Pokemon intelligence and stamina CRT/Discussion

[Imaginym]

bump

What are the current focuses of the discussion?

If it's anything to do with the Creation Trio, I don't feel confident I can discuss it, since it often goes into nebulous stuff, often arguably related to philosophy, interpretation, etc.

But if it's other Pokemon, I might feel more confident trying to help.
I just don't know what of the many points in this CRT is the focus of the discussion.

 

[Arceus0x]

What are the current focuses of the discussion?

If it's anything to do with the Creation Trio, I don't feel confident I can discuss it, since it often goes into nebulous stuff, often arguably related to philosophy, interpretation, etc.

But if it's other Pokemon, I might feel more confident trying to help.
I just don't know what of the many points in this CRT is the focus of the discussion.

generally i just want your opinion on stamina and the CT if possible. If not, i guess i;ll close the intelligence discussion for them until a later date once i talk it over with the experts

 

[Imaginym]

generally i just want your opinion on stamina and the CT if possible. If not, i guess i;ll close the intelligence discussion for them until a later date once i talk it over with the experts

The experts? No offense, but who are they, if I may ask? (Also, if they're meant to be Pokemon experts, I'm disappointed in myself that I've not made myself worthy to be a peer among such "experts".)

Anyway, Stamina is often a thing that varies between species.

AP, Striking Strength, Durability, & Lifting Strength, IMHO, make sense to be comparable: Attack Potency, AKA destructive capacity is loosely just how powerful they are. 2 Pokemon that can, for example, both use some kind of energy attack & neither Pokemon gets their attack overpowered, then they are probably comparable in AP.
Likewise, Striking Strength is similar, but for their actual physical attacks; If 2 Pokemon can physically clash, they're probably comparable in Striking Strength.

Surviving someone's attack scales your Durability to it, & physics says every force has an equal & opposite reaction; Since Pokemon generally don't injure themselves from the force of their own attacks, most Pokemon can have their Durability scaled to their own AP/SS.

Lifting Strength, in clashes of such.... Well, if they can match in like, arm wrestling, or be exposed to telekinesis & squashed & stretched without being turned into a pancake with too much strawberry sauce, then scaling to LS kinda makes sense. The fact that it can resist against, & to a lesser extent, because they can survive such LS makes it clearer they should scale.


But Stamina.... How can we be confident all Pokemon of the same stage have the same Stamina? Even if they're comparable in other regards, just like the issue with Intelligence scaling, their means of fighting are so different that it might not always be a matter of Stamina. Some Pokemon might go for Poisoning or attacking at range. Some go for one fatal blow, others might go for drawn out battles, or flurries of attacks.
& some may use means other than attacking to handle confrontation, like Mind Manipulation or Empathic Manipulation.

In my opinion, the fact that many Pokemon battle in different ways makes it questionable that they'd all have similar demands on their Stamina or that they can meet those demands; A Pokemon that aims for one shots probably has a reason that it does that, for example, as opposed to going for long, drawn-out battles. Of course, there is the possibility that the reasons it does so are unrelated to its Stamina, but I believe we need affirmative evidence to conclude that it has Stamina comparable to other Pokemon, especially if its behaviour may imply differently.


So I guess....
Rather than the arguments for cross-scaling Stamina with Pokemon of the same stage, what is the EVIDENCE in favor of it?
& of course, the evidence/arguments against it, in the interest of fairness, & presuming anyone has any to present.

 

[Arceus0x]

The experts?

I meant the CT experts, aka, ProfessorKukuiForLife and Executor_N0 who made them what they are

 

[Arceus0x]

When it comes to evidence for stamina there's no clear feats besides pokemon holding on after taking heavy damage and still continuing to fight with all their might. Most can do that (we may excempt outliers such as da babies, magikarp, feebas and snorlax and slakoth)

 

[Thelastmlg]

Ah yes, they made them what they are, not you, their damn father.

 

[Arceus0x]

Ah yes, they made them what they are, not you, their damn father.

What? They basically are the reason why 2-B and 2-A are on their profiles. We can also add StrymUltra to the mix since he's the one responsible for the main 2-A revision, Kukui was defending it and has deflected any attack on it. I don't see what's the problem here.

 

[Thelastmlg]

There isn't, it was a joke

 

[Arceus0x]

There isn't, it was a joke

oh ok sorry, am dum

 

[Arceus0x]

If nobody's gonna continue arguing here then I'mma make a blog with the necessary edits from both my crts so we can begin adding em

 

[Imaginym]

If nobody's gonna continue arguing here then I'mma make a blog with the necessary edits from both my crts so we can begin adding em

I assume you have no response to the contents of my previous post in this thread?

 

[Lou_change]

We don’t normally scale intelligence and stamina for fighting each other stamina is probably fine but not intelligence as skill won’t stop the giant monster from shooting a lazer beam at you when you approach.

 

[Arceus0x]

I assume you have no response to the contents of my previous post in this thread?

wdym exactly? I ain't refuting any points either way since i generally agree with the current consensus. What i wanna hear is the thoughts about the intelligence rating for the CT (not arceus)

 

[Imaginym]

wdym exactly? I ain't refuting any points either way since i generally agree with the current consensus. What i wanna hear is the thoughts about the intelligence rating for the CT (not arceus)

The experts? No offense, but who are they, if I may ask? (Also, if they're meant to be Pokemon experts, I'm disappointed in myself that I've not made myself worthy to be a peer among such "experts".)

Anyway, Stamina is often a thing that varies between species.

AP, Striking Strength, Durability, & Lifting Strength, IMHO, make sense to be comparable: Attack Potency, AKA destructive capacity is loosely just how powerful they are. 2 Pokemon that can, for example, both use some kind of energy attack & neither Pokemon gets their attack overpowered, then they are probably comparable in AP.
Likewise, Striking Strength is similar, but for their actual physical attacks; If 2 Pokemon can physically clash, they're probably comparable in Striking Strength.

Surviving someone's attack scales your Durability to it, & physics says every force has an equal & opposite reaction; Since Pokemon generally don't injure themselves from the force of their own attacks, most Pokemon can have their Durability scaled to their own AP/SS.

Lifting Strength, in clashes of such.... Well, if they can match in like, arm wrestling, or be exposed to telekinesis & squashed & stretched without being turned into a pancake with too much strawberry sauce, then scaling to LS kinda makes sense. The fact that it can resist against, & to a lesser extent, because they can survive such LS makes it clearer they should scale.


But Stamina.... How can we be confident all Pokemon of the same stage have the same Stamina? Even if they're comparable in other regards, just like the issue with Intelligence scaling, their means of fighting are so different that it might not always be a matter of Stamina. Some Pokemon might go for Poisoning or attacking at range. Some go for one fatal blow, others might go for drawn out battles, or flurries of attacks.
& some may use means other than attacking to handle confrontation, like Mind Manipulation or Empathic Manipulation.

In my opinion, the fact that many Pokemon battle in different ways makes it questionable that they'd all have similar demands on their Stamina or that they can meet those demands; A Pokemon that aims for one shots probably has a reason that it does that, for example, as opposed to going for long, drawn-out battles. Of course, there is the possibility that the reasons it does so are unrelated to its Stamina, but I believe we need affirmative evidence to conclude that it has Stamina comparable to other Pokemon, especially if its behaviour may imply differently.


So I guess....
Rather than the arguments for cross-scaling Stamina with Pokemon of the same stage, what is the EVIDENCE in favor of it?
& of course, the evidence/arguments against it, in the interest of fairness, & presuming anyone has any to present.

To summarize myself briefly:

What evidence is there, for or against the cross-scaling of Stamina or Intelligence?
I assume you mean you have no points to present for or against either side regarding that?

 

[Arceus0x]

What evidence is there, for or against the cross-scaling of Stamina or Intelligence?
I assume you mean you have no points to present for or against either side regarding that?

not really, no. I just presented examples of pokemon with good stamina and shiz. If people think that it isn't good enough then i'll leave it be i guess.

 

[Arceus0x]

I think i do have a stamina feat. All Mystery dungeon pokemon you encounter can spend an entire day in a mystery dungeon, constantly walking around with barely any rests (only in super long dungeons) and constantly fighting off wild pokemon. At best they could get hungry but not necessarily if they have eaten well before traveling.
Considering they fight from morning to evening it means that they spend 10-12 hours in constant movement and combat and, like i said, even a random pokemon you picked off the dungeon is capable of that.

 

[Imaginym]

wdym exactly? I ain't refuting any points either way since i generally agree with the current consensus. What i wanna hear is the thoughts about the intelligence rating for the CT (not arceus)

My suggestions are to make 2nd stage and 3rd starter pokemon scale to ''Gifted' and in addition in here is support for 3rd stage pokemon in general being 'Gifted' in battle and here are the reasons:
Decidueye "It fires arrow quills from its wings with such precision, they can pierce a pebble at distances over a hundred yards." which proves his extreme skill level in terms of arrow shooting,

Is precision of its shots indicative of Intelligence, as opposed to reflexes or focus?

we've got Sceptile "The leaves that grow on its arms can slice down thick trees. It is without peer in jungle combat."

Unsure why it's "without peer". Lack of jungle bio-diversity (Hah.)? Is it meant as an implication about its tree-cutting power?
Still, I'd tentatively assume this has room for being interpreted as a Skill/Intelligence feat.

Inteleon "Its nictitating membranes let it pick out foes' weak points so it can precisely blast them with water that shoots from its fingertips at Mach 3."
G-max "It has excellent sniping skills. Shooting a berry rolling along over nine miles away is a piece of cake for this Pokémon."

Precision/Skill rather than Intelligence? Although, it is a credit to its intelligence that it focuses on weak points after finding them.

As of now we also have Dewott's "Its exquisite double-scalchop technique is likely the result of daily training, and it can send even masters of the blade fleeing in defeat".

Presumably this refers to skill with the blade, as opposed to say, making them flee because of superhuman power. Still, given the context, I'd say even if it's not ideally clear, I'd say it supports skill more than power.

Sawk "Desiring the strongest karate chop, they seclude themselves in mountains and train without sleeping."

If the training is for the strongest karate chop, it might be only strength training, instead of for skill. But to Sawk's credit, technique is a part of skill, too.

I also suggest scaling all fighting type pokemon to 'Gifted' due to the concentration of highly skilled lower stage fighting mons

Pokemon like Mankey as Gifted?

Deoxys should be naturally Gifted (Deoxys emerged from a virus that came from space. It is highly intelligent and wields psychokinetic powers. This Pokémon shoots lasers from the crystalline organ on its chest). It was also able to go toe to toe with Mewtwo so there's that.

If Deoxys has an entry saying it's highly intelligent, that's a good reason. Fighting Mewtwo, unsure if that's a basis for scaling Intelligence &/or Skill.

Ultra Beasts and those who scale from them should also be Gifted since they manhandle average fully evolved pokemon and Buzzwole stomped a few Machamp.

Is the stomping not a product of higher tiering/statistics?

Calyrex should scale to at least Gifted intelligence since it was stated to have ruled Galar at one point

Knowing how it ruled would be helpful, but I'm somewhat supportive of this.

I would also like to propose scaling ALL legendaries shown capable of speech to average intelligence at minimum since all of the ones who have spoken have shown higher cognitive ability than your average pokemon.

This seems unproblematic to me.

-------------------

Stamina.
As for stamina i believe that superhuman stamina should be added by scaling from Riolu who can do this: "Its body is little yet powerful. It can crest three mountains and cross two canyons in one night." and Bulbasaur "It can go for days without eating a single morsel. In the bulb on its back, it stores energy".
This should scale to everyone except for the likes of magikarp.

I don't have any thoughts on this part beyond the generally already established "Aren't there Stamina cross-scaling issues" sentiment?

That's my opinion on a bunch of stuff from the opening post, for what that's worth.

 

[Imaginym]

I think i do have a stamina feat. All Mystery dungeon pokemon you encounter can spend an entire day in a mystery dungeon, constantly walking around with barely any rests (only in super long dungeons) and constantly fighting off wild pokemon. At best they could get hungry but not necessarily if they have eaten well before traveling.
Considering they fight from morning to evening it means that they spend 10-12 hours in constant movement and combat and, like i said, even a random pokemon you picked off the dungeon is capable of that.

Oh right, & this.
What's the basis for the timeframe? Also, doesn't each MD game have a lore explanation that states why the Pokemon in the Dungeons become hostile?
Especially when considering such dialogue, what basises are in favor of assuming the Pokemon in Dungeons fight one another? AFAIK, whether it's just game mechanics or not, we don't see the Pokemon in MDs battling each other, rather than only the Player Character(s) very often.

 

[Arceus0x]

Oh right, & this.
What's the basis for the timeframe? Also, doesn't each MD game have a lore explanation that states why the Pokemon in the Dungeons become hostile?
Especially when considering such dialogue, what basises are in favor of assuming the Pokemon in Dungeons fight one another? AFAIK, whether it's just game mechanics or not, we don't see the Pokemon in MDs battling each other, rather than only the Player Character(s) very often.

Basis for timeframe is the fact that we start out at morning and by the time we get out its already evening and we basically go straight to sleep and we get no option to wander around or anything, suggesting that it is already late, thus making the minimum timeframe around 8 hours and maximum 12 hours.

Pokemon becoming hostile changes nothing, they simply changed their personalities and became violent. Actually i don't see how this is related at all.

By pokemon in mystery dungeon fighting each other i mean the fact that the pokemon you randomly recruit from the enemies you defeat in the dungeons can fight and travel through the dungeon with you freely in the same way that you do. Later after the main plot you get the option to play as the characters that you recruited in question and they can also travel through dungeons and they didn't go through the whole 'saving the universe and defeating your entire guild in a test' thing, unlike the main characters, proving that they are simple pokemon you recruited.

As for the evidence of them fighting, the whole point of the games is that half the jobs one can take include tracking down and combating enemies. There are weapons and healing items scattered throughout the dungeons that suggest that fighting is one of the main parts there and there's also the fact that in some occasions combat is nigh-inevitable such as monster houses which you can get cornered by, an example being you going into the next room and suddenly you get surrounded by an army of pokemon and you simply cannot escape without taking out a few to clear the path.

I get that technically you could say that fighting is not 100% always necessary, however it is an argument that can be applied to like 99% of the games. That doesn't change the fact that on most occasions you have to fight your way through. Heck, the badges you have literally work so that they save you whenever you are knocked out.

Also do note that the player characters aren't always Low 2-C to 2-A top tiers, at one point they are also average pokemon that are low leveled and aren't god slayers, they're just random pokemon that travel around and fight low tier criminals and fetch items.

 

[Arceus0x]

Even if we ignore this whole thing we still have 40-99 floor dungeons that take like a daylight cycle to clear.

 

[Thelastmlg]

What i wanna hear is the thoughts about the intelligence rating for the CT (not arceus)

If embodying and creating their aspects snd stuff is not nigh onniscience, i'm up for removing their ranting and puttign test instead, like we do to people like goku

 

[Imaginym]

Pokemon becoming hostile changes nothing, they simply changed their personalities and became violent. Actually i don't see how this is related at all.

You mentioned them fighting each other, but if the hostility makes them aggressive to only Pokemon from outside the dungeons/only the player character Pokemon, then the "fighting each other" part of the justification could be faulty.

By pokemon in mystery dungeon fighting each other i mean the fact that the pokemon you randomly recruit from the enemies you defeat in the dungeons can fight and travel through the dungeon with you freely in the same way that you do. Later after the main plot you get the option to play as the characters that you recruited in question and they can also travel through dungeons and they didn't go through the whole 'saving the universe and defeating your entire guild in a test' thing, unlike the main characters, proving that they are simple pokemon you recruited.

This helps alleviate my previously brought up concerns about fighting each other, though.

 

[Arceus0x]

You mentioned them fighting each other, but if the hostility makes them aggressive to only Pokemon from outside the dungeons/only the player character Pokemon, then the "fighting each other" part of the justification could be faulty.

This helps alleviate my previously brought up concerns about fighting each other, though.

what do you think then? Is this Peak human or superhuman stamina?

If we were to summarize the feats then it's basically:
-traveling dozens, up to 99 floors which are quite literally described as mazed
-the mazes are covered by foot, there is no transport
-the mazes are filled with enemies you have to fight constantly
-there are barely any if any at all resting points, there are like 1-2 in the largest of dungeons
-you spend 8 to 12 hours inside the dungeons
-you can clear a dungeon in that time without getting hungry
-often dungeons have hardened criminals which you have to fight
-some dungeons like zero isle have specific requirements which make the challenge way more difficult

So we have you basically go through dozens of maze-like rooms for 8+ hours while barely eating and walking constantly with next to no breaks whilst fighting off countless opponents close to you in power. Sounds like low end superhuman to me personally.

 

[GyroNutz]

All I'll say is that I strongly disagree with the current creation trio ratings for intelligence. None of them have displayed anything close to nigh-omniscience bar Uxie from the Lake Trio and Arceus. Being the embodiment of time/space means nothing in terms of intelligence without further context (as shown by other characters who don't get this special treatment) and the idea that since they embody all events that they must know everything that has ever occured is faulty (being in the world's biggest library doesn't mean you know about every book there) and disproven by the main canon (Palkia and Dialga fought each other for wrongly thinking the other caused their dimensions to clash). Uxie is the embodiment of knowledge, and is an aspect of Arceus so the llama upscales, but that itself goes against the likes of Dialga and Palkia being nigh-omniscient. If a Pokemon existed with the main purpose of being knowledge itself, knowing all things, why would it make sense for entirely separate Pokemon that embody entirely separate things to also know all things? Also I'm pretty sure that I brought this up before and the majority of people agreed on removing the ratings then.

As for what they'd be replaced with, idk. I don't remember any intelligence feats particularly but I feel like Average intelligence would be massively underselling them. Maybe Unknown could work?

 

[Imaginym]

All I'll say is that I strongly disagree with the current creation trio ratings for intelligence. None of them have displayed anything close to nigh-omniscience bar Uxie from the Lake Trio and Arceus. Being the embodiment of time/space means nothing in terms of intelligence without further context (as shown by other characters who don't get this special treatment) and the idea that since they embody all events that they must know everything that has ever occured is faulty (being in the world's biggest library doesn't mean you know about every book there) and disproven by the main canon (Palkia and Dialga fought each other for wrongly thinking the other caused their dimensions to clash). Uxie is the embodiment of knowledge, and is an aspect of Arceus so the llama upscales, but that itself goes against the likes of Dialga and Palkia being nigh-omniscient. If a Pokemon existed with the main purpose of being knowledge itself, knowing all things, why would it make sense for entirely separate Pokemon that embody entirely separate things to also know all things? Also I'm pretty sure that I brought this up before and the majority of people agreed on removing the ratings then.

As for what they'd be replaced with, idk. I don't remember any intelligence feats particularly but I feel like Average intelligence would be massively underselling them. Maybe Unknown could work?

While it might not be the most emotionally satisfying answer -Although, even that may vary from person to person- I find it hard to think of reasoning to disagree with what GyroNutz has said here.

 

[Arceus0x]

Maybe just scale them to
Unknown, at least Gifted in combat
?

 

[GyroNutz]

That could work

 

[Arceus0x]

That could work

Btw what do you think of my latest suggestion about the stamina? The one that is the most latest, it's a few messages above yours

 

[GyroNutz]

If we were to summarize the feats then it's basically:
-traveling dozens, up to 99 floors which are quite literally described as mazed
-the mazes are covered by foot, there is no transport
-the mazes are filled with enemies you have to fight constantly
-there are barely any if any at all resting points, there are like 1-2 in the largest of dungeons
-you spend 8 to 12 hours inside the dungeons
-you can clear a dungeon in that time without getting hungry
-often dungeons have hardened criminals which you have to fight
-some dungeons like zero isle have specific requirements which make the challenge way more difficult

So we have you basically go through dozens of maze-like rooms for 8+ hours while barely eating and walking constantly with next to no breaks whilst fighting off countless opponents close to you in power. Sounds like low end superhuman to me personally.

Pretty sure most long, late/post game dungeons wouldn't qualify for your average Pokemon. Even experienced rescue teams got wiped going into Magma Cavern, and team AWD couldn't get through Zero Isles iirc. Some of the smaller dungeons should be fine though. Also worth mentioning from Mystery Dungeon, numerous Pokemon kept chasing the protagonists up until Mt. Blaze. Even for the distance they traveled it seemed a significant timeframe.

 

[Arceus0x]

Pretty sure most long, late/post game dungeons wouldn't qualify for your average Pokemon. Even experienced rescue teams got wiped going into Magma Cavern, and team AWD couldn't get through Zero Isles iirc. Some of the smaller dungeons should be fine though. Also worth mentioning from Mystery Dungeon, numerous Pokemon kept chasing the protagonists up until Mt. Blaze. Even for the distance they traveled it seemed a significant timeframe.

I mean we use max level pokemon while non-max level fully evolved teams climb mount blaze and such. Either way even relatively small dungeons still take ~8 hours to clear judging by the fact that once you finish the mission you go straight to bed. Not to mention you still have to travel on foot and fight and you can manage to not get hungry either.

 

[GyroNutz]

I mean we use max level pokemon while non-max level fully evolved teams climb mount blaze and such. Either way even relatively small dungeons still take ~8 hours to clear judging by the fact that once you finish the mission you go straight to bed. Not to mention you still have to travel on foot and fight and you can manage to not get hungry either.

Actually the protagonists and Alakazam's team were the only ones able to get through Mt. Blaze, both of which were, at minimum, legendary bird tier. But the mystery dungeon stamina feats are otherwise solid.

 

[Arceus0x]

Actually the protagonists and Alakazam's team were the only ones able to get through Mt. Blaze, both of which were, at minimum, legendary bird tier. But the mystery dungeon stamina feats are otherwise solid.

Thank you. I think we've a general consensus here.

 

[Arceus0x]

Aight so as far as i understand, we've accepted the following:

-Gifted intelligence for legendaries
-Unknown, at least Gifted for the Cosmic trio
-solidification of Mewtwo's EG rating
-Superhuman stamina for pretty much all pokemon except the likes of magikarp

 

[Thelastmlg]

I should mention that the library, dimensions and other verses stuff doesn't work.

You don't know every book because you are in a single place at any time, a omnipresent being would constantly be reading every book's content and thus know it.

They didn't know it because they embody spacetime in the multiverse, their dimensions are outside of it, and the one causing it was arceus in it's sleep, who was residing in it's own dimension that surpasses spacetime AFAIR

If other verses got it rejected, that's on them, personally i disagree with not giving nigh omniscience to omnipresent beings, as long as the verse doesn't actively goes against it.

I'm fine with giving them no ranting and just a text though, no ranting below nigh omniscience fits them tbh

 

[Arceus0x]

I should mention that the library, dimensions and other verses stuff doesn't work.

You don't know every book because you are in a single place at any time, a omnipresent being would constantly be reading every book's content and thus know it.

They didn't know it because they embody spacetime in the multiverse, their dimensions are outside of it, and the one causing it was arceus in it's sleep, who was residing in it's own dimension that surpasses spacetime AFAIR

If other verses got it rejected, that's on them, personally i disagree with not giving nigh omniscience to omnipresent beings, as long as the verse doesn't actively goes against it.

I'm fine with giving them no ranting and just a text though, no ranting below nigh omniscience fits them tbh

They'd get gifted in combat

 

[Arceus0x]

Anyways, as far as i see, nobody has too many issues with what we have accepted so i think it's okay to apply.

I will make a blog, detailing all the revisions and giving templates easy to Copypaste into profiles.

I will begin revising things in a week since i can't do any of that next week since I'm gonna be generally unavailable next week.

 

[GyroNutz]

I should mention that the library, dimensions and other verses stuff doesn't work.

You don't know every book because you are in a single place at any time, a omnipresent being would constantly be reading every book's content and thus know it.

An omnipresent being does not necessarily perceive every event at once though. And yes, if no other verse gives nigh-omniscience simply for a character being omnipresent, then that's indicative of how we treat it on the site.

They didn't know it because they embody spacetime in the multiverse, their dimensions are outside of it, and the one causing it was arceus in it's sleep, who was residing in it's own dimension that surpasses spacetime AFAIR

Dialga/Palkia embody their own respective dimensions, this is shown somewhat in the anime when the red chain turns the dimensional portals into Palkia and Dialga's physical forms. Arceus' shockwaves were felt outside of their dimension as well, so there's no excuse for them not to know about it if this nigh-omniscience were true. There's other examples too, like Palkia not realizing that Darkrai was the source of spatial distortions in Mystery Dungeon EOS.

 

[Thelastmlg]

An omnipresent being does not necessarily perceive every event at once though. And yes, if no other verse gives nigh-omniscience simply for a character being omnipresent, then that's indicative of how we treat it on the site.


Dialga/Palkia embody their own respective dimensions, this is shown somewhat in the anime when the red chain turns the dimensional portals into Palkia and Dialga's physical forms. Arceus' shockwaves were felt outside of their dimension as well, so there's no excuse for them not to know about it if this nigh-omniscience were true. There's other examples too, like Palkia not realizing that Darkrai was the source of spatial distortions in Mystery Dungeon EOS.

That's textbook what a omnipresent does, they are everywhere so they perceive everything, especially if they embody matter or space.

With lack of examples and number, that sounds like whataboustim

Yes, their respective dimensions, not each other nor arceus, feeling stuff outside their dimensions doesn't mean they are omnipresent there nor know their origin, idk about mystery dungeon but i also didn't say they should remain nigh omniscient, just tyat the examples used are bad

 

[GyroNutz]

Again, non-sequtir. An omnipresent is everywhere, it doesn't follow that they perceive everything from that. And even then that argument only applies to characters that are omnipresent through space AND time, not one or the other.

Odio. Omnipresent through space and time throughout his entire multiverse, but doesn't have nigh-omniscience.

Palkia and Dialga are the space/time that make up the main Pokemon multiverse, why would they not be omnipresent there? I don't get this argument nor what you're actually arguing for tbh.

 

[Arceus0x]

I've made a template blog for the revisions I and hopefully others will help to apply. It is incomplete but it will soon be and i'll start applying changes next week since i am very busy this week.