Pokemon Physiology Discussion Thread but I pretend it’s a wrestling match

[PlozAlcachaz]

Even splitting every single type in categories would just confirm how much Pokemon are different and have little things in common, it wouldn't be a physiology page anymore.

They have more than enough traits in common to warrant the Physiology page. He's saying that we would make sub-categories that are dedicated to things that are more specific to other Pokémon types (i.e. Non-Corporeal and Dimensional Travel for Ghost Types, the difference resistances each type has, etc.). That doesn't really prove anything about "how little they have in common;" it's a matter of they're even more diverse beyond just the overarching species as well.

It would be like listing every form of super saiyan in saiyan physiology, due to the impossibility of finding a common ground for everything.
Telepathy too shouldn't be there, if it's exclusive to legendaries and some other Pokemon (mainly psychic) it still doesn't fit a physiology page whose purpose is to index powers that every single Pokemon possesses by default just because it is a Pokemon.

That's a completely false analogy. We're not doing it to expand on what we can't find for common ground; we'd be doing it so the sub-species can have their ubiquitous traits classified as well. Digimon has an entire section dedicated to the Holy Power and Dark Power for their verse in a similar fashion.

Yes, that's why he's advocating for Legendaries only, not the entire Physiology.

 

[SamanPatou]

Fair enough, you're right about the sub categories and the analogy with Holy and Dark power

 

[Tllmbrg]

Anyways here's a list of all em resistances for each type:

Normal, Fighting, Bug, Fairy: gets nothing
Fire: Limited Resistance to status inducements or heat manipulation because I don't know what burns count as also resistance to fire manipulation and resistance to Ice Manipulation (Other types resistances don't add much)
Water: Resistance to fire manipulation and possibly all get underwater breathing, tho Pokemon like Swanna make me doubtful Aldo all besides maybe Pyukumuku get water manipulation
Flying: Outside the Dodrio line they all get flight
Grass: Resistance to electricity Manipulation and Water Manipulation, possibly absorption of water because Bulbubser did take in Gyrodas's hydro pump in manga when Red fought Misty
Poison: Resistance to poison manipulation and poison manipulation
Electric: Resistance to electricity manipulation and electricity manipulation
Ground: Resistance to electricity manipulation
Rock: Resistance to poison and fire manipulation
Ice: Resistance to Ice Manipulation
Psychic: Probably resistance to mind manipulation and having it since psychic types usually take inspiration from stuff like and telekinesis shit
Dragon: Resistance to Elemental Manipulation besides Ice
Ghost: Intangibility and type 7 Immortality (All ghosts are dead so)
Dark: Resistance to anything a psychic type move can do
Steel: Resistance to poison manipulation

If anyone has anything to add or change do tell

 

[Imaginym]

@Tllmbrg Apologies if anyone minds me bringing this up as I often do, but very few Psychic attacks actually involve Mind Manipulation, as opposed to Telekinesis or Energy Projection.
Confusion (the move) & Psybeam can inflict Confusion (the status), but unlike damage from Psychic-type moves, Psychic type Pokemon are just as likely to get confused by these moves as other types of Pokemon, & have no immunity to the status, unlike Fire-types to Burns, Ice types to Freezing, Electric types to Paralysis, Grass-types to Spore & Powder moves, & Poison-types to Poison.

Regarding Water-types Water breathing, I wonder if Pokemon like Wingull can also breath underwater indefinitely.

In Pokemon Amie, & Pokemon Refresh (& possibly Gen 8, I haven't played it.), attempting to touch intangible/"Spooky" parts of Ghost-type Pokemon will distinctly affect the cursor, with sound effects & appearance for the cursor specifically for this. The Pokemon also behave as if expecting you to do something, implying they aren't very affected by contact there. (As opposed to the norm, where contact can be pleasant petting or poking that irritates the Pokemon & such.)
This would suggest that many Ghost-type Pokemon have tangible parts; They aren't completely intangible.
Dimensional Travel for any/all Ghost-types needs more evidence that can be assumed to be applicable to multiple species.

Bug resists Ground, which in some cases, we might consider Earth-manipulation. Is that notable? I suppose there's also questions of if resisting Grass is notable.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Welp Dark types still get resistance to mind manipulation then.
What spores counts under power wise?

I suppose limited intangibility for ghosts?
Also why you're talking about dimensional travel for them, I never brought it up

There're ground type moves which aren't earth manipulation, plus it's basically throwing ground at you so resistance to it would just mean higher durability against it

 

[NeoZex6399]

I would say that many ghost pokémon can be touched in Amie, because they allow themselves to be touched.

After all, that's Amie's point.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Also being a ghost type does not always mean being a ghost, the ghost type is also synonymous with spiritual powers or curses.
Sableye, Marowak and Oricorio are examples of this.

 

[NeoZex6399]

However, an active intangibility for all ghost type pokemon is something I can see feasible.

 

[Imaginym]

Welp Dark types still get resistance to mind manipulation then.
What spores counts under power wise?

I suppose limited intangibility for ghosts?
Also why you're talking about dimensional travel for them, I never brought it up

My bad, I think I confused it with content from this post of PlotAlcachaz's.

There're ground type moves which aren't earth manipulation, plus it's basically throwing ground at you so resistance to it would just mean higher durability against it

Ah okay. Makes sense. (Earth Power is, funnily enough, debatably Earth Manipulation in terms of how it damages. Still Earth Manipulation in the AP, I think, though.)

I would say that many ghost pokémon can be touched in Amie, because they allow themselves to be touched.

After all, that's Amie's point.

Except, as said, when you touch their intangible parts, they act as if you aren't interacting with them, confused, or expecting you to do something, IIRC.
So if they can make you able to touch those parts of them, they aren't doing so, & unlike as is normal for Pokemon (some ghosts likely included.) they AREN'T responding negatively to attempted contact. Some Pokemon will lash out when you touch certain parts of them.

It doesn't seem to be a case of aversion to contact, so it's likely not exercising activated intangibility.
& the intangible parts are ALWAYS intangible, even for Ghost types that have other tangible parts, so they aren't willing themselves to be touched in the "Spooky" parts.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I think spore moves would be fungus manipulation and grass types mons are even used as an example on that page iirc.

EDiT: Yup I was right.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Then all grass types resist fungus manipulation

 

[Imaginym]

Powder moves may also be Pollen Manipulation, if that's a thing. Or Plant Manipulation? Limited Organic Manipulation?
Stun Spore is described as numbing, & it, Sleep Powder & Poison Powder, are called dust or powder. Powder is combustible dust, Rage Powder is irritating powder, Magic Powder is Magic Powder....
Do we give Grass-types (Limited) Resistances to the Powers/Abilities the effects of those moves would have in our system?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Seems reasonable to me

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

My bad, I think I confused it with content from this post of PlotAlcachaz's.

I brought up Dimensional Travel because a lot of them are able to go to the Spirit World. Haunter's Pokédex entry talks about how it came from the Spirit World to the main one, there is an Anime episode where a bunch of Litwick and Lampent open a portal to it, Dusknoir is frequently stated to be able to go there (there was also even another ghost girl spirit who did that too in one episode with Dusknoir present), etc. It just seems like a very common attribute for them to have. I'll try to find more examples of it later but these ones came to the top of my head.

 

[Imaginym]

Alright. Thank you for the answer! Myself, I'm neutral on Dimensional Travel; Unsure if it's something we can readily assume all Ghost-types have, or even may have, but I want to know the stances of other users.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I think a possibly is better imo, since there's no real statements about all of them being able to do it and we're inferring of various Poekdex entries

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I think a possibly is better imo, since there's no real statements about all of them being able to do it and we're inferring of various Poekdex entries

I don't think they all need statements for it, personally. It's pretty much just something you would get from contextual implications; it shouldn't require outright specification. The point is that ghosts/spirits in Pokémon have shown the frequent ability to travel between dimensions. If even nameless apparitions can do it (ones that do not even matter), I don't see why the specialized type can't do it either. After all, it's the world of spirits. It's a place they originate from and share a connection.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Removed Resurrection and Longevity upon overwhelming request, and added Damage Boost, Healing, and a ton more evidence.

 

[Imaginym]

Removed Resurrection and Longevity upon overwhelming request, and added Damage Boost, Healing, and a ton more evidence.

Are the arguments for the removed abilities preserved somewhere, in case they become appropriate enough to bring up again in the future?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Removed Resurrection and Longevity upon overwhelming request, and added Damage Boost, Healing, and a ton more evidence.

I massively disagree with removing the Resurrection. The entire argument against it was that it only happened in the Mew and Mewtwo scene, but the people who said that clearly don't know what they're talking about. It's something they acknowledge as happening earlier in the chronology in the exact same movie, not in the same circumstances, and they repeat it in an alternate universe movie. Something not being in your face across the franchise at every turn doesn't mean they don't have the ability either.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Are the arguments for the removed abilities preserved somewhere, in case they become appropriate enough to bring up again in the future?

Yes, blogs have a History too.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I massively disagree with removing the Resurrection. The entire argument against it was that it only happened in the Mew and Mewtwo scene, but the people who said that clearly don't know what they're talking about. It's something they acknowledge as happening earlier in the chronology in the exact same movie, not in the same circumstances, and they repeat it in an alternate universe movie.

If I had a link to the statement and/or a link to it actually working, I'd be able to put it back on.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I can get a link to the scene later. The person who even had a problem with it went hasn't said anything in response when their notion was blatantly incorrect.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I don't think they all need statements for it, personally. It's pretty much just something you would get from contextual implications; it shouldn't require outright specification. The point is that ghosts/spirits in Pokémon have shown the frequent ability to travel between dimensions. If even nameless apparitions can do it (ones that do not even matter), I don't see why the specialized type can't do it either. After all, it's the world of spirits. It's a place they originate from and share a connection.

A likely then, since again we're inferring based on a few Pokemon and some general stuff

 

[SamanPatou]

It doesn't matter if the resurrection things is referenced in the same movie, since it's limited only to it and it doesn't extend to any other media, it's a thing that is valid for every verse, not just Pokemon.
And the remake is, well, a remake, of course it has the original scene.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

It doesn't matter if the resurrection things is referenced in the same movie, since it's limited only to it and it doesn't extend to any other media, it's a thing that is valid for every verse, not just Pokemon.
And the remake is, well, a remake, of course it has the original scene.

It matters when part of the old refute was "it was an emotionally charged scene and not something they could replicate again" when that's just false by the narrative of the same movie. Okay, I'm going to ask again, why does it need to be shown numerous times outside of the movie? We accept the movies as canon, so they influence the profiles by proxy of having a place in the continuity.

I'd like to see an actual example where an ability was decided to not be indexed, even though it's something they blatantly show. Also, I Choose You! isn't a direct remake, either. It revisits the first season with some shared elements, but the actual movie is a completely original story in a self-contained alternate universe. If it's even demonstrated in another movie at all, the idea it only applies to Mewtwo Strikes Back becomes immediately invalidated.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I've found a source on the tears quote being mentioned. All we need now is a link to the feat actually happening and we'll have more than enough proof for Resurrection.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Wait a minute, the Digimon Physiology page doesn't have a single source, why do we need all this proof for the Pokemon one?

 

[SamanPatou]

My problem with the resurrection thing is that it is an extremely vagua plot armor thing not recognized by any other source.
If Pokemon tears actually have had the power to casually resurrect beings, then it would have been recognized and used at least somewhere else, no even the anime itself does that and in the other sources humans and Pokemon still die.

If the Digimon Physiology is unsourced then it has to be fixed, not used as an example to make another unsourced page.
I'll try to report that in some thread.
Edit: Done, I asked in the Digimon Discussion Thread

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I think that for a lot of sources, either nobody dies or the person who dies doesn't have enough Pokémon to replicate the feat, much less be in the mindset to cry to replicate the feat.

 

[SamanPatou]

The sources for Digimon Physiology are all in the blog linked in the page itself.

Either way, it's something really specific and inconsistent, that's why I'm very iffy on it, it's more like a miracle than else.
I mean, if it was so easy and common it would be at least used or mentioned somewhere else, at least a single time, outside that single movie.
We can still find a compromise and put it as possibly or something else, though.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

My problem with the resurrection thing is that it is an extremely vagua plot armor thing not recognized by any other source.
If Pokemon tears actually have had the power to casually resurrect beings, then it would have been recognized and used at least somewhere else, no even the anime itself does that and in the other sources humans and Pokemon still die.

Plot armor argument hardly stands when it's just a repeat of something that happens earlier chronologically. There is a precedent for it to happen at that point. They don't just casually resurrect beings; that's overexaggerating it. It is literally recognized in another movie when the exact same ability reoccurs. They don't tend to kill off people on-screen either so of course you're not going to see it that much. Not being used in [x situation] isn't much of an excuse either. It's seemingly most effective when it's a group together (Pikachu's might just be through an abnormally strong bond), so it could also play into that too.

 

[SamanPatou]

It's still tied to many assumptions, and the references are still in an earlier point of the movie and in its own remake, it's always the same source.
Pokemon and humans don't die on screen (aside form the first series of the manga) but it is heavily implied throughout the games that both die of naturals means or in battle, like the great war and more.
I can get that it may require a large amount of Pokemon, but personally I'd like more consistency and less assumptions.

Another thing, iirc they make Ash come back from being petrified, why we assume it's resurrection and not some form of purification?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

It's still tied to many assumptions, and the references are still in an earlier point of the movie and in its own remake, it's always the same source.
Pokemon and humans don't die on screen (aside form the first series of the manga) but it is heavily implied throughout the games that both die of naturals means or in battle, like the great war and more.
I can get that it may require a large amount of Pokemon, but personally I'd like more consistency and less assumptions.

Another thing, iirc they make Ash come back from being petrified, why we assume it's resurrection and not some form of purification?

Okay, what in that response was an assumption at all. 2/3 instances are done in groups of Pokemon while the other is done in a scene with one where a Pokemons shares an abnormally strong bond. Those aren't random assumptions at all; they're inferences and observations. The movie isn't a simple remake. I don't see why this has to keep being repeated. You'd have a case if we were just pulling from the literal remake, but we're taking something from an alternate universe movie that bears some similarities to Mewtwo Strikes Back. Leaving out details to make your case doesn't look good in the long run. If they are in a war, what moment do you have to just stop the battle and cry? Most instances of warfare in Pokemon just go with flat out annihilation too. The Ultimate Weapon killed pretty much most people involved, not much you can do there.

I'd say it's honestly fine as it is. We know it's not just a random, unexplored thing because it's referenced earlier in the same movie. I'm gonna advise we stop calling them assumptions too, that's not the proper word here. It's counted as a form of Resurrection I suppose because it's treated under the same context of the other two scenes. Most this would do is maybe give them both abilities. If it really bothers you that much, we can just say "possibly/likely" and move on from it. This is pretty minor in the long run.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, I'm not the truth embodied, if the majority of people wants it without possibly/likely then let's do it, I can settle with it though.

And the example of the war was just to say that Pokemon and humans don't only die in extremely rare occasions, death is a common thing in the Pokemon world.
And if a single strong bond is needed, I guess we would have cases like Marowak being resurrected by the tears of Cubone and other examples, that's what I mean with inconsistency and assumptions, i.e. saying it's a perfectly fine thing that every Pokemon may do but it's not reference anywhere else aside from the same movie or another which is always an alternate version of it.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Well, I'm not the truth embodied, if the majority of people wants it without possibly/likely then let's do it, I can settle with it though.

And the example of the war was just to say that Pokemon and humans don't only die in extremely rare occasions, death is a common thing in the Pokemon world.
And if a single strong bond is needed, I guess we would have cases like Marowak being resurrected by the tears of Cubone and other examples, that's what I mean with inconsistency and assumptions, i.e. saying it's a perfectly fine thing that every Pokemon may do but it's not reference anywhere else aside from the same movie or another which is always an alternate version of it.

Sounds simple because this seems like a weird point to keep dragging out.

I understand it's not a rare instance, but it's not something that can be pulled off in a lot of situations would be the point. Pikachu is the main one doing it but it's all because of the other Pokemon there too IIRC. In any case, all that'd do is maybe throw in question the Pikachu scene. The others are concretely mentioned as needing an entire group to restore lives. An alternative version isn't really the right classification either. It takes some inspiration from it mainly, that's really it. It's a completely original plot otherwise. A decent amount of these things aren't mentioned in absolutely every medium. That's kind of expecting a lot when Pokemon juggles a lot of different writers for the many different teams it covers, even for singular mediums. As long as it's not dumb inconsistent (Dialga dying to a time paradox in Mystery Dungeon kinds of dumb when it was still canon), then it should be fine.

 

[NeoZex6399]

As long as it's not dumb inconsistent (Dialga dying to a time paradox in Mystery Dungeon kinds of dumb when it was still canon), then it should be fine.

It was Primal Dialga the one who was affected.

 

[NeoZex6399]

And what about Aura again? I'm sure it's been stated several times that all Pokémon have aura.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Btw does anyone wants to make a draft for the page using what was agreed on powerwise?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

What do you mean what was agreed on powerwise? Like, for Pokémon Physiology?