Pokemon Physiology Discussion Thread but I pretend it’s a wrestling match

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

As the page is now, do y'all think it's ok to post once it gets the Resurrection feat?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

As the page is now, do y'all think it's ok to post once it gets the Resurrection feat?

Shadow Pokémon Physiology still needs to be evaluated too if it's listed as a subsection.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

So we're looking at another few months.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Sigh Alright! I've gone through all the stages of grief, and I'm ready to try and get this uploaded again.

Turns out this subsection needs to be evaluated too.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I don't understand the durability neg part, do we consider "super effectiveness" as dura neg?

 

[Imaginym]

Sigh Alright! I've gone through all the stages of grief, and I'm ready to try and get this uploaded again.

Turns out this subsection needs to be evaluated too.

Comment here, or in the blog?
Assuming here is okay:

"They are utilized for many nefarious purposes that ultimately serve as fighting machines without emotion."
In my opinion, this sounds like it means the purposes ultimately serve as fighting machines without emotion, rather than the Pokemon. Could this be worded for more clarity?
"Due to their process of artificial amplification, Shadow Pokémon gain more capabilities than normal Pokémon. Shadow Pokémon have techniques that aren't constricted to general types, and they hit all all of them super effectively, across the spectrum."
Is "amplification" the right word here? Maybe enhancement?
Are Pokemon types a spectrum?

• Aura: They naturally exude a dark aura around themselves, which has been consistently noted to be invisible to the human eye. Other continuities keep this consistent too.

I checked the images, but not the videos. The manual state that "you (the hero)" can't see it, & the Manga has Wes unable to see it, unlike Rui.

I also don't understand why it qualifies as Durability Negation. It's Resistance Negation to be SE on what you otherwise wouldn't be, but you're not bypassing how durable you are, just overriding an element of their physiology that'd normally weaken damage.

"They are incredibly resistant to the process of restoring them with other aspects such as personality and nature also being locked away."
How do we know this?

• Resistance to Power Nullification and Memory Manipulation: Unlike normal Pokémon, Shadow Pokémon are unable to have their moves forcefully forgotten and removed from them. They keep their moveset until fully purified. Hyper Mode also can negate the effects of moves like Mean Look and Block, moves that forces a Pokémon to stay in battle.

I don't think this is resistance to Power Nullification.

Block is obstructing the way, & while Mean Look has been depicted as creating an aura around the target, it's preventing the Poke Ball's laser from recalling the Pokemon. It is the negation of something that would affect the Pokemon directly/specifically, but the Pokemon isn't the one performing the action being negated (The return.), it's the Poke Ball's action being negated.

Also a bit off-topic for this thread, but isn't that possibly a feat for Pokemon being able to intercept the laser in using Block?

• Resistance to Power Mimicry: Their shadow moves are unable to be replicated by Sketch.

Are other moves unable to replicate Shadow Moves? For example, Mimic? Mirror Move? Metronome?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

"They are utilized for many nefarious purposes that ultimately serve as fighting machines without emotion."
In my opinion, this sounds like it means the purposes ultimately serve as fighting machines without emotion, rather than the Pokemon. Could this be worded for more clarity?

That is clearly a modifier of "they," not "purposes." It's fine as it is.

"Due to their process of artificial amplification, Shadow Pokémon gain more capabilities than normal Pokémon. Shadow Pokémon have techniques that aren't constricted to general types, and they hit all all of them super effectively, across the spectrum."
Is "amplification" the right word here? Maybe enhancement?
Are Pokemon types a spectrum?

Yes, they are artificially amplified by becoming shadow versions of themselves. Also, they are referred to as a typing spectrum so yes.

• Aura: They naturally exude a dark aura around themselves, which has been consistently noted to be invisible to the human eye. Other continuities keep this consistent too.

I checked the images, but not the videos. The manual state that "you (the hero)" can't see it, & the Manga has Wes unable to see it, unlike Rui.

Yes...? That's kind of why it's noted to be an invisible aura usually. I don't see the problem here.

I also don't understand why it qualifies as Durability Negation. It's Resistance Negation to be SE on what you otherwise wouldn't be, but you're not bypassing how durable you are, just overriding an element of their physiology that'd normally weaken damage.

They can bypass Wonder Guard's effects, which sets Shedinja at a fixed durability.

"They are incredibly resistant to the process of restoring them with other aspects such as personality and nature also being locked away."
How do we know this?

That's literally what happens the moment you catch a Shadow Pokémon. Their natures are suppressed and you cannot see their personality values for the same reason. It's a literal plot point that restoring them is hard as **** without Celebi.

• Resistance to Power Nullification and Memory Manipulation: Unlike normal Pokémon, Shadow Pokémon are unable to have their moves forcefully forgotten and removed from them. They keep their moveset until fully purified. Hyper Mode also can negate the effects of moves like Mean Look and Block, moves that forces a Pokémon to stay in battle.

I don't think this is resistance to Power Nullification.

Block is obstructing the way, & while Mean Look has been depicted as creating an aura around the target, it's preventing the Poke Ball's laser from recalling the Pokemon. It is the negation of something that would affect the Pokemon directly/specifically, but the Pokemon isn't the one performing the action being negated (The return.), it's the Poke Ball's action being negated.

The Manga shows a Nosepass using Block to prevent Pokémon from escaping by emitting a beam of light that doesn't let them leave. The Pokéball's action is ignored because the effect extends to the Pokémon too, that is common sense. If Shadow Pokémon even negate that effect that applies to both the ball and them, it's Resistance via simple logic. The other parts of what is listed demonstrate resistance to Power Nullification nonetheless.

• Resistance to Power Mimicry: Their shadow moves are unable to be replicated by Sketch.

Are other moves unable to replicate Shadow Moves? For example, Mimic? Mirror Move? Metronome?

No, they aren't.

"It fails to copy Shadow moves and Chatter." - https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mimic_(move)

I don't see anything explicitly about it on Bulbapedia, but the Pokemon Wiki doesn't list any of them as being affected by Mirror Move categorically.

Metronome doesn't copy them either IIRC.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I don't understand the durability neg part, do we consider "super effectiveness" as dura neg?

According to the part of Lugia's profile regarding the Shadow Pokémon/XD001, we do.

 

[Imaginym]

Yes, they are artificially amplified by becoming shadow versions of themselves. Also, they are referred to as a typing spectrum so yes.

Scans of where this referring to types as a spectrum occurred, please? Sorry for any bother.

Yes...? That's kind of why it's noted to be an invisible aura usually. I don't see the problem here.

In what you're responding to, I said "I checked the images, but not the videos." because from what I had checked, I've only seen evidence Wes can't see the auras.
Speaking personally, I do readily believe the auras are invisible by default to most humans, at least -& in retrospect, I probably should have made that clear(er) earlier- but in the event we for some reason decide to treat Wes as a distinct case, it may be relevant if only he's been noted as failing to see auras.

They can bypass Wonder Guard's effects, which sets Shedinja at a fixed durability.

Shedinja has a base & max HP of 1, but isn't Wonder Guard its own ability? A barrier or such, rather than durability? Being able to hit a 1-hit-wonder is just being able to hit them.

That's literally what happens the moment you catch a Shadow Pokémon. Their natures are suppressed and you cannot see their personality values for the same reason. It's a literal plot point that restoring them is hard as **** without Celebi.

Thank you for the scan. I appreciate the clarification. It would be useful to have something like this in the blog, if it's not already.
Do we have any images of Pokemon from the same game, where their personality values are visible on regular or purified Pokemon?
Personally, I'd be quite supportive of this. Although I would worry about accusations of game mechanics, & dialogue supporting this conclusion is probably valuable; Even if this is acceptable without such additional justification cited, It may at least, accelerate a conclusion that is in support of this.

The Manga shows a Nosepass using Block to prevent Pokémon from escaping by emitting a beam of light that doesn't let them leave.

Scans, please? Also, this contradicts with the in-game descriptions.

The Pokéball's action is ignored because the effect extends to the Pokémon too, that is common sense. If Shadow Pokémon even negate that effect that applies to both the ball and them, it's Resistance via simple logic. The other parts of what is listed demonstrate resistance to Power Nullification nonetheless.

You can't ignore the Poke Ball, returning the Pokemon to inside the Poke Ball is the whole point. It's like ignoring the box aspect of teleporting someone into a box!
Though, nonetheless, the Pokemon is called back to the Poke Ball by a mechanism of the Poke Ball, typically contact from a beam, so that's being negated.
But I suppose there is some case for "the Shadow Pokemon's ability is negating a negation done by another thing that affects it, thus, it is negation of Power Nullification", so I'm not entirely opposed.
Regarding: "The other parts of what is listed demonstrate resistance to Power Nullification nonetheless."
Which other parts where? Sorry for my confusion.

No, they aren't.

"It fails to copy Shadow moves and Chatter." - https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mimic_(move)

I don't see anything explicitly about it on Bulbapedia, but the Pokemon Wiki doesn't list any of them as being affected by Mirror Move categorically.

Metronome doesn't copy them either IIRC.

I asked if they were unable, so saying they aren't unable to copy them, implies Mimic CAN copy Shadow Moves. Also, technically, Metronome calls, rather than copies, but by that logic, it doesn't replicate, either.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Scans of where this referring to types as a spectrum occurred, please? Sorry for any bother.

I'm not saying it's officially called as such. It's just something the fans call it. It's consistent with the actual definition, so I don't see the problem here.

In what you're responding to, I said "I checked the images, but not the videos." because from what I had checked, I've only seen evidence Wes can't see the auras.
Speaking personally, I do readily believe the auras are invisible by default to most humans, at least -& in retrospect, I probably should have made that clear(er) earlier- but in the event we for some reason decide to treat Wes as a distinct case, it may be relevant if only he's been noted as failing to see auras.

Wes is just the most blatant example of their auras not appearing to people, usually. Even in the images, you can tell it's atypical to see their aura because it says that Rui is special because she can do that. The videos reaffirm this applies to more than just Wes.

Miror B.: That sweet young thing, she can see things that ordinary people aren't supposed to see.

Ein File S: A Shadow Pokémon is a Pokémon that has been made into a fighting machine by artificially shutting the door to its heart. What we didn't know is that the Shadow Pokémon exude a dark aura that can't normally be seen by the human eye. Unfortunately, a girl with the ability to see this dark aura has been discovered.

Aura in Pokémon is usually something that you can see. It's worthy of note because it's a unique aura that doesn't follow the rest of the series.

Shedinja has a base & max HP of 1, but isn't Wonder Guard its own ability? A barrier or such, rather than durability? Being able to hit a 1-hit-wonder is just being able to hit them.

That's why its whole gimmick is that it has fixed durability. There is nothing about it being an ability either; that is a complete headcanon. If you wanna downplay the fact that said one-hit-wonder has a unique ability that protects it from most things not bypassing its fixed durability then sure.

Thank you for the scan. I appreciate the clarification. It would be useful to have something like this in the blog, if it's not already.
Do we have any images of Pokemon from the same game, where their personality values are visible on regular or purified Pokemon?
Personally, I'd be quite supportive of this. Although I would worry about accusations of game mechanics, & dialogue supporting this conclusion is probably valuable; Even if this is acceptable without such additional justification cited, It may at least, accelerate a conclusion that is in support of this.

It is already on the blog. You can clearly see that the mons have natures and such when they are fully purified from the Relic Stone. I'm not sure why we would remotely call it gameplay mechanics either; it's consistent with the whole point that any aspect of their heart is artificially closed off to be the ultimate fighting machines. Their natures and personality values are supporting evidence to show it. You can't just decide to look at the evidence in isolation.

Scans, please? Also, this contradicts with the in-game descriptions.

I can't get the exact panels, but it's referred to on the Bulbapedia page. Not really, both can be equally valid. The manga's interpretation is even followed in other adaptations/continuities at times like Mystery Dungeon.

You can't ignore the Poke Ball, returning the Pokemon to inside the Poke Ball is the whole point. It's like ignoring the box aspect of teleporting someone into a box!
Though, nonetheless, the Pokemon is called back to the Poke Ball by a mechanism of the Poke Ball, typically contact from a beam, so that's being negated.
But I suppose there is some case for "the Shadow Pokemon's ability is negating a negation done by another thing that affects it, thus, it is negation of Power Nullification", so I'm not entirely opposed.
Regarding: "The other parts of what is listed demonstrate resistance to Power Nullification nonetheless."
Which other parts where? Sorry for my confusion.

I'm not ignoring the ball. I said the effect is enforced on the Pokémon too. I think the physiology page even notes that Pokémon can re-enter their balls whenever they want as well. Mean Look would be negating that aspect too. Shadow Pokémon would be defying that because they can enter the ball whenever they want whilst in Hyper Mode. I was referring to the preceding parts you quoted.

I asked if they were unable, so saying they aren't unable to copy them, implies Mimic CAN copy Shadow Moves. Also, technically, Metronome calls, rather than copies, but by that logic, it doesn't replicate, either.

I said they weren't able to copy shadow moves.

 

[Imaginym]

I'm not saying it's officially called as such. It's just something the fans call it. It's consistent with the actual definition, so I don't see the problem here.

Wes is just the most blatant example of their auras not appearing to people, usually. Even in the images, you can tell it's atypical to see their aura because it says that Rui is special because she can do that. The videos reaffirm this applies to more than just Wes.

Miror B.: That sweet young thing, she can see things that ordinary people aren't supposed to see.

Ein File S: A Shadow Pokémon is a Pokémon that has been made into a fighting machine by artificially shutting the door to its heart. What we didn't know is that the Shadow Pokémon exude a dark aura that can't normally be seen by the human eye. Unfortunately, a girl with the ability to see this dark aura has been discovered.

I appreciate this clarification.

Aura in Pokémon is usually something that you can see. It's worthy of note because it's a unique aura that doesn't follow the rest of the series.

I also appreciate this clarification.

That's why its whole gimmick is that it has fixed durability. There is nothing about it being an ability either; that is a complete headcanon. If you wanna downplay the fact that said one-hit-wonder has a unique ability that protects it from most things not bypassing its fixed durability then sure.

In previous generations, the Wonder Guard has had text occur when it's applied such as "SHEDINJA avoided damage with WONDER GUARD." The move's Japanese name is translated as "Mysterious Protection", & from Generation 7, the in-menu description says "Its mysterious power only lets supereffective moves hit the Pokémon.".
That does not sound like an inherent property of one's durability. How naturally durable you are is not a guard of you, nor a mysterious protection, it's just a part of you.
As for the anime, Bulbapedia describes its depiction in The Princess and the Togepi (Although we may wish to verify the content ourselves.) as: "When an attack that is not super effective hits Shedinja, it simply bounces off its body. If a move that is super effective hits Shedinja, it is automatically knocked out." Image link: https://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/...50px-Colonel_Hansen_Shedinja_Wonder_Guard.png

I do not think bypassing Wonder Guard is bypassing Shedinja's Durability. It's bypassing the mysterious protection described in Wonder Guard's description, to be able to hit the one-hit wonder.
& unless there's instances of it in the anime surviving more than 1 attack that didn't get past Wonder Guard, it being a 1-hit-wonder is a product of it having a base 1 HP stat. Base stats are usually sketchy basises for stuff on our site, AFAIK.

It is already on the blog. You can clearly see that the mons have natures and such when they are fully purified from the Relic Stone. I'm not sure why we would remotely call it gameplay mechanics either; it's consistent with the whole point that any aspect of their heart is artificially closed off to be the ultimate fighting machines. Their natures and personality values are supporting evidence to show it. You can't just decide to look at the evidence in isolation.

That scan that you linked on Imgur in that post was already on this blog?: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PlozAlcachaz/Shadow_Pokémon_Physiology If so, I apolozie for my error in failing to find it. Nonetheless, I quite appreciate your bringing that scan to attention. Although as far as I can tell, neither that purified Pokemon, nor the unpurified Shadow Pokemon seem to have its personality value (You said "Their natures are suppressed and you cannot see their personality values for the same reason.") shown.
Natures being game mechanics could be argued on the basis that they don't affect much other than gameplay, aren't mentioned elsewhere, & sometimes seem to contradict Pokedex entries or other lore. Ex: Cyndaquil has Pokedex entries saying it is Timid, so it'd be uncharacteristic for one to be Bold or Rash, some could argue? Also, Shadow Pokemon tend to make many elements Unknown or inaccessible. Moves known, EXP gain, etc.
That said, I don't intend to argue that itself: As you mentioned, the games make it clear Shadow Pokemon are mentally & emotionally affected by the closing of their Hearts, & so hiding their Natures makes sense

I can't get the exact panels, but it's referred to on the Bulbapedia page. Not really, both can be equally valid. The manga's interpretation is even followed in other adaptations/continuities at times like Mystery Dungeon.

I think it would be very valuable to get the exact panels. Claims that X happened can lead to misinterpretation or incredulity, which may lead to problematic or erroneous revision attempts, hence my, personally, high value-ing of scans.

I'm not ignoring the ball. I said the effect is enforced on the Pokémon too. I think the physiology page even notes that Pokémon can re-enter their balls whenever they want as well. Mean Look would be negating that aspect too. Shadow Pokémon would be defying that because they can enter the ball whenever they want whilst in Hyper Mode. I was referring to the preceding parts you quoted.

When you said "The Pokéball's action is ignored because the effect extends to the Pokémon too, that is common sense. If Shadow Pokémon even negate that effect that applies to both the ball and them, it's Resistance via simple logic. The other parts of what is listed demonstrate resistance to Power Nullification nonetheless." were you not asserting the ball is to be ignored?
In any case, thank you for the clarification on this as well.
You argue that the other resistances for Shadow Pokemon listed on the blog demonstrate resistance to Power Nullification?

I said they weren't able to copy shadow moves.

I know. The strikethrough text was because I was being only half-seriously pedantic for an attempt at humour. I asked "Are other moves unable to replicate Shadow Moves? For example, Mimic? Mirror Move? Metronome?"
& in reply to me asking if you were unable, you said "No, they aren't.".
I knew that you didn't mean to create a double negative ("No they aren't (unable)".), & knew you meant they couldn't copy Shadow Moves, hence the strikethrough text in my reply.
Sorry for the confusion with that non-serious element of the conclusion of that reply of mine.

Also, apologies for any bother; I hope our interactions aren't unpleasant.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I'm only directly responding to points of contention rather than ones you agreed on.

In previous generations, the Wonder Guard has had text occur when it's applied such as "SHEDINJA avoided damage with WONDER GUARD." The move's Japanese name is translated as "Mysterious Protection", & from Generation 7, the in-menu description says "Its mysterious power only lets supereffective moves hit the Pokémon.".
That does not sound like an inherent property of one's durability. How naturally durable you are is not a guard of you, nor a mysterious protection, it's just a part of you.
As for the anime, Bulbapedia describes its depiction in The Princess and the Togepi (Although we may wish to verify the content ourselves.) as: "When an attack that is not super effective hits Shedinja, it simply bounces off its body. If a move that is super effective hits Shedinja, it is automatically knocked out." Image link: https://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/...50px-Colonel_Hansen_Shedinja_Wonder_Guard.png

I do not think bypassing Wonder Guard is bypassing Shedinja's Durability. It's bypassing the mysterious protection described in Wonder Guard's description, to be able to hit the one-hit wonder.
& unless there's instances of it in the anime surviving more than 1 attack that didn't get past Wonder Guard, it being a 1-hit-wonder is a product of it having a base 1 HP stat. Base stats are usually sketchy basises for stuff on our site, AFAIK.

None of the game stuff you linked automatically implies it's just a barrier. I'm talking about how it has fixed durability in the sense that it consistently maintains the same type of HP/energy until something can bypass it. The anime should be looked over.

The mysterious protection you're referring to allows Shedinja to maintain a fixed durability in the face of other attacks. There is nothing contradictory here. They usually are, but Shedinja's case is more unique for how its ability naturally works.

Although as far as I can tell, neither that purified Pokemon, nor the unpurified Shadow Pokemon seem to have its personality value (You said "Their natures are suppressed and you cannot see their personality values for the same reason.") shown.

Normal Pokémon do have their personality values, but I couldn't get a good screenshot of it. You can look on the Bulbapedia page for them if you're really skeptical in that regard.

I think it would be very valuable to get the exact panels. Claims that X happened can lead to misinterpretation or incredulity, which may lead to problematic or erroneous revision attempts, hence my, personally, high value-ing of scans.

Pokémon Adventure volumes are all jumbled up and the site I tried using didn't have the next panel after Nosepass used Block. I can try to find a different source later.

When you said "The Pokéball's action is ignored because the effect extends to the Pokémon too, that is common sense. If Shadow Pokémon even negate that effect that applies to both the ball and them, it's Resistance via simple logic. The other parts of what is listed demonstrate resistance to Power Nullification nonetheless." were you not asserting the ball is to be ignored?
In any case, thank you for the clarification on this as well.

They resist the effect on them and the ball.

You argue that the other resistances for Shadow Pokemon listed on the blog demonstrate resistance to Power Nullification?

No? I was talking about the fact they cannot have their moves forcefully forgotten/deleted as well.

 

[Imaginym]

None of the game stuff you linked automatically implies it's just a barrier. I'm talking about how it has fixed durability in the sense that it consistently maintains the same type of HP/energy until something can bypass it. The anime should be looked over.

The mysterious protection you're referring to allows Shedinja to maintain a fixed durability in the face of other attacks. There is nothing contradictory here. They usually are, but Shedinja's case is more unique for how its ability naturally works.

What do you mean by "consistently maintains the same type of HP/energy until something can bypass it"? That Shedinja's HP is always at 1?
& perhaps it's not a barrier. But it doesn't support it being a part of Shedinja's innate durability.
"Shedinja avoided damage with Wonder Guard" implies Shedinja wasn't hit at all, & thus, its durability isn't a matter of why it survives the attack. & for many generations, that's the description that appeared when Wonder Guard activated in battle.
And out of battle in Generation 7, if you checked Wonder Guard's description, it says: "Its mysterious power only lets supereffective moves hit the Pokémon.".
If your ability only lets X hit you, that implies X is not hitting you at all. Meaning either you avoid it or it's obstructed. Like by a barrier.

No? I was talking about the fact they cannot have their moves forcefully forgotten/deleted as well.

I'm unsure making someone forget how to do something qualifies as Power Nullification. If you make someone forget how to do a Roundhouse Kick or breath Fire, I'd question calling that Power Nullification. (Though if it were PN, I'd assume it would be so of Martial Arts or Fire Manipulation.)
The thing being forgotten isn't being done to be nullified, simply how to execute it is removed during a move deletion.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

What do you mean by "consistently maintains the same type of HP/energy until something can bypass it"? That Shedinja's HP is always at 1?
& perhaps it's not a barrier. But it doesn't support it being a part of Shedinja's innate durability.
"Shedinja avoided damage with Wonder Guard" implies Shedinja wasn't hit at all, & thus, its durability isn't a matter of why it survives the attack. & for many generations, that's the description that appeared when Wonder Guard activated in battle.
And out of battle in Generation 7, if you checked Wonder Guard's description, it says: "Its mysterious power only lets supereffective moves hit the Pokémon.".
If your ability only lets X hit you, that implies X is not hitting you at all. Meaning either you avoid it or it's obstructed. Like by a barrier.

I didn't say that was Shedinja's innate durability doing that. You keep misunderstanding this point constantly. I'm saying that Wonder Guard acts as a force that maintains a fixed durability for Shedinja for non-effective moves. It's an ability that ties into it's durability. I have literally not said anything about it being raw durability, please stop strawmanning it. Your quote doesn't automatically have to be a barrier either. Your argument is very fallacious here because you're deriving a conclusion from incomplete information on your behalf.

I'm unsure making someone forget how to do something qualifies as Power Nullification. If you make someone forget how to do a Roundhouse Kick or breath Fire, I'd question calling that Power Nullification. (Though if it were PN, I'd assume it would be so of Martial Arts or Fire Manipulation.)
The thing being forgotten isn't being done to be nullified, simply how to execute it is removed during a move deletion.

I don't see why literally forcing a technique to be permanently gone wouldn't classify as a Power Nullification. You're literally removing their capability to use an ability. If you can't enforce that effect on Shadow Pokémon and their techniques aren't modifiable, then I don't see the issue here at all. Move Deleters flat-out have statements of forcing Pokémon to cease use of their moves, yet they can't do it to Shadow Pokémon.

 

[Imaginym]

I didn't say that was Shedinja's innate durability doing that. You keep misunderstanding this point constantly. I'm saying that Wonder Guard acts as a force that maintains a fixed durability for Shedinja for non-effective moves. It's an ability that ties into it's durability.

What do you mean about this?
Do you mean that Wonder Guard alters Shedinja's durability?
& I agree, it doesn't have to be a barrier. But the quotes, PLURAL (in & out of battle.), support that the moves aren't actually hitting Shedinja. "Avoided" & "only lets supereffective moves hit". Not to mention both versions of the name implying some exterior defense. "Mysterious Protection", "Wonder Guard".
Durability isn't the matter at hand if the attacks aren't hitting, because if they aren't hitting, your durability doesn't matter. You don't need to be 9-B to not die to a gun if you just dodge the bullets.

I don't see why literally forcing a technique to be permanently gone wouldn't classify as a Power Nullification. You're literally removing their capability to use an ability. If you can't enforce that effect on Shadow Pokémon and their techniques aren't modifiable, then I don't see the issue here at all. Move Deleters flat-out have statements of forcing Pokémon to cease use of their moves, yet they can't do it to Shadow Pokémon.

Do we have precedent for erasing techniques from character's memories being Power Nullification? (Also, in some circumstances a Pokemon's deleted move can be relearned, even through means as simple as gaining experience & levelling up. Could a technique Power Nullified through Memory Manipulation be performed again if they merely remembered it again?)

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

What do you mean about this?
Do you mean that Wonder Guard alters Shedinja's durability?
& I agree, it doesn't have to be a barrier. But the quotes, PLURAL (in & out of battle.), support that the moves aren't actually hitting Shedinja. "Avoided" & "only lets supereffective moves hit". Not to mention both versions of the name implying some exterior defense. "Mysterious Protection", "Wonder Guard".
Durability isn't the matter at hand if the attacks aren't hitting, because if they aren't hitting, your durability doesn't matter. You don't need to be 9-B to not die to a gun if you just dodge the bullets.

In sense, yes, it would alter Shedinja's durability. However, I think you're misunderstanding the idea that comes from that. Shedinja wouldn't be affected because Wonder Guard just ups its durability a lot. It does it in a way that it has a set durability where it's not affected unless it gets hit with those certain effective types against it.

The quote about avoiding damage isn't specific to any idea. It could easily fit under your idea of mine; it doesn't belong to a single denomination. The same can be said with the ability names. They can just as easily refer to the fact it's an abnormal protection that's specific only to Shedinja. Dodging analogy doesn't work because it's taking "avoid" as literal dodging of attacks when nothing constitutes that since it's a passive ability of Shedinja's.

Do we have precedent for erasing techniques from character's memories being Power Nullification? (Also, in some circumstances a Pokemon's deleted move can be relearned, even through means as simple as gaining experience & levelling up. Could a technique Power Nullified through Memory Manipulation be performed again if they merely remembered it again?)

Pretty sure it's treated as more than just Memory Manipulation in the games. I don't see what relearning moves has to do with anything. The most you'd get out of that is they can get techniques back that have been forcefully removed. That has no effect on Shadow Pokémon. Regardless, I assume you agree with the Mean Look point since you dropped it. That alone would constitute the resistance.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I’d like to point out that, iirc, according to what I’ve heard from the Discussion threads, Wonder Guard just acts as Invulnerability somewhat- they’re hit, just doesn’t do squat.

 

[Imaginym]

In sense, yes, it would alter Shedinja's durability. However, I think you're misunderstanding the idea that comes from that. Shedinja wouldn't be affected because Wonder Guard just ups its durability a lot. It does it in a way that it has a set durability where it's not affected unless it gets hit with those certain effective types against it.

The quote about avoiding damage isn't specific to any idea. It could easily fit under your idea of mine; it doesn't belong to a single denomination. The same can be said with the ability names. They can just as easily refer to the fact it's an abnormal protection that's specific only to Shedinja. Dodging analogy doesn't work because it's taking "avoid" as literal dodging of attacks when nothing constitutes that since it's a passive ability of Shedinja's.

I'm unsure that's our stance. It would mean Wonder Guard amps Shedinja's durability to the level of its tier or whatever its durability is... yet any Super-Effective move (& normally, Super-Effective is strictly a damage boost.) is enough to KO it?
If Shedinja is durability amped to be able to block attacks it can't survive, damage boosted attacks from AP lower than the boost doesn't make sense.
Plus our profile just tiers it as High 7-C & lists its durability as Durability: Unknown (Can easily be defeated by any attack that can actually hit it), Intangibility and Wonder Guard makes it hard to kill
It doesn't say "Higher with Wonder Guard" or "Varies with Wonder Guard".

& the idea that Shedinja's Durability changes doesn't make sense when the ability's descriptions mention it as avoiding or not being hit.
Even if you don't interpret "avoiding damage" as avoiding the moves that would otherwise cause damage, how do you think "only lets supereffective moves hit" doesn't mean that the moves aren't being avoided?
Also attacks can be avoided even without evading; Just make the attack miss instead of having the user dodge.

When the descriptions (& the names of the ability.) imply to the contrary of it changing durability & our own Wiki makes no such mention of such durability changing, why do you assume it's not just some form of mystical protection/evasion, what evidence makes you think Wonder Guard changes durability?

Pretty sure it's treated as more than just Memory Manipulation in the games. I don't see what relearning moves has to do with anything. The most you'd get out of that is they can get techniques back that have been forcefully removed. That has no effect on Shadow Pokémon. Regardless, I assume you agree with the Mean Look point since you dropped it. That alone would constitute the resistance.

Evidence of it being treated as more than just Memory Manipulation?
Relearning moves has to do with that if you make someone Forget how to do a Roundhouse Kick AND Nullify their ability to do a Roundhouse Kick, just because they remembered how to do a Roundhouse Kick doesn't mean the Nullification of that ability ceased.
If someone has two broken limbs & forgot to use them, remembering how to use them won't change their limbs being broken & unusable.

But if a Pokemon remembers a move, it regains the capacity to perform the associated actions.

I’d like to point out that, iirc, according to what I’ve heard from the Discussion threads, Wonder Guard just acts as Invulnerability somewhat- they’re hit, just doesn’t do squat.

Links, please? I feel it would be more valuable to have those arguments present here for consideration rather than not.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I would urge the people here to hurry up with the Shadow Pokemon conversation, as unless I'm mistaken this is all that's standing between me and posting the page as a profile.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Are we all done? Does it look good now?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Cries

 

[Thelastmlg]

Is so easy when you are evil

And i do it all for free, your tears are all the pay i'll ever need

Anyway, what's left, it seems good to me.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Ok, thank you.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, I'll give my opinions, but you may not like them, just as the other times:

What I dislike with:

- Statistics: Just like someone pointed out before, it only means that two is better than one, they're stronger because they're together.

- Reactive Evolution: As I said before, that's just their normal growing process. Evolution is just a method to call the way Pokémon grow and naturally transform. It doesn't even fit the definition of the power itself, becasue Reactive Evolution means being able to evolve in order to better face external threats, as a reaction. Pokémon can only evolve in default forms in specific ways, they can't evolve on the fly as a reaction to the battle and such, as Doomsday and other examples do.
And the thing about terrestrial creatures is a reference to real animals, because in the first gen Pokémon lived in the same world as animals, they were considered different creatures, the thing has been retconned overtime. The first gen. has a lot of references to real world animals between dex entries and stuff in the anime, it's an outdated concept nowadays.

- Body Control: I don't see why it would extend to every Pokémon and not just to Chespin, since we have no proof that it is the same with other Pokémon.

- Matter and Light: We have no evidences that it is actually transmuting their attacks, we only see visual effects open to different interpretations, totally not valid to give those kind of powers.

- Regeneration: I strongly disagree with this more than anything else, two of the examples are toon force gags, i.e. characters being flattened. The other two are game animations taken literally, they can't be used because they are not real representations. I don't know about the lava thing, since the video shows another thing, but we have enough evidences from the anime, manga and games that Pokémon can die from way less impressive injuries or just being damaged and knocked out, they are not all some kind of Majin Buu.

- Resistance to Poison: I can accept the poison being less effective as they don't die from it, not being affected at all is just game mechanics to make the game easier.

- Resistance to Acid: As I always said, I disagree with give additional effects to moves that only do a specific thing. Gastro acid just doesn't deal damage, and the stomach acid of supernatural snakes, frogs, spiders, monkeys, bears and even plants and rocks isn't the same. Same for corrosive gas, since in game it only targets the items and using the Iron Ball as an example is nitpicking a specific item just because the move works with everything.


Some minor stuff:

- Can you provide the source of all the guides or whatever they are to be sure they are official or usable?

- Adaptation should be limited or overtime, since they can't do it on the fly.

- The third point in the accelerated development is useless, since it refers to trainers and the first video (as someone said before) is just to push irl kids to reading.

- For healing it may be better to just use the actual food items in-game, rather than trading cards.

- Are we sure that they recover for Transmutation on their own, and it isn't just an effect of restarting the game after a game over?

 

[Tllmbrg]

- Resistance to Poison: I can accept the poison being less effective as they don't die from it, not being affected at all is just game mechanics to make the game easier.

Steel Types and Poison Types would then have even greater poison resistance no?

 

[SamanPatou]

Yes, as it is currently written on their profiles. The same applies to dark types being immune to psychic and all the other immunities treated as strong resistance.

Also, the poison thing may not be correct, I think that some dex entry talks about poison types using their poison to hunt and kill the prey, which would make sense, demoting the resistance to game mechanics.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

- Statistics: Just like someone pointed out before, it only means that two is better than one, they're stronger because they're together.

And as I pointed out before, Clemont stated they were greater than 2.

- Reactive Evolution: As I said before, that's just their normal growing process. Evolution is just a method to call the way Pokémon grow and naturally transform. It doesn't even fit the definition of the power itself, becasue Reactive Evolution means being able to evolve in order to better face external threats, as a reaction. Pokémon can only evolve in default forms in specific ways, they can't evolve on the fly as a reaction to the battle and such, as Doomsday and other examples do.
And the thing about terrestrial creatures is a reference to real animals, because in the first gen Pokémon lived in the same world as animals, they were considered different creatures, the thing has been retconned overtime. The first gen. has a lot of references to real world animals between dex entries and stuff in the anime, it's an outdated concept nowadays.

It is specifically described as an ability to adapt to their environment. To better face external threats is EXACTLY what this does.
...Humans are terrestrial creatures. And real world animal names are the scientific names of the Pokémon verse.

- Body Control: I don't see why it would extend to every Pokémon and not just to Chespin, since we have no proof that it is the same with other Pokémon.

...How many Pokémon have you seen get fat over the years?

- Matter and Light: We have no evidences that it is actually transmuting their attacks, we only see visual effects open to different interpretations, totally not valid to give those kind of powers.

How tf are these open to different interpretations!?

- Regeneration: I strongly disagree with this more than anything else, two of the examples are toon force gags, i.e. characters being flattened. The other two are game animations taken literally, they can't be used because they are not real representations. I don't know about the lava thing, since the video shows another thing, but we have enough evidences from the anime, manga and games that Pokémon can die from way less impressive injuries or just being damaged and knocked out, they are not all some kind of Majin Buu.

Pokémon isn't really a Toon Force anime. And game animations nowadays are real representations. Please explain what way less impressive injuries have killed a Pokémon. Also no Pokémon has ever been killed by being KOed.

- Resistance to Poison: I can accept the poison being less effective as they don't die from it, not being affected at all is just game mechanics to make the game easier.

Yeah, the only reason I really mentioned it is because they used to.

- Resistance to Acid: As I always said, I disagree with give additional effects to moves that only do a specific thing. Gastro acid just doesn't deal damage, and the stomach acid of supernatural snakes, frogs, spiders, monkeys, bears and even plants and rocks isn't the same. Same for corrosive gas, since in game it only targets the items and using the Iron Ball as an example is nitpicking a specific item just because the move works with everything.

That doesn't mean their stomach acid is weaker than a human's, especially if it's a Pokémon like Muk. The animation makes it clear that Corrosive Gas hits more than just the item. Are you trying to tell me it won't corrode an Iron Ball?

- Can you provide the source of all the guides or whatever they are to be sure they are official or usable?

If I did that, I'd have to provide EVERY source.

- Adaptation should be limited or overtime, since they can't do it on the fly.

...It does say over time.

- The third point in the accelerated development is useless, since it refers to trainers and the first video (as someone said before) is just to push irl kids to reading.

Yet mentioning trainers works in Automatic Translation? Also just because it's meant to push IRL kids to read doesn't mean it isn't from an official source.

- For healing it may be better to just use the actual food items in-game, rather than trading cards.

I like to provide sources from multiple timelines to prove they're legit.

- Are we sure that they recover for Transmutation on their own, and it isn't just an effect of restarting the game after a game over?

When you lose in any way, it's heavily implied (and also sometimes shown) that you retreat back to Treasure Town/Pokémon Square to try again the next day.

 

[SamanPatou]

And as I pointed out before, Clemont stated they were greater than 2.

I still think it's a generic way to say that teaming up makes you stronger, but I can accept a possibly.

It is specifically described as an ability to adapt to their environment. To better face external threats is EXACTLY what this does.
...Humans are terrestrial creatures. And real world animal names are the scientific names of the Pokémon verse.

But they don't do that, that scan describes an incredibly outdate conception of Pokémon, they were literally just invented. Pokémon don't adapt to the environment through evolution, they have set standards of transformation which are always the same.
Regional form are example of adaptation to different environments.
And reactive evolution is the ability to evolve on the fly with new abilities specifically designed to face the threat, something that Pokémon can't do, they evolve overtime, using items or meeting specific conditions, that's not reactive evolution.

...How many Pokémon have you seen get fat over the years?

No one, that's exactly why extending it to every Pokémon doesn't make sense, given that all Pokémon have unique traits and quirks. Some Pokémon are naturally fat, others shouldn't even be able to have fat since they are ghosts, plants or inorganic objects.
And picking something done by a single Pokémon and extending it to every one without further evidences is wrong.

How tf are these open to different interpretations!?

Because it's something that just happens without any explanation, to me it's nothing different from an explosion and the dust being wiped away, not some combination of powers.

Pokémon isn't really a Toon Force anime. And game animations nowadays are real representations. Please explain what way less impressive injuries have killed a Pokémon. Also no Pokémon has ever been killed by being KOed.

Pokémon has a lot of toon force things, actually.
Game animations aren't real representations, unless you want to say that Pokémon can create hands, swords, tentacles, harvesters and other things tand shapes hat simulate physical blows out of thin air, can hit the enemy without moving, can all create forcefields with protection and all other animations made just with the purpose of not being literal representations of what happens.
Accepting them means creating a huge list to make real all kind of animation and all the consequent power, otherwise it's cherrypicking.
Pokémon can be injured and ko'd by simple rams, punches and else, they can't all regenerate from being physically crushed, and also can logically die in battle without turned to ash each time to bypass some magical regeneration.

That doesn't mean their stomach acid is weaker than a human's, especially if it's a Pokémon like Muk. The animation makes it clear that Corrosive Gas hits more than just the item. Are you trying to tell me it won't corrode an Iron Ball?

Again, I'm simply totally against giving powers out of nothing when the move does everything else, otherwise we can give them resistance to the element of every move that doesn't cause damage.
And the animation again is just an animation fused with the fact that each move can be used on each Pokémon and item, it can corrode even objects that belong to the creation trio and such. And I have no problem accepting that it melts the iron orb, it just can't be used as a way to give a resistance to everyone for being unaffected by it. The gas can't melt specific items out of game mechanics, they also have super resistances? And this also makes weak moves like acid stupidly effective, since they can deal damage, but for doing so must be several times more corrosive than the gas.

If I did that, I'd have to provide EVERY source.

Yes, that's how things works, you provide a source and why it's reliable and official. Look at other CRTs, the Mario one was based on that and the 2-A Pokémon too, every CRT requires the opener to provide reasons why its source is reliable and what source is.

Yet mentioning trainers works in Automatic Translation? Also just because it's meant to push IRL kids to read doesn't mean it isn't from an official source.

It works since Pokémon can make themselves comprehensible to trainers.

When you lose in any way, it's heavily implied (and also sometimes shown) that you retreat back to Treasure Town/Pokémon Square to try again the next day.

Okay then, even though there are cases like Team Something being struck inside the Groudon dungeon and needing your help to get out, meaning that defeat Pokémon aren't always able to get back, especially if they have to go through dozens of floors again while ko'd.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I still think it's a generic way to say that teaming up makes you stronger, but I can accept a possibly.

Well, teaming up DOES make you stronger. In Pokémon terms, it just makes the two Pokémon more powerful than the sum of their parts.

But they don't do that, that scan describes an incredibly outdate conception of Pokémon, they were literally just invented. Pokémon don't adapt to the environment through evolution, they have set standards of transformation which are always the same.
Regional form are example of adaptation to different environments.
And reactive evolution is the ability to evolve on the fly with new abilities specifically designed to face the threat, something that Pokémon can't do, they evolve overtime, using items or meeting specific conditions, that's not reactive evolution.

Just because Pokémon can evolve in different ways now, doesn't mean they no longer adapt to the environment in the process. Heck, that's why some Pokémon like Mime Jr. only become Galarian after they evolve, and Pokémon like Pikachu only become Alolan after they evolve.

No one, that's exactly why extending it to every Pokémon doesn't make sense, given that all Pokémon have unique traits and quirks. Some Pokémon are naturally fat, others shouldn't even be able to have fat since they are ghosts, plants or inorganic objects.
And picking something done by a single Pokémon and extending it to every one without further evidences is wrong.

The thing about Snorlax is that he DOESN'T move. And if Pokémon with off physical makeup WERE to somehow get fat, that wouldn't mean they could not exercise to get rid of it.

Because it's something that just happens without any explanation, to me it's nothing different from an explosion and the dust being wiped away, not some combination of powers.

Considering the entire purpose is to give a great lightshow, and we directly see the smoke turn into sparkles, I don't see what else you think it could be.

Pokémon has a lot of toon force things, actually.
Game animations aren't real representations, unless you want to say that Pokémon can create hands, swords, tentacles, harvesters and other things tand shapes hat simulate physical blows out of thin air, can hit the enemy without moving, can all create forcefields with protection and all other animations made just with the purpose of not being literal representations of what happens.
Accepting them means creating a huge list to make real all kind of animation and all the consequent power, otherwise it's cherrypicking.
Pokémon can be injured and ko'd by simple rams, punches and else, they can't all regenerate from being physically crushed, and also can logically die in battle without turned to ash each time to bypass some magical regeneration.

Um... creating swords is exactly what Pokémon can do. They can make forcefields too. What do you think I did? And literally everything I have on this blog either has ≥2 redundant sources or has 1 with the other being so rare to find that I'm still searching. All of this is consistent. Losing stamina from being attacked doesn't debunk the fact they can heal. And yes, they CAN all regenerate, and to ignore this is to disregard every Pokémon's ability to survive the moves that do such, Meowth's unimportance and fodder status in the verse, and the consistency at which this happens.

Again, I'm simply totally against giving powers out of nothing when the move does everything else, otherwise we can give them resistance to the element of every move that doesn't cause damage.
And the animation again is just an animation fused with the fact that each move can be used on each Pokémon and item, it can corrode even objects that belong to the creation trio and such. And I have no problem accepting that it melts the iron orb, it just can't be used as a way to give a resistance to everyone for being unaffected by it. The gas can't melt specific items out of game mechanics, they also have super resistances? And this also makes weak moves like acid stupidly effective, since they can deal damage, but for doing so must be several times more corrosive than the gas.

Except not all of those elements would damage an ordinary human. Not taking damage from being growled at doesn't mean you're resistant to Sound Manipulation because doing that doesn't inherently hurt them. Having stomach acid vomited onto them does. Also items belonging to the Creation Trio means nothing, I'm sure there are humans who can snap Superman's glasses in half. Actually, those items should genuinely resist corrosion, tbh.

Yes, that's how things works, you provide a source and why it's reliable and official. Look at other CRTs, the Mario one was based on that and the 2-A Pokémon too, every CRT requires the opener to provide reasons why its source is reliable and what source is.

Yes, which is why I used sources.

It works since Pokémon can make themselves comprehensible to trainers.

If they're close enough, yes.

Okay then, even though there are cases like Team Something being struck inside the Groudon dungeon and needing your help to get out, meaning that defeat Pokémon aren't always able to get back, especially if they have to go through dozens of floors again while ko'd.

They didn't need your help because they were too injured, they needed your help because they were trapped inside. Even if they were, it would be because they lacked the necessary stamina to heal.

 

[SamanPatou]

- I mean, being stronger due to sheer number advantage isn't exactly a true power up, more like a natural side effect that works with everyone.

- That is still adaptation overtime, which I agree with. But their evolution is a natural growth process, like a kid that becomes a man and so on, they don't evolve in response to an attack or a specific situation or else. Using Doomsday as an example, he can become fireproof, develop gills and else, because reactive evolution is the quick capacity to evolve on the fly during combat. Pokémon can't do that.

- It's not just about Snorlax, other Pokémon are naturally fat, thick fat is also an ability. But my point is that we must be sure that a body property can reasonably extend to all others, otherwise we can pick any physical quirk and apply it to every Pokémon.

- I think it can be everything, even just manipulating the explosion or the energy itself in a specific way, we don't have true informations on what happened.
[/QUOTE]

- Those were just a few examples of animations, see all the hands created out of thin air, other swords with leaf blade but many moves have specific animations made to either look good or avoid animating every Pokémon, they can't be taken literally. And the Meowth and Arbok ones wre still gag scenes, personally I prefer something more consistent, given that the anime has a lot of gag scenes and being flattened is a common trope in cartoons.

- We sound moves so loud or intense that lowers your statistics, but also others that cause damage. or physical blows that don't do damage. My point is always that I'm against giving additional and unspecified powers to moves that do one thing, and them being stomach acid doesn't necessarily mean they are automatically super corrosive.

- You must specify what source is it and make it clear that it is usable and why. For example, the Nintendo Power guides, despite being official couldn't be used because was an american-only publication with no connection with the authors of the game.

- Weren't they injuried by the battle with Groudon? But being defeated shouldn't let you the stamina to go back through dozens of floors full of enemies, especially if you are turned into an item, but I'm mostly neutral on this.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

- I mean, being stronger due to sheer number advantage isn't exactly a true power up, more like a natural side effect that works with everyone.

"More than twice as strong as on their own" means they get stronger from teaming up, not because of their numbers. "Their potential is multiplied" supports this not being a numbers advantage thing.

- That is still adaptation overtime, which I agree with. But their evolution is a natural growth process, like a kid that becomes a man and so on, they don't evolve in response to an attack or a specific situation or else. Using Doomsday as an example, he can become fireproof, develop gills and else, because reactive evolution is the quick capacity to evolve on the fly during combat. Pokémon can't do that.

"A combination of Adaptation and Reactive Power Level, rather than adapting to better utilize their resources or rather than just growing stronger, the user improves in any number of ways to become more successful, durable, and powerful whenever their respective limits are tested." Pokémon have certainly evolved in response to having their limits tested before.

- It's not just about Snorlax, other Pokémon are naturally fat, thick fat is also an ability. But my point is that we must be sure that a body property can reasonably extend to all others, otherwise we can pick any physical quirk and apply it to every Pokémon.

Please name a fat Pokémon that would still be fat if it exercised.

- I think it can be everything, even just manipulating the explosion or the energy itself in a specific way, we don't have true informations on what happened.

Orrrr you just don't want to watch the gifs more than once.

- Those were just a few examples of animations, see all the hands created out of thin air, other swords with leaf blade but many moves have specific animations made to either look good or avoid animating every Pokémon, they can't be taken literally. And the Meowth and Arbok ones wre still gag scenes, personally I prefer something more consistent, given that the anime has a lot of gag scenes and being flattened is a common trope in cartoons.

Dude, we literally have Crash Bandicoot as having Mid Regeneration because of gags. And most of the other animations are just forms of abbreviating what happened.

- We sound moves so loud or intense that lowers your statistics, but also others that cause damage. or physical blows that don't do damage. My point is always that I'm against giving additional and unspecified powers to moves that do one thing, and them being stomach acid doesn't necessarily mean they are automatically super corrosive.

I'm only listing things that would negatively affect humans in real life, like being clouded in poison gas. And yes they do, because stomach acid's very purpose for any given life form is to break down food.

- You must specify what source is it and make it clear that it is usable and why. For example, the Nintendo Power guides, despite being official couldn't be used because was an american-only publication with no connection with the authors of the game.

...We literally use Nintendo Power stuff. OT Link has Class T Lifting Strength because of this very reason.

- Weren't they injuried by the battle with Groudon? But being defeated shouldn't let you the stamina to go back through dozens of floors full of enemies, especially if you are turned into an item, but I'm mostly neutral on this.

They don't get defeated, then immediately go home. Rescue Team DX makes it clear that they lay there KOed for a good while (though in context they shouldn't be out for more than a day).

 

[SamanPatou]

• It may be correct then, , I'd prefer a possibly or likely though.

• Yes, but they didn't do it in 5 seconds, but in thousands if not more years. Pokémon can't adapt on the fly to stuff like absence of oxygen, diseases, fire etc... like Reactive Evolution users do. They are limited by their 1 or 2 evolutions, which are those and nothing else.

• And you must prove that every Pokémon can do it, otherwise it's a NLF.

• I could watch it millions of time, it wouldn't change the fact that's just an unexplained explosion, you can't just say that it's the result of two powers, including something like matter manip. For what we know, I could say that it's reality warping or phyisics manipulation.

• Character who are prone to use toon force-like stuff have it, Crash is one of them, Pokémon aren't.

• No we don't, look at the last two-three Mario revisions, Nintendo Power has been rejected multiple times. If a page uses it, then it has to be revised due to being outdated.

• Ok

 

[Imaginym]

I'd say that Pokemon do act cartoonishly frequently, especially so in the anime.
Swirly eyes when fainted, how Pikachu would deform itself to pantomime Ash's other Pokemon, & I'm sure there's other examples.
There was also what Haunter & Gengar did.

 

[SamanPatou]

Doing cartoonish stuff in anime-only gags definitely isn't a reason to give a bunch of toon force powers to every Pokémon, otherwise who knows what we could take off, like mid-low instant regeneration for every human because Ash heals from having his face burned by Charmeleon and stuff like that.
It's the same reason why game animations can't be taken literally and used.

 

[Imaginym]

Doing cartoonish stuff in anime-only gags definitely isn't a reason to give a bunch of toon force powers to every Pokémon, otherwise who knows what we could take off, like mid-low instant regeneration for every human because Ash heals from having his face burned by Charmeleon and stuff like that.
It's the same reason why game animations can't be taken literally and used.

Even despite that the game animations & the anime have had Pokemon doing toon force stuff, including things like recovering from being flattened in both media, IIRC?

 

[SamanPatou]

They do almost the same thing but circumscribed to two specific things, unrelated to each other and not consistent.

Gags, by definition, are sequences meant to not be realistic representations of what happens, instead they habe the purpose of makking people laughing for how much weird and goofy the effects are, and these things don't translate in other instances in which the anime tries to be more serious. Gags change the law of reality for brief moments for the sake or fun. You can take them literally only in verses which are deliberately made to be totally in the context of toon force, such as Looney Tunes or The Mask.

Game animations have the purpose of going around technical limitations and represent the action, which clearly isn't a realistic representation.

We either make a dishoneste cherrypicking to pull out convenient powers or we turn the whole verse in a shitshot by taking for literal everything.
Counting game animations means accepting that Pokémon battles are performed by Pokémon who stand still, making only little movements and hitting each other from distance by materializing stuff out of thin air for combat purposes, either solid objects, limbs, elements etc... or using pseudo telekinesis to deliver even physical moves.
Same for gags, we look for every phyisic-breaking instance made for fun and we take it literally, ignoring all the clear contradictions that comes from using things made to not be literal representations of reality.

 

[Imaginym]

Right then. Would it help the case if I found instances of Pokemon recovering from being flattened or behaving cartoonishly in battles, especially in battles that otherwise wouldn't seem comical other than such unrealistic, cartoon-like physiology?

& what about stuff like toon force Haunter & Gengar displayed? I don't argue that their Toon Force applies to every species of Pokemon, especially with so few examples provided, but consider, say....
Like when Haunter pulled out a bomb, did jokes with it, & made the otherwise serious Sabrina laugh? I'd call that significant to the plot, & arguably, Sabrina's character, so it's not something you can deny as only being present to make the audience laugh, & being noncanonical otherwise.
Even if their Toon Force isn't entirely applicable to every species of Pokemon, it does help set-up a foundation for a precedent that species of Pokemon can do Toon Force things that are more than just gags meant to make the audience laugh.

& I agree that it wouldn't be reasonable to take all Game Animations entirely literally, though I don't think all of them should be disregarded. (Plus, there's stuff like scenery destruction, such as in Generation 6, where trees, rocks & other scenery will be affected by certain moves in battles.)
Though also I'm unsure about if we should disregard all game animations, especially if they're consistent with depictions of moves in other media in the franchise. & as far as I know, there hasn't been much evidence that, say Body Slam can inflict flattening that Pokemon can recover from in the anime. But I would think that would be consistent if both games & anime treated it as such.

 

[SamanPatou]

The problem is that toon force is stricly limited to some instances of the anime, it's not present in other media, especially videogames, which are the source material and generally aren't intended to represent reality. Ghost Pokémon are weird, given that they can make all sort of stuff, Gastly even turned into a mangoose. The bomb thing can be creation, illusion or something, it doesn't support toon force being applicable to the whole franchise.
And even humas are subject to toon force, not only Pokémon.

At the very most you can say that they can sometime display toon force, but it's far from something considered consistent and always valid, toon force itself encompasses a huge variety of things that can happen.

Some animations can be considered within reasons, Hyper Beam, Rock Slide and such tend to be consistent with the description of the move itself and how it is depicted in the anime. Slam shows a huge gray thing appearing over the opponent and flattening them, just like Crush Grip does the same with a hand that appear out of nowhere, Rototiller materializes a combine harvester , Punch and moves are dealt through apparent telekinesis etc..., those are meant to get around the limitations on Pokémon movements and show some effect, but they don't represent reality.

 

[Imaginym]

The problem is that toon force is stricly limited to some instances of the anime, it's not present in other media, especially videogames, which are the source material and generally aren't intended to represent reality. Ghost Pokémon are weird, given that they can make all sort of stuff, Gastly even turned into a mangoose. The bomb thing can be creation, illusion or something, it doesn't support toon force being applicable to the whole franchise.
And even humas are subject to toon force, not only Pokémon.

You say excluding the video game, but the flattening & recovering seems like a deliberate instance of Toon Force. (Though, I would say other instances of Toon Force in the games are sparse.) Also, you say Source Material, but we have Pokemon as Composite. We can't prioritine one over another.
It could be Creation, but Toon Force can also allow Creation, among other abilities. & the way it's portrayed is a clear, cartoon-ish manner (Not to mention NOT the only instance of important Toon Force Gengar, Haunter & Gastly displayed, I'd think.) that we'd call Toon Force.

Also, since you suggested it, I just wanna say now I'd disagree it being called Illusion Manipulation since we see an explosion, smoke & soot on Sabrina's face, both her real self & her child self. (Weird Psychic powers thing.) The simplest interpretation is that what we see happened, & the soot is indeed, actually there.

Also, saying they're Ghost-type exclusive things is weird; Other than only being done by Ghost types, not much supports WHY it would be Ghost-type exclusive, & Pikachu's pantomiming it does to try & communicate with Ash or others sometimes also seems Toon Force-esque sometimes, & I don't think Pikachu is a Ghost type.

Yes, there are humans with Toon Force, so why should we assume there aren't Pokemon with Toon Force? & again even if it's less common in the games, Composite; We can't deny its presence just because it's absent in some parts of the games when it's also present in a lot of the anime.

At the very most you can say that they can sometime display toon force, but it's far from something considered consistent and always valid, toon force itself encompasses a huge variety of things that can happen.

While they are not all of the species of Pokemon, the Pokemon I mentioned do display Toon Force consistently, I'd argue, & limited Toon Force is a thing, since some characters might only display it in some ways, but not others. Across all of media, there's a huge number of things Toon Force can allow. Off-screen teleportation, hiding behind things you're too big to hide behind, pulling hammers from out of nowhere, drastically changing your appearance, stretching really far, shooting steam out of your ears when you're angry....
To say they shouldn't have Toon Force just because they don't have EVERY kind of Toon Force.... I don't think that's a reasonable standard for any franchise. Limited Toon Force, especially for those who have demonstrated it, should be acceptable.

& if enough individuals or species show Toon Force, then it would be more reasonable to have it applicable to species more broadly, no?

Some animations can be considered within reasons, Hyper Beam, Rock Slide and such tend to be consistent with the description of the move itself and how it is depicted in the anime. Slam shows a huge gray thing appearing over the opponent and flattening them, just like Crush Grip does the same with a hand that appear out of nowhere, Rototiller materializes a combine harvester , Punch and moves are dealt through apparent telekinesis etc..., those are meant to get around the limitations on Pokémon movements and show some effect, but they don't represent reality.

Yes. Some animations are more or less consistent. & as early as RSE, Colosseum & XD, Body Slam's descriptions became "A full-body slam that may cause paralysis.", then in Fire Red & Leaf Green, Body Slam's descriptions in the main games became to the effect of "The user drops its full body on the foe. It may leave the foe paralyzed.", & from Generation 4 onwards, the move's description in the main games is always identical, or nearly so, to "The user drops onto the foe with its full body weight. It may leave the foe paralyzed."

& dropping onto the foe from above is how the animations attempt to portray the move, in Generation 6, 7, & the Let's Go Games, as well as how it's often portrayed in the anime. I can't speak for the flattening, because I haven't checked all the anime depictions yet, but it is a move that seems to be portrayed with some attempt at consistency between the descriptions, games & anime.