Pokemon intelligence and stamina CRT/Discussion

[Arceus0x]

So the purpose of this thread is to both revise and discuss the current stamina and intelligence ratings.

A Pokemon profile standards page was made and it has the bare minimum used for all of them.

Now the question is, what stamina do we use for pokemon? and also what specific intelligence ratings should we give to some specific pokemon?

As of right now i know that
-Machamp gets Genius intelligence in combat due to knowing all forms of martial arts
-Alakazam and Metagross get genius to extraordinary genius due to both thinking faster than supercomputers and the former having an IQ of 4000 and the latter having an even more intelligent mega evo. Metagross' intelligence downscale to his pre-evolutions accordingly.
-Blipbug and Dottler should scale to above average and Orbeetle should be at least Gifted


My suggestions are to make 2nd stage and 3rd starter pokemon scale to ''Gifted' and in addition in here is support for 3rd stage pokemon in general being 'Gifted' in battle and here are the reasons:
Decidueye "It fires arrow quills from its wings with such precision, they can pierce a pebble at distances over a hundred yards." which proves his extreme skill level in terms of arrow shooting, we've got Sceptile "The leaves that grow on its arms can slice down thick trees. It is without peer in jungle combat."
We have greninja "It appears and vanishes with a ninja's grace. It toys with its enemies using swift movements, while slicing them with throwing stars of sharpest water." "...Greninja's swift movements confound its opponents, and it can compress water into sharp-edged throwing stars." "With the grace of a ninja, it slips in and out of sight to attack from the shadows."
Emboar "It has mastered fast and powerful fighting moves. It grows a beard of fire."
Dewott "As a result of strict training, each Dewott learns different forms for using the scalchops."
Servine "They avoid attacks by sinking into the shadows of thick foliage. They retaliate with masterful whipping techniques."
Inteleon "Its nictitating membranes let it pick out foes' weak points so it can precisely blast them with water that shoots from its fingertips at Mach 3."
G-max "It has excellent sniping skills. Shooting a berry rolling along over nine miles away is a piece of cake for this Pokémon."
As of now we also have Dewott's "Its exquisite double-scalchop technique is likely the result of daily training, and it can send even masters of the blade fleeing in defeat".
Sawk "Desiring the strongest karate chop, they seclude themselves in mountains and train without sleeping."
Vikavolt "Vikavolt flusters opponents with acrobatic flying maneuvers. This creates an opening for it to deliver an electric beam attack."

I also suggest scaling all fighting type pokemon to 'Gifted' due to the concentration of highly skilled lower stage fighting mons
Mienfoo "They have mastered elegant combos. As they concentrate, their battle moves become swifter and more precise." (would make mienfoo scale to gifted)
Crabrawler "Its hard pincers are well suited to both offense and defense. Fights between two Crabrawler are like boxing matches."

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Now for the next part i want to discuss Stamina and Intelligence ratings for Legendaries.

Some are obvious like Extraordinary genius for Mewtwo (created a super complex lab from scraps in a short time frame, that lab having latest complex technology and mechanisms as well as a perfected cloning machine that clones superior pokemon to the originals in less than a minute. In comparison Team Rocket's scientists could only successfuly clone Mewtwo from Mew and that took them ages to do, despite having the latest tech).

Some are more unclear like Groudon and Kyogre.

So my suggestion is to have the minimum of "Gifted" in combat for all of them except maybe the likes of Manaphee.

Deoxys should be naturally Gifted (Deoxys emerged from a virus that came from space. It is highly intelligent and wields psychokinetic powers. This Pokémon shoots lasers from the crystalline organ on its chest). It was also able to go toe to toe with Mewtwo so there's that.

Ultra Beasts and those who scale from them should also be Gifted since they manhandle average fully evolved pokemon and Buzzwole stomped a few Machamp.

Calyrex should scale to at least Gifted intelligence since it was stated to have ruled Galar at one point


Kubfu should be gifted "Kubfu trains hard to perfect its moves. The moves it masters will determine which form it takes when it evolves."
Urshifu should probably scale to Genius in combat since it is extremely well trained and it has refined its personal style to the max "Inhabiting the mountains of a distant region, this Pokémon races across sheer cliffs, training its legs and refining its moves."

I would also like to propose scaling ALL legendaries shown capable of speech to average intelligence at minimum since all of the ones who have spoken have shown higher cognitive ability than your average pokemon.

Now the main question comes to this...
What should the Creation duo scale to? I say duo cause Arceus is clear but what about Palkia Dialga and even Giratina? This is something i don't get and thus i need help with this one.

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Stamina.
As for stamina i believe that superhuman stamina should be added by scaling from Riolu who can do this: "Its body is little yet powerful. It can crest three mountains and cross two canyons in one night." and Bulbasaur "It can go for days without eating a single morsel. In the bulb on its back, it stores energy".
This should scale to everyone except for the likes of magikarp.

If there are any other suggestions surrounding this then please let me know.

Overall:

Proposals:
-Alakazam and Metagross to Genius/E.Genius
-Machamp to Genius in combat
-Gifted in combat for 3rd stages
-Starters get Gifted in combat for 2nd and 3rd stages
-All fighting types get Gifted in combat in all stages
-All Legendaries get Gifted in combat
-Deoxys is Gifted normally
-Calyrex is Gifted normally
-Stamina is above Superhuman for all

Needs to be discussed:
-Intelligence rating for CT except Arceus
-Stamina ratings need discussion

 

[Thelastmlg]

The CT does seem to be knownledgeable on reality and their duties, but they all still act like simblings fighting over the smallest things, though a lot of the time they are controlled so there is that.

I think is fine for them to be nigh omniscient or not have a rating, but a phrase about their nature and role and stuff instead

 

[Arceus0x]

bump

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

I feel a little iffy on scaling Pokemon's intelligence/skill to each other just because they're all starters or the same stage.

 

[Arceus0x]

I feel a little iffy on scaling Pokemon's intelligence/skill to each other just because they're all starters or the same stage.

They're clearly able to combat each other on equal terms and i already showed you a bunch of them who have clear gifted intelligence. I mean how would a above average lad fight a guy who stomps master swordsmen?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Seems fine to me.

 

[Imaginym]

They're clearly able to combat each other on equal terms and i already showed you a bunch of them who have clear gifted intelligence. I mean how would a above average lad fight a guy who stomps master swordsmen?

Pokemon are comparable, not exactly equal, & many fight with different styles & some have descriptions that indicate their fighting abilities are imperfect.
Thus, there's more to what makes Pokemon comparable or not than just skill, since there's statistical differences, however minor, tactics, abilities, etc.

Plus, skills may not always be relevant. Knowing lots of graceful combos doesn't necessarily mean you can dodge a hurricane or are familiar with lasers or such.

 

[FinePoint]

Oh boy, wall of text. Here we go.

---

Decidueye "It fires arrow quills from its wings with such precision, they can pierce a pebble at distances over a hundred yards." which proves his extreme skill level in terms of arrow shooting, we've got Sceptile "The leaves that grow on its arms can slice down thick trees. It is without peer in jungle combat."
We have greninja "It appears and vanishes with a ninja's grace. It toys with its enemies using swift movements, while slicing them with throwing stars of sharpest water." "...Greninja's swift movements confound its opponents, and it can compress water into sharp-edged throwing stars." "With the grace of a ninja, it slips in and out of sight to attack from the shadows."
Emboar "It has mastered fast and powerful fighting moves. It grows a beard of fire."
Dewott "As a result of strict training, each Dewott learns different forms for using the scalchops."
Servine "They avoid attacks by sinking into the shadows of thick foliage. They retaliate with masterful whipping techniques."
Inteleon "Its nictitating membranes let it pick out foes' weak points so it can precisely blast them with water that shoots from its fingertips at Mach 3."
G-max "It has excellent sniping skills. Shooting a berry rolling along over nine miles away is a piece of cake for this Pokémon."
As of now we also have Dewott's "Its exquisite double-scalchop technique is likely the result of daily training, and it can send even masters of the blade fleeing in defeat".
Sawk "Desiring the strongest karate chop, they seclude themselves in mountains and train without sleeping."
Vikavolt "Vikavolt flusters opponents with acrobatic flying maneuvers. This creates an opening for it to deliver an electric beam attack."

I don't see how any of this is evidence that all 2nd stage Starters should be gifted. The descriptions seem more like Above Average.
Gifted for 3rd stage was already accepted, but this seems like good supporting evidence.

I also suggest scaling all fighting type pokemon to 'Gifted' due to the concentration of highly skilled lower stage fighting mons
Mienfoo "They have mastered elegant combos. As they concentrate, their battle moves become swifter and more precise." (would make mienfoo scale to gifted)

Maybe?

Crabrawler "Its hard pincers are well suited to both offense and defense. Fights between two Crabrawler are like boxing matches."

This doesn't sound like it requires gifted intelligence in the slightest.

Some are obvious like Extraordinary genius for Mewtwo (created a super complex lab from scraps in a short time frame, that lab having latest complex technology and mechanisms as well as a perfected cloning machine that clones superior pokemon to the originals in less than a minute. In comparison Team Rocket's scientists could only successfuly clone Mewtwo from Mew and that took them ages to do, despite having the latest tech).

As I've said before I'm fine with EG for Mewtwo.

Deoxys should be naturally Gifted (Deoxys emerged from a virus that came from space. It is highly intelligent and wields psychokinetic powers. This Pokémon shoots lasers from the crystalline organ on its chest). It was also able to go toe to toe with Mewtwo so there's that.

Maybe, but only based on that last part.

Ultra Beasts and those who scale from them should also be Gifted since they manhandle average fully evolved pokemon and Buzzwole stomped a few Machamp.

Isn't this because of a power difference?

Calyrex should scale to at least Gifted intelligence since it was stated to have ruled Galar at one point

This doesn't require gifted intelligence.

Kubfu should be gifted "Kubfu trains hard to perfect its moves. The moves it masters will determine which form it takes when it evolves."
Urshifu should probably scale to Genius in combat since it is extremely well trained and it has refined its personal style to the max "Inhabiting the mountains of a distant region, this Pokémon races across sheer cliffs, training its legs and refining its moves."

I'm not seeing solid evidence here. Isn't there more about their skills?

I would also like to propose scaling ALL legendaries shown capable of speech to average intelligence at minimum since all of the ones who have spoken have shown higher cognitive ability than your average pokemon.

I would like to see more specific evidence.

Now the main question comes to this...
What should the Creation duo scale to? I say duo cause Arceus is clear but what about Palkia Dialga and even Giratina? This is something i don't get and thus i need help with this one.

I'm not sure either. Its current justification is pure cap. Controlling space in no way makes you nigh-omniscient. We would need to collect feats.

Stamina.
As for stamina i believe that superhuman stamina should be added by scaling from Riolu who can do this: "Its body is little yet powerful. It can crest three mountains and cross two canyons in one night." and Bulbasaur "It can go for days without eating a single morsel. In the bulb on its back, it stores energy".
This should scale to everyone except for the likes of magikarp.

These are both terrible examples. The first could be referring to speed, and the second very obviously states that it stores energy in the bulb on its back.

---

Overall, I strongly disagree with generalizing feats to entire classes and types like Legendary and Fighting based on this limited evidence, some of which is dubious.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Amazing, the mad man did it. I absolutely disagree with this, with... pretty much everything, I guess. I will give a more indepth input later.

 

[Arceus0x]

I don't see how any of this is evidence that all 1st and 2nd stage Pokémon should be gifted. These are very specific Pokémon. There's over 300 first stage Pokémon alone. You can't generalize all of them based on a dozen examples.

Except i want starter pokemon to have gifted for both 2nd and 3rd stages, not all

 

[FinePoint]

Except i want starter pokemon to have gifted for both 2nd and 3rd stages, not all

Oh. I see now. Sorry, I'm very sleep deprived and misread it.

Gifted for 3rd stages is already accepted, and the second stage evidence seems more like Above Average than Gifted.

 

[Arceus0x]

second stage evidence seems more like Above Average than Gifted

Pretty sure beating master sworsmen is more than above average

 

[FinePoint]

Pretty sure beating master sworsmen is more than above average

Yeah, but that's just Dewott.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah, but that's just Dewott.

But other starters can fight with him directly

 

[FinePoint]

But other starters can fight with him directly

Because they're comparable in strength.
Gifted and Above Average aren't so far from each other that's not possible.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Scaling intelligence/skill like that is really terrible.
You do not need to be exactly as skilled as someone to be able to fight them, it isn't something you're capable of powerscale.
What, do you think anyone who fights a pokemon who knows all martial arts, also knows every martial arts? Obviously not.

 

[Arceus0x]

Whatever, what are your thoughts on stamina and intelligence of Dialga palkia and Giratina?

 

[Arceus0x]

These are both terrible examples. The first could be referring to speed, and the second very obviously states that it stores energy in the bulb on its back.

Wouldn't agree with that but whatever.

Either way what do you propose then? We can't leave the stamina blank considering the ratings are no longer arbitrary

 

[FinePoint]

Wouldn't agree with that but whatever.

Either way what do you propose then? We can't leave the stamina blank considering the ratings are no longer arbitrary

Well, for Bulbasaur I'm mostly disagreeing with "This should scale to everyone except for the likes of magikarp."
It still works as a feat for Bulbasaur specifically.

While I think Riolu's is kind of ambiguous if it's speed or stamina, I'd be fine with listing it as well.
Though disagree with generalizing this to anyone else.

 

[Arceus0x]

Well, for Bulbasaur I'm mostly disagreeing with "This should scale to everyone except for the likes of magikarp."
It still works as a feat for Bulbasaur specifically.

While I think Riolu's is kind of ambiguous if it's speed or stamina, I'd be fine with listing it as well.
Though disagree with generalizing this to anyone else.

Ok but where will we scale everyone else then?

 

[FinePoint]

Ok but where will we scale everyone else then?

Isn't that already on the standards page?

 

[Arceus0x]

Isn't that already on the standards page?

They're wrong, there are specific ratings and there are none on the standards page. We need to have either peak or superhuman stamina or whatever yall think is right and we need it to fit the standards.

 

[FinePoint]

They're wrong, there are specific ratings and there are none on the standards page. We need to have either peak or superhuman stamina or whatever yall think is right and we need it to fit the standards.

Aren't the specific terms optional?

Most fights don't strike me as any more impressive relatively than sports like boxing or wrestling.

However, if we wanted to find a high-end, we might be able to consider status conditions, such as Pokémon fighting for a while paralyzed or on fire.

 

[Arceus0x]

Aren't the specific terms optional?

Most fights don't strike me as any more impressive relatively than sports like boxing or wrestling.

However, if we wanted to find a high-end, we might be able to consider status conditions, such as Pokémon fighting for a while paralyzed or on fire.

So do we just give em superhuman?

 

[FinePoint]

So do we just give em superhuman?

Maybe for pain tolerance, but the other categories I don't see evidence for.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Btw, in the profile, palkia's avatar is very high, possibly nigh omniscient and his true form is night omniscient, the justification is embodying space, not controlling it

 

[FinePoint]

Btw, in the profile, palkia's avatar is very high, possibly nigh omniscient and his true form is night omniscient, the justification is embodying space, not controlling it

In what way does embodying space make you nigh-omniscient?

 

[Thelastmlg]

I assume it was because, being space, time and matter means you gotta be aware of everything, especially since you created it, but yeah the justification is weak.

Though wasn't the creation trio that created uxiel togheter?

 

[FinePoint]

I assume it was because, being space, time and matter means you gotta be aware of everything, especially since you created it, but yeah the justification is weak.

Though wasn't the creation trio that created uxiel togheter?

I thought it was just Arceus, and that's not listed as their justificaiton.

And that argument is dismantled with some basic logic. I'm not aware of everything going on inside my own body, and I have far less to keep track of than Palkia.
Creating space doesn't grant you all knowledge of it either, at least not anything other than its initial state.

In general it's possible to create [something] without instantly gaining all (or most) knowledge of it forever.

 

[Thelastmlg]

1. The difference is that you are not omnipresent in your body, while palkia is through space, but yeah.

2. From what i remember, they created him from their bodies or mind, i forgot, arceus gets it because anything that's past of the creation trio, is part of him

 

[Sniper670]

I thought it was just Arceus, and that's not listed as their justificaiton.

And that argument is dismantled with some basic logic. I'm not aware of everything going on inside my own body, and I have far less to keep track of than Palkia.
Creating space doesn't grant you all knowledge of it either, at least not anything other than its initial state.

In general it's possible to create [something] without instantly gaining all (or most) knowledge of it forever.

Well, Palkia is the ruler of space afterall. And has been said several times to have complete control over it, basically embodying the entirety of space.

In Platinum:
"The birth of Palkia. The creator of parallel dimensions... Alive, yet not alive... Everything drifts in space... To arrive in the same universe. It is a blessing of Palkia."

In PLA:
"Palkia, once created, brought forth the many dimensions. All things—alive or not alive— arrive at the same space. Such is the blessing of Palkia"

Sounds like it is by his own approval that traversal between universes is even possible. So yeah, he should know all there is to it

Same for Giratina who's Omniscient within the distortion world

Sounds to me like the Creation trio are Omniscient within their area of embodiment . I mean, why not, there possibly infinite universes and timelines to keep track of

 

[FinePoint]

Well, Palkia is the ruler of space afterall. And has been said several times to have complete control over it, basically embodying the entirety of space.

In Platinum:
"The birth of Palkia. The creator of parallel dimensions... Alive, yet not alive... Everything drifts in space... To arrive in the same universe. It is a blessing of Palkia."

In PLA:
"Palkia, once created, brought forth the many dimensions. All things—alive or not alive— arrive at the same space. Such is the blessing of Palkia"

Sounds like it is by his own approval that traversal between universes is even possible. So yeah, he should know all there is to it

Same for Giratina who's Omniscient within the distortion world

Sounds to me like the Creation trio are Omniscient within their area of embodiment . I mean, why not, there possibly infinite universes and timelines to keep track of

Keeping track of something as a whole is not the same as keeping track of each individual atom or object.
I don't see anything in thise scans suggesting they're nigh-omniscient.

 

[Sniper670]

Keeping track of something as a whole is not the same as keeping track of each individual atom or object.
I don't see anything in thise scans suggesting they're nigh-omniscient.

It's there. "All Things", which, unironically, means all things

From PLA
"Time traces the path we tread from the here and now into the future..
While space yawns all-encompassingly, surrounding us in every direction.
You see, don’t you? The two together, time and space, comprise all creation—the universe."

So yes, they're Omnipresent and Omniscient for creating the multiverse and also embodying the concept of space and time within it.

 

[FinePoint]

It's there. "All Things", which, unironically, means all things

From PLA
"Time traces the path we tread from the here and now into the future..
While space yawns all-encompassingly, surrounding us in every direction.
You see, don’t you? The two together, time and space, comprise all creation—the universe."

So yes, they're Omnipresent and Omniscient for creating the multiverse and also embodying the concept of space and time within it.

Being omnipresent and being omniscient aren't mutually inclusive.
You can be everywhere but not have all knowledge of everywhere, or as I said, you can lack most information about your own body.

 

[Sniper670]

Being omnipresent and being omniscient aren't mutually inclusive.
You can be everywhere but not have all knowledge of everywhere, or as I said, you can lack most information about your own body.

Dialga and Palkia created the multiverse. Look, Arceus was drowsy while all this was going on, trivial matters, boring. He went to sleep once everything was done. As said in PLA, those two, Dialga and Palkia comprise all of creation.

They also predate the concept of knowledge in the multiverse. So I'm asking, what don't they know? Atoms?? They're creation itself remember?

So Uhh.... I think we should give the CT above Average Intelligence.

 

[FinePoint]

Dialga and Palkia created the multiverse. Look, Arceus was drowsy while all this was going on, trivial matters, boring. He went to sleep once everything was done. As said in PLA, those two, Dialga and Palkia comprise all of creation.

They also predate the concept of knowledge in the multiverse. So I'm asking, what don't they know? Atoms?? They're creation itself remember?

So Uhh.... I think we should give the CT above Average Intelligence.

Well, yeah, they should definitely be extremely smart since they presumably made all of the spatial laws, but having knowledge of atoms as a whole doesn't give you knowledge of every individual atom, if that makes sense.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I don't see why we are comparing bodies to omnipresence, we are not aware of out body stuff because our vision is outside of it, we need mirrors to see our skin and uh, surgery to see the inside, and microscopes to see small stuff.

Also, a omnipresent would be aware of every information around, including studies.

One thing i should mention is that the pokemon god blog goes over how the creation trio are alter egos of arceus and talks about how the lake trio have their own will, while the creation trio has arceus, meaning they would scale to it in some way, would be good to confirm this.

If it is not accepted, i think is better to not give them a rating and instead of a text about their intelligence.

 

[Arceus0x]

bumperabo

 

[Arceus0x]

bump