distinction, in terms of this argument the distinction is whether or not the casual feat contradicts or doesn't contradict the scaling.
"If the best feats are astronomically slower this applies. It doesn't matter if it's casual. In fact being casual could lead credence to it being an outlier too. I also heard from calcers who have problems with the current rating due to assumptions about the moon's distance from Earth so that could be discussed as well.
Look, Blaze agrees too:"
>Ok then make a CRT on it being an outlier, I legitimately do not care what's right or wrong about the tier I'm talking about what's on the profile. The point of the casual feat is to point out that in these two franchises that have a canon continuity with each other that Donkey Kong can perform something uber casually that's holding him at tier 6 to begin with, again you want to make it an outlier? Go ahead, but in terms of the current profile this is what I'm talking about.
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It does.
It's literally listed as a crossover in our Crossovers page.
It's saying that feats that are different scale between two verses in crossovers shouldn't cross-scale between the series. That's it.
That's not my argument, you just keep moving the goalpost and refusing to actually acknowledg what I"m saying, that 99% of the time the series are separate.
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as a canon crossover. It is fine to scale from them since no consistency issues exist.
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I already pointed out why it isn't and Dino agrees.
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- Thread starter
- #104
It's also fun how Marvel and DC gets this treatment free.
Many characters have their own feats and stuff from their own series. Yet we allow them to scale when meeting up with other characters. That's still a canon crossover feat. Much like Mario and DK, they exist within the same universe and coninuity. Marvel and DC have a many crossovers and many characters scaling to each, they sure as hell won't get keys for it.
Many characters have their own feats and stuff from their own series. Yet we allow them to scale when meeting up with other characters. That's still a canon crossover feat. Much like Mario and DK, they exist within the same universe and coninuity. Marvel and DC have a many crossovers and many characters scaling to each, they sure as hell won't get keys for it.
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Marvel and DC are constantly under scrutiny for having dumb scaling between characters, what world are you in?
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- #107
Actually I wanna ask, why is Mario and Donkey Kong even a "crossover". They've been in the same games ever since 1981, literally Mario's first game. And they've been born in the same game. This isn't even a crossover at that point, these were never separate.
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"It's saying that feats that are different scale between two verses in crossovers shouldn't cross-scale between the series. That's it."
>It says one's that don't contradict the scaling, read further here:
"This includes considering the contexts based on the nature or portrayal of the characters. For example, while Final Fight has shown very limited feats, characters such as Mike Haggar, Cody, and Hugo are consistently comparable to various Street Fighter characters and could scale to their feats."
"That's not my argument, you just keep moving the goalpost and refusing to actually acknowledg what I"m saying, that 99% of the time the series are separate."
>Uh no, directly examined the entire thing about series being separate from what I'm seeing on the wiki it's acknowledged as a canon crossover
"Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent."
Which is saying the feats/scaling may be used as long as it's consistent. What we moved on to was the point on whether or not this is consistent which by this point I'm confused, you're either argue for it not being consistent or say they can't be used cause separate franchise. It's listed as a canon crossover that's allowed to be used for feats on the page.
"Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent."
Also nah, not moving goal post by definition
en.wikipedia.org
Asking you to make a CRT on them being outliers because I don't give a single flying **** about what's truly considered consistent or not (cause my entire argument is just based off the profiles alone) is not the same thing as trying to force you into a different goal. All I mentioned was the casual 6-B feat they're locked behind doesn't seem to contradict what's mentioned on the quote you gave from the page, not that you argued it contradicts it or whatever, I really do not care.
>It says one's that don't contradict the scaling, read further here:
"This includes considering the contexts based on the nature or portrayal of the characters. For example, while Final Fight has shown very limited feats, characters such as Mike Haggar, Cody, and Hugo are consistently comparable to various Street Fighter characters and could scale to their feats."
"That's not my argument, you just keep moving the goalpost and refusing to actually acknowledg what I"m saying, that 99% of the time the series are separate."
>Uh no, directly examined the entire thing about series being separate from what I'm seeing on the wiki it's acknowledged as a canon crossover
"Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent."
Which is saying the feats/scaling may be used as long as it's consistent. What we moved on to was the point on whether or not this is consistent which by this point I'm confused, you're either argue for it not being consistent or say they can't be used cause separate franchise. It's listed as a canon crossover that's allowed to be used for feats on the page.
"Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent."
Also nah, not moving goal post by definition
Moving the goalposts - Wikipedia
Asking you to make a CRT on them being outliers because I don't give a single flying **** about what's truly considered consistent or not (cause my entire argument is just based off the profiles alone) is not the same thing as trying to force you into a different goal. All I mentioned was the casual 6-B feat they're locked behind doesn't seem to contradict what's mentioned on the quote you gave from the page, not that you argued it contradicts it or whatever, I really do not care.
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The games are literally classified as crossovers. They are treated as different franchises with different copyrights and game series.
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- Thread starter
- #110
> Mario's first game had DK
> DK has been a thing ever since Mario was a baby
They're made from the same people, it's not even a crossover at that point.
> DK has been a thing ever since Mario was a baby
They're made from the same people, it's not even a crossover at that point.
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I did read further and that doesn't disagree with anything I said. I already pointed out the contradictions in the setting, you saying that it's fine when there are no contradictions is not addressing any argument.
I already addressed this. You're just repeating yourself over and ovr and pretending it's a new argument.
It literally is. You just answer criticism by going "Nah man, that's not valid criticism unless you do [blank]."Also nah, not moving goal post by definition
Moving the goalposts - Wikipedia
All this proves is that you're incapable of actually answering the criticism and need it deflected.
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Already addressed both things multiple times in multiple posts. You're just repeating yourself.
Smash Bros isn't a crossover confirmed.
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- #113
A character getting his own series and coming back doesn't mean it's a crossover. If the two were together from the start, then it was never a crossover to begin with.
Woah, I didn't know Miyamoto made Smash Bros. Miyamoto made both characters.
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"I did read further and that doesn't disagree with anything I said. I already pointed out the contradictions in the setting, you saying that it's fine when there are no contradictions is not addressing any argument."
>Blaze was the one that said there was no contradictions, my point was that the tier 6 feat is listed as extremely casual and is the only one thing locking him at his feat. Also the exact example I gave you lists final fight feats along with street fighter feats in the same key here
vsbattles.fandom.com
"I already addressed this. You're just repeating yourself over and ovr and pretending it's a new argument."
>Yes Matt I am repeating myself not because I was making a new argument but because I'm directly re-explaining to you what I'm saying since you seem to act like I was trying to say you said something you didn't. Which if you're going to reply "you did" quote it pls.
"It literally is. You just answer criticism by going "Nah man, that's not valid criticism unless you do [blank]."
All this proves is that you're incapable of actually answering the criticism and need it deflected."
>I didn't say it wasn't valid, I said I do not care about what's considered consistent or not and am going by the profile. I didn't answer the critcism cause I do not care about the criticism. If you want to keep using it on others go ahead, I already established what I'm going by and the usual thing I've seen treated on CRTs is that you're allowed to stick to what a profile says and disagreements on the consistency of a profile is meant to be put in a new CRT.
>Blaze was the one that said there was no contradictions, my point was that the tier 6 feat is listed as extremely casual and is the only one thing locking him at his feat. Also the exact example I gave you lists final fight feats along with street fighter feats in the same key here
Cody Travers
Cody Travers is one of the main protagonists of the Final Fight series along with Guy and Haggar and a recurring character in Street Fighter. He has fought to survive the harsh slums of Metro City since he was a kid. In Street Fighter V, he is shown to have become the new mayor of Metro City...
vsbattles.fandom.com
"I already addressed this. You're just repeating yourself over and ovr and pretending it's a new argument."
>Yes Matt I am repeating myself not because I was making a new argument but because I'm directly re-explaining to you what I'm saying since you seem to act like I was trying to say you said something you didn't. Which if you're going to reply "you did" quote it pls.
"It literally is. You just answer criticism by going "Nah man, that's not valid criticism unless you do [blank]."
All this proves is that you're incapable of actually answering the criticism and need it deflected."
>I didn't say it wasn't valid, I said I do not care about what's considered consistent or not and am going by the profile. I didn't answer the critcism cause I do not care about the criticism. If you want to keep using it on others go ahead, I already established what I'm going by and the usual thing I've seen treated on CRTs is that you're allowed to stick to what a profile says and disagreements on the consistency of a profile is meant to be put in a new CRT.
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Final Fight is admittedly a very bad example since Final Fight the franchise doesn't exist anymore and the characters got incorporated into Street Fighter and Cody in particular got presented as super strong there too.>Blaze was the one that said there was no contradictions, my point was that the tier 6 feat is listed as extremely casual and is the only one thing locking him at his feat. Also the exact example I gave you lists final fight feats along with street fighter feats in the same key here
Cody Travers
Cody Travers is one of the main protagonists of the Final Fight series along with Guy and Haggar and a recurring character in Street Fighter. He has fought to survive the harsh slums of Metro City since he was a kid. In Street Fighter V, he is shown to have become the new mayor of Metro City...
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So is it even considered a canon crossover anymore or just... canon? If latter someone should remove that.
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- Thread starter
- #117
At this point it's all about scaling only.
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For DK & Mario it's two franchises even if they're in the same setting so crossover.
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I'm talking about Final Fight and Street Fighter not DK and Mario
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- #120
Separate franchises =/= Crossover if the they started from the same series. DK was always with Mario, had his own games, comes back again. It's not a crossover.
The most odd example I can think of is Cleveland being from Family Guy at the start, got his own show, sometimes comes back to Family Guy. Never was a crossover.
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